Aaand my carefully-calibrated plans to match up who can attend which day with how each person's plot arc is moving? [flush] Half of tomorrow's participants can't make it.

Whoops, did I put that there? Oh look, it has a bounty too.

Also, I kinda like how putting that bounty on put my rep at exactly 777. Maybe I'll get lucky! :D

Good luck.

Thankies

Anyone know how to get 2nd level divine spells sooner than class level 3? (dnd3.x)

Punpun.

besides Punpun

I want to get 1st level in mystic wonderer, but that'd require 3 lvls in cleric unless i can find a way around that.

@Dorian Divine metamagic (heighten spell)?

Wouldn't you still need the ability to cast those spells though?

I see nothing in the text of either of those feats that says anything to that effect.

Mystic Wanderer requires the ability to cast 2nd level divine spells.

unless you know of a better way to get charisma to AC that isn't paladin or battledancer (the former because paladin code, the latter because dragon mag is forbidden)

@Dorian Versatile Spellcaster, maybe?

(Spontaneously casting cure or inflict is spontaneously casting, isn't it?)

@Metool There is also the spontaneous cleric/druid variants.

@Metool And how many levels is that going to take? Seems like I'd be better off taking Cleric3/Mystic Wanderer1 :P

@Dorian One or more levels, an item, two feats. How many levels in an arcane casting class do you have already?

None.

I'm building a Warlock, and was looking at dips for AC bonuses, because alternative glaivelock style build

I will likely have a very high wis and cha, also reason I'm looking for ways to maximize on these high attributes.

ok

Warlock 1 with Precocious Apprentice (you qualify for it on account of having an arcane caster level) and Ascetic Mage

you'll need IUS to grab the latter feat, sadly

a monk's belt would then give you +Cha to AC

that would still take two feats I'm unlikely to use and an item :(

(yeah, sadly)

(dipping monk drops it from three feats to two, but eww)

... actually, I was wrong again. The simplest and most powerful way to get Cha to AC is to take one level of the Ghost Template Class. May or may not fit character

taking Ghostly Grasp would let you be treated as corporeal when hitting things

because Eldritch Glaive is a corporeal thing

course, you'd be dead

and have all sorts of campaign-breaking balance issues

uh... what other ways... hrm

Nymphs and Force Dragons.

or Gloura

but presumably, those are way more levels than he wants

Ghost won't work. Need Con for this build.

Doesn't need to be high Con, but I need it nonetheless.

@Forrestfire definitely way more.

hrm

looking like paladin2 is my best bet. but one of our party members is evil (though he hasn't done anything that bad except to actual bad people...)

using precocious apprentice and the two binding feats to get into Anima Mage would grab you Tenebrous at what, level 8? That'd less you toss a rebuke into Divine Shield on a mithral buckler every 5 rounds

for +Cha to shield bonus

costs three (well, four) feats, or two (+one metamagic) feats and a one-level dip

but it's something, I guess

also, depending on how your DM interprets grammar and RAW vs RAI, you'd be able to toss on neat metamagic stuff to your eldritch blasts

@Forrestfire Yes, well. I've stopped putting in effort to try helping him since I realised that he's either incapable of presenting all the variables for a problem, or unwilling to, so every suggestion to any problem he asks for help with is met by opposition by a previously unknown restriction or requirement.

like Twin Spell Eldritch Glaive

@BESW good point

@Dorian: full build please?

It's like finding that you're playing Battleship instead of chess.

=_=

I'd totally play battleshipchess

"Knight to E5"

"Miss"

"Damn."

@Forrestfire If I knew what I was playing going in, maybe.

know what, nevermind. I'll just continue to stare at charts as the fever and flu medicine work their hypnotic freakout on my brain.

well, if you're unwilling to share the build

I guess we can't help

I'm sorry

giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus

thanks for all the wonderful help guys, thought the chat was for discussion.

is your best bet for finding a good thing

that's what I'm looking at forrest

uh... well

it is for discussion?

as for the build, that's the problem, I'm undecided on the build and viewing my options.

So list what you're undecided about?

and i want to finish it before sunday.

(We're discussing things. Currently discussing the fact that it's difficult to offer advice on a build where we only know a few factors, and new factors are added each time a new offer of advice is given)

/me shrug

... huh. This chat doesn't do that.

