The Frying Pan

12:00 AM

I always think "What the hell do you want us to say? Sure, eat it! Feed it to your kids!" That I'd usually eat it is usually beside the point.

SAJ14SAJ

Let Josie try it. Josie eats anything!

Hey Josie!

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska Is it? I'd probably eat it too.

I got some food from my friend-neighbour, she told me to get it from her fridge because she will be away for a while.

SAJ14SAJ

@Cerberus You are a coprophagic scavenger. I am not sure you are a good standard by which to compare.

Jolenealaska

I'm the stack canary.

Cerberus

@SAJ14SAJ I am a good standard and what most people here would do.

@Jolenealaska If you die, it's not safe?

Do you ever die? I don't.

Jolenealaska

12:03 AM

that's it!

SAJ14SAJ

@Cerberus Except for the, you know, eating #%#% thing.

Cerberus

What?

SAJ14SAJ

Coprophagia

Coprophagia or coprophagy is the consumption of feces. The word is derived from the Greek κόπρος copros, "feces" and φαγεῖν phagein, "to eat". Many animal species eat feces as a normal behavior; other species may not normally consume feces but do so under unusual conditions. Coprophagy refers to many kinds of feces eating including eating feces of other species (heterospecifics),of other individuals (allocoprophagy), or its own (autocoprophagy), those once deposited or taken directly from the anus. In animals Invertebrates Coprophagous insects consume and redigest the feces of lar...

Cerberus

I know Greek.

Oh, well, you're not an expert, you don't have the experience that we do.

Jolenealaska

To the best of my knowledge I've never even had the slightest touch of food poisoning. I'll eat leftovers that have been out overnight. I don't give it a thought. I defrost stuff on the counter, I often eat meat very, very rare, I ate street food in Seoul. I'm just a rebel.

SAJ14SAJ

12:07 AM

Just because the dog hasn't bit you yet doesn't mean it won't. With its nasty coprophagic mouth.

Jolenealaska

The one thing I'm really careful with is raw poultry. I don't know why, but poultry is in a special category for me.

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska Same here. The only times I got food poisoning—which are a handful in a lifetime—were probably causes by restaurant or supermarket-prepared food, never because of my own hygiene. You just have to smell and taste it, most of the time. There are exceptions.

@SAJ14SAJ I would never bite Jo-Jo, except out of love.

Jolenealaska

:)

Cerberus

Yeah I'm also careful with raw fowl.

Raw pork I never eat.

SAJ14SAJ

The thought of triple hickies is creeping me out.

Cerberus

12:14 AM

Except in this one supermarket microwave hamburger that I got sick from. But it was several days past its expiration date...

@SAJ14SAJ Scarf.

Jolenealaska

I don't eat raw pork, but I will eat it rarer than recommended. Not chicken though. Probably mostly because I don't care for it underdone.

Cerberus

Actually, I think the pork in that hamburger was pre-cooked.

user58869

@SAJ14SAJ why did you post this?

SAJ14SAJ

@Cerberus There should be no pork in a hamburger.

Cerberus

Oh, I want my chicken just right. I don't like it when it gets dry or tough.

@SAJ14SAJ I wouldn't be so sure, it's supermarket food.

SAJ14SAJ

12:15 AM

@Alex It makes perfect sense in context, if you know that Cerberus is a three headed dog.

@Cerberus I suspect that it couldn't be labelled a hamburger here if that was the case.

Cerberus

@Alex Never mind the cat, he's just crazy.

Jolenealaska

I like dark meat falling off the bone, and white meat just done.

Cerberus

@SAJ14SAJ Hey, it's not a European protected name, so all bets are off!

I have carrot soup. But I've eaten too much carrot soup this month already.

user58869

@SAJ14SAJ it's just that i have a phobia of insects and seeing that close up of it's face frightens me, also the stuff it's standing on... it makes me feel quite odd, i hope that it was nothing to do with preparing certain types of meal

Cerberus

It wasn't.

user58869

12:17 AM

that's lovely

Cerberus

Is it?

user58869

yes, because the idea of eating that stuff is quite unpleasant to me, i just opened up the page and the first thing i saw was that fly with the words "frying pan" next to it and the explanation from wikipedia

SAJ14SAJ

@Alex This is a high risk chatroom.

user58869

i'm actually shaking slightly

user58869

insects do that to me

Cerberus

12:20 AM

Heh.

user58869

and the texture of the feces in the image was quite startling

Cerberus

Only the kitty likes that stuff.

