TRPG General Chat

BESW

12:07 AM

[wave]

BESW

12:50 AM

I'm racking up an increasingly-respectable flag count on "comments and answers are not the same."

Zachiel

@DampeS8N In my personal experience, 4e is bad for this kind of demo. In one session you don't get what's good about 4e and differentiates it from a boardgame, which is the overarching narrative that ties encounters togheter. I'm suggesting Agon instead.

BESW

1:10 AM

@MC_Hambone Remind me to give you the "Chamorro orthography is messy" talk next time we're both on.

BESW

3:50 AM

Time to brainstorm some Knave Port aspects.

BESW

4:38 AM

@KyleSykes Hi!

Kyle Sykes

@BESW Hello!

Long time

BESW

Indeed. What's new?

Kyle Sykes

Not too much really. The usually school stuff, but this semester has been a lot more relaxed for me than past ones

You?

BESW

Keeping busy, work, family. Working on a "new" Fate campaign that's actually a re-tool of an old aborted D&D 3.5 campaign, because one of the players from that game is re-joining us.

Kyle Sykes

Nice

BESW

4:46 AM

I'm actually trying to put together aspects for the setting right now in the Spoil-Lair.

BESW's Spoil-Lair

CAUTION: High chance of plot. Not for BESW's players.

MC_Hambone

7:13 AM

@BESW [wave]

Inbar Rose

8:00 AM

Good Morning.

lisardggY

10:10 AM

Yay, an Ars Magica question! And one that I can answer, too!

Phil

10:50 AM

It's nice when an obscurish system question comes up that you and not many other people can answer

lisardggY

11:09 AM

@Phil Except when the other one who can answer is Brian Ballsun-Stanton.

Phil

Yeah, there is that :o)

Zachiel

Which was that D&D character race that actually were two people doing things togheter? I can't find them in google.

Professor Caprion

11:27 AM

[Rises from the grave]

lisardggY

@ProfessorCaprion ...and into another grave, mostly. Slow day today.

Professor Caprion

@lisardggY I hear you! But my morning started off with an actual good voicemail, which is very unusual.

lisardggY

Voicemail. Ugh.

Professor Caprion

Voicemails usually never bode well because it's usually a customer and I hate those.

lisardggY

All the impersonality of a message, all the impracticality of a voice call.

Professor Caprion

11:30 AM

But this was not a customer! It was the regional sales manager calling to schedule an appointment so we could talk about my pursuing a job opening I really, really, really want.

IE - A chance to escape this cubicle.

Metool

oh oh oh

finally my copy of Ultimate Campaign will come in handy

Zachiel

@Metool Like this? (warning: anime bosom, might be NSFW)

Grace Note

@Zachiel That's more of an "O ho ho"

Professor Caprion

Hah, I forgot about Naga...

Zachiel

11:50 AM

@GraceNote I'm still trying to think about which fictional character laughed while covering her mouth with her fingers, palm to the face, wrist to the neck.

@ProfessorCaprion I think my next RP character could borrow Naga as an avatar, if only I could find some not-so-anime image of her.

Professor Caprion

I haven't done online RP in so long... when I had to look for a character portrait for an IM RP the other day, it took me hours.

Grace Note

@Zachiel ...many. Very, very many.

Zachiel

@GraceNote my Google-fu fails me today.

Grace Note

I can't even give specifics at the moment since it's just such a common laugh pose to me that I can't put any particular name to it.

Professor Caprion

Kodachi Kuno did that, too, didn't she?

Zachiel

11:56 AM

I was thinking Team Rocket's Jesse but no. Kodachi Kuno did it, right.

Professor Caprion

I haven't watched much anime in a long time. Last one I really got in to was Baccano!

Zachiel

Oh, no, I checked. She keeps the back of her hand to her face

Professor Caprion

Ah, crap.

Metool

how do I handle animal

Zachiel

(just like most of the people doing the aristocratic laugh thing. I need the silly "oh, boy, I'm so evil you're so stupid" thing)

@Metool Roll a d20

Professor Caprion

11:58 AM

@Metool With caution.

Zachiel

(If the roll is high enough you don't care about how, you did it. If the roll is too low, "you don't")

Seriously, which kind of animal, and is it for a game or IRL?

BESW

Young Detective Dee: Rise of the Sea Dragon is AMAZING.

Metool

Advice on improving this answer?

Professor Caprion

I have more hidden tags than favourite tags. Hrm.

