The Upper Room - 2013-08-08

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12:01 AM

@Anonymous this is one of those things where you can develop an idea of their doctrine based on what they do not sure if they have an official position but I know they (for instance) will consent to marry a couple who are both too old to have children. And I seriously doubt they make you go through fertility tests prior to performing a wedding

@waxeagle Why do you capitalize "And" in the second sentence but you do not capitalize "This" in the first sentence?

@Anonymous it's not the first letter of the sentence :P

@waxeagle In your case, "And" is the first word of the second sentence. :)

@Anonymous yes, but "this" was not the first word of the first sentence

@waxeagle this sentence isn't capitalized and it's all your fault. :-(

12:07 AM

@JonEricson exactly, but now it's yours

Why are there so many married male programmers here?

El'endia Starman is a programmer. Jon Ericson is a programmer. wax eagle is a programmer. Affable Geek is a programmer. David Stratton is a programmer. Caleb is a programmer.

@Anonymous stack exchange's first (and by far largest) site was a programming site. also programmers sit at internet connected computers all day

@waxeagle Seriously?

@Anonymous Stack Overflow

@waxeagle When do you exercise? Does your wife remind you to exercise or get off the computer?

12:14 AM

@Anonymous exercise?

I stand at work about 4-6 hours depending on the day. I use an exercise ball for a chair at home so my computer time isn't completely horrible for me

btw @JonEricson do you get to buy one of the fancy adjustable desks for your home office? like they have in the NYC office?

@waxeagle Are you overweight?

@waxeagle What happens if there is a power outage?

@Anonymous I've got a bit of a tummy but I'm probably only 10-20lb overweight

@Anonymous at work? I twiddle my thumbs until the power comes back on. At home? I work a crossword puzzle or hang with the missus

@waxeagle Actually, yes. I ordered it yesterday and they said it will take 6-8 weeks to arrive. sigh

@waxeagle Why do you call your wife "missus"? Is that a Southern thing?

@Anonymous I hate always saying "the wife" or "my wife", don't want to use her name and so that's what I choose to use :)

12:19 AM

Today I spend the morning on my front deck and the afternoon at Starbucks. Eventually, I hope to spend more time in the dining room.

@JonEricson During that time, you can ask God for a new baby!

@JonEricson awesome and may it be an actual 6-8 week sand not the SE version of it :)

@Anonymous Lord no! (Or rather, "Lord, if it your will let that cup pass!")

@JonEricson nice. Waiting for the day when I have the confidence in my skills and work ethic to apply for a work from home job

@waxeagle Precisely. But I've been astonished with how much faster SE is than $previous_employer when it comes to equipment and so on.

12:22 AM

@JonEricson took us over a year from the begging to the proving to the ordering to get our desks

@waxeagle On that note. I'm calling it a day. See y'all!

@JonEricson have a good one!

You too!

@JonEricson Maybe the next pregnancy will be planned.

1 hour later…

1:27 AM

-3

Q: Why is it not a sin to marry an infertile woman?

Often those who oppose same-sex marriage will say that there relationship is unnatural because they can't produce a child. But why is it not seen as a sin to marry an infertile woman? there relationship can't produce a child. What are some of the counter arguments to this issue?

sin marriage sexuality

I edited it.

3 hours later…

4:56 AM

Charles Alsobrook, christianity.stackexchange.com/users/5286/charles-alsobrook, is an oblate and is married with two kids? I looked up the word "oblate" and found out that it was associated with Christian monasticism. And I thought monks were single and celibate!

5:22 AM

@Anonymous Well, if we have another pregnancy, it will be (by definition) unplanned. Also, we'll be giving Abraham and Sarah a run for their money. ;-)

@Anonymous Tough call. I think the question has other problems too. In particular:

5

Q: Should we avoid "refute this"-type questions?

Before I begin, I want to emphasize that the question I picked is a good one. In fact, I picked it because it troubled me and I didn't understand why until the reason clicked into place. It's a subtle problem, which is why I'm raising it here. I don't think anyone involved in the question was ...

discussion allowed-questions

8 hours later…

1:31 PM

My account is not allowed to suggest edits anymore. What a pity.