I know I'm going Warlock and Hellfire Warlock, I'm making a Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold.

I'm taking Feral and Saint templates.

Neat.

@Forrestfire - We use [brackets] for actions

ah, thanks

I might take Enlightened Fist if I can.

[Demonstrative case]

[actions]

I'm dipping Binder to offset the Con damage.

I'm trying to find ways to buff the things I'll be using most, AC, Tumble, and dex based melee attacks.

melee being eldritch glaive

So... Venerable Dragonwrought Warlock 2/Binder 1/Anima Mage 6/Hellfire Warlock 3... actually runs counter to Saint

because it'd work by calling up Orcus' lost marbles

and using them as a shield

@Lord_Gareth [uses brackets self-referentially]

... Damn. Spark of Life doesn't work to enable Hellfiring on a Ghost

that'd make everything a hundred times easi-oh

wait, no, the horrible Ghostwalk rules don't work either

Tried looking at Risen Martyr too, but again, dead thing.

Looks like I'll just either have to go without or I'll take that pali2 dip and we'll see how long I can keep up the ignorant act.

because of the need to use Eidoloncer. Outsider Ghost Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Warlock x/Binder 1/Eidoloncer n/hellfire warlock 3 could work. It would, amusingly, require you to be raised for three levels as you took Hellfire Warlock

then die and be ghosted again afterwards

also, requires Ghostwalk Ghost, which is all sorts of awful, rules-design-wise

You do get to be an outsider (incorporeal) for +0 LA, though

just adds a bunch of hoops any time you feel like multiclassing. Thought bottle can help

thought bottle was banned

heh

Well, getting Raised every level you want to multiclass would work, as long as you could convince the DM that the character has a perfectly valid reason to ghost around every time he dies

[note that this is mostly a nonserious suggestion, because while it works, it's a hassle, and so far from RAI you can't see it with a telescope]

Hold on, is Eidoloncer only there for the free multiclassing?

Any time you level up while being a ghost, you must take Eidolon or Eidoloncer

Any time you're raised, these are converted to levels of your choosing

Aah... Well...

Actually, this concept is sounding kinda cool. Someone who took the revolving door of the afterlife super-seriously, and just stopped caring about death. Sometimes he's alive, sometimes he's not, he's still walking around either way

/me saves concept for future use

... dammit.

Explain this in a bit more detail... You're on like, chapter 12 and I'm still on chapter 1 in this book [confused]

ok

@Forrestfire [takes notes for Undead Edison plot in ARRG]

heh

So. Ghostwalk Ghost is a +0 template, from Ghostwalk (obviously). It makes you an incorporeal outsider who can only be corporeal in Manifest or through spells (we don't care about corporeality, so travel away). It is only +0 because while you have the template

any level-ups you get must be taken with either the Eidolon or Eidoloncer class

when you're raised, you have a Life Epiphany, and all of your levels in those classes are converted to other levels

like when a Paladin turns into a Blackguard

following so far

Note that any time your number of Ghost Class levels exceeds your number of other levels, you get shunted into the afterlife

So

You'd basically be a ghost for (n/2) levels, where n is your character level

Get raised, convert levels, then die.

Repeat

(obviously, your Epiphany is that you like being all floaty and see-through)

How does that let me use Hellfire Blast though?

Ghostwalk Ghost (as noted above) makes you an Outsider

not an undead

Outsider (Incorporeal, Augmented Dragon), specifically, in this case

you still have a Con score

Aah... Hmm.....

Didn't catch that bit.

this is all very silly unless you make the character fit (like with the example characterization)

hence it being a mostly nonserious suggestion

It does work, though! So there's that.

Well... this seems like quite an interesting character to build, but it would take a certain type of DM.

(personally, I love this sort of thing, and would allow the hell out of it. I'm not your DM)

Right. My DM would certainly ban it. And make it count against me for Saint as well most likely.

huh

oh well

On the plus side, I now have a very silly build to toss into my Stuff I'd Like To Play But Never Will Get The Chance To folder

said something like most alignment stuff he isn't worried about, but paladins, knights, and exalted/vile stuff he enforces strictly

nothing in this is vile

Ghosts can be any alignment

@Forrestfire NPI, I'm sure.

