TRPG General Chat

wax eagle

12:38 AM

@BESW yikes, not at my table thanks

at least not without prior consent

BESW

yeeeah. Not A Cool Suggestion.

Magician

Morning

wax eagle

morning, watching the old D&D animated cartoon. Haven't ever watched it...the big huge wtf is the complete lack of weapons

Magician

So do they fight without them, or not fight at all?

wax eagle

1:19 AM

@Magician they do a lot of running away.

there's almost never a direct fight, the barbarian has a magic club, but only ever hits things (mostly the ground). The ranger has an "energy bow" that shoots energy arrows and he's the only one that hits creatures

(and I think only Tiamat at this point)

BESW

1:34 AM

@waxeagle A magic club? Does Alan Moore hang out there?

wax eagle

@BESW lol I don't think so...

BESW

3:35 AM

Outstanding @PhilSandifer critique of Stolen Earth/Journey's End: http://www.philipsandifer.com/2013/12/these-two-strands-together-stolen.html H/T @thirteenfaces #doctorwho

Tweeted by 2minutetimelord on July 20, 2014 at 2:20 AM

Nostalgia. From the Greek, "nostos algos" meaning "to return to old pain." On that note, The Animorphs TV show is on Netflix.

Tweeted by KyleKallgren on July 20, 2014 at 3:11 AM

GMNoob

4:36 AM

Question...

BESW

...Answer.

GMNoob

I just asked a question that would be easier to answer, if I ask 4 other questions which can be used to answer this bigger question

should I post those 4 questions? Namely (How much damage does a rogue do, over a course of an Andventuring day?) then Wziard, Fighter, Cleric

BESW

I'd say either bring it to meta or do it and see if it gets slapped down.

My guess would be that such questions are far too subjective and opinion-based to get useful answers.

You might be able to arrive at a "typical" rogue DPR (but defining "typical" would be a challenge), but then also having to define an average adventuring day...

It's one of those "no such thing as D&D" scope-of-the-medium issues.

GMNoob

@BESW Basic rules only has one type of Rogue

And the adventuring day is strictly defined.

BESW

With restrictions like "Basic only" it becomes more answerable.

user61230

4:58 AM

@BESW Sorry about not responding last night in the Notabar

user61230

I was actually in a game at that point (was only sending messages in points of inactivity during character creation)

BESW

Oh, no worries.

user61230

If you'd like, I can read and respond today

BESW

I'm always happy to get input and ideas.

user61230

I don't know how much help I can be, since I don't actually remember the DW episode, but at the very least I'll read through it.

user61230

4:59 AM

Also, I've started House of Leaves. If you can find a copy...

BESW

@Emrakul It's on my list.

user61230

I'd love to talk about it with you. I think you'd have interesting ponderings on it.

BESW

It seems very relephant to my interests, and profession.

GMNoob

@BESW you seem Good at explaining what other people are thinking, can you explain the comments on my recent question?

BESW

Statistics without context aren't a good fit for the site. You're not asking for solutions to a problem. You may have a problem in mind, but you're not telling us about it.

2

Once again you've pre-decided what information you need to solve an unstated problem.

Unfortunate subtitle mistake of the day: "I must prepare my lecture of South American indigent mythology."

user61230

5:35 AM

There's a lot of inherent meaning in the way House of Leaves is laid out.

user61230

It's also just... I'm going to have to think about this book.

Oxinabox

@BESW: If i wanted a Spoil-lair, should I use yours or create my own?

BESW

In the past users have made their own Lairs, but of course people are welcome to share mine.

Oxinabox

prib best to create my own so i can find the notes easier

BESW

Sounds good.

user61230

5:46 AM

@BESW is the only entity willing to let others share their lair.

2

BESW

And don't forget that you can make conversations!

user61230

Ask anyone else, and they'll say "this is miiiiiine.... MIIIIIINE"

GMNoob

5:58 AM

My problem is I don't understand how or if class effects the encounter guidelines, it's right in the title,

BESW

It's standard policy not to rely on titles to convey crucial information, and beyond that--you didn't ask about that problem. You told us what solution you'd decided you needed and only asked for that solution.

@lisardggY [wave]

Magician

@GMNoob At the risk of another spat (lets try and not do that, eh), I don't get something. How can you both decry prioritizing attacks over improvised actions and care about DPR impact of each class on an adventuring day?

BESW

It does seem like a difficult issue to reconcile with the value I've seen placed on 5e's "guidelines" approach to mechanics.

lisardggY

@BESW Yo.