Ah, well. At least I can still suggest them in the Comments.

@Anonymous should clear in a week

@waxeagle Why a week?

@Anonymous its automatic

@waxeagle Also, how did you manage to be online so fast?

@waxeagle It's like you're not in the room, and then - BOOM - you're here!

MAGIC!

@Anonymous heh, I was already here, sometimes you sort of drop from a room, but the page is still loaded and when you talk you come back

1:35 PM

@waxeagle Sheesh. Do you sit behind the computer all day long? When are your work hours?

@waxeagle When do you have the time to go to the bathroom, eat, and sleep?

@Anonymous I work from ~8-5 then I'm on at home intermittently throughout the evening and weekends

@waxeagle But you live in Virginia. That would be using the Eastern time zone, which would tell me that it is presumably 9:38 AM over there.

@Anonymous I don't live in Virginia, but I do live in EDT

@waxeagle Aren't you supposed to be at work now?

@Anonymous I am at work

1:40 PM

@waxeagle So, you hold two jobs? One as a moderator, and the other as a computer programmer for an engineering company? Does that lower your productivity at work (the computer programming job) at all?

@Anonymous well, the mod gig doesn't pay, but eh, my productivity isn't really much worse than before I became a mod. And actually being well connected here has helped me solve problems at my job several times

@waxeagle Well-connected? What do you mean? Do you mean by inviting your co-workers to parties so that they become your best buddies and keep you in position?

@Anonymous no I mean well connected on stack exchange. Knowing how the system works makes getting help on SE with job related stuff much more efficient.

We had a tricky database problem the other week. I knew which chat room to pop in to find people who could help me solve it. something my boss and I puzzled over for a couple of days was fixed in 10 minutes.

@waxeagle Hmmm... have you heard the saying about men asking for directions?

Anyway, do you think that Abraham is a real historical figure?

@Anonymous yes.

1:48 PM

I was reading Merriam-Webster's Visual Dictionary (2nd Edition), and it suggested that Judaism was founded by Abraham, and I was like, "Dude, Abraham was this prophet that lived in 2000 BCE. Seriously???"

So, I did a quick search on Google, and Wikipedia rejected the claim, citing sources that contradicted the claim that Abraham was the "prophet" of Judaism.

I still need to figure out who this Abraham figure really is, and which denominations really say this.

That would be a question on the History.SE or Skeptics.SE, concerning the validity of the existence of Abraham as a real historical figure.

Oh, this dictionary has a picture of a traditional, stone cathedral as a "church".

@Anonymous patriarch

that's the word you're looking for

@waxeagle I already know that Abraham is a patriarch.

Actually, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are the patriarchs.

@Anonymous you can add Ishmael to that list too technically

inappropriate typos ftw.

@waxeagle Ishmael is not the heir. Neither is Esau.

@Anonymous true

1:56 PM

@waxeagle Also, Jehovah's witnesses think that Esau has lost his birthright by foolishly trading it for a simple meal.

And somehow, they equate that with fornication. Right.

@Anonymous yes, the Bible says that (not just the JWs). Though he was also tricked out of it later.

@Anonymous not sure how they get there

but the JWs have some very odd beliefs

@waxeagle They cite an epistle from the New Testament. The NT is relatively stranger than the OT in that it is written in a different form and style.

@waxeagle which is why I am not a Jehovah's witness. I have my reservations.

@Anonymous and language, yes. We believe that God's mission for his people is more fully realized following Christ's life, death and resurrection, which means it would make sense that the style and focus changes.

@waxeagle Another explanation is that a different group of people would have a different kind of writing style for persuading group values.

@Anonymous sure. very different time in history too. there is a pretty significant gap between the last of the OT and the first of the NT

2:09 PM

@waxeagle Have you ever used a confessional?

@Anonymous why would I have?

@waxeagle Well, the picture of the "church" of Merriam-Webster's Visual Dictionary (2nd Edition) looks like a traditional, stone cathedral.