But that's probably because there's about a quadrillion different ways of saying "D&D".

Magician

12:14 PM

@BESW I'll bite. Why? :)

wax eagle

@Metool quotes of the rules would be really helpful

BESW

@Magician It's got a lot of boring, cliché bits, and it overuses CGI, and it steals lots of scenes from famous films. But it also contains amazingly innovative uses of CGI, and an astonishingly silly story that never blinks or looks at the camera...

...and one of the best fight scenes between ships and a giant spiny <spoiler> with a prehensile tail that anyone has ever seen, and that's not just because it's probably the ONLY fight scene between ships and a giant spiny <spoiler> with a prehensile tail.

It's got a Swamp Thing named Mr. Yuan.

Aaron

Morning all

BESW

There are some amazing lines delivered totally straight: "We can't aim the toxic fish!"

@Aaron Evenin'.

@MC_Hambone We meet again, at last!

MC_Hambone

@BESW Ahoy!

there was something you wanted to tell me?

BESW

12:27 PM

@MC_Hambone Oh, right, you asked about why anyone would need to write "Yo'ña" instead of "Yona."

MC_Hambone

ahhh yes

is it just a pronunciation thing?

BESW

Short version: the local language, Chamorro, is dying before it manages to really get out from under the influence of colonial orthography. Which means that orthography is an important, politicised issue.

While everyone knows how to say "Yona" (although most non-locals have to settle for "Zohtnya" or "Johtnya"), it's pretty poor orthography.

The capital, for instance, was re-named "Hagåtña" from "Agana" about fifteen years ago.

And there's still debate about "Merizo" vs "Malesso."

MC_Hambone

I assume they are pronounced the same way?

BESW

Welllll. Depends who you ask.

MC_Hambone

XD

BESW

12:31 PM

"Agana" was generally pronounced "uh-GANN-yuh."

Hagåtña is "Huh-GOT-nyuh."

MC_Hambone

This is why I am very interested in Esperanto... it apparently has a uniform pronunciation, spelling and grammar structure

even though it is technically not a "real" language

doppelgreener

BESW

There are currently three different competing Chamorro orthographies, depending on whether you want to choose "the way my grandparents spelt it which is heavily colonialised," "the internationally accepted orthography for the way we pronounce it," or "a new invented way that isn't beholden to any outside influence."

@MC_Hambone That is the trouble, of course: living languages change, and that's good.

But it means they can't be truly standardised.

Heck, between the north and south ends of this island you'll get differences in dialect, much less going to the other islands in the chain.

lisardggY

People aren't unambiguous and logical, so expecting their language to be is unrealistic.

BESW

Get any three Chamorros in a room and ask them to pronounce nginge', and you'll get at least two different versions of it.

doppelgreener

12:35 PM

@lisardggY oh, don't worry, the lojban thing itself is just a slightly derailment for the point of "yeah but it'd be with the kinds of people who learn esperanto"

BESW

Interestingly, it's less important in the northern islands where more people are fluent in Chamorro.

If you don't speak it, the orthography becomes very important.

lisardggY

There was a guy on StackOverflow a while back, as well as on Programmers.SE and English.SE, who insisted that a completely unambiguous grammar for the English language could be expressed as a formal language using BNF notation.

BESW

But if you speak it, then no matter how it's written, you can say it out loud and figure out what's meant. Thus it doesn't matter so much whether you use a "t" or a glotta or a "d" to indicate a glottal stop, compared to if you're only used to reading the language.

lisardggY

When his questions were answered with "natural languages don't work that way", he insisted that they do, and it's people who are speaking them wrong.

MC_Hambone

I just think that at the very least a standardized spelling and pronunciation at the outset of a language would be good

BESW

12:37 PM

@lisardggY That sounds insanely boring.

lisardggY

@MC_Hambone For that you'd need a language with an established outset.

BESW

@MC_Hambone "At the outset of a language"? Excuse me, I need to go snerk in corner.

The outset of a language has no spelling because languages begin as oral-only.

By the time someone comes up with something more symbol-based than pictographs, it's too far gone for standardisation.

MC_Hambone

Exactly... I imagine a future where the world unites under 1 new govt. and everyone learns a new language that way we unite under the combined brother hood of humanity and are not conquered by a specific nation

BESW

And in many languages, like Chamorro, it's not even the native speakers who are choosing the orthography.