(I see my lurking was detected)

BESW

@lisardggY Hey, I gave you plenty of lurk time before I called you out.

lisardggY

6:13 AM

True, true. But now I will relurk, because the baby finally graced me with waking up, so I'm taking her for a walk.

BESW

Woo!

GMNoob

@magician there are two different issues. One is how does the game play. What can I do during my turn. The other issue is , the reality of math and it's impact.

BESW

I'm unclear how "what I can do on my turn" doesn't have an effect on DPR.

GMNoob

In 5e the math should disappear to the background during play. A +1 or 2 more points of damage shouldn't have that big of an impact from turn to turn compared with more story driven elements. Before the game is played however, I think it's important if my Rogue is going to be capable of killing certain monsters or not.

Magician

@GMNoob The playstyle you've described, or at least the way I understood it, made DPR meaningless, though. Because on any given turn you might be attacking, thus contributing to damage; or swinging around on a vine or stuffing moss into monster's mouth of otherwise improvising in the name of fun, thus ignoring DPR entirely.

GMNoob

6:20 AM

Less important is not the same as meaningless

For example, if one class has a dpr of 15 and the other of 2 , that's going to impact what sort of monsters I throw at it. However, once the monster is chosen, the actions you take on your turn won't matter if your dpr drops to 13 or raises to 17

Sorry let me rephrase that

The actions you take are more important than if your actions adjust the dpr up or down 2 points

BESW

"More important" in what sense? To the story? To the speed and efficiency with which you defeat challenges?

Magician

DPR only makes sense if on every turn you're attacking (or doing something to advance that cause). It's your speed of moving along the Monster HP axis, where reaching its end signifies victory. If you spend an indeterminate yet significant amount of time not dealing damage, DPR as a measure ceases to be useful or calculable (without defining ratio of improv).

GMNoob

If all classes have a daily Dpr in the range of 13 to 16 then that's good enough. It means, in my mind that which class you pick won't need to effect which monsters you encounter too much

More important to having a fun and enjoyable game

Dpr only makes sense as an average. It's useful for understanding averages. But the disconnect is in saying that the hp axis must be gotten through for an encounter to be completed.

Magician

So given that DPR is a secondary consideration at best for completing encounters or having fun, why do you ask this at all? Every class can do improvised actions, thus every class can contribute in the way that counts most to you.

As for the question itself, I don't think any calculations can be terribly useful until PhB is out.

GMNoob

For example, we learned that at level 20 a warrior with TWF is going to be doing half the damage as one with heavy weapon mastery. That is a large enough difference to impact end game choices, such that it won't make sense to expect a TWF to kill a demon in one lucky round, but a heavy weapon fighter might.

Again, a secondary choice does not mean it's an irrelevant choice.

Magician

6:33 AM

First, I expect that'll be rectified with feats in PhB. Otherwise, the system is somewhat laughable. But you're already asking about builds within a class.

If within a single class DPR can vary that much, what sort of interclass balance do you expect?

In 4e, damage could vary even more, sure. Guidelines and benchmarks were developed by the community to rate the damage output of PCs - Brian wrote a whole paper on it.

GMNoob

The first question is what is fun. The second question is , will this fun thing delay the battle too much, or will the delay be insignificant.

Answering both questions is important before you make a decision

Magician

...yes, not attacking in a round will delay the battle by a round. Next question?

GMNoob

Not necessarily

Magician

That's the answer derived from DPR. If you end the fight in some other way (which is fine and all), DPR is not relevant.

BESW

Hmm. The most powerful builds in 3.5 make DPR useless because they ignore HP completely and go for more swift and brutal takedowns using other fight-ending strategies like ability drain and save-or-lose effects. This created two basic paradigms in which to analyse conflicts, one of which totally superseded the other.

GMNoob

6:38 AM

If I attack and roll a 1, it's also going to delay combat by a round. If I crit, it might speed up combat by two rounds. If I do an improv action it might make others chars able to hit twice as hard, speeding up combat by a few rounds

BESW

We could analyse how fighters and rangers and monks and barbarians contributed to fights and the speed with which they would dispatch enemies, but as soon as a class with non-HP options to end fights appeared in a fight, that analysis of DPR-based conflict was moot.

Magician

@GMNoob Rolling a 1 or a 20 is part of DPR calculation.

GMNoob

When you play an actual game, there are not enough dice rolls to rely on averages

Magician

@GMNoob That's missing the point of DPR entirely.