@Anonymous lol I went to church for years in a bank building

and a converted bar..and a converted house

Inside, there are two altars - there is a main altar and a secondary altar for Mary. See? Christianity really does venerate Mary.

Yeah, there may be Protestants who don't but they are in the minority.

Most Christians venerate Mary and the saints.

@Anonymous a large and growing minority

and Catholocism counts whole countries where there are gobs of people who claim to be catholic, but rarely attend church if at all

2:14 PM

@waxeagle It was abandoned, right?

@Anonymous sold to a school following the bank going under

not sure the story on the bar or the house and how they ended up with the churches, the churches were already housed in those buildings when I arrived

(though I was a part of the renovations to the bar to make it more suitable for church, among which removing the pole from the stage was a part)

@waxeagle The traditional stone church building with stained-glass windows is usually the symbol of the "church".

On the front of the church, there may be a steeple or a bell tower.

Not sure what the bell tower is used for nowadays.

@Anonymous uh huh, not every church gets (or wants to) build their own building

@waxeagle Maybe it's more green and economical to recycle an old building and form it into a church building.

@Anonymous economical is a big deal. A lot of churches feel strongly about not going into debt, and others would rather spend their money on ministry than building a building

2:19 PM

I still would like to see stone arches in churches, because of the importance of the keystone in holding the arch. The Romans loved arches, vaults, and domes in their architecture.

@Anonymous yeah, they are kind of expensive to be practical for the average church though

@waxeagle I think the church is registered as a nonprofit organization.

@Anonymous yes. that doesn't mean they don't have, need, or make money. It just means that they have to spend the money they are given

@waxeagle It used to be that the church would require a 10% tithe from the congregants.

However, that has changed, and tithing is now voluntary and no longer 10%.

@Anonymous some churches still do as a condition of membership, though most do not. And really it's not in the spirit of a New Testament understanding of the law

2:23 PM

For instance, a farmer would give away 10% of his crops to the church, and a merchant would give 10% of his products to the church.

@waxeagle Does your pastor use a pulpit?

@Anonymous my current church does not, though I've had others that do.

@waxeagle Is there a lay reader in your congregation? Or is a clergyman reading the verses in the lectionary?

@Anonymous depends on the sunday

@waxeagle Do you put the blood and flesh of Jesus Christ in the sacred vessel (tabernacle)?

@Anonymous huh?

2:29 PM

I don't understand how pastors always figure out something to say on every Sunday.

@Anonymous our pastoral staff has a preaching plan. They have their texts chosen about a year in advance

@waxeagle The visual dictionary says, "Tabernacle: small case used to hold the sacred vessel (ciborium) that contains the host." I'm assuming the host is Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ's flesh and blood are assumed to be transformed from ordinary bread and wine.

@Anonymous that last bit is a debated doctrine

trying to find if anyone has posted a picture of our church's communition set online. It's really cool, custom made by a guy in our church

@waxeagle Is it silverware?

@Anonymous no, it's wood

2:34 PM

@waxeagle Upon entering the church, do you cross yourself with holy water at the holy water font?

@Anonymous no. again, not catholic

@waxeagle Sorry, I thought it was a mainstream Christian thing.

@Anonymous not so much

Since you are a Protestant, you only have one altar, eh?

Because the secondary altar in Christian churches would usually be for the Blessed Virgin Mary or the saints.

catholics have two altars?

2:38 PM

@Anonymous right, though I'm not even sure we'd call it an altar at our church...I..honestly don't know

@waxeagle I visited a Southern Baptist church. There was a stage. It looked like a stage, because it had a raised elevation.

user image

thats my former church

@Anonymous yes, that's common, it's both for practical reasons (better acoustics if the speaker is higher) and symbolic (word of God is raised)

@Sven orthodox?

catholic

@Sven very cool. They do an excellent job of making a sanctuary feel hallowed.