MC_Hambone

since Esperanto is a made up language constructed for ease of use, it seems like a logical choice

BESW

12:40 PM

@MC_Hambone I do believe that at some point in the future everyone will speak a common tongue in addition to their native language, but I strongly doubt it will come about so formally as everyone deciding to choose a universal language.

MC_Hambone

I can dream :D

BESW

It'll be a slow, organic process, not a UN resolution.

lisardggY

@MC_Hambone At some point in European history, Latin was a nearly universal language spoken throughout the continent. Within bare centuries, local dialects evolved into the different languages.

BESW

It's happened in localised areas--Latin, and later the lingua franca, for example.

And in many places in Asia, English is the language of business.

lisardggY

@BESW And even then, local dialects evolve within a handful of years. Indian English has only been in existence for less than two centuries, and it already has a relatively established and coherent grammar and vocabulary distinct from other dialects.

BESW

12:43 PM

@lisardggY I know, right? Isn't it awesome?

MC_Hambone

I gotta say my theory is kinda based in my guilt about how the USA is perceived by the rest of the world. ie we don't want to learn other languages because "english is the best"

lisardggY

Languages differ because people differ.

BESW

This leads to various notions about the need for a touchstone to maintain a universal dialect/tongue.

But that gets into my specific visions of the future, which are not necessarily relephant to this particular discussion.

MC_Hambone

i think the internet can bind the planet together, and allow people from all corners of the globe to communicate easily.... would that not lead to a global dialect?

lisardggY

@MC_Hambone I think it's done quite the opposite.

BESW

12:45 PM

The Internet is already playing a part in that, but it can't do it on its own because the Internet is just a tool.

lisardggY

It's made it easier for smaller and smaller subgroups to socialize, thus creating their own dialects, not necessarily grounded in geographical location.

BESW

We see unification and division in the Internet.

MC_Hambone

hmmm if the internet can't do it it makes one wonder if it is possible at all

Phil

Can someone with a better understanding of the system check my edit here please?

0

Q: Can characers who are not barbarians take the Whirling Frenzy alternate class feature?

For example, if I were to take two levels in the Half-Orc Paragon class, can I replace rage gained this way with Whirling Frenzy? What if the ability to fly into a rage is gained from the Druidic Avenger class, wich is a variant class itself?

dnd-3.5e

BESW

@lisardggY says it well: the Internet is eradicating many geographic barriers, but without conscious effort it erects other barriers.

MC_Hambone

12:46 PM

or at least if the internet cant be the tool that facilitates it....

BESW

For example, the very nature of the Internet ostracises those without the time, resources, and training to use it.

lisardggY

Also, 15 years ago any Israeli on the internet could be counted on to have at least a basic grasp of English. This is no longer true, since a) technical barriers to using Hebrew (and other languages, of course) have mostly vanished, and b) local services in native languages are available.

BESW

@MC_Hambone No tool can accomplish good without conscious effort directing its use.

MC_Hambone

I was taking a psychology class last semester and I remember the professor talking about how there always needs to be an "us and them" in the world. people need to feel like they are part of a special community that has aspects unique to them... perhaps we wont unify as a planet until we all have a common enemy, like Aliens....

Phil

Thanks @JonathanHobbs for editing my edit :o)

Next time I'll probably leave well alone

BESW

12:49 PM

@MC_Hambone I personally think that's hooey. But we're touching on issues of the fundamental nature of humankind, which I have strong faith-based beliefs about.

MC_Hambone

just as a quick aside @BESW, I finally got my Spaceship Zero Book!

BESW

(It's like saying that a kid can't be toilet trained because he's been in diapers all his life; at some point he gets old enough to learn.)

@MC_Hambone Cool!

lisardggY

@BESW :That's a whole other issue, and one I agree with you. It's especially blatant in tech-blogs who hover around the silicon valley echo-chamber, where various startups believe they're changing the world, but only doing so for people with smartphones and 24/7 broadband mobile connections.

BESW

@lisardggY It's also VERY prevalent in education. [sigh]

On the other hand, I'm fascinated by places that leapfrogged fifty years of technology in a decade.