GMNoob

@BESW yes but those were abilities that didn't rely on HP rather than individual circumstances.

No, it's not missing the point, it's being realistic.

Magician

6:42 AM

The disconnect here, for me, is that you vehemently stood for your right to not participate in DPR and ridiculed my playstyle where DPR mattered. Did I misunderstand that position, and do you primarily use improv actions to affect DPR?

GMNoob

Dpr is a value which gives you information, but not enough information.

Magician

DPR is rarely if ever used to make round-to-round decisions.

GMNoob

You missunderstood my position

You were in that conversation using it to make round by round decisions on spell choice

Magician

I was using average damage on a hit, which is different.

GMNoob

Without doing dpr calculations, there are certain abilities which we might think are better than they really are, such as lucky vs a better weapon .

But those sorts of decisions are made before gameplay, rather than during it.

Magician

6:47 AM

Indeed, which was my point.

@GMNoob In which case, once again, I don't think 5e does what you want it to do. It doesn't have much meaningful support for improvised combat-affecting actions, as there are zero guidelines on what effect they can have. Once again, compare it with Fate where you use your skills to create aspects on people or situations and later invoke them for free and then for fate points. Every such interaction is clearly defined. There's no "can I use improv to blind people?" questions.

GMNoob

There is lots of guidelines on what it does

The only reason why 'can I use improv to blind someone' is a question is because in 4e the answer was no, but in 5e the answer is yes.

Magician

I'm fairly certain 4e also had "do stuff not covered by the rules as a standard action".

GMNoob

And in 2e the answer was 'what does blinded mean'

yes but the do stuff didn't include conditions, just improvised damage

Magician

My answer to blinding people in 5e in general would be "no, you can use your action to aid another's attack and flavor it as tossing sand in the enemy's face". As that's the baseline presented by the rules.

@GMNoob Show me where 5e improv action rules say anything about conditions.

GMNoob

Then you didn't read the rules carefully enough

Both shove and grapple give conditions. Both shove and grapple are described as just two of many ways to do in combat contests

Magician

6:55 AM

Alas, I've got to run. I'll be back in a couple of hours, we can pick this up then if you're still around.

GMNoob

It tells use to use those two abilities as a baseline for other actions

As one of the answers points out however, throwing sand in the eyes is not a good example of a contest which can impose conditions

There is a certain irony to a q&a site for experts not being able to answer questions for higher level understanding of the rules, unless there is a simple concrete question that can be answered. It's the diffeence between asking what is 2+2 and 'why does addition work regardless of the base number system used'

BESW

7:10 AM

The site chooses its scope quite deliberately and carefully. Questions outside that scope can be fielded, but need more explicit justification.

Experience shows that the voting system breaks down pretty fast outside the scope of "real problems with objective answers." RPG.SE tries harder than most SE sites to accommodate questions outside that scope (hence, for example, having stricter guidelines for recommendation questions rather than banning them entirely), but it's still gotta cleave to what the site's set up to handle.

The ideas and challenges underlying your questions are well within the site's ability to handle, but it often takes some work to present them in ways the site is set up to answer.

If instead you rail against the very notion that the site is unable--and thus unwilling--to answer whatever question in whatever format, the site will push back. Hard.

If you want to change how the site handles things, that's for meta rather than chat. Nothing in chat will change how the site operates.

...although it can beget resentment when, for example, a citizen uses chat to insinuate that the site's contributors are either idiotic or acting in bad faith.

There are plenty of sites set up to discuss abstract game theorycrafting. Many of our users are active in those arenas as well as here.

GMNoob

7:37 AM

You are reading insinuation where there is none.

But I am specifically being told that I need to ask about 2+2 to get an answer to the question of why does addition work across bases.

BESW

I'm open to believe you don't intend insult, but you manage to give insult quite consistently anyway.

And yes. Yes, you are being told that this site is focused on answering particular subsets of questions.

GMNoob

Sorry, but I don't know what is so insulting.

BESW

Your response to the idea that one site on the Internet isn't interested in answering every question possibly related to its topic... seems to be that you think it's because the site's users can't answer theoretical questions (as above). Or, for variety, sometimes you simply tell us that your question's context is so obvious and clear that you shouldn't have to provide it (which is hard to read any other way than that we're too dumb to understand you).

GMNoob

I said won't answer, not can't answer. And I appilogize for finding it ironic.

