Please note, the question clearly states native file retention is in my contract. The retention of native files is nothing which I refrain from speaking about with clients and I am completely up front and honest about that.You're answer would imply that I'm somehow being unethical. I am not.

@Scott Well is that contract speak or is that something you are sure they understand? That is why I said the bit about how hey even changing the price on a menu is something you don't know is hard or not.

@Scott Interesting I took my car to the mechanic and asked if I could watch, and they said I couldn't be in the garage because of liability reasons but I could watch from the outside. They answered my questions and didn't charge extra. It's not their job to teach me car repair, but I think that makes me trust them more, if they give good reasons like "if something in the garage falls on you we can be sued" that is one thing, but if they are working on a car I drive and put up a black curtain for "secret" reasons that's different. Not the best analogy but I think "secret" is the wrong reason.

Sorry, I think you're either misreading or misinterpreting the intent of the question. It is never my goal to hide or be unethical with clients and I take offense at the suggestion. Perhaps you simply don't understand the term "secret recipe" it is not the same as saying things are "secretive". In addition, nowhere do I even suggest that I tell clients native files are a "secret". My question was posed to users here, it is not a transcript of a client conversation.

@Scott You should read what I say. I said that if they don't understand what files you give them and that changing even a price on a menu will be a change only you can do, because text overlaps another color or something, then you haven't been clear enough. I think "secret" is a loaded term and you asked about how to explain things, I said that is a bad way to put it for "how to explain", it should be all about the work you agree to do for the contract. If you later talk about having "secrets" then that is not about work you did. You have not addressed this but are just getting upset.

Again, you either haven't clearly read the question, or simply don't care to read the question.

@Scott I clearly think you don't read what YOU say. You said and I quoted "Now, there is absolutely value in the native files. They are my 'secret recipe' as a designer and anyone asking for that recipe should provide compensation for the ease of reusing, repurposing, and altering the recipe." The title of your question is "How do you explain the value of native files to an uneducated client?" I said this is not how (meaning talking about "secrets"), and in fact I think it is a bad spirit to have. It is about your agreement. You never addressed changing price on a menu.

I'm not saying you should give them the files. I am just giving opinion on what you should or shouldn't say in the explanation to them and this is what you asked about. You should read what I say, I read what you wrote. The only thing I don't agree with is that it is about secrets it is about the idea someone can just ask you forever for things you never agreed on, so you should nail out what you agreed on, and the end point that you focus on here is just I said make sure they understand it because your mom doesn't know what an AI file is vs. a PDF vs a PNG

I never, not ever, in no way, stated I call native files "secrets" to clients. You are misreading and getting hung up on a single word of the question.

@Cakey telling me what I wrote and explaining to me what My intentions are is ludicrous. I am fully aware of what I wrote and what I meant. You're are reading the question as if it were posed to a client. It was not. It was posed to other designers. Just because I use the term "secret recipe" with a group of designers, in NOW way means I would use the term with a client.

And frankly the implication in your answer that I'm hiding something or being less than ethical is nothing but offensive. I don't care to discuss this further. It is safe to say that I am correct when discussing what I've written and what the intention behind my writings are, and you will always be incorrect when you try and tell me what my mind is.

You seem pretty keyed up

Have a good night.

Thing is you said what you meant

You've offended me and **continue*8 to try and explain my own words to me.

Then you ask how to say what you mean without saying what you mean

That's simply condescending and offensive.

I find you insulting. Good night.

Well hm is it public record if I write it in a chat now?

I don't know

I liked it better on the question.

@Scott you left the room so you aren't reading this now?

It is fine to limit what you deliver and to tell people that is what you deliver

The only thing I said was that I don't think average people know what a file format is, so they might go yeah whatever. It depends. I don't know who you are working for but if it's Pepsi or whatever then yeah, charge them whatever you can

I hate Illustrator like I said, I prefer painting and drawing

It seems like maybe the issue you talk about is different if it's Pepsi or if it's someone smaller, and if they are smaller maybe it matters to you to explain what can change or not

I am sorry I made you so mad

But it sounded like you were saying "how do I tell people I must keep secrets" but I don't want to tell them that, I only tell designers, and want a nicer way to say it

I don't know anything what I am talking about but I just think it's cool to answer questions and people who keep secrets make me mad, and you look like you give away secrets all the time

Anyway maybe talking to people on the Internet shouldn't bring you down so hard

I didn't mean anything bad by it

But like if you ask someone a question and they go "I know but it's a secret" that would bug you right?

