The Upper Room - 2014-04-24

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7:04 AM

@PaulVargas here is the link: awmi.net/tv/2010/week14 I don't think there are any miracles in the videos but you do see testimonies of people who [claim to] have been healed by him.

@PaulVargas but then he also says things like, "God wants you to be prosperous" which sets off a red flag for me. (I think God wants to bless us, but materially is only one way).

6 hours later…

12:40 PM

Prosperity theology

Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, or the gospel of success) is a Christian religious doctrine that financial blessing is the will of God for Christians, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to Christian ministries will always increase one's material wealth. Based on non-traditional interpretations of the Bible, often with emphasis on the Book of Malachi, the doctrine views the Bible as a contract between God and humans: if humans have faith in God, he will deliver his promises of security and prosperity. Confessing...

2 hours later…

2:28 PM

@PaulVargas I think this is where secular humanism works. Secular humanism basically says that you should use reason to make decisions. Giving money away to ministries or whatever hoping for material success is just wishful thinking and superstition.

@Anonymous The main problem with many preachers is an incorrect interpretation of the Scriptures. Texts, whose original audience was Israel are used. For example, Malachi. It does not apply to the Church.

I don't know if you can understand my point of view.

2:55 PM

@PaulVargas you are far less cynical than me

I'll come right out and say that I think many of the "prosperity gospel" folks aren't fooling themselves, but rather see it as a way to make money themselves. Not all of them I'm sure, but it doesn't take a lot of effort to see clearly that prosperity gospel is full of things we can't mention within the bounds of this chat rooms rules

so either they are idiots, lazy or intentionally corrupt

@AJHenderson Did I say something offensive?

@PaulVargas no

I was just commenting on your statement that "the problem with many preachers is an incorrect interpretation of scriptures"

I was expressing that I'm more cynical that some (many in certain veins of theology) may intentionally misrepresent

rather than simply being mistaken

@AJHenderson Oh! Certainly, they can not escape. They will give account. The only thing I can do is pray for them.

@AJHenderson They distort the Scriptures for their own benefit. Become rich. It is very sad.

3:10 PM

@AJHenderson full of what things?

@AJHenderson Were you going to say a trail of curse words?

3:22 PM

@Anonymous not necessarily a string, but certainly a few choice words could fill the blank

3:42 PM

@AJHenderson Do you curse? How often do you curse?

@AJHenderson How do you feel after you curse? How does cursing make you feel?

@Anonymous I have no problem with "curse words" they are just words. I only avoid using "God" or "Jesus" or similar to that in vain, but other words are just words

if the word is impolite for a context, then I avoid it for reasons of politeness but not because I somehow feel that usage of the words is bad, just because I'm following the social convention

@AJHenderson So, you would never say, "Goddammit!"

correct

@AJHenderson And you would never say "Oh, for Chrissakes!"

correct

3:47 PM

@AJHenderson Hmmm... I would think that curse words related to sex would be more vulgar than words related to blasphemy.

> You must let no unwholesome word come out of your mouth, but only what is beneficial for the building up of the one in need, that it may give grace to those who hear. (Ephesians 4:29 NET)

@AJHenderson I think social norms are a good thing.

29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

given the context, it is talking about your speach being beneficial rather than destructive. Telling someone (rightfully) that they are full of s... can be beneficial

@AJHenderson So, if you don't think that curses have power, then do you think then that blessings have power?

I don't think curses have power

well

I should clarify that

I don't think the use of curse words is a curse

3:51 PM

@AJHenderson So, you're going for the intention.

and I'm not sure that people can actually curse anything unless God allows it, there are certainly instances of curses described in scripture

I think the characterization of curse words as curses is fundamentally incorrect

they are strong language sure

but sometimes strong meaning is intended

@AJHenderson But "God damn it" may be short for "May God damn it," and that may be a curse because you are asking God to damn things.