MC_Hambone

@BESW I'm not saying it's true, but i can see it's merit. I have a personality flaw where if something is generally considered popular I will rebel against it and find a more fringe thing to like. I prefer smaller communities, and finding things I enjoy doing that arent widely considered popular makes me feel comfortable.

my version of the "us and them" thing ;)

BESW

12:52 PM

There are places in the Philippines that don't have electricity and have never had a land-based phone line, but everyone has cell phones which they use to text. There are little huts with gas-powered generators for charging your phones.

lisardggY

It's not only technology that forms invisible barriers. I know people who are very excited about using the internet for direct involvement of citizens in government, to get closer to the ideal of a direct democracy.

doppelgreener

@Phil It was a good edit, I just have certain philosophies I will always edit stuff to conform with. this being: the question should not reside only in the title

if the question is entirely in the title, the title is saying too much or more than necessary, or the body too little.

2

lisardggY

Not only is access to technology an invisible filter to those who get to participate, people often forget that governing is often conducted in legal language and official jargon that, in itself, blocks out people from participating.

doppelgreener

the other one is if someone wants to use code for key words it's going away and getting replaced with italics

... but wax eagle always just uses code for keywords anyway xD

BESW

@MC_Hambone It's definitely something we have to struggle to overcome, but humanity's history is one of an ever-expanded sense of "us"-ness: the nuclear family, the tribe, the city, the nation...

MC_Hambone

12:54 PM

@lisardggY that is so true, I am taking a political science course this semester and we have had to wade through some legal jargon.... I can understand itbut it takes a good 4 or 5 read throughs to fully understand what things mean

doppelgreener

@Phil so, go ahead and continue making edits. but if the entirety of the question is found in the title and not the body, or it contains code, i'll come along and edit that stuff too.

MC_Hambone

@BESW It's part of evolution, you needed to be part of the tribe or community in order to survive, there was strength in numbers and if you went out on your own you'd likely not survive. So people's tendencies to be attracted to a community is due to our innate sense of "belonging=safety"

wax eagle

@JonathanHobbs I use it in specific instances, partly because I use italics for emphasis a lot

Aaron

Wonderful little narrative if anyone wants to read it.

thatcleochick.deviantart.com/art/…

MC_Hambone

@Aaron what's it about?

Aaron

1:00 PM

@MC_Hambone A wanderer.

It is only a minute read. Really short but really good.

BESW

@MC_Hambone That's definitely part of it (though it may be a bit chicken/egg), but my view expands on it a bit, seeing the process of an ever-expanding human civilisation, in which we mature and our physical and spiritual capacities advance both individually and societally. It's not a clean, neat process, but it's overall forward-moving.

We're in a time of intense change right now, which is necessarily tumultuous--think of it as humanity's teens, with all the temper tantrums and zits and sulks and embarrassing clothing, but also the sudden expansion of our capacity in understanding and accomplishment which inevitably leads to adulthood.

doppelgreener

@waxeagle alright. i did leave your more recent instance alone xD

MC_Hambone

@Aaron ineed it is pretty good!

BESW

@Aaron An excellent use of verb tense.

MC_Hambone

@BESW i can dig that. nice metaphor

BESW

1:06 PM

@MC_Hambone I've been accused of being a dewy-eyed optimist, but I don't pretend what we're going through is fun or easy. It takes a lot of hard work to get through being a teenager with minimal scarring, and we're pretty far dug in already. I believe we will come through, but how bad it gets in the process is up to how hard we work.

MC_Hambone

is this period of time Humanity's "Star Wars Episode V?"

Aaron

@MC_Hambone @BESW She has quite a few really good short stories. Just read another I really like thatcleochick.deviantart.com/art/The-Library-405070761

BESW

@MC_Hambone Something like that. [grin] Humanity goes through cycles, big and small, of advancement and fallback. But it's not a circle, it's a spiral: we always wind up ahead of where we were before, we don't go back quite as far as we did before.

MC_Hambone

@Aaron I generally don't read the fic on deviantart, but that one was pretty good. I may look at more of her stuff

@BESW as long as it's a progressive spiral heading towards a good outcome, and not one that is spinning out of control

BESW

@MC_Hambone Well, that's where it gets spiritual: this belief comes from my religion, and includes the confidence that it's part of God's plan for us.

Aaron

1:11 PM

@MC_Hambone The libarary has a few stories about it. It is really well put together for such short stories.

MC_Hambone

@BESW I don't have that luxury, but I still think you're right. Other Atheists you meet might be more pessimistic, but I think over all humanity can work together. (although, technically I am not an "atheist" but that is a conversation for another day.)

