The Comms Room

cole

12:00 AM

@MichaelHampton First time I've seen this box go over 4-5GB used lol

Michael Hampton

I think I want to put together some actual rackmount server hardware...if I can find a place to put it!

cole

Makes it easier to answer questions of SF with a mini-lab. Since I can test and take screenshots.

Yeah I wish I could put a server in my tiny apartment.

Michael Hampton

I do have a tower case that will accept SSI-EEB motherboards...so probably a Supermicro will go in there at some point.

cole

I was thinking a SuperMicro tower server would be ok.

Michael Hampton

Unless a nice HP falls off a truck and onto my front porch.

cole

12:02 AM

:P

Oh nice, 142 updates for Win7 -_-

Michael Hampton

Oh, did I miss Patch Tuesday?

cole

Just an old ISO lol

Mark Henderson

12:20 AM

Just on a callw ith the sales rep at a DC. I asked him "So, if you do 95th percentile bursting to 100mb regardless of our minimum commitment... why on earth would I commit to more than 1mbps?" His answer "So I get a bigger commission"

Tanner

Google can't verify that its own spam is coming from Google.

cole

look at the via

Tanner

lol I'm a tard

cole

LOL

Thanks for the laugh.

Michael Hampton

12:34 AM

@MarkHenderson At least he's honest...

Mark Henderson

@MichaelHampton Yep. Gave him points for that

pauska

@MichaelHampton why do they spell it as GiB?

Journeyman Geek

@pauska: SI vs Standard binary units? ;p

pauska

@JourneymanGeek still.. why..

Everyone who works in it uses the 1024 conversion

Journeyman Geek

@pauska: mainly so hard drive makers can sell you smaller hard drives.

pauska

12:39 AM

everyone who doesn't work in IT couldn't give a rats ass about it

Michael Hampton

@pauska For the avoidance of confusion. I don't really like it, but that's the state of affairs today.

Journeyman Geek

no one else uses it.

pauska

yes, but I'm asking why the makers of that GUI thought it would be an excellent idea to write "GiB" instead of "GB"

it's something that developers think it's right, and something that at least 80% of the users are going to "huh - what's that i in the middle there??"

Michael Hampton

12:51 AM

Because they're Germans?

Andrew

0

Q: identifying vlan packets using tcpdump

I'm trying to figure out the vlan tagged packets that my host receives or sends to other hosts. I tried tcpdump -i eth1 vlan 0x0070 But it didnt work. Has anyone tried to view the vlan packets through tcpdump before? Couldn't find much help searching the web!

ewwhite

Amazon IAM seems hard.

can anyone help me? :(

Falcon Momot

1:07 AM

@ewwhite ignore almost all the features. there's your help.

they pack it full of obsolete crap.

and give so much granularity that like

ewwhite

I'm just trying to delegate access to a specific Route53 resource for a client.

but it's almost too granular.

Falcon Momot

you can separately control permission to view the password policy and change your own password

it's way too fucking granular, and badly grouped

Michael Hampton

It's enterprisey.

Falcon Momot

lol

by which it is meant that it is designed to create work for a dedicated admin? :P

ewwhite

I manage public DNS for a lot of my clients... via Route53. I want to give some of them the illusion that they have control.

for the warm-fuzzy effect.

@MichaelHampton You could teach me a lot about being a consultant.

And managing multiple clients...

Andrew

1:10 AM

@MichaelHampton re the vlans I'm wondering what the host is and does he know if it's sending vlan tagged traffic by whether it's on a trunk port or access port...

ewwhite

because they all want to feel like they're not trapped... even though they're trapped.

Michael Hampton

@ewwhite I could teach YOU?! hahahahaha.

@Andrew Yeah, after doing a brief test at home here, I think he's seeing untagged traffic.

ewwhite

@MichaelHampton yep

Michael Hampton

Um, I don't do vendor lock-in...

ewwhite

@MichaelHampton neither do I...

but it's implicit

Michael Hampton

1:18 AM

Sure, I have control of everything, but the clients can take their web sites and leave whenever they want. I even tell them how soon after bringing them on board.

ewwhite

@MichaelHampton Right, so I think it make sense to give them access to their DNS, even though they won't use it.