Jolenealaska

I think we have a couple of questions on the main site about eating insects.

user58869

it's not often that i see such images

user58869

i was thinking the other day about what it would be like to eat insects

SAJ14SAJ

12:21 AM

@Alex Perhaps if you stop talking about it, your mind will move on.

Cerberus

My brother ate various insects in exotic countries, and said they were all bland and boring.

Which confirmed my suspicions hehe.

user58869

i ate a chocolate covered scorpion a few years ago

user58869

but that's not the same thing

user58869

i dont think it is anyway

Cerberus

Haha wow.

Sure it is the same thing?

A scorpion is an insect, is it not?

user58869

12:27 AM

@Cerberus i guess so, but for some reason i'm not scared of them, never have been

Cerberus

You're insane!

user58869

ha ha

Cerberus

Scorpions are my most-feared insect. Always have been.

user58869

i must admit if i'm probably not scared of them because i've never seen one, i imagine that if i did i would move away

Cerberus

But you have eaten one!

I've only seen tiny ones.

Cerberus

12:49 AM

@SAJ14SAJ By the way, I'm not eating crazy nuts.

Or, more correctly, crazy's nuts.

SAJ14SAJ

@Cerberus I have no idea what you are talking about here

Cerberus

1:16 AM

@SAJ14SAJ Oops I meant now, not not.

You know, crazy date. He offered me some nuts from his father's garden.

Jolenealaska

2:29 AM

The new answer from the new guy on the noodle soup question. I don't really remember it, but what was so bad about the first answer that it was deleted? The second had to go, but why the first?

Nevermind...it's still there.

SAJ14SAJ

4:31 AM

@Cerberus i infer you are still seeing him. I hope this does not end badly for you.

Cerberus

@SAJ14SAJ Not yet at any rate!

We had a second "date".

SAJ14SAJ

@Cerberus How did that go?

Cerberus

That is, I was running, and my normal route goes by his house, more or less.

So I told him I'd be beneath his window so he could wave.

SAJ14SAJ

@Cerberus I am not sure that counts as a date.

Cerberus

So he did, then offered me a drink.

Haha.

So we had drinks (no alcohol), and instead of half an hour, I stayed for six hours.

SAJ14SAJ

4:39 AM

Oh Cerby, you are hooked.

Cerberus

Haha not yet.

SAJ14SAJ

Six hours?

Cerberus

Yeah we kept talking and talking.

We have this great click for some reason.

Nothing...untoward happened.

SAJ14SAJ

I don't think untoward is the issue, so much as six hours of talking.

Cerberus

Haha.

I know you do.

The thing is, he's completely normal when you're talking to him.

SAJ14SAJ

4:41 AM

I am sure.

Cerberus

Yesterday he was going to eat out at some restaurant for his brother's birthday. He was already worrying about that when we met.

SAJ14SAJ

Sibling holiday participation? You are passed hooked.

Cerberus

Huh?

The non-date was two days ago.

SAJ14SAJ

Ah, I thought you went with them.

Cerberus

Oh, no!

Now that would be crazy.

SAJ14SAJ

4:45 AM

I am glad there is some evidence of non-craziness.

Cerberus

I was just saying he even has trouble attending a dinner party with his brother.

SAJ14SAJ

I don't know what to say to that.

Cerberus

Anticipatory anxiety and such.

Even though he admitted such occasions were usually fine once he was there.

SAJ14SAJ

She is sitting with me.

I figured you needed your vicarious feline fix.

Does CB like cats?

Cerberus

Haha yay.

CB? Crazy Boy?

I'm not sure. He said something about dogs that I tried to ignore.

SAJ14SAJ

4:52 AM

@Cerberus He doesn't like dogs?

Cerberus

No he likes dogs, or something. I don't really like dogs.

SAJ14SAJ

@Cerberus There is some irony there?

Cerberus

That is, some dogs are quite OK and friendly, but I should rather not have one myself or be around one all the time.

@SAJ14SAJ Yes.

How much does your Maine Coon weigh?

