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12:09 PM
startles Oh look! Someone else!
 
vaguely. howdy there!
How're you doing, @KitFox? :)
 
jumps a mile
God lord, you nearly killed me.
Hiya!
What's new?
 
Hmmm. Lots and little.
 
What shall we discuss in chat today?
 
The second (and last) show of my play is tomorrow. Should be fun.
 
12:12 PM
I am hopeless with topic choices. I don't know that much about writing.
 
Discussion topic? Mmmm. I dunno.
 
@Standback Wahoo! Which show is it?
 
@KitFox: It's a good old romantic comedy, P.G. Wodehouse.
Called "Good Morning, Bill!".
(I'm Bill.)
 
Nice.
Well, your life should slow down significantly after tomorrow night then.
 
Ha.
 
12:13 PM
Excepting of course the calls from people wanting to be your agent.
 
No, not really.
 
Hey, I'm just trying to flatter you so you'll like me.
 
I have an apartment to hunt for, a thesis topic to find, a daughter to potty train. I'll be keeping busy, never you fear :P
MISSION: ACCOMPLISHED.
 
How old is your daughter?
 
2 and change.
 
12:15 PM
Well, I guess that's old enough... :-P
I am happy to have boys when it comes to potty training, although I have been perhaps a bit too cavalier about letting him pee wherever he wants.
 
My wife's mother is Russian. She's been wanting us to train my daughter for about a year already - turns out that's (more) common for Russians. cuh-razy.
 
The younger will be two on Thursday, and he's been using the toilet for a year or so.
 
nice!
 
Not on his own, mind you.
And not every time, but he wants to be like his brother.
 
Well, then, we can hope for an easier time with the next one :P
 
12:18 PM
It is really funny when the elder runs over to a tree to pee, and the younger toddles after him and pulls up his shirt and grabs at his diaper.
 
LOL.
My daughter's newest shiny feature is that she's started singing.
 
Well, in my experience, the second one is easier. At least, in this case, because he imitates everything his brother does.
And luckily, his brother is well-behaved.
Oh! What songs?
 
Ever since her birthday, she goes around declaiming an odd version of "Happy Birthday," which I guess I could translate as follows:
"Happy birthday, birthday,
Happy birthday, birthday,
(pause)
[NAME HERE]!!!!!"
(repeat)
 
Awww, cute.
 
But what's really adorable is that she's been picking up a whole bunch of others.
 
12:20 PM
Our little one sings "EIEIO quack quack here quack quack here EIEIO!"
 
She knows pretty much every other word of "Row, Row, Row Your Boat,"
And many words of several Hebrew songs,
and the fun of it is how enthusiastically she belts them out :D
 
Oh, right, I keep forgetting you're not on this continent.
 
("Row, row, BOAT,
Genty Steem
MELLY!
Life deem.")
 
That is too frigging cute.
 
Hebrew has some really nice lullabies and kid's songs - for younger ages than the good English ones I know. I think it's because the words are simpler.
(This is the same reason that most lyrics and poetry in Hebrew for ages ABOVE preschoolers tends to suck.)
(You're never gonna see an Israeli Gilbert.)
 
12:23 PM
My eldest has been making up songs lately. His favorite is:
Ducks, ducks, flying through the air
Ducks, ducks, fly up to the tree
They see some squirrels
WHAT!? I *hate* squirrels!
 
:squee:
How old is this eldest?
 
Four and a few months.
 
I routinely boggle at what I know my daughter's going to be doing in a couple of years, which seems so impossible right now. :P
 
It really does go by quickly. I still think of the eldest as two.
I am so happy for the little one turning two though. It is so much fun when they start talking.
"Bumblebee uh oh CRASH! giggle "
 
YES
 
12:26 PM
"Mommy help juice!"
 
"No Abba sandals, Ima sandals! Me too!"
(Abba & Ima = father & mother)
sigh apologies, but I need to get back to work.
 
Or the one that got me recently, because I didn't realize he has been saying it for weeks..."go grr, Mommy?" "What do you want, sweetie?" "Go grr" toddles to fridge, opens it, hauls the enormous tub of yogurt down from the shelf "GO GRR!"
 
:D
 
Oh, yes, good plan. Later then.
 
Exactly so. Nice running into you :D
 
12:29 PM
Ditto.
goes back to napping
 
 
4 hours later…
4:14 PM
Hello, weekly chatters!
What topic today?
How about "Why is KitFox so awesome?"
crickets
OK, then, how about we talk about other people?
 
Aww. I wanted to talk about you being awesome.
 
Yay!
Kit iz teh awesum!
 
Indeed!
 
