The Library

2:07 AM

@JonEricson I wouldn't delete your answer (there's value there that Jack didn't incorporate, that we might want to come back to later), but I was hoping the acceptance marker could be moved. (I don't know if OP is still around, though, so if not, shrug and we can implement it anyway.)

@JonEricson I could go along with NARQ. You tried to fix it and it's better than it was, but it's still kind of puzzling and hasn't attracted any good answers.

@JonEricson if it hadn't been a new user I wouldn't have bothered either, but since we're trying to make first encounters positive, that seemed like an easy thing to fend off downvotes.

@JonEricson then that implies that you understand the question now? Is it worth fixing in that case? Up to you; you're the one with a potential answer.

@FrankLuke torah before creation (and even torah as blueprint for creation) is a rabbinic idea I've heard. Torah before God, and especially torah more powerful than God, is not something I've heard, does not sound plausible, and should be supported if the guy wants to use an assertion of it to knock Jewish scholarship.

@FrankLuke it's probably there, but I haven't looked. (It definitely exists.) The explanation I've heard is that B'reishit begins with a bet to keep you pointed forward (remember, RTL so forward is left) -- don't question above, below, or behind (before creation). That said, the rabbis do sometimes. :-)

Stack Exchange

3:07 AM

0

Q: What is this "chat with an expert" inline popup I'm seeing now, and how do I get rid of it?

On both main and meta tonight I'm seeing a "box" (inline in the page, not a browser pop-up) show up that says "chat with an expert". Clicking on it starts what appears to be a chat dialogue with "an expert" (unnamed). This isn't Stack Exchange chat but something different. There is no obvious ...

support

Frank Luke

3:44 PM

@MonicaCellio Complete agreement.

There are head scratchers I've found in the rabbinics, but even those that I recall were recorded along the lines of "so and so said X, but he was reaching."

@MonicaCellio I remember pointing that line out to Dr. Nunnally when I found it. He said, "Reminds me of when Augustine said, 'There is a special place in Hell reserved for those who ask what happened before Creation.'" I think the context on Augustine was he was frustrated from a long debate.

Monica Cellio

5:22 PM

@FrankLuke also, a point that those not familiar with the tradition sometimes miss: there is a tendency to record all opinions (from significant sources), but of course they'll disagree with each other so just knowing that Rabbi So-and-so said something tells you nothing about its actual status.

@FrankLuke Long debates (and tiresome debators) can do that to you. :-)

Monica Cellio

8:41 PM

Hey all. So far one vote on each answer on this; can we get some more input? (A couple more net downvotes on the answer in question would lower the importnace of the meta question to me, but if we can help a new user be productive instead of just downvoting him, that would be better.)

4

Q: Should this be edited out as rude/offensive?

A new user, in an otherwise-reasonable answer about Jephthah, included the following paragraph: That Jewish writers, many centuries later, wrote that Jephthah did indeed kill his daughter only shows those writers' desensitized thought-patterns, not Jephthah's. Some Jewish authorities, from in...

discussion editing specific-answer offensive-content

Caleb

@MonicaCellio I'm working on making my opinion coherent before throwing in my twopence, but seriously is -2 on a question contrasted with a +14 accepted answer not already at the level of a scream proclaiming what we do and don't want to see?

Monica Cellio

@Caleb Someboty thought it upvote-worthy, which makes me wonder. -2 on a new answer doesn't scream at me; that's the sort of thing that can change over time. If we don't edit I'll probably vote to delete, but I'd still rather we try to redeem it...

I'm being motivated in large part by discussions like this, by the way.

Jon Ericson

9:24 PM

I think this question is too listy for our site:

0

Q: Where can I find Greek and Hebrew plain text sources?

Source texts are available with software There are numerous Biblical source texts available (free, in "public domain") for download into Bible software type programs. Where else are they available? (in a plain text file type) I am looking for either 1) source files or 2) recommended method(s)...

translation hermeneutical-approaches new-testament old-testament

@MonicaCellio I just don't think the answer was worth very much to begin with and the biggest issue is that it doesn't answer the question.

That it takes swipes at a swath of scholarship is a side issue, in my opinion.

Monica Cellio

@JonEricson ok. If you and @Caleb think it's not fixable anyway, then I guess we should just delete as not an answer (assuming I'm reading you right). I still think that editing the offensive part out, as @JackDouglas did with a recent answer that was critical of Bob Jones's approach, was the right thing to do regardless, but I can see you guys don't agree. Mods, should I assume that my example (in comments on the meta question) would also be left intact, then?