@Anonymous yes, and I almost said that if literally intended it wouldn't be a vain usage

but I also don't think it appropriate to actually ask God to damn anything, except perhaps sin

but certainly not towards a person

there aren't many things it would be appropriate as literal meaning

@AJHenderson "God damn my car for not working properly today!"

but if an appropriate situation and a literal request, then it wouldn't be inappropriate

@Anonymous that would be in vain as it isn't a literal request

however if say a pedophile said "God damn my desires towards children", it would not be

3:56 PM

@AJHenderson But there's a literal request: you are asking God to damn your car. :)

as long as they were actually making a meaningful and thought out request

@Anonymous I suppose if they literally wanted that, then it wouldn't be, but it isn't a literal request

which is pretty much the definition of vain

Actually, we must not curse anyone or anything. e.g. Jude 1:9

@AJHenderson How can it not be a literal request?

@Anonymous because it not what they actually want to occur. They are not actually asking that God make there car go away and suffer for all eternity

@AJHenderson Oh, so the thing has to be alive. Well then, you may say, "God damn me!"

4:00 PM

@PaulVargas not sure I see the connection there

he refused to judge Satan's actions

which is different from making a request of God to take action

@AJHenderson Can you ask God to damn yourself?

@AJHenderson What if you want to go away to hell and suffer for all eternity?

@Anonymous you could and it wouldn't be taking the lords name in vain, but it would be requesting something ungodly, thus still wrong

though the special case of you yourself is a bit more ambiguous than requesting it on anyone else, but my gut feeling is that it would still be wrong

certainly unwise

@AJHenderson Do you think that God will grant your wish of going to hell by sending you to hell?

@AJHenderson What if a person genuinely, sincerely believes in hell and believes that he is going to hell, and believes that he would rather be in hell than in heaven?

@PaulVargas fundamentally it is up to God to decide, we can only request. That is what I was dancing around with my statement about curses and the reality of them. Pretty sure we don't actually have the ability, nor is it our place to try to

@Anonymous I am unsure, but believe it is a possibility if that is truely what you wanted. It is one of the possible takes I have on what balspheming the holy spirit may be

@AJHenderson Can a person stay in purgatory forever?

4:04 PM

Hey I have an off opic question but...

@Anonymous that's an irrelevant question for me since I don't believe in purgatory

@AJHenderson That's okay. Imagine that you're Catholic.

How do those questions help you with your salvation?

@PaulVargas - going back to the Ephesian's thing in a bit more detail

Shouldn't that be the #1 concern

4:06 PM

25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26 “In your anger do not sin”[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. 28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.

29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. …

if you look at the full context, it is about edifying speach vs tearing people down or denegrating them

as the general context of the passage

Question, how can I upload a document of some format with links to other documents all embedded into one file so I don't have folder update destination problems

which is why most often, my humor is more self derogatory than targeted at others and is generally only targeted at others if I'm sure they understand it is only humor and not meant. I'm not perfect in that regard and I do still occasionally let someone have it in frustration, but I try to avoid that

@ChrisOkyen not sure what you mean

@ChrisOkyen anonymous is in a bit of a weird situation since he doesn't believe in Christianity, but finds the views of others fascinating. I agree that issues of salvation are the most critical of the faith, but since he isn't seeking, they aren't necessarily the most important to him.

True

ok

g2g

Peace to you

@AJHenderson Different denominations have different soteriologies.

@Anonymous Tell me more about that.

4:15 PM

@Anonymous yes, I was just speaking in terms of agreeing personally with Chris but also understanding why your priorities are different

@AJHenderson Humm... Do you think that God is glorified when you say a bad word or bad expression?

@PaulVargas no more or less so than when I ask where the bathroom is

4:30 PM

@AJHenderson Where is the toilet? It seems to be a neutral expression. Well ... Then, what do you think? Is it right or wrong to say bad words or bad expressions?

@PaulVargas that's just my point though, what makes them "bad expressions" or "bad words"

You're right, in Ephesians 4:29, Paul is talking to believers. Then applies to you and I. To @Anonymous, not. But whatever he says, is recorded in the books, isn't it?

why is f**k any worse to use than sex

culturally we've attributed a difference to them

but that's a cultural norms thing, not some inherent badness of the word

why is s**t any worse than poop

I far, far more rarely (if at all) use derogatory terms.

@AJHenderson It seems that you want to justify you. Our righteousness is worthless. The Justice of God is it that matters.

