« first day (1354 days earlier)   
00:00 - 03:0003:00 - 06:00

3:00 AM
so I type in exit in the console, and instead of showing just troubleshoot and turn off your pc, it says now Continue (exit and continue to Windows 8.1)
It's not easy to get a rootkit in place without a user confirming the action.
With XP, it was too easy.
The user would run as admin, no UAC, any program run could modify the system.
Now, at least the user has to confirm those actions (privilege escalation attacks notwithstanding - those are bad, they're bugs, and they get fixed)
But to even get to that point, the attacker needs to break out of the browser.
Just rebooted it (by hitting exit and continue ...) and now it says "Preparing automatic repair"
One reason why most attacks now target the user.
@Bob like how far my car gets when the switch is OFF ? You have to GET a rootkit to have one, where would you get one? Lets see the #1 and #2 way that people get compromised.
now black screen
3:02 AM
@Psycogeek No, you don't.
But the point is - to be in a position to place a rootkit, you need to break into the userspace first.
Wait, this might actually work after all this.
To get there, you need to break through the browser first, assuming it's a malicious site that's attacking.
To get there, you need to break through the sandbox the browser places around webpages. (Or, often an indirect attack on plugins, not the browser itself...)
viruses are there because users are stupid
Those are all layers. Each one needs to be broken through to get to the next.
and they will continue to be there until MSFT and others don't build their products idiot-proof
3:03 AM
Back in Win95, those layers didn't exist. No focus on security at all.
Now, the user usually needs to actively confirm something.
Win95, visit a website and you're done.
@Bob All i said was before with win95 you knew what was going on and could control it. Sure it now controls itself for you. . . and how well has that worked :-)
So they still have the viruses, they still are compromised, but they got 10 locks, so freaking what.
@Psycogeek No, actually. You couldn't. Not at all.
Win95, the kernel was still a black box to most, if not all, people.
Visit a malicious site, you're compromised, again without knowing it (except malware in those days were usually joke or destructive...).
Now it takes a PHD or a re-install to figure out what happend.
And you wouldn't have any idea.
Now, at least you have a great honking big box asking for confirmation.
Except for the idiots who tell people to disable it.
3:09 AM
@Bob Explain to me how a Text viewer ONLY and a Picture viewer ONLY could get a virus? nooo it takes a lot of great features for that to work.
@Psycogeek Malware authors got more creative. More advanced.
But, seriously, a compromise of a Win95 machine can easily be far worse, and is far easier to accomplish, than a modern one.
You speak as if malware is all the same.
The malware itself is more advanced.
It doesn't give two shits how much you "know" is going on.
What most people are doing on the web could have stayed benign. but instead they wanted all the features, and what do they do ON the web? 99% of the time viewing stuff.
@Psycogeek What's a text viewer or picture viewer going to do without a monitor? Without a keyboard/mouse?
@Bob Basically the laptop ran out of battery and suddenly went off. When I powered it back again almost an hour later, it would stay on the Windows 8 logo boot screen for a little longer than usual and then quickly flash a boot screen before it would restart and it kept looping.
Are you using a text viewer or picture viewer only?
No, you're not.
That argument doesn't even apply.
3:11 AM
IF that was all you were using, and if you never loaded external data onto the system, sure.
Sinc then, I have been trying to make it work.
@DemCodeLines Does it work now?
Right now, there is a black screen with a cursor. Hard disk light is on, blinks sometimes but is mostly on.
@Psycogeek Attackers would still have found a way.
'course, plugins are typically terribly written. But that's beside the point.
3:13 AM
@Bob I have many programs that there could be a virus in a data file, and without a feature for running programs, running scripts, connecting to the web and all the other Stuff. how would an exploit work on that program? they found a way because they found a feature, a feature that most people did not need. Could people have lived without macros in a word program?
All of this has nothing to do with the idea that disabling core OS security measures is a fucking terrible idea.
@Psycogeek Are you fucking serious?
what the freakin' heck. It's still black screen
What percentage of peole trying to write a simple letter in Word, required macros?
Basic buffer overrun attacks.
Nothing to do with macros.