@MrShiny @JSB @Matt Can you join for Writers chat today?
And maybe @Robusto is around?
Matt had suggested that we discuss the differences between novel writing and graphic novel writing.
I thought that would be interesting, but since he is cycling home from work right now...
Maybe you and I can talk about something else that I think is interesting.
Well, something else I'd like to know, which happens to require your expertise.
Well, not require.
I'm just going to keep talking until you say something.
Whatever happened to Nathan anyway?
Oh, I bet @aedia would like a nice chat.
 
What's this something different you have in mind?
BRB
 
4:23 PM
When am I ready to find an editor?
 
Oooh. @NeilFein might be biased on that one.
Frankly, he might be biased in either direction :P
 
What is a typical relationship between a writer and editor like?
@Standback He will certainly have some sort of slant.
 
I'd say "when you feel you've gotten your work as good as you possibly can on your own,"
where, in this case, "on your own" includes feedback from friends, writing circles, etc.
 
But that could be because he has one leg shorter than the other.
 
rimshot
 
4:26 PM
I'd agree with Standback.
 
@Standback So writing circles are a prerequisite?
 
You also want to get an editor to do the right kind of editing at the right time.
 
What if you hate people and would rather develop a rapport with one person?
 
No, writing circles aren't necessary.
They can even be harmful.
 
@KitFox As long as that person is a good editor/beta, I see no problem with that
But you should get more than one opinion anyway
 
4:27 PM
Fish? Fish do this sort of thing?
confused
 
That's a writing school
 
spittake
 
snicker
 
@Kitfox - funny you should say that, I just watched this film about fish.
 
@NeilFein So what do you mean "the right kind"?
 
4:28 PM
If you only have one editor, you're still sort of in an echo chamber
Line editor vs. content?
 
Don't have an editor do a final edit when you need structural work.
 
What's a "final edit," though?
 
Don't get proofreading until you're really done with the book.
 
Dude, you let typos go?
 
Of course not.
 
4:29 PM
@KitFox: Everybody needs to find what kind of feedback works for them. Writing circles are one way of doing that. Personally, I go for Critters, and for individual callouts to friends of mine whose opinion I trust respect.
 
Use --- for chat strikes.
 
@NeilFein So how do you define "proofreading that shouldn't be done until the end"? Now I'm curious.
 
Writing circles can be very valuable. But I've seen writers who insist that Everything Here Is Okay because their writers group told them the book is wonderful.
 
On both sides.
 
test
 
4:30 PM
@NeilFein I like it.
 
oooh.
 
curtesies
 
Unfortunately, there's no substitute for self-awareness :P
 
Proofreading is always valuable. You see a mistake, go ahead and fix it. But when there are problems with characters and structure, maybe we should fix those first? Maybe hunting down every typo art this point is a waste of time?
 
I see your point. Yes and no; depends on the writer.
I've worked with writers whose writing is so choked with structural error that they have to start over from scratch
So yeah, fixing typos in that mess isn't worth it
 
4:32 PM
Well, with my writing, one wouldn't need to concern oneself with excessive prooofing (she stated arrogantly).
;-)
 
But for a good writer, I would even fix typos in material which might be removed. You never know how slush can be salvaged.
 
So in general, writing circles: useful or -less?
 
@KiyFox - Yes, when they're giving valuable advice.
 
Depends how square you are :)
 
I'm not terribly hip.
 
4:34 PM
So don't hula
 
But I have it on good authority that it is hip to be square.
 
AAAAAAAnd thank you for today's earworm
 
nods
So how much should I have written before I look for a circle?
And how will I know what league I'm in?
 
Baseball or football?
 
Urban fantasy
 
4:36 PM
Critters! Critters!
 
does calculations
I'm sorry but those answers don't seem to fit.
I must be asking the wrong questions.
 
Having never worked with a writers' circle, my feeling would be to have the thing finished first.
 
There are no right questions.
 
I have a really good "alpha" reader to whom I send stuff before I'm done, but we've been working together for 15 years.
I wouldn't do that with a group of people I've never worked with.
 
Definitely finish a work first. Criticism mid-work does no good whatsoever.
 
4:38 PM
@Standback That's reassuring.
 
@Standback With an occasional exception
 
Sometimes you need a mid-course correction because you're suffering from authorial arborvision
 
I hesitate to write something and then have seven people tell me that the structure is horrible.
 
@LaurenIpsum I am willing to allow for occasional exceptions :P
 
4:39 PM
@KitFox Better halfway than after you're done, yes? Less to fix?
 
@KitFox They won't see the structure until you've finished it.
 
@LaurenIpsum That's what I'm thinking.
Hmm.
 
THat's what an outline is for
 
I often wonder how many novels are written with too many "mid-course corrections" from writing groups.
 
"Here's what I have planned... does it work?"
 