Michael Hampton

Well, some things I do NOT take control of, like domain registrations.

ewwhite

so I think, "configure IAM to allow them to see their DNS zone"

Shane Madden

Interesting. When "SF has a bad reputation on reddit" guy's account got nuked, his upvote and accept on serverfault.com/questions/490615 disappeared, which caused community to nuke the post since it had a downvote.

ewwhite

yeah, I let them all do their own registrar work

@ShaneMadden Can you pass me the reddddddit link?

Michael Hampton

1:19 AM

@ShaneMadden That can be fixed...

ewwhite

@MichaelHampton and then IAM is like, "ugh, I'm going to be too granular and bitchy to allow you to do this"

Michael Hampton

@ewwhite I have never touched IAM myself.

@ShaneMadden Though honesty, that question isn't very good. If it were posted today, I'd probably smack the user for being a moron.

ewwhite

@MichaelHampton :(

Shane Madden

@ewwhite I don't think there actually was one.

ewwhite

Ah, okay

How do I tell where my iowait load is coming from?

Falcon Momot

1:31 AM

we should really stop erasing all traces of people from the site.

Shane Madden

@MichaelHampton Yeah, agreed. Leave it deleted. Just thought it was interesting that the user delete cascaded into a nuke of the question.

Falcon Momot

causes a lot of weird problems like that.

ewwhite

It's a lot o' iowait

read-heavy...

Magellan

evenin gents

ewwhite

@Magellan trying to figure out what's wrong with my NFS.

Magellan

1:35 AM

@ewwhite It's no use. NFS is Naughty By Nature.

ewwhite

:(

Michael Hampton

My PHP version is 2.2 — user3108220 19 hours ago

2

Magellan

@MichaelHampton wait wut?

jscott

A typo? Surely 5.2 would be somewhat sane.

Andrew

@Magellan I remember back at Uni discovering how insecure NFS was "hey look, let's create a local user with whatever UID and see their files!"

> I have a problem with my assignment

Homework offtopic on SO?

wow, SO is worse than us! answer voting should be locked until 15 minutes after the question has been posted.

Anyway, enough about them. Let's talk about us.

Mark Henderson

1:51 AM

Oh, also @MichaelHampton - of the three DC's I've talked to (all Tier 2 facilities) - none of them support IPv6. This latest one, the guy actually told me that I was the first person to ask for it

He said that if we go with them I can be a part of their pilot group

rolls eyes

Michael Hampton

Sure, if you're starting your pilot group tomorrow...

Mark Henderson

@MichaelHampton The guy didn't know off the top of his head, but he is following it up

Michael Hampton

I moved out of a DC and told them I'd come back when they got IPv6...

Mark Henderson

@MichaelHampton It would seem that we don't have that luxury

Michael Hampton

Yeah, Australia has shit for datacenters. Which is why half of .au sites are in Tokyo or Los Angeles.

Magellan

1:58 AM

@MarkHenderson Are there any that you recommend?

Mark Henderson

@Magellan Right now, no

We currently piggyback on a private datacenter but we're out of space there

And they haven't passed some audits our clients want

ewwhite

@MarkHenderson Equinix.

Mark Henderson

@ewwhite They only wholesale space

You have to organise your own uplinks/meetme's etc

Also their minimum space is way over what we need

ewwhite

@MarkHenderson where do you need to be?

Mark Henderson

We have three quotes: one person inside Equinix, one person inside GlobalSwitch, and one who runs their own T2 datacenter

@ewwhite Sydney

90% of our customers are on the east cost and it's the best place for them to be

Also I don't want to be hopping on a plane to do a RAM upgrade

Also I've been inside both Equinix and GlobalSwitch with other projects. GlobalSwitch were horrible with their red tape and bureaucracy.

Equinix were fine

ewwhite

2:06 AM

Equinix is usually the safe bet. Have you talked to them? You should still be able to get cabinet space. I had cabs in Sydney before through them

Mark Henderson

@ewwhite Not with them directly; only via someone who is already established in there and is reselling colo space

I'm after more than just cabinet space - I want someone to handle the whole internet side of things. Peering, routing, etc.

Michael Hampton

And IPv bloody 6.

ewwhite

ah

Andrew

@MarkHenderson do Internode / iiNet have colo in Sydney?

Mark Henderson

@Andrew iiNet do, but they never called me back so they can go fuck themselves

Andrew

2:08 AM

> Internode has recently secured a dedicated section of the world-class Global Switch data centre at Ultimo in NSW, substantially increasing our rack capacity.