The exalted path isn't supposed to abuse things.

there's no personality change unless they get hit by the Calling (Ghost Levels > Other Levels) AND they're stuck in a dimensional anchor

(if the exalted path isn't supposed to abuse mechanics, they wouldn't be allowed to take Saint :V )

Right... But that's what he said.

yeah

Even as a CG Saint I'm going to have to eventually smite one of my own party members, I can see it now.

fun

Not fun. This chara probably won't live through it.

Suggestion: drop Saint, it's not worth the trouble

(Aha! A reason to use ghost!)

;)

Obligatory link to Making the Tough Decisions.

Well, got any solid suggestions for a Yoda-esque Warlock/Hellfire Warlock build?

if you're foreseeing having to cause PvP because of a template, I definitely suggest not using the tempalte

template*

Looking into things that add nice bonuses to Wis, Cha, or Dex.

It's not worth it, and breaks groups unless it's something everyone wants

One of the party members is LE. I know this, others know this, characters don't (yet)

do you have any amount of free LA?

He has done technically nothing very bad, except kill (and drink the blood of one) evil doers.

No.

or would you have eaten the Saint LA straight?

But we have LA buy off.

ah ok

And we have some interesting enacted rules regarding LA buy off...

@Forrestfire If you're foreseeing having to cause anything you don't want to happen because of what your character would do, I suggest re-evaluating your game priorities and getting better control over the fictional being whose actions you're entirely responsible for.

Including the option to immediately buy off LA if you are above a certain level, no matter when you attained it. Basically... If you have no LA and you are above lv3 and you gain +1 LA, you can buy it off on the spot.

(Peronsally, I've had to cause problems because of what my character would do, but I checked OoC with everyone to make sure I should go through with it)

(and then I rolled exceptionally poorly and got stepped on by a zombie dragon)

(into unconsciousness)

(it then flew off, and became a personal enemy)

@Forrestfire Then that means you didn't have to; if they'd disagreed you had sufficient control to make the character do something else.

BESW: The point of problem I foresee isn't being forced to do something, but rather being forced to make a choice I don't want to make. Either smite the evildoer, or lose my template.

so start with lose the template

because smite the evildoer has horrible OoC consequences

Well the rest of the party would probably be onboard with it.

I know the character's player really wouldn't care XD

ah.

see above regarding depending on the group

And so long as there is plenty of good reason, the rest of the party would jump at it. One is a cleric of selune, the other likes to hurt things (and is CG leaning towards CN sometimes)

He also likes to demolish taverns oddly enough.

In any case, we're back to my initial suggestion, regarding a Yoda Hellfire Glaivelock: Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Warlock 2/Binder 1/Anima Mage 6/Hellfire Warlock 3. It's decent enough at the yoda-ing, it's decent enough at the binding, and gets Cha to AC at some point, on account of being able to call up Tenebrous and run him through a mithral buckler.

Seems we get attacked in taverns/inns frequently, and he smashes the enemy, and half the building.

I have a build that would probably be more fun to play (to me) and end up being similar, but is not warlock, hellfire or otherwise

The binder is for Naberius

yeah

Because con damage.

Wasn't really going in it for anything more than binding Naberius. If he hadn't banned Dragon I'd be set >.<

Alternate build that I'd use, because I prefer having a tiny bit more options: Sorcerer 2/Binder 1/Anima Mage 5/Abjurant Champion x, using a single persisted Thunderlance for having a weapon with 20ft reach (inclusive), that subs Cha for Str, is one or two-handed, and does 3d6 base damage. Use Greater Magic Weapon on it, since it's a weapon, and then it's enchanted. Build comes online late, though. Depends on starting level.

Even those that ban dragon mag usually allow the compendium.

In a hilarious game where the DM allows RAW exploits, you'd only need Anima Mage 4

because Anima Mage 4 is, in my opinion, one of the most busted levels in the game (assuming RAW)

but that's unlikely to be useful

DM allows some RAW exploits, but not all.

Could always run it by him, heh

Without Saint I'd need another way to get Wis to AC also.... Hmm...