BESW

@GMNoob "experts not being able to answer questions"

GMNoob

7:48 AM

As per the site rules/scope

BESW

We do our best to work with you on understanding the site and working within it. We like talking about different understandings and approaches. But every conversation about 5e turns into you lecturing us on how your understanding of 5e is superior.

I know you don't mean it to come out that way, but that's the way it comes across.

If I work very hard I can break through it and we have a nice conversation.

I like those conversations.

GMNoob

Fine, I'll stop talking then. Because I have no idea what makes me sound like I'm lecturing or believe I know more than anyone else who has read the rules and blogs articles.

BESW

I'd prefer it if you'd continue to contribute to the chat.

GMNoob

But you said I'm not really contributing

BESW

I've said on multiple occasions that I think your experience and insight into 5e (and the wider gaming medium, of course) is valuable and interesting.

It's the manner in which you present it which can get... overbearing and aggressive, to the point that others don't feel like contributing to the conversation too. Would you be open to having people point out when they're feeling overborn, so you can work on it?

GMNoob

7:54 AM

Yes, but if people have to work so hard to find it, they'll likely better gain that insight from a other source

That would help a lot

BESW

If I didn't think your presence is worth the effort, I'd suggest that others just make a white-list room to talk about 5e where you can watch but not type. The chat engine supports that, but I view it as a last-ditch nuclear option.

GMNoob

Lol

That quite a bit of effort to just tell someone they shouldn't talk on a topic

BESW

Thank you for listening. This wasn't easy to say, and I'm sure it wasn't easy to hear, but I hope it helps ease some of the tension that's been in chat recently.

I know your experience with RPG.SE and 5e has been somewhat bumpy from the start.

Inbar Rose

BESW - the natural diplomat.

GMNoob

Is the question more clear and in scope now? rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/44710/…

Honestly, it's a lot easier to hear than ' your problem is not a real problem'

BESW

8:02 AM

There are a lot of areas in which the phrasing of the site could be improved. It's happening... slowly...

And yeah, at a quick glance-over that question looks a lot better now. I'm still not sure if the last paragraph is too specific or not, but as it's now a suggested answer format rather than the question itself, I think it'll manage.

Voting to re-open.

GMNoob

I think it would be closed as too broad or too subjective without it, no?

BESW

In time, I think experienced-based answers to the basic "how should I adjust the adventuring day to reflect class makeup?" question could be produced. Until then... yeah, I think it at least demonstrates a way the question can be answered in a moderately objective fashion.

@InbarRose Not much natural about it.

GMNoob

Should I add what I'm curious to know? Like if for example the wizard does the same dpr for 2 hard encounters but for 3 hard encounters it runs out of daily spells and falls behind the figbter?

But that's just one possible thing I might learn from the answer, there are likely other things I would learn that I'm not aware of.

BESW

I think, if anything, that'd be more useful than your suggested answer format.

@GMNoob So say exactly that.

Often the trick to asking a good question is just to be upfront about what's going on in your head.

@InbarRose Remember our Fractal Scoobies?

GMNoob

8:25 AM

I'm afraid that if I was upfront with what is in my head my questions would be long ramblings :)

Edited, is that more clear now?

BESW

@GMNoob That's a concern I run into with some of my questions.

Sometimes I ask the chat for help, sometimes I just post more than I need and people help me trim the fat through edits.

@GMNoob I think so? You're getting into 5e-specific stuff that I can't really hold forth on.

One thing I haven't done is gone to meta and asked for help with a question before I post it to the main site.

If I did that, I'd post the long rambling stuff to meta and ask for help whittling it down and forming it.

GMNoob

I'll take the question as being to 5e dependant as a good sign 😋 thanks

kviiri

Good day everyone.

BESW

Yawp!

What's new?

kviiri

Perusing the Apocalypse World rulebook.

Augury, what a weird mechanic.

BESW

8:39 AM

Do tell.

kviiri

Well, there's this thing called psychic maelstrom. Every character can "read" it and receive some cryptic advice from the GM (with the exact clarity depending on the roll).

But Augury introduces concepts such as opening a window to the maelstrom, containing a fragment of it, protecting a person from it, reaching through it to another person connected... but with absolutely no explanation to what these mean.

BESW

I see.

Didn't oWoD have similar "here's something that sounds cool, but ask your Storyteller what it means" mechanics?

kviiri

The very nature of the maelstrom is up to the GM, I think.