Mark Henderson

@MichaelHampton yep

@Andrew When was that dated?

Andrew

@MarkHenderson dunno, internode.on.net/business/data_centres

ewwhite

@MarkHenderson I usually check webhostingtalk.com/search.php?searchid=49813172

Mark Henderson

@Andrew Ok, I'll give them a call

@ewwhite Not much traffic from 2013!

ewwhite

hah

Andrew

2:12 AM

@MarkHenderson wonder if they take referals :P

Mark Henderson

Actually I might not call them; going on holidays after tomorrow

I'll call them after christmas

ewwhite

2:37 AM

@MarkHenderson mind some substitutions?

Mark Henderson

@ewwhite ?

ewwhite

these days, it doesn't make sense to buy 1TB 7200 nearline SAS disks.

Mark Henderson

@ewwhite Oh substitutions

Yeah go for it

ewwhite

900GB 10k SAS drives are the same price.

Mark Henderson

As long as overall raw capacity is around 10TB

ewwhite

2:38 AM

you can RAID5 10K SAS disks safely...

Mark Henderson

Actually, let me rephrase; usable capacity of > 8TB

@ewwhite Yeah I was planning on RAID5ing those 1TB disks anyway

ewwhite

oh lordy

Mark Henderson

Shhhhhhhh

A calculated risk

On a budget

For DR only

ewwhite

mmhm

is that only one CPU?

Dell quotes are harrrd to read.

Mark Henderson

@ewwhite Haha no two processors

Two lines, 2nd one is halfway down

ewwhite

2:45 AM

that's weird

Mark Henderson

Yeah I flipped out the first time I got a Dell quote, thinking that they lost my 2nd processor

But you get used to it

ewwhite

8TB usable?

Mark Henderson

Yep

They also invoice for "no monitor" - uhh gee, thanks

Fuck off the "extras" - they're just free junk, except for the 24x7x4hr warranty

Oh, they quoted NBD on that...

Eh, NBD is fine. Jus tmake it apples for apples

ewwhite

I can't do: 1 Symantec Protection Suite SBE (For Windows only- 12 months)

Mark Henderson

Haha no fuck that off

That's just free shit that they think I want

ewwhite

2:50 AM

this will run ESXi?

Mark Henderson

@ewwhite Correct

It doesn't show on that quote, but the Dells have mirrored internal SD cards for the hypervisor

ewwhite

HP servers don't.

Mark Henderson

@ewwhite Does it have an internal USB port?

Either way, that's not a big deal. I can live without that.

Shane Madden

@MarkHenderson I like that feature.

ewwhite

For standalone boxes, it's better to carve a logical drive on the array of ~16GB.

Shane Madden

2:52 AM

Actually...

7

Q: Alternatives to Dell's mirrored SD card module for booting a small OS from flash?

Dell offers an add-on hardware card for some of their servers that provides a poor man's RAID1 between two SD cards (one card gets all the reads until it dies, writes are mirrored) for booting a simple OS that has very little write load to the OS storage (ie ESXi) - see here (warning: PDF link). ...

hardware storage dell redundancy

One of my 6 questions :)

ewwhite

HPs have the internal USB and SDHC ports, but they're not a good idea on a SAN-less ESXi setup.

Mark Henderson

@ewwhite Eh, an internal logicla drive is fine just as long as it doesn't carve into the 8TB space :P

(it needs to be 8TB because it will be accepting mirrors from LUNs that add up to 8TB)

ewwhite

@MarkHenderson it would. You'd have more than 8TB RAW space in my setup. Using 12 x 900GB disks

25-bay box.

Mark Henderson

@ewwhite Perfect

@ewwhite So ~9.9TB raw in RAID5 - plenty of extra space

ewwhite

HP ProLiant DL380p Gen8 - 2 x E5-2620... Is that 128GB RAM?

Mark Henderson

2:55 AM

@ewwhite Yes

I cbf checking if I should have ordered dual channel or triple channel ram

The default configuration was dual channel, but if lowering it to 120 or upping it to 144 for triple channel is the way to go...

I'm not much of a processor nerd

Michael Hampton

@MarkHenderson It's on the processor spec page...

Mark Henderson

@MichaelHampton Where?