Usually running it by him causes him to ban it.

less heh

well, even if it's moot, it's funny: the text of Anima Mage's Vestige Metamagic ability states that you get the ability at level 4, and that you can use it 1/day at level 5. Text trumps table, so you get it at 4... at which point, it's a (Su) ability with no listed use limite

limit*

meaning it defaults to at-will

it is a stupid, stupid typo

In practice I've seen outrageous things in game that shouldn't be allowed, but are, and since they are they will continue. If I ask him beforehand, he thinks about it, and bans it. If it's approved, and he finds out in-game how broken it is, he seems to allow it to continue.

So long as it is actually by RAW.

(don't try the exploit, it's dumb and should be confined to TO or a game where you're intentionally not abusing it)

(I'd totally play a wizard who used it to persist like... a pair of thunderlances and wraithstrike, then TWF them and eat tons of penalties to attacks)

(so I could dual-wield 20ft lightning bolts)

(but that's being intentionally bad)

Right.

I don't plan on using that kind of exploit anyways.

yeah, it's dumb.

Anyway, no idea on what to do, honestly.

Foregoing that, if I sack Saint I'll need another Wis to AC source at least. I'll worry about the Cha to AC on my own.

Monk 1?

Monk's Belt?

I'm comparing Monk to Ninja :P

Monk's a better dip than ninja, actually

If your existing features have some way to mimic or acquire a supernatural racial trait from another creature (similar to wild shape with Assume Supernatural Ability), then Nymph becomes an option again.

that could work. It'd be less Yoda at that point, though

(Or any other creature which gets to do that by default.)

Or you could go full Manipulate Form.

And in the interim, what suggestions might you have for templates that can increase Wisdom, Charisma, or Dexterity? I'm willing to deal with a +2 tops, not counting Feral.

Half-Fey is the best one

+2 LA, double land speed flight, +stats

a whole slew of amazing SLAs

immunity to the entire Enchantment school (!)

Was expecting that. Anything else? Half-fey is definitely on my list.

you even get Poor Man's Mindrape

hrm

Phrenic is good

Also someone said Enchantment immunity could be bad?

And Phrenic is also on my list.

it could be bad.

However, if you're subject to an effect that has a save, you can voluntarily lower your immunity

without spending an action, even

Oh? Good to know.

according to the rules on spells and voluntarily foregoing saves

(note: the full rules were not transcribed to the d20srd)

(gotta grab them from the PHB)

Also, DM mentioned being unable to take a level in any other class if you take savage progression levels... glad I spotted the "gaining a template midcampaign" article!

yeah

Had to correct him on tumble rules too today... Said you can't tumble through opponent's squares and I never got around to actually checking into it.

I knew I was right!

the Savage Progression templates online can be multiclassed out of

the ones in Dragon Magazine and Savage Species cannot

because Specific beats General, etc

It may have been a long time since I was able to quote any page from the PHB, DMG, and a handful of other books, but I used those Tumble rules alot!

nice

When I was younger I had little else to do but read and re-read the books when I wasn't able to game lol

You too?

heh

Helped me find some real obscure rules on occasion lol

I only had a few gamer friends, and we never played, so I made characters

I still find character sheets stashed in old moving boxes

or cabinets

Some which I still remember, and have been able to spread to other players.

Led to me having a decent amount of system mastery, which is nice.

Such as the discounted magic items that required things.

(those rules are terrible though)

(also, are guidelines)

True.

Magic item creation rules are broken, the discount sidebar makes it more broken.

yep

hence, guidelines.

on a side note, I'm glad that the groups I'm DMing for are all decent at the rules and system mastery

makes making encounters much more fun

which is best to have a DM that knows the system, works the system, and adapts to keep the balance.

I don't have as much system mastery as I used to, had a long break of no gaming and I haven't been able to focus on it as much as I'd like these days.

I spent a good 4ish years not thinking about anything D&Dish

Ditto.

thankfully, it all came back quickly

Same here, but not everything is as fresh as it used to be. And I didn't get to read alot of the books out there.

Though my 4 years were also flooded with lots of booze. Which didn't help it much.

mine was flooded with a lot of high school

military, hospital, and booze.

oh, and relationship drama.

and depression.

and more booze.