BESW

(Certainly my experience with oWoD gave that impression, but I recognise it may have been heavily influenced by my ST's style.)

kviiri

Or, for "open your brain" move (the one available to all chars), they can ask the player what they see the maelstrom as.

BESW

8:46 AM

Ah, the old "everyone's brain sees the unseeable differently" gag.

GMNoob

This reminds me of the confusion I was having from the end of the Flash pilot. "Is he seeing an actual newspaper? Does the machine access the future? Is it a mutant power?"

BESW

Wait, the pilot for The Flash has been released already?

I thought it was going to be screened this coming week at ComicCon.

GMNoob

Oops? :)

I watched it on project free tv, and saw articles about it, I assumed I was behind the times.

Apparently it was leaked. hypable.com/2014/06/27/the-flash-pilot-leak-review

kviiri

I would've asked SE how augury is supposed to work but it'd be pretty pointless since it should work like I want.

BESW

Heh.

kviiri

9:00 AM

So maybe I'll just make up something appropriate when a player wants to use it for something.

BESW

Hmm. Psychic maelstrom. I could have fun with that.

Metool

[expects Oracle to announce a meta question soon]

BESW

@Metool Hmm?

Metool

Talking to someone, encouraged them to make a post about a gripe they have.

BESW

Meta's been quiet for two days.

Metool

9:10 AM

Not saying they've posted the question yet.

BESW

Ah.

Inbar Rose

@BESW Yes!

I enjoyed making those with you.

BESW

We had trouble with aspects because they were kinda... flat.

Inbar Rose

Re visitation time?

BESW

I've been watching Mystery Incorporated and it's got some slightly more rounded versions of the characters. However, it's also dropped a lot of the clichés we were building on.

Inbar Rose

9:12 AM

mmm

I liked the cliches.

As a kid, watching the show, you always expected them, waited for them, and were excited when they came!

BESW

Aye.

Inbar Rose

That's what makes cartoons great.

You can tell mostly from just looking at a character what to expect.

Especially after you hear their voice!

BESW

This one's exploring the intraparty dynamics a bit more.

Inbar Rose

Velma and Fred? :P

BESW

There are two relationship triangles: Scooby-Shaggy-Velma and Daphne-Fred-Traps.

Inbar Rose

9:14 AM

Hmm

"traps" is something we overlooked.

That should be a design element.

Maybe a game aspect.

Do you still have the link to that doc?

BESW

The friendship between Velma and Daphne is a little more fleshed out, Fred's given a bit more character (albeit a comedic one, it's still interesting and non-flat).

Inbar Rose

(You usually have things handy, I would need to dig)

BESW

Actually, one of Fred's aspects is "Obsessed with Rube Goldberg traps."

Inbar Rose

:)

BESW

@InbarRose Right here.

Inbar Rose

9:16 AM

@BESW Knew I could count on you!

BESW

@Arkhaic Hi!

Inbar Rose

How would you word "traps" as a game aspect?

"Traps around every corner" ?

"Beware of traps" ?

BESW

First we define the setting element, then we mechanise it.

Inbar Rose

"Zoinks! Traps!" :)

BESW

What does "traps" mean for story and gameplay?

Inbar Rose

9:18 AM

Well

BESW

In Mystery Incorporated it's more often something the Scoobies set up for the villains, than something the Scoobies run into themselves.

Inbar Rose

In the show, a group would always get trapped/stuck and the other group would save them / get stuck with them and they would break out together

BESW

Which makes it a character mechanic rather than a setting one.

Inbar Rose

Usually they would get stuck in eachothers traps

BESW

If it's something the villains arrange for them, then it's villain mechanics.

Inbar Rose

9:19 AM

"Traps, traps everywhere!"

BESW

If it's a natural part of the setting.... well, I've explored meta aspects for games before and they don't see very useful.

Inbar Rose

Hmmm

Would traps be a skill?

Arkhaic

Oh, his BESW. Just noticed the notification.

Inbar Rose

Or embedded under the more relevant? Like athletics to escape and lore to set?

Arkhaic

*hi

BESW

9:20 AM

We can say that the abandoned circus has Confusing alleys, the old house has Too many doors.

Inbar Rose

No, it shouldn't be a skill

This game should be able to be played in FAE as well

BESW

@InbarRose Making traps is a stunt or extra.

@Arkhaic Glad to have you in chat! How's it going? Anything in particular on your mind, or just hanging out?

Inbar Rose

@BESW Yes, but I think it's an element of the story and so maybe it should be game-wide like a game aspect?