Jack Douglas

@MonicaCellio I would have thought so personally. However I hope you'll give Caleb and others more time to respond/vote: you may still get weight behind your proposed approach

@MonicaCellio I think deleting is unnecessary because of the other answers: a few more DVs would be good though.

Monica Cellio

9:40 PM

@JackDouglas with a few more DVs it would be better not to delete (as you've said). This crowd is generally pretty reluctant to DV. We'll see.

Jack Douglas

@JonEricson I agree, but let's be extra nice about how we go about it: that new user looks worth the effort!

Monica Cellio

@JackDouglas I hope we will someday get to a point where we don't have to have a days-long conversation about each instance when a user posts bad stuff and then doesn't respond to comments. It's tiring. But obviously we're not ready to move past that point yet.

Jack Douglas

Pastor Bill Havanas

1

astronomy jesus job revelation

hmmm ^^^^

Monica Cellio

@JonEricson it feels listy to me too, though if he'd agree to a single CW answer to collect that list, it could be valuable. Just not as a one-item-per-answer list...

@JackDouglas is the name supposed to mean something? Not getting the reference.

Jack Douglas

no, I didn't mean that. I think most pastors are too busy to participate here so I'm just wondering what sort of answers we can expect from him

Shog9

9:46 PM

@MonicaCellio Why would you edit an answer you don't feel is valuable otherwise?

Monica Cellio

@Shog9 I thought it was (or could be) valuable otherwise, so was trying to redeem it from an obvious problem. Jon, the asker of the question, disagrees about its value, and I'm deferring to him.

@JackDouglas is "pastor" necessarily a full-time position? I thought we had some part-timers in that kind of role here. Also, isn't Bob Jones one? (Granted, his participation is bursty, not steady.)

swasheck

@MonicaCellio not in my experience

Frank Luke

@MonicaCellio I'm bivocational (has another job besides the church) so it isn't necessarily full-time.

Monica Cellio

@FrankLuke Yeah, I thought you were one, and obviously you participate here (congrats on the #3 spot BTW). I know some full-time clergy who have zero time for stuff like this, but they have large congregations to care for.

Shog9

@MonicaCellio That makes sense. I was unsure from your meta question (and answer) whether you saw value in that answer apart from the paragraph you quoted; as the GraceNote answer you referenced illustrates, it's generally not seen as a good idea to edit if you consider the entire answer to be offensive - so your suggestion that the entire paragraph should be removed (not edited) didn't quite jibe with that. If there's value in the answer apart from that section, then I could see it.

FWIW: even if you've changed your mind on this specific instance, I think you should edit your meta question to clarify that you were looking to salvage an answer that struck you as potentially valuable from a specific section that seemed to you irrelevant at best and potentially offensive.

Monica Cellio

9:57 PM

@Shog9 oh, sorry for not being clear. (I said "otherwise reasonable" in the question, but I guess that was easily missed.) I did think the answer was salvagable; still do, but if the asker of the question sees no value I'm less inclined to put in the work to fix it. All that said, though, if it's to stick around, I stand by my original edit (which was reverted), and I agree that if we're going to delete an answer anyway an edit is pointless.

Frank Luke

@MonicaCellio Honestly, I wish the church was large enough for me to be full time.

@MonicaCellio And thank you.

Monica Cellio

@Shog9 done.

@FrankLuke I wish I could pursue such a role, part- or full-time. But (demonstrably), not enough to commit to six years of full-time graduate study as prerequisite to ordination. In a different universe where I might have figured this out at an earlier age... but ah well, I can be a lay contributor to some small level.

@JackDouglas I had assumed from the timing that the downvote on my answer was Caleb's.

Caleb

10:32 PM

@MonicaCellio That would be a no. I upvoted your meta post for raising the issue and haven't voted on your answer at all yet because I haven't had time to properly review the question/answer and say anything meaningful about my opinion. Speaking of pastors being busy. Esp bi-vocational ones....

Also please consider that/this a gentle reminder that trying to second guess who votes are from is always a loosing game. There is simply no way to know nor is it constructive to try to guess, it only adds to communication issues.

3

I'm not offended or anything; and I am generous with my downvotes. I just think with as many communication issues as we have around here, not assuming we know other people's positions would be a good thing.

Monica Cellio

@Caleb understood. I look forward to your comments/answer/votes.

I did vote to delete based on the discussion in here, but eh, that expires in 2 days and we'll probably still be discussing it then...

Jon Ericson

11:01 PM

@JackDouglas I'm on step #1 of my individual steps: do nothing.

Transcript for