2:41 PM

@Sven So, is there a guy holding the thurible?

the altar boys do that sometimes

@Sven Where is the communion rail? I don't see a communion rail!

we don't have one

it's done like 2.bp.blogspot.com/-KpiSpVYF-Jc/Tw3o480p7OI/AAAAAAAAAkM/…

@Sven Does the cross depict Jesus Christ on it?

@Sven Are the pews made of real wood? What type of wood?

right side is jesus on a cross, left side is maria i think

2:46 PM

@Sven Where is the paschal candle that is supposedly lit up in various Christian rites such as the mass, baptism, and Easter?

real wood, but I have no idea what type

it's to the right of the big one if I remember correctly

@Sven Are you really a Catholic? What type of Catholic?

I'm on paper, haven't attended church in 10 years and am quite an atheist

altough i've had confirmation and everything and was an altar boy for the 10 years before that

@Sven Have you ever considered writing a letter to the pope in Rome or your bishop to remove your name?

I can do that by myself

basically opt-out since most child are baptized either catholic or protestant

2:49 PM

@Sven Why did you choose to serve as the altar-boy? How many altar-boys were there?

I don't really know that, my grandparents took me to church and at one point I was an altar boy ^^

@Sven So, do you have any children? Are you going to baptize the children too, or are you going to continue your atheist life?

@Anonymous you ask a lot of questions, but don't answer many

5

10-20 i guess, but around 3-5 during mess

no children, wouldn't marry in a church and won't baptize my future children

i'm in germany btw, so it's a bit different

@Anonymous are you a theist?

@Sven So, where are you going to be married, or is that undecided?

2:53 PM

there are a lot of old castles or other nice places where someone can marry

@Sven Not sure...

in what way?

@Sven Not sure.

tendency?

@Sven Getting married in Vegas?

2:54 PM

never ;)

@Sven Not sure.

@Sven Maybe the plane ticket from Germany to Las Vegas, Nevada, United States has a whopping price tag?

it is, but vegas is not a place I would like to marry

@Sven The North Pole?

How about the South Pole?

@waxeagle I don't get any questions. And, asking questions is how I start conversations.

in germany will be fine ;)

I just asked you what you believe

3:16 PM

@Anonymous no?

1 hour later…

4:19 PM

The SE team found my queries finally! Sweet!

0

A: Newcomers: Be patient. You will get there if you follow our direction. Keep trying

I've noticed that most users who are received very negatively or in a mixed manner by the community leave as quickly as they came, although some don't: 50 Users Who May Need Some Feedback for Improvement Most users will find that they are positively received by the community, despite some hiccu...

4:38 PM

@Dan I don't really understand the first one. Could you explain a bit what it's up to?

@JonEricson looks like users with more downvotes than up (and a downvote or closure on their record)

and less than 200 rep

5:40 PM

@JonEricson the intention was to ID users who may need some help/encouragement/feedback for improvement

users who may need some guidance

in line with the question I posted this one

And then the second one is supposed to help users gauge where they stand: most users will find that they are received positively by the community

@JonEricson of course it is an algorithm, but it takes a lot of factors into account

@JonEricson @waxeagle I experimented a lot with the community impression algorithm, it's very generous/hospitable

notice that it defaults (final else) to positive

it might be too nice

@waxeagle yes, I aired on the side of being nice - the original version was perhaps too honest haha

@waxeagle feel free to tweak it

@waxeagle and the other query about users needing improvement was essentially so that I had test subjects for this query in some ways

eh, I think you'd have to figure out how to factor deleted posts in

which aren't loaded into that data set I don't think

@waxeagle ahh good call

6:20 PM

@Sven I am agnostic.

@Anonymous what do you do for work? (just curious)

6:36 PM

@waxeagle Currently, it is "summer break". Classes will resume on the 21st of August.

@Anonymous fun fun, what are you majoring in?

6:50 PM

@waxeagle Neuroscience. Final Year.

cool

@waxeagle I have unusual interests. Around late 2011 to early 2012, I was obsessed with Microsoft Excel 2010.