It must have a label I don't recognise

Michael Hampton

Do I have to draw a red freehand circle?

@MarkHenderson # of Memory Channels

Mark Henderson

Fuck

ewwhite

@MarkHenderson With SAS 1TB, i could do less

Mark Henderson

2:59 AM

I'm so blind

ewwhite

price is same with 12 x 900GB 10K SAS

Mark Henderson

Quad channel RAM

@ewwhite Whatever you think is best given the use case

ewwhite

If you're open to 3.5"...

there's an 8-bay model that can use the 1TB, 2TB, 3TB or 4TB disks...

and a 12-bay option that does the same

so with 8 x 2TB 7200 RPM nearline SAS... 12TB or 14TB usable... less money

so $6000, $6500 or $8000US, depending on the setup.

Mark Henderson

@ewwhite 3.5" is fine. Dell didn't have any feasable options for 3.5" in 2U that were cost effective. I am keeping expansion in mind, which was the real reason for 2.5" - the much higher density of disks

ewwhite

but you have to buy more of them...

12-bay is the maximum for 2U

(in 3.5")

Mark Henderson

3:06 AM

@ewwhite Yeah, but at least it's not full. 10x1TB drives still leaves 6x 2.5" bays free in the Dell. Compared to 6x 3TB disks (the Dells only came in 6-bay, not 8-bay) and it's at capacity

ewwhite

the $6K solution is with 8 x 2TB disks. 4 free bays.

Mark Henderson

@ewwhite That's cool

As long as there's room for at least 2 more disks, I'm OK with that

Magellan

@ewwhite You prolly know this one. If a puppet agent reports that its certs are revoked and the master doesn't show its cert in the 'puppet cert list --all', it just needs to be cleaned out and a new one generated, right?

Shane Madden

@Magellan Yeah just nuke /var/lib/puppet/ssl.

ewwhite

@Magellan yes... the agent or server will give you the specific command to copy/paste to do that

@MarkHenderson no official quote until tomorrow... was just working through numbers

Mark Henderson

3:09 AM

@ewwhite That's fine

After tomorrow I'm on holidays for 2 weeks, so I was kind of thinking I wouldn't hear back from you until next year anyway

So no rush

ewwhite

kk.

Michael Hampton

0

Q: setting %userprofile% environment value for ApplicationPool User accounts

I'm currently running IIS 8 on Windows 8.1 Pro. This problem relates to an issue with Application Pool identities using the wrong windows temp directory ie. C:\Users\%userprofile%\AppData\Local\Temp where %userprofile% is the name of the application pool. How can I change or check the %userprofi...

iis8

I don't think that edit was an improvement...

Magellan

@ewwhite Yeah, no command. Just the error that the 'sslv3 alert certificate revoked.'

Shane Madden

So, aside from this insanity..

Why would you store the binary version?? It's an ACL in a Tomcat app.. Tomcat probably gives it the IP in a string. http://t.co/8Kk1C9Qkrh

Tweeted by shanemadden on December 18, 2013 at 6:40 PM

The other fun jira issue today, is that you configure the user directory in a file, but it also stores in a database. Swap the file (documented!) but not the database (undocumented!) config with something new, and it works to log in but doesn't let you in to the administrative areas of the app.

Java developers.

3

Magellan

@ShaneMadden yes. story of my life now.

I think Java Devs may be the absolute worst I've ever encountered about obscure need to re-write industry standard tools in their own java applets.

Shane Madden

3:16 AM

@Magellan Yeah. The java keystore is the greatest example of this, I think.

Magellan

@ShaneMadden yes. And yet they still frequently manage the screw up concurrent access to files in the host OS with disturbing frequency.

Stack Exchange

4:29 AM

Standalone Sysadmin: Google OAuth2 API - Howto (mostly)

posted on December 19, 2013 by <a id='post_author' class='fn' itemprop='name' …

Google has an amazing amount of data, and pretty much every project I'm involved in outside of my day job uses Google Drive (nee Docs) and Google Spreadsheets to store immense amounts of information. Looking at a spreadsheet isn't necessarily the best way to take in information, so it's useful to get that data out […]

MikeyB

HELLO FELLOW MISFITS

@ShaneMadden ... I'm actually siding with the app on this one. An IP is a 32-bit integer. The dotted notation is purely a human convenience.

