Would Christianity survive if ...

1:16 AM

@JamesT On the flip side, there would be one less religion in the world.

3:36 AM

Nope. We'd all be dead in the water. Historical Christianity has taught, claimed, believed for 2k years that Jesus (his bones included) ascended. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascension_of_Jesus The whole of Christianity and its Gospel, in a sense, hinge on the fact that Jesus' bones cant be found. Well...come to think of it...I'm sure there are a handful of denominations out there that would "survive."

fredsbend

@JackDouglas Yes, I suppose, but specifically finding Jesus' bones. Good find. I have read those verses so many times, but I did not think of them when posting that question.

What would it take for "Jesus' bones" to be considered authentically belonging to Jesus and not be a hoax? More of an archaeological question than a theology question.

@JamesT I was about to mention that there are some groups that say He was resurrected, but it was not physical or fleshly. They might be able to explain finding His bones, but I wonder how those groups explain Jesus having His scars.

@JackDouglas I don't think you explained that they way I would have, but that is okay.

I would have said that if these things ever come to pass then your average Joe Christian would abandon the faith, thinking that he and all before him were in error believing in the Christian God.

@Anonymous Not that I'm aware of. It has been switching back and forth with Islam for the fastest growing religion pretty much ever since Islam started.

@JamesT I don't know about you, but I would be shaken and not sure what to do with my life, but if there was undeniable proof that we had found Jesus' bones I would abandon the religion entirely and try to recalibrate my life. I would immediately become some where between agnostic and deist.

@CharlesAlsobrook I completely agree. The faith would not survive. Re: denominations that might survive. There are some that say He didn't even come in the flesh in the first place, so I think they even have a bigger problem. But I am unaware of any might survive this.

Anonymous

4:20 AM

@fredsbend Christianity has the gospel (which essentially just means to spread the religion everywhere); Christianity can be adapted in so many different ways that denominations can contradict each other and it would be difficult to draw out the boundaries of the religion; Christianity, like other religions, overlaps with language and culture, making the influence of Christianity difficult to avoid.

One example would be a case where a nonreligious person with no Christian family background, history or ancestry may be merely interested in Christianity, because the culture in which he or she lives is very Christian, and the person just wants to blend in.

David Stratton

5:06 AM

I gotta ask... Why? Why does this room exist? Isn't this an open Gorilla vs. Shark room? Am I being overly cynical? ;-)

In all seriousness, if Jesus' bones were discovered, I think that there would be an awful lot of debate over the validity of the find and the most faithful would simply deny the validity of the claims.

then there would be others that claim His resurrection was "merely metaphorical". And others would come up with theories that try to blend the two views.

fredsbend

5:59 AM

@Anonymous Especially with a user name like 'Anonymous' ;)

Aside from that, I'm not sure of the point you are making.

Maybe that you think Christianity could survive if Jesus' bones were found?

fredsbend

6:16 AM

@DavidStratton Maybe not overly cynical, but certainly inaccurate. This is not a question on the site. It's just a chat room, which are usually just a place to waste time. I made the room for three reasons.

David Stratton

@fredsbend - no worries. I posted that with a smile on my face. I'm sure that Christianity will survive. God's Word is True.

fredsbend

1) To look at Christianity in a secular light. Or better, to force us to look at in a secular light.

David Stratton

Nothing wrong with a hypothetical diversion.

fredsbend

2) To explore a giant's "weakness".

3) For fun.

I did actually miss the smiley. It was split on a line break on my screen.

@DavidStratton In the real world, I completely agree. No matter how good the evidence, I think most Christians would simply deny that they are Jesus' bones.

But, if in some way there was absolute certainty, I don't think we could maintain faith and claim to be rational thinkers. Even our own theology drastically falls short of reality.

In this scenario.

@DavidStratton In addition to that, there would be a bittersweet for both sides. Finding Jesus' bones would mean proof that Jesus existed. Some people would just hate to admit that, even though it would also mean likely death for the religion. Likewise, Christians would be thrilled at the proof that Jesus existed, but not this proof.

@DavidStratton How do you see that playing out? I'm having trouble seeing what this theology looks like.

Charles Alsobrook

1:49 PM

Of course if Mary's bones are ever found then Catholics/Orthodox would be dead in the water :)

@David Stratton I agree with you. It is perhaps comparable to the creation account debate. Todays scientist claim that "evidence" shows that the universe is much older than a literal 24/7 creation contingency of roughly 6000 yrs while YEC'ers cling to the literalist position. Its possible that archeologists could claim that there is "evidence" of Our Lord and Saviors bones on Earth...but some/most?? would

cling to the 2000 traditional position. The major and crucial difference would be that salvation itself rests upon the resurrection whereas the creation account has virtually nothing to do with going to heaven imho

Also another difference would obviously be that science doesn't necessarily discredit Genesis whereas archeology would destroy the New Testaments credibility.

I would probably become Jewish and wait on the Messiah again lol

TRiG

4:02 PM

@fredsbend I'm pretty confident that some forms of Christianity would survive the discovery of Jesus' bones.