SAJ14SAJ

About 16 lbs.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

SAJ14SAJ

4:54 AM

I think I calcluated that is 7.2 of those kilograms you all use.

Cerberus

That's heavy for a cat, I suppose, but not for a Coon.

Yes, something like that.

SAJ14SAJ

Her father supposedly weighted 25.

I saw a picture of him, he is one of the prettiest cats I have ever seen.

The boys are bigger.

She is a pretty good size for a girl.

She has giant paws.

Cerberus

Ah, of course tomcats (is that word even still in use?) weigh more than pussies (same).

SAJ14SAJ

Cerberus

Yeah those are large.

SAJ14SAJ

4:56 AM

Yes, toms is still a word.

Cerberus

Partly because of all the fluffy hair.

SAJ14SAJ

She has fur on her paws, but they are still big.

When she was a kitten, and her paws were relatively giant, she looked really funny.

Cerberus

Yeah some cats have bigger paws than others.

SAJ14SAJ

She likes to pet me. I think that is what she is doing, anyway. OR just put her paw on me. She doesn't realize that she has claws in them.

Cerberus

Ah, yes, some cats are clever enough to hold back their claws when they're "pumping" or "milking" your knee, but others sadly are not.

SAJ14SAJ

4:58 AM

She doesn't put them out, but they are in there and very sharp.

Cerberus

It's part of being a cat ~~owner~~ servant.

SAJ14SAJ

Sure.

Stepping on a wet hairball in the middle of the night is a tougher adjustment.

Jolenealaska

So how did CB earn his Seasoned Advice nickname?

Cerberus

Hmm never had that.

Merely bloody squirrels, rabbits, birds, moles...

And various kinds of vomit.

SAJ14SAJ

@Cerberus I don't think I am following you.

Cerberus

5:04 AM

@Jolenealaska Ask the cat!

@SAJ14SAJ Things we stepped into at my parents', thanks to the cats.

Jolenealaska

Ok...@SAJ14SAJ, how did CB earn the nickname?

Cerberus

He is in fact crazy.

If I hadn't told you that.

SAJ14SAJ

That would be the reason, Josie.

Cerberus

(The cats also liked to hide things like gnawed-at mouse tails in the Lego box.)

Jolenealaska

I've picked up that he's a bit socially different but that's it.

Cerberus

5:06 AM

Well, he suffers from certain rather serious anxieties.

Jolenealaska

Ahhh

Cerberus

So he in on an hiatus from his studies.

Jolenealaska

but one on one he seems ok with you?

Cerberus

And he is going to go to some clinic for treatment five days a week and stay the nights there, starting two months from now.

@Jolenealaska Yes, perfectly normal.

Most of it is anticipatory anxieties, I gather.

The problem is arranging a date, that's apparently very hard for him; but, once I get there, he seems fine.

Jolenealaska

Hmmm...2 months out? I've never known anyone to do that. Usually that's the kind of thing that starts today.

Cerberus

5:09 AM

Well, there is no specific urgency, apparently.

He was doing cognitive-behavioral therapy.

But the therapy was hard on him, confronting himself with his anxieties and such.

Jolenealaska

You seem to hook up by running by. If that works...alrighty then.

Cerberus

So he kept skipping sessions. So that didn't work.

So being committed to this clinic 5 days a week may work better.

@Jolenealaska Yeah it's weird. The first date was in a bar, though.

He did need to pop some pills to get there.

Jolenealaska

ah yes. Appointments like that don't work if you don't go.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Jolenealaska

what kind of pills?

Cerberus

5:11 AM

Tranquillisers.

Jolenealaska

That's not great.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Like he says, he's crazy.

Jolenealaska

Same age as you?

Cerberus

But he didn't take any pill for our last meeting.

No, he's pretty young, 24.

Jolenealaska

Well that's good.

I remember you saying that now.

Cerberus

5:13 AM

Yes. It is very well possible that he had already taken a tranquilliser earlier that day, though.

Ah OK.

But the weirdest thing is that he appears completely normal, socially and in any other respect.

Jolenealaska

That's a bit of a stretch but well within the not creepy range.

Cerberus

What's a stretch?

Jolenealaska

16 to 23 is creepy. 45 to 52 not in the slightest bit.

Cerberus

Oh haha.