It would bug you if you had not paid them

You wanted to say "Hey I said this in the question I never said I'd actually say it" but that's kind of what I was pointing out is, why would you say it if you wouldn't say it public? I don't think you need to. You have an agreement and you said it was years ago, these guys owe you to make it all over again unless you said you had backups

I guess this is not anything anyone can read?

Hello?

New lesson is do not click that chat button.

@Cakey For the record, I will state once again that I NEVER TELL ANY CLIENT ANYTHING IS A SECRET. I don't know how many times I can explain that to you.

@Scott I do not challenge your record. This is really weird.

I am totally confused. I did not say anything about what you had said to your clients.

You repeat the same thing over and over and argue about reading or not reading and write lots of big all caps bold stuff. This is a weird behavior for someone who wants people to read and I put an apology that I did not mean to offend you.

I don't know how to make you less mad because if I try to explain any other way you just will get more mad it seems like.

I can already guess how to make you more mad

The problem comes from, I think, that you don't like that in your question you said off the record something about keeping secrets. I said "hey, that is not cool". Then you said "I never said that on the record". But I thought this is off the record?

You are talking about somebody from years ago and a contract, why did you need to mention secrets to start with? Anyway it is a small point.

I don't care I guess I will delete the answer

Sorry

Do not take it so personally.

Where did he say something about keeping secrets?

In the question says: "Now, there is absolutely value in the native files. They are my "secret recipe" as a designer and anyone asking for that recipe should provide compensation for the ease of reusing, repurposing, and altering the recipe."

Right, so I interpreted that as an analogy

when I go to a restaurant and order food, I would never expect to get the recipe along with the food

What if you have allergic reactions to somethings?

that is what I believe he means by "secret recipe"

that's an absurd question

Uh what?

If you think making the analogy is not absurd then the analogy is fair to criticize.

do you have food allergies?

Had an allergy test and I am a little allergic to lettuce. Weird.

Not that I ever noticed

Ok. If you have a food allergy, you don't ask for the recipe after you've been served the food. Nor before anyway, it's acceptable to ask if something contains peanuts though

If you mean to say "it is absurd because a recipe is not like a graphic design because no one has allergies to fonts" then I say focus on "it is absurd because a recipe is not like a graphic design"

You don't say "I have food allergies, I need the recipe for this"

Yes and if you read what I wrote then you can see I said it is all about business and the contract

Well you can't read it now because I deleted it

Ok, so you were confused by the analogy then.

I am not confused by the analogy. But I am just saying maybe some people you get in a contract with might not know the difference between .AI file and .PNG and how the various ways that type might be text or just outlines

Is that not the whole point of the question

I honestly don't know, this is too long for me

He is talking about clarifications after when he has a contract before

Scott's question asks how to communicate this with the client. You're right, some people don't know the difference. This question is about how to educate and make the client aware of what they're paying for

Then he says I will say to you all "I can't give away my secrets" then he says "I would never say that"

Again you're getting confused by the analogy

Scott is very talented, but I don't think he holds any "design secrets". If the analogy is confusing to you, just ignore it

It wasn't that big a deal really and this got super drama fast

I think when you are talking about non specific things then it's like arguing politics or something

I said "changing price on a menu" for instance, and only that if you make a menu for someone and tell them "sorry you only paid for the PNG file" it depends on who and how before you charge them more. I don't know to assume or not assume he wouldn't hold a menu hostage. So I can't write a message that assumes either way that he does or doesn't.

If it is more specific I could not have to talk about a potentially unspecified case. But if it's general I might have to talk about a flow plan where he hasn't made everything clear.

"If this then that" "If not that then this"

If he reads it and sees offense in an "If not" or "If" that does not apply I think that is a case of asking a question that is not specific and following a path that does not apply to you

@Cakey.. You should read that question as if the words "secret recipe" were not there... you may actually understand the question then.

You're way too hung up on one word and are not understanding the context of that word.

@Scott Well I deleted my answer but maybe if you delete that and then delete the part where I said that then it would be agreement

And based upon that, you've implied I'm not very ethical

I'm not editing the question. everyone else understood it except you.

See what I said about "If" and "Then", I didn't say anything about you and I wrote an apology

Like I say if you answer a lot of questions then I think it isn't secrets you care about

No you implied I tell clients there's a "secret". that is not what the question states. Anyway. I'm done with this. We'll just have to chalk it up to a disagreement. It's clearly not going to be settled.

Have a great day.

I settled it, I deleted it, relax

I really, really don't want to do any graphic design now, you people are cray-cray

let's refrain from potentially insulting messages. I can give you the benefit of the doubt that you were being tongue-in-cheek, but this is not the appropriate time for that.