GMNoob

@BESW what about scrappy?

Inbar Rose

@GMNoob He's not core.

BESW

9:22 AM

@GMNoob Who? I have no idea what you're talking about.

[he said firmly and finally]

Scrappy Doo

[cough]

@BESW Eh, original came here to talk about the tone of some comments I've seen on here.

BESW

@Arkhaic We'd be happy to make that the topic of discussion if you like, but chat isn't where things are resolved so a meta post about it would probably also be a good idea at some point.

Metool

9:24 AM

@BESW [cough]

BESW

@Metool [blink] Would you like a lozenge?

Arkhaic

Yeah. In this case the question itself had some problems too.

GMNoob

@InbarRose Ha!

Metool

@Metool [cough]

Arkhaic

As far as I can tell, one guy thought that it was specifically a rules question, while the answer was addressing encounter design and NPC behavior.

BESW

9:27 AM

Ah, yeah, misunderstandings about the scope of a question can be hard to ferret out sometimes.

Arkhaic

Yeah. I didn't answer this question, but the comments rubbed me the wrong way.

7

Q: How can I design encounters that appeal more to stealth based characters and are fun for me to run?

I'm currently running a levels 1 to 20 campaign with my friends, and one of them is a Ninja (Pathfinder's class using the Basic Rogue Template). Functionally it's pretty much the same, and the thing is that, being a group that really enjoys combat encounters, he always finds himself having a hard...

GMNoob

I'll assume you mean this answer? rpg.stackexchange.com/a/44697/2064

erm the comment on that answer

Arkhaic

Yeah.

BESW

Hmm. [reads]

Arkhaic

The other comment confused me, but it didn't seem so much problematic as incomprehensible (which has a bit to do with the question itself)

GMNoob

9:30 AM

I think the confusion comes from this last paragraph, which I read as being the main question.
"Any ideas on how I can balance action and stealth without consuming too much rounds on doing so? That is what kills the fun for me, the fact to see my player run away, make stealth rolls, remain hidden, and suddenly attack when he could gain the bonus in one round."

BESW

There's definitely some confusion on the question; it's got two close votes so some people think it's not yet well-defined enough to get answers which clearly address the querent's challenges.

GMNoob

The rest was sort of context for that paragraph when I read it.

Arkhaic

Ah. (quick question, do AOOs exist in 5e?)

Metool

@Arkhaic Yes, for moving out of reach. Not out of a threatened square, but out of reach.

Firing ranged weapons in melee is only done with disadvantage.

BESW

Now, the comment... It's phrased pretty bluntly, but if we read it in the context of what comments are for (improving posts) it's clear that the commenter thinks the answer could be improved and tells us exactly how he thinks it could be done: by adding system-specific advice.

GMNoob

9:33 AM

@Arkhaic Sortof

Arkhaic

Yeah.

GMNoob

I wish when you clicked on "leave open" in a review for close votes, it counted as a "reopen" vote as soon as it gets closed. (if it does)

BESW

@GMNoob That presupposes quite a bit, like that the question won't get edited drastically in the meantime.

Metool

Do those votes get wiped when-- yeah, that.

BESW

So... yeah. The comment definitely could've been phrased better. It's got useful content, but presentation is something I think everyone--including myself--can regard as an ongoing self-improvement project.

GMNoob

9:37 AM

@BESW True. But there should be some way to say, "Others say No, this should not be closed."

BESW

@GMNoob I imagine you could find some history of why it's that way by looking through the main Stack meta.

GMNoob

I see a difference between 2 votes to close, and 2 votes to close with 5 others saying "no, stay open"

@BESW Once you point out heavily edited questions, I think it becomes clear why it has to be this way without making a mess.

"stay open" would have to be reset on every edit I think

BESW

Which is probably, in the end, going to be identical to "vote to re-open if/when it closes," both in effect and in effort.

GMNoob

@BESW yup

Arkhaic

Oh, that's what they were talking about.

I was trying to figure out what the "keeping the ninja in-line with the rogue" thing was about.

GMNoob

9:49 AM

Yeah, it sounded to me like they either removed cunning action from the Ninja, or didn't realize what it does.

Arkhaic

Ah, that makes sense.

looks at philosophy stack exchange

runs away scared

BESW

Oh, hey. Illithids in Scooby-Doo.

Complete with mind blasts.

GMNoob

what season is that from? doesn't look right to me.