4:39 PM
I've read some that seem to have no structure or purpose.
 
That's writing by committee, not a mid-course correction
 
Written at the direction of a committee, essentially.
 
GMTA
 
@Lauren - Get out of my damn head.
 
I think I should like writing by committee. I think it would make me feel frustrated and holier-than-thou.
 
4:40 PM
Clean up in here once in a while, wouldja?
@KitFox Frustrated and holier-than-thou is a good combination?
Frustrateder-than-thou?
 
Don't you like feeling superior to other people?
 
It's the frustrated part which is confusing me.
 
And I can't think of a situation in which one might feel superior in which one is not also frustrated at others' inferiority.
 
Oh, that kind. Sherlock frustrated.
No, writing by committee is like herding cats with a dust mop.
 
Oh, I work with academics. Dust mops and cats are my livelihood.
 
4:43 PM
I hope you don't have allergies. :)
 
Oh, terribly.
But hopefully won't be too much longer before I go to fully part-time consulting.
 
Mop consulting?
 
@KitFox I shall make general superstitious gestures of goodwill in your direction.
gotta run; hoping to mow the lawn before it rains. cheers all!
 
Later, Lauren.
 
Robot consulting.
It's a new thing.
Very trendy.
 
4:47 PM
Neat.
 
OK, well, I lied just then.
It's true.
Sometimes I lie.
 
Of course you do. You're a writer.
 
OK, then. I have a story, I don't know what to do with it, so what do I do next?
I know, we're all liesmiths. But that's very kind of you to call me a writer.
I feel fuzzy and community-oriented now.
 
Tell us about the story?
 
Really?
Am I being dense?
I'm working on something else right now. Is it usual to work on more than one thing at once?
Could I just skip the learning phase? Can you just insert the knowledge into my head?
 
4:53 PM
Yes.
With a hammer.
 
Thank God.
proffers head
I think I've had a little too much caffeine today.
Can you let the demons out while you are in there?
 
Just had my first cup of demons myself.
 
Efreet?
 
So what are you working on? Or do you prefer to not talk about projects in-progress?
(Which is, IMO, perfectly valid.)
 
Well, it started out as a silly scene that was going to serve as the lead-in for a funny story involving office supplies and sand.
The office supplies and sand prompt came from EL&U chat.
I needed a topic for a writing exercise. Just practicing third-person perspective, since I usually write in first-person.
 
4:57 PM
Flexibility is a good thing.
 
But as I am writing it, it seems like it might be a lot longer than I originally thought, and maybe not so funny, and now I think I should take that first scene out except that it is kind of important for later.
 
Worry about editing when you're done.
 
But I've been sharing scenes as I go in EL&U, just for fun.
 
If you decide the scene has to go, you can embed the critical information elsewhere.
 
I am trying to be disciplined about writing a little every day, but I get excited and I want to share.
Hi @Matt!
You made it!
 
4:59 PM
If that's really tough to do, you can always preface the story with something like "Ten years ago, the stapler was obsessed with the photocopier and vowed to make it his. It's been eleven years, and the copier has gone missing."
 
ohai :D
 
Hello, Matt!
 
Hello Neil :)
 
@NeilFein That's very funny, but misses the part with the sand.
Also, I am finding that I have a lot of questions about the details, and I'd like to ask various people.
Like "What might a designer and a programmer need to meet about?"
And there are things that the designer says that probably shouts "This is something a programmer would say!"
 
This is a good demonstration of why it's tough to give advice in isolation.
 
5:02 PM
And all of that is compounded with "Why am I doing this again?"
And the usual feelings of self-doubt.
 
The designer and the programmer sounding like each other and complaining about it sounds, frankly, fascinating to me.
 
for fun and profit fun!
 
(Yes, I understand that you were driving a metaphor there.)
 
Well, not really.
The two leads are a designer and a programmer.
I'm a programmer, so I can write stuff that a programmer would say.
But I can't imitate the dialect of a designer.
 
What do designers sound like?
 
5:04 PM
I dunno.
I wrote a line...hang on, let me get it.
 
what sort of designer?
 
Good question.
 
"I'd really love to chat about the new spec, but I've got a little meeting I've got to get to..."
That sounds like programming speak. Programmers talk about spec.
I don't think designers do.
@MattЭллен I guess I'm not sure of that. Macy's an artist, so graphic designer?
I can't imagine that she would do interface work, but maybe it is common for graphic designers to bleed into those roles.
 
I haven't worked with any, so I don't know.
Anyway, it feels important to me to get the language right.
Maybe I should have stuck to the service industry setting that Matt suggested.
 
5:08 PM
yeah, I've not had long conversations with any in a business context
 
I can write that shit all day.
 