Yes, I prefer my own age. But my parents also have 7 years between them...

My father even babysat my mother when she was 9 or so.

They grew up in the same neighbourhood.

Then later met again at university.

What the largest age difference you have ever dated at, and how old were you?

Jolenealaska

I've always preferred older men. Unfortunately that was also my preference while in my teens.

Cerberus

5:17 AM

Heh.

How old?

SAJ14SAJ

@Jolenealaska you have reached the outskirts of creepytown there :-)

Cerberus

Aww nah.

Okay, maybe. But who cares, if both of you enjoy it...

Jolenealaska

lets see...16 to 25 back then...46 to hmm, a healthy 60 now.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

16 to 25 is a bit creepy, but still legal, at least in most places.

Jolenealaska

just barely 16 and just barely legal.

SAJ14SAJ

5:19 AM

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska Did you enjoy your time with 25yo?

@SAJ14SAJ Gorgeous. But too young for us.

Jolenealaska

Enjoyed? I dunno. I learned a lot!

Cerberus

Haha.

SAJ14SAJ

@Cerberus Not here.

Cerberus

"I dunno" doesn't sound good?

@SAJ14SAJ Oh it's legal here.

Jolenealaska

5:21 AM

Eh, I guess I look back on it fondly.

SAJ14SAJ

@Cerberus Amsterdam is a notorious den of iniquity.

Cerberus

OH OK, that's good.

@SAJ14SAJ Iniquity? Hey, if they both enjoyed themselves...

Jolenealaska

I honestly don't know if it was legal in the jurisdiction at the time. It was in Arizona.

Cerberus

And it's legal wherever Jolene lived too.

Oh OK.

SAJ14SAJ

@Cerberus Jolene is misinformed. 16 is statutory rape almost any where.

Cerberus

5:22 AM

Meh.

There is a danger that the older partner will dominate and manipulate the younger one in a bad way, of course, but this probably won't happen most of the time.

Jolenealaska

I don't think so. 16 is legal in at least a few states...hold on, I'll look it up.

Cerberus

But I sure wouldn't tell anybody if I were 16, least of all my parents...

Then again, I probably wouldn't have done that at all.

And I would try to get a friend to break it off if he were the 25yo.

SAJ14SAJ

And alleged legality would not reduce the creepiness factor at all.

Cerberus

Mebbeh.

But both parties may still enjoy it even if it seems creepy to the outside world.

Jolenealaska

SAJ14SAJ

5:25 AM

That isn't the point. If you accept that the law has any purpose, it is because the 16 year old presumably doesn't have the judgement to make that decision.

Cerberus

Jolenealaska

Cerberus

@SAJ14SAJ Some 16yos probably don't, sure.

Jolenealaska

Lots of states are 16, including Maryland. Not Arizona.

Wow, California is 18.

Latin America...lot of 12!

Cerberus

16 seems to be most prevalent around the world...

Jolenealaska

5:28 AM

Now that's creepy.

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska Only Mexico.

Jolenealaska

Yep, Mexico.

Cerberus

I wonder why.

I also wonder about 20 in Tunisia.

SAJ14SAJ

Tonight has to be the all time nadir of creepiness in this chatroom.

MAybe we should talk about the Horned Brioche some more.

Did you eat it all?

Did creepy neightbor get any afterall?

Cerberus

Who?

SAJ14SAJ

5:30 AM

Does he know you stole his syrup?

Jolenealaska

Nope, I was good and put half in the freezer.

Cerberus

You wouldn't believe the things we have Googled at work. Those children want to know stuff about all kinds of topics, like the age of consent, drugs, terrorism...

Jolenealaska

Yes, he knows. He also knows better than to bitch about it.

Cerberus

Good.

SAJ14SAJ

Syrup-napper!

Jolenealaska

5:31 AM

He's rude and crotchety. Not particularly creepy.

Cerberus

Better. I think.

Jolenealaska

18 in South Korea, 15 in North Korea

SAJ14SAJ

Please stop.

Jolenealaska

ok ok

I got sucked into a YouTube vortex a while ago. It's a good thing I had this window open. I'd still be watching wierd-ass stuff if I hadn't seen that conversation was happening here,

SAJ14SAJ

I am almost certain I don't want to know.