File says something is 10 bytes. It's actually 50.
Loads 50 bytes without checking. Clobbers internal structures. You've got yourself an attack.
Now, that's usually guarded against nowadays (cf. heartbleed).
But there are plenty of attacks when dealing with untrusted data.
Feature bloat does occasionally open up new avenues, yes.
@Bob Going on about heartbleed , oh wow catch of the day exploit, this is becomming highly redundant.
3:16 AM
But that, again, is not an argument for removing security from the OS.
@Psycogeek Going on about features being "bad" is better, how?
wait wait, what is the argument here?
@DemCodeLines Beats me.
that there should be no security?
I'm just responding to his rant that apparently he can create a completely secure OS either from scratch or by ripping out most parts of an existing one.
I don't deny that feature bloat opens up avenues of attack. But, at the same time, claiming that a new OS is less secure than Win95 of all things is just... I really don't have words strong enough to describe it.
@Bob Ok, explain how heartbleed effects me. You could steal all my passwords, get all my user info provided on the web, and that would get you what? the ability to delete my posts :-) Who am I even? the ability to mess up all my online acounts? Why there is no money in it, and the web is the web it is not reality, so what could they do?
3:19 AM
If you really want a secure OS, you might as well start from bottom up, not edit an existing one
that wouldn't work.
@DemCodeLines Good luck.
Lemme tell you, if anyone here tried to write an OS from scratch it'd either be absolutely useless (very likely) or absolutely riddled with bugs and holes (equally likely, if it actually worked).
@Psycogeek It's an example of an attack.
More than just an example, because it exists in the real world.
You're the one latching onto heartbleed.
@Bob Win7 is less secure for me. I was able to fully control the OS and I/O and everything up to win XP, then it got to interdependant on inter and outer connections. they started applying all that web carp internally too.
I used it as an example of an existing, severe, vulnerability affecting web browsers, twice.
That's all.
@Psycogeek Again, nonsense.
@Bob Ok then you come over here and control it :-)
Unless you wrote your HDD drivers from scratch, your FAT drivers from scratch, you had effectively zero control over their operation.
3:22 AM
Well, you just take top engineers around the world and begin :D
Unless you're reading bits off your HDD with a magnetised needle.
@Psycogeek I never made claims to personally be able to break into another's system.
I'm saying that it's certainly possible, has been done, and is still being done.
@Bob Ya think i would know if my drivers were sending out info over the wire. . . untill the wire became used for "shit i dont need"
@Psycogeek No, you wouldn't have known. Not even with Win95.
3:23 AM
@Bob And it will continue to be done.
@Bob Back in win95 the modem didnt even light up :-) at all, if the person wasnt doing something. Modems Turned OFF (what a concept) when they were not used. Gee now how is that unlike today, with wild wilrelss signals from every home running at minimum for 2/3rds longer than they are used for.
@Psycogeek There's nothing stopping you from bridging a DSL modem and turning off keepalives.
Heck, there's nothing stopping you from using dialup.
Go ahead.
Go do it.
That's got nothing to do with the OS.
dialup? come on now. That's just pushing the line
@DemCodeLines Well, it's what he's apparently lamenting the loss of.
3:27 AM
In win95 you usually Purposfully downloaded and installed stuff. not blindly did it. your 10year old kid didnt push the wrong button, and the software didnt come with crap in it.
@Psycogeek Oh, you'd be very very surprised.
The software that was commonly used on Win95 tended to break the entire OS.
lol (@ breaking the os)
And those stories of people deleting the System32 folder? Yeaaaa...
@DemCodeLines It is all about progress. bob thinks we have it, i say there "was another way" the directions chosen , even if that meets the needs of the 1% was clearly not the best way to "improve" sure we got 50 more locks for the 500 more features with the 200 more holes.
Well, it's true that more features introduces more loopholes
but at some point, you gotta settle with it
3:30 AM
@Psycogeek As a whole, you're claiming that Win95 was more secure. That's just... plain wrong.
@Bob Yea, and all they had to do was copy it back again. This isnt really security at all, this is just A) reducing user awareness B) another reason why they forced everything to be installed (even when off).