BESW

Our current time is extremely chaotic because we're growing up so fast. We have to put away the things that were appropriate for children and take up the things that are appropriate for youth. And some of us don't want to.

There's a lot of kicking and screaming involved.

Joshua Aslan Smith

good mornign everyone

BESW

[wave]

MC_Hambone

howdy

Joshua Aslan Smith

1:20 PM

@MC_Hambone agnostic?

MC_Hambone

in the most basic sense, yes

Joshua Aslan Smith

So this a conversation about globalism/citizenoftheworldness vs. nationalism?

among other things

trying to read up through the log

MC_Hambone

I am not sure if there is A god or many gods or what, and as far as I can tell if there was one the most we can assume is that it was the cause of the Big Bang, after that , in my opinion, the god(s) has been rather absent in our development.

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith Actually it started as a conversation about language and the potential for a universal one, and yes, among many other things.

Joshua Aslan Smith

haha gotcha

english? I dont think youll ever have a true universal language and if you did it would quickly fracture in a manner of a generation or 2 due to different pronunciations and regional dialects that would arise

MC_Hambone

1:24 PM

My real beef is not with the idea of a higher power, it's more with how people have perverted religions towards their own agendas

Aaron

@MC_Hambone "My god is on MY side"

Joshua Aslan Smith

so you mean religion and politics?

MC_Hambone

and that's what every one else said, @JoshuaAslanSmith. I was trying to hold out hope a language like Esperanto that was manufactured for uniform spelling and grammar and pronunciation would survive as such

BESW

@MC_Hambone I'm right there with you on that one, as you know.

lisardggY

@JoshuaAslanSmith That was my conclusion as well.

Phil

1:25 PM

@JonathanHobbs Fair point, thank you :o)

Joshua Aslan Smith

no way it survives, there is a natural progression toward complexity and fracturing in languages

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith I think it would work if there was a touchstone.

doppelgreener

@Phil You're welcome; sorry to leave you feeling discouraged!

MC_Hambone

The infamous tower of Babble...

Joshua Aslan Smith

Its a pet hobby of mine to read up on this because theres a lot of study about this that goes on at University of Pennsylvania because Philadelphia and the mid-atlantic dialect/accent is one of the most changed versions of english

doppelgreener

1:26 PM

@MC_Hambone Tower of Babel!

(same pronunciation though)

BESW

But a touchstone like that would have to be remarkable. I think I know what it will be, but again that comes back to the fact that my beliefs about the future universal language come from the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh.

doppelgreener

(unless you say it bay-bel but I have no idea which one is right)

Joshua Aslan Smith

bah-bel?

MC_Hambone

yeah... but babble means speaking jibberish (bad joke, i'm sorry :P)

Joshua Aslan Smith

aka spokenwise short for bah-bel-lon

BESW

1:27 PM

BAYb-el.

doppelgreener

@BESW rhyming with fable! Ok.

MC_Hambone

despite my religious views now, I did spend the first 18 years of my life involved with the Episcopal faith

Joshua Aslan Smith

this reminds me there was a word I really wanted to look up in the OED for its etymology and I cant remember what it was

lisardggY

Etymonline claims that there's no etymological connection between babble and babel. Hmpf.

doppelgreener

@lisardggY Argh! As if!

BESW

1:29 PM

@lisardggY Folk etymologies strike again!

doppelgreener

Wow it's true

Joshua Aslan Smith

no yeah I was about to say its probably derived from barbar and lo and behold it is

lisardggY

I usually pronounce it "babble", probably because I'm influenced by the Hebrew pronunciation, which is "bah-VELL"

doppelgreener

there are some old norse and latin words it's closer to

BESW

> barbarian: PIE root *barbar- echoic of unintelligible speech of foreigners

doppelgreener

1:30 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith barbar? i find this relephant

Joshua Aslan Smith

basically bar sorta equals blah in ancient greek

so the barbars (turks etc.) to the greeks were named such because their language was unintelligible to the greeks

BESW

@JonathanHobbs I award you one squee.

lisardggY

@JoshuaAslanSmith Yeah. Etymologically speaking, we're this close to have Conan the Blahblahrian.