Jolenealaska

5:39 AM

Probably not. I did watch a funny cat compilation. Those are always good for a giggle.

SAJ14SAJ

Real cats are better.

You can make a captain picard brioche

Jolenealaska

Bald, without horns?

SAJ14SAJ

IT would be a borg picard. The horns would be the cyborg stuff.

Jolenealaska

I just tried to do some reviewing. I can't go on. Especially close-votes. Not my bailiwick.

SAJ14SAJ

I have given up reviewing. I vote to close things that I run across naturally, but I don't do the queues any more.

Jolenealaska

5:53 AM

I looked earlier at savory brioche things. One looked pretty interesting, but whoa what a lot of work.

like this one: loavesandstitches.wordpress.com/2013/05/21/…

SAJ14SAJ

That does seem a little like overkill.

Jolenealaska

They look good, but I'm just not feeling the love.

SAJ14SAJ

I am not sure the work to flavor ratio is favorable.

Jolenealaska

I'm almost certain it isn't. What I haven't made in a while that suddenly sounds good is French Onion Soup.

SAJ14SAJ

That is always good.

But can you get Gruyere in Anchorage?

Jolenealaska

6:04 AM

Oh yeah. Cheese is pretty easy.

SAJ14SAJ

And that exotic yellow onion?

Jolenealaska

Even really good cheese, but we pay a bit more. Of course we pay a bit more for everything. Exotic yellow?

SAJ14SAJ

Crazy exotic onions.

You might have to settle for white.

Jolenealaska

Nothing crazy, just normal yellow. That almost all I ever buy except for the occasional red to pckle.

SAJ14SAJ

Pretty soon you are going to tell me you can even find potatoes up there.

Jolenealaska

6:09 AM

Yep :) We even grow them up here.

SAJ14SAJ

I don't mean giant man-eating potatoes, just regular ones. To mash.

Jolenealaska

Did you see my amazing potato picture from a couple of weeks ago? Kind of looked like something from Alien?

SAJ14SAJ

I am sure that I can go an entire lifetime without seeing oddly shaped vegetables.

Jolenealaska

That's a bit more than oddly shaped

SAJ14SAJ

I saw those but oddly shaped is not the adjective that comes to mind.

Desiccated, disgusting, dehydrated, dilapidated, and should be defenestrated.

But not oddly shaped.

Cerberus

6:16 AM

Haha.

SAJ14SAJ

Its 2:15. I really should go to bed.

Bon soir.

Cerberus

Bon jour.

Jolenealaska

Yes, it's time for me to go to bed too. Now that my computer has crashed once, that's generally a sign.

G'nigt guys.

Cerberus

And for me!

Good night!

@Jolenealaska What are you running btw.? What OS?

Jolenealaska

It's downright cozy!

Cerberus

6:24 AM

I'm on XP.

Jolenealaska

Win 7

Cerberus

And my computer never ever crashes.

Laptop?

I'm tower.

Jolenealaska

Nope. HP desktop Costco computer in a box.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Strange.

Okay, good night!

Jolenealaska

It's usually shockwave when I crash.

Cerberus

6:25 AM

It's funny how all three of us happen to have the same bedtime today.

Oh...Flash crashes my Firefox sometimes, but never my computer.

Bai! <poof>

Jolenealaska

Considering the disparity in our time zones :)

Cerberus

Indeed.

Jolenealaska

G'night. Cya soon.

ElendilTheTall

8:29 AM

Friday comes at last, the work week draws to a close. Roll on the weekend.

SAJ14SAJ

11:06 AM

@ElendilTheTall Weekend imminent; count not all the syllables; who gives bloody %@%@?

SAJ14SAJ

2:16 PM

chirp, chirp

ElendilTheTall

3:46 PM

ka-kaw, ka-kaw

Cerberus

catches bird in net

Which would you prefer, roasted or stuffed?

ElendilTheTall

stuffed then roasted, naturally

Cerberus

4:08 PM

Oh, you like it both ways.

Very well.

derobert

4:27 PM

@Cerberus I see a problem there. I can tell from the clean salad fork you have accidentally served the entrée before the salad.

Also, it appears you have provided two butter knives. That's, umm, interesting.

Cerberus

@derobert Lindy is the entrée.

And his spine is so soft you don't need a sharp knife.

And no salad.