Security wasn't even a thought in the design of 95.
yeah, wasn't win95 all about the new explorer?
with start, new gui and all that?
Hopefully it results in something good
Took 31 minutes, but oh well
@Bob Security didnt require going back to the 50 teams of programmers who applied the interdependencies into the system, to figure out how it all worked or was exploited because of the dependencies.
@Psycogeek That's not even remotely true.
3:36 AM
It was zero complexity , and zero featured kind of thing. fairly easy to spot something going badly. heck the system had a hard time keeping itself alive , let alone supporting some poorly written virus .
Which car would you rather fix, the one with a 5HP engine hooked to a chain, or a Prius .
Windows is remarkably modular. It's not too difficult to trace any dependencies, not that that's actually necessary for most of the security measures (with operate at a lower level, e.g. ASLR, or a higher level, e.g. UAC).
@Psycogeek You're saying you'd rather use the former?
I remember watching Pirates of Silicon Valley and Gates would yell at his team about why they were not completing the OS more quickly, during the days of their competition with Apple computers
I'd fix the latter just so I wouldn't have to look at the former.
@DemCodeLines Movie dramatisations aren't always accurate, keep that in mind.
@Psycogeek And the malware that oh so nicely hooked themselves into the interrupt handlers? Which could be done from any program. No such thing as user and kernel separation.
3:40 AM
@Bob I would still be useing each of the OSes that i was used to and could control, but for hardware support. . . . and games maybe. I upgraded for Large Hard drive support 2 times (for example)
@Bob And the malware that now hooks itself to 20 layers of the same :-)
I am pretty sure, however, that Microsoft actually did rush those OS releases
and since each release builds on top of the code of the previous one, it probably got worse over the years
Add on top of that the incredibly huge backwards-compatibility win32 layer and it probably got worse.
@DemCodeLines It is just to bad that somone didnt get back in the garage and start again from scratch. My mac buddy tells me that the apple stuff is no different. andorid could be concidered a simplification.
@DemCodeLines Migration to the NT kernel with 2000/XP. Major kernel rewrite with Vista.
The kernel is pretty new.
Most of the backwards-compatibility stuff is handled in higher levels now.
If there were a flaw, it's still not a direct path into the kernel.
I would die to not have backwards compatability, but i can see that covering keeping the backwards compatability makes a huge layer of messes.
@Psycogeek Android is worse. From it's first line of code to last, it's a bloated piece of software and infringes on every possible patent out there, no wonder MS makes billions off it every year
@Bob Oh yeah, but that was pretty bad too. Since they almost completely re-wrote everything, but then left off mid-way because it took too long.
3:51 AM
@Bob The safety of the kernal, and the dll hell stuff that was discussed, never became a concern in MY uses. I did not need these kinds of changes. There were others who were confused by this great need, who stood around reading how nessisary it was. "oh boy i am glad you fixed that problem we never had".
@Psycogeek Good for you.
Replaced by a Side by side hell, that people cant even comprehend, and they still just re-install :-)
Windows should just automatically replace system files with default ones if they get broken. That way, Windows never crashes!
That is what i do not get about tripple redundancy , like system restore, it only actually fixed the usual stuff 50% of the time, but people started applying it like a backup. It was the same thing with seatbelt laws, the number of car injuries and deaths did not change, but people became even more unaware as more pedestrians were killed. (i am saying that people do not wake up, they just lasily adapt in the worst ways).
!!tell 15065796 wiki Windows_Resource_Protection
3:57 AM
Windows Resource Protection is a feature in Windows Vista that replaces Windows File Protection. It protects registry keys and folders in addition to critical system files. The way it protects resources differs entirely from the method used by Windows File Protection. Overview Windows File Protection works by registering for notification of file changes in Winlogon. If any changes are detected to a protected system file, the modified file is restored from a cached copy located in a compressed folder at %WinDir%\System32\dllcache. Windows Resource Protection works by setting discretionary...