Joshua Aslan Smith

thus barbarian in western culture really simply means someone you cant understand

but between the vandals and the visigoths (the word vandal as a noun for example) we think of them as cultureless looters

see also the Chinese version of barbarian (we are all barbarians to them because we do not follow the teachings of the master)

MC_Hambone

@JoshuaAslanSmith I follow the teachings of The Doctor

doppelgreener

1:33 PM

@BESW thank you, i will treasure it and keep it safe and well

BESW

> One day I shall come back. Yes, I shall come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

...no, I don't have that prepped and ready to copy-paste at a moment's notice. [hides .txt file]

Joshua Aslan Smith

kickstarter.com/projects/jonshafer/…

MC_Hambone

@BESW hahahah :D

doppelgreener

@BESW So, River Song said she hates stories about wizards because they always turn out to be him, but now he sounds like Jesus and a ton of other prophets.

And if he was Jesus, that'd explain coming back after his crucifixion and a nap quite neatly.

Joshua Aslan Smith

The messianic figure is heavily worked into western heroic stories

BESW

1:36 PM

It's one of the... awkward... things about the Doctor.

Joshua Aslan Smith

regardless of your own personal believes its basically become the blueprint for heroic sacrifice in western culture. hell Conan even gets nailed to a tree

BESW

He's the upper-class Brit with the advanced technology and culture who waltzes into someone else's place, takes over and saves them from themselves.

Granted, then he leaves, which isn't really in the colonial pattern.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw classic white man's burden in literature

BESW

I'm terribly amused that Diamanda Hagan's main criticism of the Ninth Doctor was that he's lower class.

doppelgreener

@JoshuaAslanSmith haaaa oh goodness

MC_Hambone

1:38 PM

@JonathanHobbs in that regard, if i remember the accounts of the New Testament the apostles and followers he met after the ressurection did not recognize him.... regeneration?

doppelgreener

@MC_Hambone the accounts of the new testament were written several decades after the fact and in a few cases, by a disciple of one of the disciples who actually saw him.

it's probably safe to say that could've been glossed over or missed

Joshua Aslan Smith

@MC_Hambone No only thomas doubted the truth thinking he was seeing something, when he appeared to them in the home they were in

I can quote the scripture

doppelgreener

oh wait

durr durr now i see what you mean

@MC_Hambone yes perfect

wax eagle

@JonathanHobbs 2/4 are believed to be first hand accounts (Mat, John), Mark is traditionally thought to be largely dictated by Peter, and Luke was written by the same guy who wrote Acts, a Greek doctor

Joshua Aslan Smith

correct!

doppelgreener

1:40 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith yeah but the others were like: "wow this guy is crazy arrogant and eccentric there's basically no way it could be anyone else"

MC_Hambone

@JoshuaAslanSmith what about Mary Magdalen? Wasn't she the woman you he asked "woman why do you weep?" and she said because her teacher had been killed.... for a moment she didnt know who he was when he talked to her

Joshua Aslan Smith

Luke's gospel was written for a roman audience and thus probably the most easily read by a modern audience in the way he paces the story and how he describes the events.

doppelgreener

@JoshuaAslanSmith i haven't heard this specifically before; what was his connection to the original events? was it first-hand, second, third..?

MC_Hambone

@JoshuaAslanSmith dunno if that is true, but Luke was always my favorite book.... I am not entirely sure if it completely unrelated to my love of star wars though...

we need a fifth gospel, the book of Han

Joshua Aslan Smith

@MC_Hambone comparing luke to john right now because I feel what you are describing sounds more like john

Luke was Paul's right hand man after Paul and Barnabas had a falling out

wax eagle

1:44 PM

@JonathanHobbs it's in Matt 28, so firsthandish as far we know.

Joshua Aslan Smith

thats paul of the saul to paul conversion

doppelgreener

@waxeagle oh ok!

BESW

@MC_Hambone The Book of Chewbacca is difficult to translate.

MC_Hambone

full disclosure I am only relaying what I remember.... I am not a religious scholar by any stretch of the imagination

wax eagle

@JonathanHobbs check that, the specific reference is in John 20

Joshua Aslan Smith

1:45 PM

While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. 16But their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 17And he said to them, “What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?” And they stood still, looking sad.

MC_Hambone

@BESW I am pretty sure that just recounts the tales of how Jesus had issues with his temper, flipping tables in the temple and ripping arms off the droids when losing at various games.

Joshua Aslan Smith

so luke notes that there is divine cause for the lack or recognition

14Having said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus. 15Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.”