And entrée means the course before the main course goddammit!

stamps paws

SAJ14SAJ

@Cerberus Not in english.

Cerberus

Sure it does.

derobert

4:59 PM

@Cerberus well, not in Americanish, then!

Cerberus

sniffs

It just sounds so wrong. Avoid the word entirely and say starter?

SAJ14SAJ

Starter is pretentious speak for "appetizer".

Cerberus

We have talked about this...

SAJ14SAJ

Then evidently it has come around on the guitar again.

Cerberus

in English Language & Usage, Nov 14 '13 at 2:06, by Cerberus

It seems they say starter and main course in Oxford, as I would say.

in English Language & Usage, Nov 14 '13 at 2:06, by tchrist

That’s what I would say.

Dixi haha.

I always dixi.

SAJ14SAJ

5:05 PM

I have no idea what that means.

But that tchrist person is not from around here, and is not representative of the US linguistic culture.

Cerberus

You no more or less than he.

Dixi

* Dixi — popular Latin expression, literally translated as "I have spoken". When used, it usually means: "I have said all that I had to say and thus the argument is settled" *Dixi, a company producing portable toilets * Dixi, a former trade name of the historically famous German automobile manufacturer Automobilwerk Eisenach * DIXI is an acronym for "Deep Impact Extended Investigation", part of the EPOXI space exploration program * Dixi is a rock band from Santa Cruz de la Sierra, Bolivia that was founded after the disollution of Trilogía See also * DIXY, a Russian grocery chain * Dixie (d...

Sorry to go all Wikipedia on you...

Jolenealaska

5:30 PM

I'm supposed to go to the doctor this afternoon and the car is broken down. What a pain in the ass.

Cerberus

Oh no!

Public transport?

Taxi?

Jolenealaska

Too far to walk to take the bus, to far to taxi unless the VA will pay for it.

Cerberus

Taxi to the bus stop?

Ask a friend to take you there in exchange for a brioche or confection of his/her choice?

Jolenealaska

The VA pays for the appointment. The taxi to the bus stop could work, bit still a pain. The bus picks up too far from my apartment and drops off too far from my appointment. The broken down car actually belongs to the crotchety neighbor. We share, I pay for the insurance.

The VA is my best bet, but I don't know if they'll do it or not. It's a non-VA appointment.

Cerberus

What's the VA?

A government agency?

Jolenealaska

5:38 PM

Veteran's Administration.

Cerberus

Ah.

Are you a veteran?

Jolenealaska

I get my health care from them.

Yes. Army Vet.

Cerberus

Oh cool.

You could call them up?

Jolenealaska

Twas a loooong time ago.

Yeah. I'm going to try. I just hate that kind of thing, so I'm procrastinating. The appt is pretty important and shouldn't be postponed, so they'll probably pay (I think).

Cerberus

If they say no, ask for them to pay for the taxi to the bus stop and from the bus stop to the doctor's?

As a compromise that you can keep up your sleeve.

Jolenealaska

5:43 PM

The big issue is probably not the money, but the fact that it is a non-VA appointment. I'd have to go to the VA to pick up the vouchers, then have the taxi take me to the appointment. I've never heard of anyone doing that.

But, I do need to get there.

Cerberus

Ow...

Can't you arrange the voucher business later?

Or ask the VA to mail the vouchers to the doctor? Or scan them?

Jolenealaska

No, the taxi will want the voucher at the time of the ride.

They could perhaps email them to me, but again, I've never heard of anyone doing that. The vouchers are always originals.

Cerberus

Ugh.

And can't the VA reimburse your taxi drive later?

Jolenealaska

I have no way to pay now. It's getting towards the end of the month. I can't pay attention.

Cerberus

I'd call them, explain the situation, and ask how "we" can solve the problem, "we" being you and they.

@Jolenealaska Ah OK.

Jolenealaska

5:49 PM

Yes. I'll call after another cup of coffee.

Cerberus

Good.

Jolenealaska

brb

Cerberus

I think you're good at staying friendly on the phone, right?

Jolenealaska

Oh yes.

Even if I wasn't, the VA is used to that too. It's the kind of thing though that they'll either do or not. The person I talk to will probably have no discretion in the matter.

So far no answers to my brioche WTF question. Not a lot of views either, so I can still hope.

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