BESW

@GMNoob Season one of Mystery Incorporated, 2011.

@Arkhaic Yeeeah. Some Stacks I don't think I'd be a good fit in.

trogdor

@BESW yeah, this didn't look right, and 2011 is several years after I stopped watching scooby doo

BESW

10:04 AM

Mystery Incorporated is doing good so far, but it's a pretty radical reboot of the franchise.

GMNoob

My mind is blown. Kasey kasem was the voice of shaggy?

BESW

...aaand they just made a Galaxy Quest reference. I'm sold.

Arkhaic

I mean, in rpg.se I see blunt comment.

In philosophy I see open aggression over religion.

Sometimes open passive aggrestion.

trogdor

@BESW well, that is always a plus

but I don't think I could get over the stupidity of Scooby Doo when I watched it as a kid

BESW

@Arkhaic It's very hard for the Stack format to address such topics usefully. I know the Christianity Stack had some very tough growing pains.

GMNoob

10:11 AM

@trogdor the show or the dog?

trogdor

eh

both

mostly the fact that, at least for the incarnation of the show that I used to watch, I started noticing that basically every freaking episode was the same dang thing

BESW

@trogdor Actual line from the new show: "Let's hide in that abandoned factory! We'll be safe among the dangerous machinery!"

trogdor

lol

BESW

Their town is a tourist trap that capitalises on its reputation as a spooky place with lots of ghosts and monsters, so the sheriff and mayor don't like it when the Scoobies keep showing that they aren't real monsters.

Arkhaic

Yeah. The question was aggressive too.

BESW

10:17 AM

@Arkhaic If you're referring to the one that was in the Hot Network Questions list... bleh. Conflating scientific rigour with faith is a frankly silly rhetorical gimmick. I can't really take that question seriously regardless of its tone.

kviiri

Whoa, a thunderstorm actually broke my connection for a while. Hasn't happened for years.

BESW

I do think science and religion are complementary methods of examining and understanding the universe, but they come from radically different ways of interacting with reality. They provide different kinds of insights and tools for understanding the world and ourselves and making informed choices, and are best used in tandem, but evaluating one by the rigours of the other is to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of both.

Arkhaic

Yeah. Oftentimes you're starting from completely different premises too, which makes discussion a headache.

BESW

Aye, it can be difficult to break down to bedrock terms and establish common ground for talking about it.

And quite often egos get in the way of it, which is a non-starter.

GMNoob

@BESW Each episode takes place in the same town? I liked it when the monster was really the old mine owner trying to scare off buyers etc.

BESW

10:24 AM

@GMNoob Most of it's in the same town, and yes that is a common motif. They do occasionally travel though.

They've had insurance fraud and fake leather smugglers, revenge-obsessed inventors and insanely overprotective parents...

GMNoob

@BESW Re insanely overprotective parents.: Oh man, they have to do an episode where Mystery Inc. reveals that Santa clause is just the father in a suit. :P

BESW

Right now I'm watching horror author H.P. Hatecraft get kidnapped by a mind flayer.

GMNoob

lol

Magician

@kviiri I think the idea with the Maelstrom in AW is that players discover and create what it actually is in play, using that move among others.

BESW

@Magician I can get behind that.

Though, my brain being what it is, I already have a pretty good idea what I'd make it if left to my own devices.

Magician

10:38 AM

Yeah, I suspect in practice it usually ends up being GM's idea flavored by players.

GMNoob

Is "Undead" vs "Hell" a trope?

kviiri

@Magician That's what I thought, but it'll be a challenge.

BESW

@GMNoob Umm. Context?

Magician

@kviiri It is! For GM and players both. It's a different approach to running the game.

kviiri

At least the gal most likely to use Augury in the party is the posse's other experienced role-player (in addition to myself).

BESW

10:40 AM

I mean, in 4e there's a goddess of the dead who wants to make sure souls go to their appropriate afterlives, and thus she despises necromancy because it waylays souls and keeps them from their just eternities.

kviiri

She's the Hocus.

GMNoob

@BESW A D&D book I just read basically had a battle between undead creatures, and various devils/demons

And it got me thinking to the larger story of undead vs hell

kviiri

@Magician It just feels weird that it's half-specified... with Augury, I know I can contain a fragment of the maelstrom, but I don't have a clue what containing it means.

BESW

Traditionally in folklore the UnDead are either the result of demonic activity, or they're souls banned from the afterlife.