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith that's one of the oddest stories in the NT IMO

Joshua Aslan Smith

I mean There are plenty of points in the Bible where God removes, restores, or alters the sight of someone

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith aye, and several places where it notes the hardening and softening of hearts. It's clear from scripture that God has the power to change minds/hearts/senses

Joshua Aslan Smith

1:47 PM

for reference Im using the ESV version

doppelgreener

> “They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” 14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

BESW

The notion of a person being unable to see spiritual truths right before them is common to all religions.

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith that's about the clearest english version out there right now

doppelgreener

@MC_Hambone Mary Magdalene didn't recognise him! His own lover! DEFINITELY REGENERATION

Joshua Aslan Smith

Yeah Im a big fan of the ESV as much as I enjoy some of the old timey phrasing in KJ or NKJ

BESW

1:49 PM

That's one of the fun things about the prophecies of Christ's return: simultaneously unnoticed and announced by trumpets.

Obv. lots of metaphor being flung around most times someone goes blind.

MC_Hambone

@JonathanHobbs i knew it wasn't just Thomas! I still go to church on Xmas and Easter at my parents behest.... so the Resurrection story is one that sticks with me after 8 years of secularism.

Joshua Aslan Smith

right, but you were saying different face ala doctor who from regeneration and I said only thomas because only thomas needed to physically inspect Christ to verify it was him.

doppelgreener

\o/

I haven't ever really heard it in full.

Joshua Aslan Smith

its a super short read available for free on the Internets and your phone (with audio readings for certain versions like ESV)

bible.com

wax eagle

@JonathanHobbs its worth your time to read the gospels for the cultural context at the very least :)

Joshua Aslan Smith

1:52 PM

or simply the Bible app

doppelgreener

Australia is pretty secular, and my parents decided they didn't really want me brought up on the stuff taught in church. (This probably being largely motivated by their perspectives following theological study.)

wax eagle

(John is a good one to start with)

doppelgreener

They decided to let me work things out my own way, and I'm happily atheist.

MC_Hambone

yea but not all the people that meet the Doctor after a regeneration (with out actually witnessing the regeneration) need to physically inspect him.

doppelgreener

@waxeagle Oh? For our culture?

MC_Hambone

1:54 PM

@JonathanHobbs Same here, but as I currently live under their roof, I abide by their rules. xmas and easter services is a small sacrifice to be able to have a ncie place to live while jobless and in school :D

wax eagle

@JonathanHobbs western culture is heavily influenced by the ideas of christianity, getting the context for where it came from is worthwhile :)

MC_Hambone

they know I am , what I like to call Antitheistic, and they respect that, so it's all gravy here :D

Joshua Aslan Smith

@JonathanHobbs Australia was until 1986 a British Dominion. British culture is inexorably intertwined with the history of Christianity

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Everything from Bob Dylan to Alien 3 to Hamlet to His Dark Materials and Lord of the Rings makes more sense if you've read the gospels.

doppelgreener

@MC_Hambone I guess that's why I haven't heard the resurrection story in full actually! I haven't been to easter services. Just visit the xmas ones with my parents or relatives, and then it's about the wise men and etc.

Joshua Aslan Smith

1:55 PM

its basically the french revolution of religion, much of culture is in reaction to or against it

doppelgreener

@BESW @Joshua @waxeagle Whoa ok! I hadn't considered this, so thanks. Maybe I will one day!

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Nifty thing to know: the (~~three~~) wise men were Zoroastrians.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@JonathanHobbs Pick up a copy of Handel's the Messiah and listen to the whole thing as well for another take on the whole Christ story.

doppelgreener

@BESW What's this mean?

BESW

@JonathanHobbs a) the number of wise men is... not as fixed as modern traditions would imply. b) Zoroastrianism was a v. cool religion with some astonishingly specific prophecies about future Messengers.

Joshua Aslan Smith

1:58 PM

@JonathanHobbs theres a lot of academic and theological debate (still ongoing as far as I know) about the origin and nature of the 3 wisemen

Biblical Magi

The Magi ( or ; Greek: μάγοι, magoi), also referred to as the (Three) Wise Men or (Three) Kings were, in the Gospel of Matthew and Christian tradition, a group of distinguished foreigners who visited Jesus after his birth, bearing gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. They are regular figures in traditional accounts of the nativity celebrations of Christmas and are an important part of Christian tradition. According to Matthew, the only one of the four Canonical gospels to mention the Magi, they were the first religious figures to worship Jesus. It states that "they" came "from the ...

for a super not authoritative source on it

BESW's Spoil-Lair

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