Put it as a rule, is legalistic. But if I say something, and is a stumbling block to others, then I don't have to say it.

like b***h I'll only use extremely rarely when the context is clearly humerous and facetious

room policy for this room is no swearing

if it was a different room, I'd be using them directly

@PaulVargas I agree on that

and if it is a stumbling block for others, I refrain around them

4:39 PM

@AJHenderson Don't be angry with me, but I think that every day we have to be more like Christ.

@PaulVargas not angry at all, I understand what you are trying to say and why

I have no reason to be angry with you at all

and ironically, I use your statement "our righteousness is worthless" as precisely my support

we've decided that some words are impolite and then decided that impolite words are bad to say

but it's a human decission

@AJHenderson It has to do with etymology and history.

@Anonymous yes, I understand why we consider them swear words or bad words, my point is just that it is a human standard

and one that is changing

words that used to be considered impolite are now accepted in more contexts of life

@AJHenderson There is something very interesting... The words of @Anonymous were erased here, but not in the books.

@PaulVargas Some people do interpret the entire Bible as if it is dogma.

4:44 PM

@PaulVargas edits are manual by mods

I don't know who removed them, but I edited them

@AJHenderson Meaning is subjective.

@AJHenderson I removed my own. There's a time limit.

@Anonymous that's basically what I'm saying. We should behave in an acceptable manner that is not ripping people down, but if I'm online with a gaming clan and they are using the f word and the d word for the male anatomy, etc, there is no reason that it isn't appropriate for me to talk with them in an acceptable manner that isn't derogatory.

@Anonymous I figured you might have

but I didn't feel like checking history, nor am I allowed to disclose it even if I did

@Anonymous So often. If I did, would help me tell me where?

mod rules are very clear that we can't reveal anything that someone else does that isn't public info

or anything we do that isn't publicly visible either

ie, flag handling

@Anonymous I'd say that is the other way around though

people interpret the Bible based on dogma

@Anonymous and yeah, that time limit is something I don't miss as a mod

I'm not kidding when I say it may be my favorite thing about being a mod

Hey, @Anonymous, what do you think about this verse of the Bible: "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."

Very interesting, don't you think?

@Anonymous By the way, have you ever read the entire Bible?

You are familiar with much of Christianity.

4:55 PM

@PaulVargas that's why I'm very careful whenever I joke with others that they understand it is a joke and that I only do it to have a good time with them. I'm very careful to make sure that I'm not actually hurting them

@PaulVargas Nope.

my understanding of that passage is that we are responsible, at least in part, for the impact of words we don't think about

@PaulVargas Christianity is a very big topic. The more I know, the more I am aware of how little I know.

well anyway, I need to go for a while, was nice chatting

@AJHenderson You are right. The truth is that I am somewhat worried about our friend.

@Anonymous The same thing happens with me, my dear friend.

5:04 PM

@PaulVargas as am I, but I can't convince him of the truth of our beliefs (nor is it my job to), only give an answer to the reason that I believe and have the hope that I have. It isn't my job to convince him and if he decides not to believe, it won't be from lack of exposure or people showing and talking about why they believe.

not to discourage you in your efforts

but just as a relevant observation

personally, I'm far more worried about people who write Christianity off out of ignorance about the beliefs or because they see the horrible things people do under the banner and guise of Christianity and are justifiably and correctly appalled

but don't have the opportunity to have someone show them that that isn't what Christianity is

1 hour later…

6:25 PM

> I seem to be having this tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle.

(Points to the first person to get that reference.)

@TRiG award the points to Google

after checking google, I am familiar with the book though

6:55 PM

@AJHenderson And the relevance is that a throwaway remark caused a massive war.

@TRiG yeah, I do so love the getting swallowed by a dog

@TRiG @AJHenderson A war? A dog? What are you talking about?

The quote Trig made is from hitch hikers guide to the galaxy

@AJHenderson chat.stackexchange.com/users/16288/trig?tab=recent

Sorry. I lost myself. You can continue your conversation.

3 hours later…

10:30 PM

To what extent are Christians allowed to believe in superstitions? (This is an opinion-based question.)

To what extent are Christians allowed to believe in paranormal beliefs, the supernatural, and magic?

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Apr '1424

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