I went to school with a lot of designers. They'll be slightly more opinionated than that. Also, the smug-and-superior designer thing is a bit of a cardboard cliche, but there's some truth in it.
 
"I'd love to chat about your new spec" woud make more sense.
 
But what would a designer say, instead of "spec" for instance?
Oh. Yeah. I see that.
 
5:10 PM
They'd say "spec" but in a way that made you think the "spec" was... well, they know it's important to someone.
 
But in this context, there is a new designer who has been hired to convert her web designs to mobile-compatible designs. How would you picture a conversation like that?
 
Of course, most designers are perfectly nice and easy to get along with and want to make everything look nice.
What's this designer's motivation for doing the conversion?
Why is she working here?
What was she working on before this?
Did she go to school for design, or fall into design ass-backwards?
 
The big boss decided that there was a future in mobile computing.
She is a top-notch designer.
 
What are her preferences in typefaces?
Close kerning or not?
 
I haven't a clue.
He wants to meet with her, and she's putting him off.
 
5:13 PM
Look at some design blogs and figure out what kind of design she likes. It'll help you write her dialog if you have an idea of who she is as a person.
 
He obviously thinks her work is inferior.
 
You don't need a detailed backstory, a vague one will do.
 
@NeilFein The structures would have clean lines and simple, cool colors, but would display emphasis through bold strokes.
 
There was a school of design that was all about this, I forget what it's called. But it's where the typeface Helvetica came from.
 
She has a strong preference for a single header with tripartite content, but she is not married to that configuration.
 
5:14 PM
That's helpful.
 
> "I'd love to pow-wow about your project, see if we can bring it into this century." He let out a honking laugh, "Just kidding, but seriously, shifting your designs to a modern mobile platform is going to create a lot of issues, so the sooner we get started the better."
 
Know who she is and why she does what she does. Hopefully the character will move into your head then, and she'll start writing her own dialog.
 
That's the other designer. I don't like him. But he sounds like a programmer, and not a designer.
 
Maybe he is a programmer who couldn't hack it. He did some design work and now does that full-time, to his shame.
BRB, gonna pour myself another cup of demons. With milk and sugar.
 
@NeilFein I am having some trouble with her, which surprises me. I have a smooth story for Ada, the programmer, but Macy has proven to be difficult. Which is, ironically, her character.
@NeilFein He's no programmer. Don't kid yourself. But he designs for mobile applications because they are new things, and his second-rate web designs look good on mobile.
 
5:18 PM
In the past, have you written from outlines? Or are you not an outline person? Just asking.
 
He is acutely aware of this fact, but tries to hide it from everyone by pretending he is a genius.
@NeilFein In school. For this, I have an outline in my head that I keep adding to.
 
Okay, got it.
The male designer - there's a missing piece here.
His designs are second-rate but look good on mobile devices. Why is it he's not a good designer in the first place?
Is he an unoriginal person?
Uncreative?
Or is it that he simply needs a lot of structure to do anything good?
 
Let me think on it while I stride the hall. BRB
 
Yes, I think he's uncreative. His designs in school used unpaneled layouts and high-contrast, sans serif fonts.
While they work well for a mobile environment, many designs are actually far superior, but mobile computing is so new that he is the best of the early alternatives.
If Macy were designing for mobile, she would create beautiful touchable sites.
But she works on a larger canvas, and always has.
Macy's designs are very sensual and textural. She feels the beauty of the sites that she creates and has great intuition for using design elements to emphasize the important information on each page.
Danny thinks only about function, and is locked into using color to draw attention, for instance.
He's not a main character, though maybe he should be.
Maybe I should show him a little more respect.
It does seem that I am down on all men in this story so far.
 
5:40 PM
Sounds like you've got a handle on this guy now.
 
Gah.
Macy's the real trouble.
I keep thinking that I've got her, but then...
What does she like about Ada?
It won't work if I can't find a reason for Macy to like Ada.
 
@KitFox - What if she doesn't like him, but feels that, for some reason, she should like him?
 
They're both women.
Danny is the new designer, Ada is the new programmer.
Macy is the veteran designer.
And they end up in cahoots, so she has to have a compelling reason to like Ada.
Because right now, she thinks Ada is pretty alien and kinda creepy.
 
5:59 PM
So you have characters who are feeling certain ways, and that means you can't send the story where you want it to go. What happens if you just let the characters take the story in whatever direction it goes? This doesn't have to be a problem if your original plan for the plot isn't set in stone.
 
I am kind of a control freak.
But I'll will have them talk and see what happens.
Or maybe I should just ask out the woman that I am thinking of, and see what falls out of that conversation.
 
...yes.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:15 PM
@Neil Am I driving you crazy with questions?
 

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