@Salmononius2 The second was more condensed and more to the point (precise). If you think it's so terrible, feel free to state why and debunk it.

@Salmononius2 G-d says, “if only Me they would abandon but My Torah they would observe.” Idk how you could say otherwise. Do you disagree with G-d?

(1) Where does G-d say this? (2) How do you deduce from the statement that it means to include atheist Jews? Maybe it's only talking about idolatrous Jews. (3) How do you deduce from the statement that an atheist Jew who keeps Torah is a Jew in good standing in the eyes of G-d? Maybe it's saying that abandoning G-d while still observing His Torah is just a lesser evil.

@TamirEvan I suppose your right that Jews who abandon G-d while observing Torah is a lesser evil. It is a Midrash, and it seems to be talking about atheistic Jews since it refers to Jews who abandon G-d but keep the Torah out of observance.

@Deuteronomy I don't know how to do it. How do you do it?

@Deuteronomy I removed one of the answers.

@mvs Not the Torah, it's a Midrash. See midrash Eicha Rabbah Petichta 2. It says G-d prefer you be an atheist if you observe his Torah.

@TamirEvan See midrash Eicha Rabbah Petichta 2.

It says, “if only Me they would abandon (atheism) but My Torah they would observe.”

@TurkHill If that's the midrash you're quoting, then you're quoting only part of it, and mistranslating it at that. First, the mistranslation: The text says "הלואי אותי עזבו ותורתי שמרו". A better translation would have been: "if only Me they had abandoned but My Torah they had observed". The statement is about actions they should have done in the past. ...

@TurkHill ... Second, the context: The verse the midrash is commenting on says: "say to them, 'Because your fathers deserted Me—declares the LORD—and followed other gods and served them and worshiped them; they deserted Me and did not keep My Instruction.'". Abandoning G-d [in this midrash] was in following other gods. ...

@TurkHill ... Third, even if one would concede that the statement was to include atheist Jews, the last part of what "G-d says" is: "... As they busied themselves with it, the illumination within it would have brought them back to goodness". That would mean that they would have improved their chances to do teshuvah, and not be immediately punished, but not that they would automatically be Jew in good standing, or have a share in the World to Come (as the OP seems to be asking about).

@TamirEvan The Midrash contains two parts. First G-d declares that it would be better to abandon G-d but to observe the Torah. (ie good deeds is more important than faith). The "good" here refers to moral and not in the ritual sense, for if a person is an atheist it is likely that they don't observe rituals. This is pragmatic; the essence of Judaism is good deeds. But faith in G-d is the essence of a religious life. For, by observing Torah, they may return to faith in G-d.

@TamirEvan The situation is not ideal in the first place by them being an atheist. First, the Midrash states a point of fact then what is ideal. Ideally, the midrash holds the second part, that faith in G-d is important. However, the pragmatic nature of the midrash is tolerant and can accept the unfortunate and actual situation where one is choosing between faith or good deeds and picks the latter, but that the study and observance of Torah will ultimately lead to the ideal of faith in G-d, the essence of Judaism.

@TamirEvan The Midrash allows for tolerance and optimism in that through study and observance of Torah such a person will ultimately come to faith in G-d.

@TurkHill "First G-d declares that it would be better to abandon G-d but to observe the Torah" Wrong! G-d declares that it would have been better if they had abandoned G-d but had observed His Torah ("הלואי אותי עזבו ותורתי שמרו"). "They" G-d spoke of, were "your fathers [who] deserted Me ... and followed other gods and served them and worshiped them; they deserted Me and did not keep My Instruction" (as the verse states). Where do atheists come in??

@TamirEvan The Talmudic rabbis were not historians. The midrash cited Jeremiah not because they were concerned with history. They were teachers of Torah (instruction), moral and spiritual guidance not only to Jews living in the Talmudic period but to future generations as well. It refers to future generations and it refers to anyone who denies G-d.

@TurkHill You are mistranslating the Midrash, and then taking part of it (the "abandon G-d" part) out of context, to interpret it to your heart's content. So yes. what you said there is wrong.

@TamirEvan What is wrong?

@TurkHill All your argument still doesn't explain how the Midrash's lesson necessarily extends beyond idolatrous Jews, to atheist Jews. Without that explanation, it's really just your word on the matter. It is no better than Christians reading their savior/god into biblical verses, and even Midrashim.

@TamirEvan Your missing the point. The rabbis weren't historians. They weren't concerned with history. Rabbi means teacher. They taught morals and guidance to Jews. It does refer to future generations. It refers to anyone who denies G-d.

Your reading is like Christians who want to say a certain passage (Isaiah 53) refers to Jesus when it means Israel.