In high school, I borrowed a book from the library and taught myself HTML and CSS, and started web designing. The website was totally random, because I had no idea what the purpose was supposed to be. I just put on random stuff on there. Then, I gave up, because I figured I didn't know how to program. If I wanted to advance in web design, programming is a must.

Same with Excel. Once I tried out the cool-looking functions including making databases, forms, and conditional statements, the next step was programming in VBA, and I didn't know how to do that.

@Anonymous its true. even if it's just javascript, to get very far with the web stuff you've got to know how to program

(which isn't hard, but it does take a fair amount of time and work)

and a certain mindset

@waxeagle What certain mindset?

@Anonymous it might be mythical, but we have an idea that you have to be able to "think like a programmer" you need specific approaches to solving problems, you need to be a little bit lazy and you need to know where to look when you run into a problem you can't solve (and know when it's a problem you can solve and when it's one you can't)

7:04 PM

@waxeagle Is that the same mindset that the GRE may require of you?

The Graduate Record Exam is an exam in which it tests your way of thinking.

@Dan One of these things is not like the others. ;-) But that looks like a handy query.

@Anonymous haven't taken it yet, though I'll need to eventually probably

@waxeagle I can tell you one of my frustrations with $previous_job was that I had several coworkers who had gotten CS degrees (Masters from a particular school that shall remain anonymous) but were in no way programmers. It was stunningly obvious, in fact.

@waxeagle Hmmm... I think you mean 'mystical'. 'Mythical' is usually referring to traditional narratives.

@Anonymous a short tradition, but a traditional narrative it is :)

7:13 PM

@waxeagle So, Genesis is really a myth.

@JonEricson Maybe Computer Science is the study of computers while computer programming is entering code into computers?

@Anonymous yes, it would qualify as a myth. It would be what we call a "true myth"

@Anonymous I referred to the figure of Abraham in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus as a myth once on this site, and offended someone, which wasn't intentional at all. (And I stand by what I said there: the role of Abraham in that story is that of a mythical character.)

@Anonymous no, undergrad Computer Science almost universally has a programming focus

@waxeagle What is a "true myth"?

@Anonymous sorry misspelled that, "true myth" is the correct term. It's a myth that's actually true

(or believed to be true, take your pick)

7:18 PM

@TRiG In the Merriam-Webster's Visual Dictionary (2nd Edition), Abraham is the prophet and founder of Judaism. And Jesus is the founder of Christianity. When it comes to religions, I find it hard to distinguish what is real and what is fiction.

@Anonymous I didn't say a word about Abraham. I spoke about the character of Abraham in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. In that story, his role is mythical.

@waxeagle Beginner classes in Computer Science at the university/college level may have something as basic as learning word processing. I wonder if that includes VBA programming in Word.

@Anonymous yeah, usually the basic computer use stuff gets dumped in with the CS department, but those classes generally aren't part of the major (most computer science students would not need take those)

@waxeagle OK. There are several creation narratives from various cultures, and I believe that all of them are "true".

@waxeagle However, I think those courses may be equivalent to beginner Chemistry classes or Biology classes. Biology majors and Chemistry majors don't need to take the beginner classes like Chem 101. They jump right into "General Chemistry", and if they have taken Gen. Chem. in high school, they may take Organic Chemistry.

@Anonymous essentially

7:30 PM

I think "true myth" is redundant. Traditional narratives are usually concise and teach the values of the in-group. So, all the narratives in Genesis may contribute to meaning and values. The "Torah" is meant to be taught, so the Torah is true, because it teaches true values that help raise a community.

Therefore, Genesis is a myth.

7:49 PM

@Anonymous: How you do define "true" and "truth"?

8:00 PM

Arrgh! I've just seen a horrible grammar error in a question which has my name on it as an editor. The shame!

ooh yikes, want me to fix it? or do you want the free repz?

@TRiG That last sentence doesn't add much anyway.

scrubb'd

1 hour later…

9:05 PM

@RyanFrame "Truth" is something that is true. "True" has many meanings, depending on the context.

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Aug '138

The Upper Room

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