@ChatBotJohnCavil Turned it off, like i have turned off similar before. why is it that my system goes for 10 years without a re-install and the people they make all this crap for still re-install ?
registry shouldn't work like it does right now
any application can modify it?
that whole concept is majorly flawed
@DemCodeLines there are portions of the registry that are higher protected. I only know because they made it 2 times harder to shut off the holes :-)
@DemCodeLines You do realise the registry has permissions (ACLs) much like the filesystem itself?
4:03 AM
@DemCodeLines did it also say "after two hours it might also have destroyed the data that was originally one it, trying to fix it" ?
So after exactly 31 minutes, it changes the status
No and I hope it doesn't do that.
the hard disk light is constantly blinking
And now the screen's black
computer restarts...
Windows boots
continues to boot...
Preparing automatic repair
WHAT THE HECK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@DemCodeLines I can get it to do that :-) because I know what i did to hose 1/2 a raid0 drive. I am no less glad that the utilities exist, but man can they f--- up if they do not know what is going on. Maybe we can find an exploit for that :-)
@DemCodeLines Another thing i am scared of in win8 the auto repair features. Listened to the (one of the) developers talk about it on a video for an hour. what those people do is sheer genius, how anyone could think it would all work right .
what are you scared about?
@DemCodeLines loosing more control
should i just force shut down it
it's gonna run at least half an hour
4:17 AM
Many times i know for a fact what goes wrong, what happened, what i did to cause it, like overclocking and all. and often windows "helping" can kill me.
But Windows was trying to be nice!
@DemCodeLines I dont know what state it is in. there are times when even checkdsk itself (the program) can get in an endless loop, then come out of it with a perfect final fixed disk.
Yeah, Windows is pretty weird
@DemCodeLines Boot into the DVD again and bcdedit it
@Bob yeah, but what to bcdedit this time?
4:22 AM
@DemCodeLines look at the output first
Last time I used bcdedit to restore the original bcd settings.
It is sounding more and more like there are accrued bad sectors, Are you going to tell us when you dropped it on its head ? :-)
I didn't drop it ;)
Told you, it suddenly went off
Maybe it was processing and writing something on the hard disk in the background and unfortunately powered off right when the hard disk was the at the position that is used by Windows for booting and all that got half written stuff over it, therefore corrupted.
@DemCodeLines The main goal is to verify it's pointing to the correct device
It's got to be, that's why the Windows logo comes up before the BSOD
4:25 AM
someone was saying that 80% of all laptops die from drops, As If they should be dying from needing a tube replaced :-)
laptops have tubes?
oh wait
never mind
just hit refresh pc and selected win 8.1 as the option. let's see what happens
That's real progress. If my computer had to have 1 million of those :-)
what the heck is that supposed to be?
@DemCodeLines a transister or a diode, from a few years ago.
Well, it's currently on a blue blank screen for longer than it used to be when it would say that the drive is locked, so let's hope something goods happens.
So apparently Refreshing the PC uninstalls all desktop apps
"A wild mouse cursor appeared. Throw your pokeball to catch it"
4:42 AM
Its a tube. An internet is a series of tubes
@DemCodeLines Weird even a Lapped install (to install on top of) usually does not remove things. so you lost all your installs anyway?
@JourneymanGeek Welcome back!
Yeah, lol. All the desktop apps leave anyways, luckily the files and folders stay
You found an internet connection?
Although, iirc, it gives you a list of desktop applications that it removed, so I guess I'll go back and re-install them
4:57 AM
It's be half an hour now...
@bob XD. For a bit. I'm on my phone, over WiFi
"The drive where Windows is installed is locked. Unlock the drive and try again." you've got to be kidding me.
@DemCodeLines I dont suppose you got a eye on the bad sectors yet? Because it would have been good to know the data number of how many sector reallocations (if any) , then to see if it changes.
@Bob It's same like it was earlier.
gah... I modded some cheat parts in Kerbal Space Program and every time I get close to bringing myself into an orbit, it crashes to desktop >_<
5:05 AM
@allquixotic That's what you get for cheating!
@Psycogeek what do you mean?
@DemCodeLines Try chkdsk on both the boot and OS partitions.
Oh yea, and try checking the SMART data too, as @Psycogeek said.
Check the SMART data first.
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