Shane Madden

@MikeyB Then store it in just the integer form, and not the damn string form!

But I'm pretty sure when the java code asks tomcat what IP the request it's coming from, it's gonna be getting a string. Not the integer.

freiheit

4:44 AM

@MikeyB Once you're base-64 encoding the integer, something has gone wrong. And if your base-64 encoding of a 32-bit integer has padding (=) at the end, it's gone horribly horribly wrong.

MikeyB

@ShaneMadden having it in the integer form makes it easy to do operations on, whereas you see that it's storing 'localhost' sometimes. So if the app is given a hostname, it'll need to resolve that on demand but if it's given the IP it can do a quick comparison

Shane Madden

@MikeyB There's never a subnet comparison or anything like that.

MikeyB

@freiheit ... I would hope that's just the fact that it's choosing to display the integer... poorly.

Shane Madden

It's just.. checking if the IP is in the list.

freiheit

@ShaneMadden Sure,but there's multiple representations of an IP address, so the safest thing is to encode it to a common format.

Mark Henderson

4:46 AM

@MikeyB And with IPv6 you get to solve fun problems like this

17

Q: Formatting IPv6 as an int in C# and storing it in SQL Server

Under IPv4 I have been parsing the string representation of IP addresses to Int32's and storing them as int's in SQL Server. Now with IPv6 I'm trying to find out if there's a standard or accepted way to parse the string representation of IPv6 to two Int64's using C#? Also how are people storing ...

c# sql-server algorithm ipv6

Shane Madden

@freiheit Tomcat's never gonna give it to the app in different ways, though..

Mark Henderson

(been there; done that)

MikeyB

@MarkHenderson NO NO NO NO YOU STORE A BLOODY IP

$ base64 -d | od -t x1
fwAAAQ==
0000000 7f 00 00 01
0000004
$ dc
127 256 3 ^ * 1 + 16 o p
7F000001

Looks good to me.

@MarkHenderson postgresql.org/docs/9.1/static/… the INET type bloody exists for a reason, people. Sigh. Shirley MSSQL has something similar?

Shane Madden

@MikeyB That would be too useful.

Mark Henderson

@MikeyB not that I'm aware of.

But you can embed an XML document into an SQL Server field and then parse the XML document without leaving MSSQL. You know, because that's something a lot of people should be doing in their RDBMS.

Jacob

4:51 AM

Hi all

Magellan

@ShaneMadden So Tomcat's Never Gonna Give You Up?

Mark Henderson

@Jacob Yo. Thought you'd masturbated too much, your dick fallen off and you bled to death in your dorm room. Haven't seen you in a while.

Shane Madden

@MarkHenderson Hey. I've seen full SOAP packets in varchar columns, for no good reason.

Jacob

@MarkHenderson That's an interesting story... but no just busy

Mark Henderson

@Jacob Obviously

Shane Madden

4:53 AM

@Magellan Tomcat's never gonna give you 2130706433

Mark Henderson

Too good for us now?

MikeyB

@MarkHenderson Evidently he saw my advice

Mark Henderson

@MikeyB I had to google what a brillo pad was

It did not disappoint

dmourati

All I want for christmas is a bounty hunter hat

Magellan

►

Michael Hampton

5:04 AM

Debugging someone else's Python script is not my idea of a good time.

MikeyB

So... for my Reddit secret santa, one of the things I'm doing is printing out 4 different QR codes, (two have URLs to gifts), cutting them up and leaving them for the recipient to re-assemble. Am I a bad man?

Mark Henderson

@MikeyB That is very very clever

Just... don't cram too much information into the QR code so that it can be read easily if it's been a bit molested

MikeyB

5:25 AM

@MarkHenderson they shall be printed large.

Michael Hampton

QR codes have built in error correction; a percentage of them can be missing or unreadable and the code can still be scanned successfully.

MikeyB

http://osrc.dfm.io/Supermathie "Michael Brown is an exceptional JavaScripter who loves pushing code. Michael is a nine-to-fiver who works best around midnight."

"a nine-to-fiver who works best around midnight"

Yeah... actually that's surprisingly accurate.

Andrew

@MarkHenderson our timesheets do that!

MikeyB

@MichaelHampton debating whether to cut along or to sever the QR subgrids... :D

Michael Hampton

It says I'm an awesome corporate slave...wtf?