James T

Here is another question. Many SF works explore the idea that human minds can be stored, copied, and placed into new bodies. Richard Morgan's Altered Carbon is the concrete example I'm thinking about: as long as the technology keeps working, you can be effectively immortal. If you die then you can be restored from your last save point, like a video game character.

WOULD CHRISTIANITY SURVIVE IF... you could be restored from backup whenever you die?

TRiG

> I haven't lost my mind: it's backed up on a disk somewhere.

^^ A T-shirt my mother bought for me.

James T

haha!

TRiG

My mother knows me well. ;)

fredsbend

5:27 PM

@JamesT No, it would not. Interesting idea, but basically, you are asking if Christianity would survive if we could live forever. I always go to the fountain of youth kind of thing when I think of living forever.

Maybe those are more different then my first thought.

It is obvious that machines are not natural. I'm not sure living in a machine forever would be worth it. There is so much to be said about having a body. I think there would at least be some Christians who would prefer to die and live with God later than live artificially in a machine now.

Conversely, if there was a fountain of youth, our bodies would not decay. There would be no death. The wages of sin would mean nothing. The NT would have nothing to promise you. Eternal life? Don't need that. I already live forever. Wages of sin is death? Looks like we cheated somebody out of their pay.

So, would Christianity survive if you could gain immortality through machinery and computers. I actually think it would; and somewhat successfully too.

Idk about if there was a fountain of youth.

[not trying to upstage your question]

WOULD CHRISTIANITY SURVIVE IF ... we found the fountain of youth?

@TRiG Yeah, in reality, all evidence for any historical event is somewhat inconclusive. There would definitely be some Christians that would simply deny they were Jesus' bones, no matter how convincing the evidence. In short, there is no such thing as "undeniable evidence."

@CharlesAlsobrook Excellent point! The Catholics would have a hard time with that. But does Catholicism vitally hinge of the doctrines they have made about Mary?

Actually, Catholicism, I think, vitally hinges on all doctrines it holds. It is supposed to be infallible. If any one of their doctrines were proven wrong then all of their doctrines would be suspect.

Maybe that's not any different than any other. I think it's just that people get a bad taste in their mouth when people or organizations act like or even say that they are always right.

@TRiG That is excellent. I would wear that at least four times a week.

fredsbend

7:09 PM

This has to be coincidence.

0

Q: Would aliens invalidate Christianity as we know it?

If we discover other intelligent life forms in the universe, would this change Christianity in any way or not? For the sake of the argument, let's presume we will find human-like life in a newly discovered planet in our solar system.

humanity

Obviously off-topic for the main site.

Anonymous

8:42 PM

@fredsbend No, I think that it is not important for Christianity to survive. There are plenty of religions to choose from. :)

@CharlesAlsobrook Actually, I'd suggest that you remain a Gentile and abide by the Noahide laws. :)

@fredsbend Death is not necessarily a bad thing. It may just be a way for Mother Nature to overcome human overpopulation of the Earth. The Earth has finite space with finite resources. If all the resources were used up, then there would be no more. You have to make a sacrifice either way: either you live long and never procreate or live briefly but fruitfully. :)

fredsbend

10:25 PM

@Anonymous I have some problems with that explanation of why we die.

First, it attempts to give a naturalist explanation, but it fails to actually speak about nature.

Second, it makes "mother nature" out to be a real thing instead of a cliche that simply refers to nature. Mother nature does not think, plan, react, or do anything.

If you were to give a naturalist explanation for why we die you should probably try to give a reason about why it is evolutionarily advantageous to the species.

That has issues, though. There are cells in our bodies that are immortal. They will divide in perpetuity so long as they are nourished. Yet there are other cells in our bodies that experience apoptosis; usually in under 100 divisions.

@Anonymous You could procreate. It would just have to be enough to cover those who would still die from injury and disease (or even suicide).

> The evolutionary origin of senescence remains a fundamental unsolved problem in biology.

Evolution of ageing

Enquiry into the evolution of ageing aims to explain why almost all living things weaken and die with age. There is not yet agreement in the scientific community on a single answer. The evolutionary origin of senescence remains a fundamental unsolved problem in biology. Historically, ageing was first likened to "wear and tear": living bodies get weaker just as with use a knife's edge becomes dulled or with exposure to air and moisture iron objects rust. But this idea was discredited in the 19th century when the second law of thermodynamics was formalized. Entropy (disorder) must in...

Maybe this would be good in the Creation vs. room.

fredsbend

10:48 PM

> One of the core ideas of the Principia Cybernetica ethics is that "cybernetic" immortality is an essential long-term goal we (or evolution) should strive for.

From: pespmc1.vub.ac.be/EVOLAGE.html

fredsbend

11:02 PM

> The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1 Corinthians 15:23-26 (NIV)

If we destroy it first, yet there still exists "enemies of God" then this casts serious doubt on Paul and the NT.

And again

> When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 1 Corinthians 15:54-55 (NIV)

This article is very interesting and sheds light on the current what if. biologos.org/blog/southern-baptist-voices-evolution-and-death

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Would Christianity survive if ...