GMNoob

@BESW Right, normally I see them as being "on the same side"

BESW

10:42 AM

It's easy to lump evil with evil all together.

kviiri

When I was younger, I loved various map editors such as the one in Heroes of Might and Magic III. One of the recurring themes in my maps was a war between the undead and the infernal.

GMNoob

Or the undead, "when freed" end up in hell. But this gave new possibilities, like the lords of Hell, fighting with the "queen of the damned" over bodies and souls.

BESW

But usually souls lingering on the earth after death want to go to their rest and are somehow prevented, because of their deeds in life or the machinations of evil.

Magician

@kviiri I haven't actually played or even read AW, only its derivatives. I guess What "containing" maelstrom means is too contingent on what maelstrom is. Is it fungus zombies? Or alien pop song that's too catchy?

GMNoob

Actually, the more I read about Demons in D&D the less I understand them, as they don't appear to be fighting over souls, as much as just being creatures of a different plane.

The battle read more like a battle between shadow magic, and fire magic, than undead and demons.

BESW

10:45 AM

@GMNoob [sigh] You probably don't want to hear my rant about D&D's laughable internal consistency.

kviiri

@Magician The only clues as to what the maelstrom actually is are scattered descriptions of various abilities. "Open your brain" reveals you can get knowledge out of it, Hocus's augury power reveals it can be manipulated with a group of dedicated people, Savvyhead's augury power reveals it can be manipulated with certain physical tools.

GMNoob

@BESW Depends on the era :P

BESW

Suffice to say, D&D does not and probably cannot have a logical continuity and canon, because of its origins:

Feb 19 at 2:53, by BESW

The D&D setting started out as a haphazard collection of pop culture that a half-dozen guys 40 years ago liked.

kviiri

Augury ability itself describes being able to "reach deep into the maelstrom", "contain a fragment of the maelstrom", "open a window into the maelstrom"

Or even "protect someone from the maelstrom"

At least I'll make sure that if a player uses the maelstrom a lot it'll start to bleed into their daily life even when they're not trying to use it

BESW

D&D's never even really tired to be internally coherent. Its economy is adventure-based, its spells and the nature of religion in the setting should have resulted in a society so radically different from ours as to be almost unfathomable...

kviiri

10:48 AM

Hah, true.

I always imagined the small city in Angband to be an "adventurer-ran economy" where the gears were kept turning with the loot brought from the depths of the dungeon.

BESW

And for some years the alignment axes and splatbook economy helped enable a paradigm of symmetry for its own sake which cluttered the franchise with a hodgepodge of poorly hung-together notions which really exist only because their opposite exists.

GMNoob

@BESW Eh, the world economy isn't really adventure based.

kviiri

An economic boom would be an abundance of adventurers who would rob the dungeon clean, an economic recession would mean lots of dead adventurers.

BESW

An excellent example being the idea of "good poisons" in 3.5's Book of Exalted Deeds, which makes no sense except as a meta-mechancial parallel to the content of the Book of Vile Darkness.

GMNoob

@BESW like chemo therapy?

BESW

10:50 AM

@GMNoob ....no.

I believe they were called ravages and afflictions, and they're basically horrific poisons and diseases which it's "moral" to use because they only affect evil creatures.

kviiri

That sounds incredibly... forced.

GMNoob

Ah, designer bio chemical warfare. "This bomb will only hurt the evil people"

trogdor

@BESW so in other words, they did not know the concept of stooping to the level of a monster

BESW

Because Good characters are concerned about the suffering of others so they don't use poisons! But if the poison only makes evil people suffer, it's okay. Because... look, a prestige class!

kviiri

"Alas, all people are bound by the chains of temptation."

GMNoob

10:53 AM

@BESW Eh, I've seen the concept in many movies / short stories. Prestige classes are not required for such ideas.

BESW

@kviiri As I said, it really only makes sense when you realise that the entire Book of Exalted Deeds is designed as a companion for the Book of Vile Darkness, so the mechanics presented in the BoED are almost all simply inversions of BoVD mechanics.

kviiri

Does every book have to have an opposed counterpart?

BESW

@GMNoob "Look, a prestige class!" was intended as a humorous representation of their attempt to distract their audience from the poor moral logic of their presentation.

GMNoob

@BESW ah, sorry, I thought it said "because prestige class"

BESW

@kviiri Not every book, but in order to keep pumping out expansion material the alignment axis proved to be a useful tool for "logically" justifying unnecessary extra mechanics.

Transcript for