Oh, yeah, most of my stuff on github is in private repos.

MikeyB

5:39 AM

Oy. "I fucked around on my server and now shit doesn't work." serverfault.com/questions/562362/program-missing-dlls

Poor bastard.

The amount of actual garbage just shat onto the Internet just for the sake of a few page hits really is depressing sometimes: exedlldb.com/process-p/pwsvr-exe.html

Michael Hampton

@MarkHenderson It seems to be some sort of backoffice app for dentists.

Mark Henderson

@MichaelHampton Ah

I assumed pwsvr was something pervasive-related

Michael Hampton

I googled it before I commented... :)

Mark Henderson

But then I mis-read it as p`v` not p`w`

Michael Hampton

and that's the only thing that came up

MikeyB

6:00 AM

Not sure if better techniques exist nowadays, but: serverfault.com/a/562367/2101

Michael Hampton

7:08 AM

Can you really trust the recommendations of a website named unshit.com?

Iain

G'day

@MichaelHampton I was just going to comment on and v-t-v that

Michael Hampton

@Iain I have to let the community VTC stuff sometimes. Otherwise it looks bad :)

Iain

@MichaelHampton that's not entirely true you do it unilaterally frequestly

Michael Hampton

@Iain Oh, yes, I do. Probably too much, though; I think some of the regulars are coming to expect it, and they really shouldn't. I can't be here 24x7!

Iain

@MichaelHampton your moderation colleagues obviously do as other hands are even less visible on the tiller of SF than when when I was doing it.

Michael Hampton

7:24 AM

Well, then it's a good time for me to go take a break from SF and get some of my backlog cleared!

ewwhite

8:36 AM

**What Readers Found in Facebook’s ‘Other’ Folder**

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/20/what-readers-found-in-facebooks-other-folder/?_r=0

Dan

8:54 AM

@ewwhite Someone flagged one of your answers as Not an Answer

0

A: VMWare NAT releasing SYN packets from guest but not admitting SYN/ACK packets to guest

Well... Considering VMware Server 2.02 has been end-of-life since 2011, I don't know that there's any recourse if this is a bug. It's time to move away from this software. Virtualbox is a common alternative, or you could potentially go back to the even older VMware Server 1.x since it does what y...

Michael Hampton

Good god. cPanel really is a monster. It's been downloading for the last hour!

Iain

@MichaelHampton That's not sommit I expected to hear from you - I did it once just to see what it was all about and gave up

Michael Hampton

@Iain Replicating a new client's environment... we'll soon be disentangling their web site from cPanel, but first I hvae to figure out what the fuck it's doing.

Iain

@MichaelHampton it may be easier to just grab the clients web stuff and spin up a test server to throw it on

Michael Hampton

@Iain Yeah, that's easy enough, I can have the dev cap deploy it to a test server easily enough, but it's all the OTHER stuff on the server that I need to inventory and make sure it isn't actually necessary

And by getting some hands-on with it I can strengthen my position that it's shit

Oh look, Facebook is removing a privacy setting

Iain

9:14 AM

@MichaelHampton ?

Michael Hampton

@Iain I just got a mass email from FB about it

> What's changing: We're removing an old search setting called "Who can look up your Timeline by name"—but this won't change who can see what you've shared on Facebook.

Iain

I guess I'll get it eventually

It probably takes a while to send 1.1 billion emails

Michael Hampton

9:27 AM

Oh nice, the cPanel installer seems to have hung

Dan

@ewwhite Haha, crap - I have loads of messages in there

A few that were important, but aren't now so ho hum

tombull89

@Dan I noticed I had two ones recently - both people asking for help with Just Cause 2 Multiplayer. Ho Hum.

Dan

@tombull89 I found a wedding invite from 3 years ago

No wonder we fell out of touch!

tombull89

lol!

Dan

Most of it is just spam from groups and that, though

Michael Hampton

9:37 AM

OK, it's not hung, they just have a very strange idea of what "5 seconds" means...

tombull89

10:00 AM

I think I just broke the law of physics...I just downloaded something at 60 mb/s...though a 3G MiFi hotspot (according to IE's download manager)

Dan

@tombull89 Cache or, in older versions at least, it would start downloading before you clicked "Save" (If prompted) but wouldn't count that in the speed calcs