:(

Was quite the dark time in my life. Glad I lived through it.

Not so glad I barely remember most of it though.

I'd rather have painful memories than a blobby mush

:(

One of the reasons I don't drink as much as I used to.

anyway, I'm gonna go. Have a good day.

/night

/other time

Alrighty. Currently looking at the monks belt and the like.

@BESW I believe you mentioned something about emulating racial features? How can I get in on that?

The arson question has votes like crazy

@Dorian Shapechanging cheese of various flavours.

[wave]

Today in Poor Hearing Makes Plots Better: "According to legend, this ancient and rare squirrel was used by Mesopotamian royalty to contact the dead."

"Scroll."

But Merton adds syllables to words when he's excited. Which is most of the time.

(He was the highest bidder on eBay!)

Oh hellfire, a friend of mine has learned well :D He's running an Urban Arcana D20 Modern game, right? And one of the antagonists (not villain) at the moment is a fugitive technomancer

The party's investigator - a police detective that moonlights in supernatural circles - gets an email from an unknown address and clicks it to see what it is.

The explosive runes read, "It's 2014. You should know better than to just open emails."

Boom

Office trashed, under-the-table evidence of supernatural wrongdoings trashed, apartment on fire, hole blown in wall

Detective three stories down on a wrecked car at 3 HP like "The hell even happened"

Delightful

Heee.

It got even better. Technomages can deliver magic over electronic media.

So the bruiser gets this text message, right? Followed by three more.

The first was a suggestion to check his texts

The second was a charm person

Followed by a suggestion that the handsome party face was sleeping with his wife

And a further suggestion that appropriate revenge would be turning him in to the FBI detective looking into his below-the-table activities

Meanwhile, party face gets arrested and has no idea any of this happened

At this point the group has begun to wise up. Phones and computers get turned off, they stop answering calls of any kind, communicate internally through magic only

They get a tip from a trusted source that the guy they're hunting is holed up in the local mall, right?

Nope. Technomancer again; using the cameras to establish line of sight, he summons monsters to start wrecking the joint. Monsters the mundanes can't see

What's left of the party gets dragged in for inciting a riot and destruction of various kinds of property

And will be starting the next session in jail awaiting trial

With only the detective not incarcerated

And the sick bit is, it's one guy, of equal level to the group doing this to them. A guy with no vested interest in seeing them dead, incidentally.

They started investigating him because he furnishes demihumans with the supplies they need to integrate into normal society. Sometimes his clients are not okay people, but he provides the fake IDs, the tax history, the citizenship papers, that kind of thing.

And he got seriously annoyed at the disruption of his income

And is now giving the party, which is not light on spellcasters of its own, an object lesson in how even severely weakened magic is terrifying

So yes, I am pleased with my disciple's work

How's your day going, @BESW?

You really don't want to open that can of worms.

Amusing tale helped?

Not really. It was accompanied by IRL drama, and I'm about a year past being engaged by "creative 3.5 exploits" stories.

[Bro hug]

The last half hour has contained phrases such as adult daycare, ripped out the placenta, and typhoon readiness plan.

Fun.

Welp. Those are some weighty phrases.

You may have an interest in this, @BESW, though you may also wish to save it for a time when you're feeling better. Underlying message is positive

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the support.

...things would be easier if they were predictable. I have a hard time with unexpected transitions.

@BESW A good plot never survives players life

Yar.

But with a plot, there's a box around it. Life doesn't have much of a box.

And the kind of unexpected transitions one gets in life are usually more significant.

[additional brohugs]

Today had three relatively significant "who will be doing what when" changes and an impending natural disaster.

One of those changes was a modification of yesterday's set of "who will be doing what when" changes, which I'd spent significant time accommodating.

@BESW Ah, I know that feeling.

Sidenote: I'm starting hating real life couples who play by chat togheter

@Emrakul Some people think it's nice to have travel and time as a significant factor in roleplaying. So, people either gather in cities, or when they want to go elsewhere they roleplay traveling. Which would be good, if there were people in my location when I wanted to play. Couples don't have this problem. They always have someone traveling with them with whom to play.

I'm a very envyous entity.

@Emrakul Ah, yeah.

@BESW I hope things get better for you soon

don't hesitate to mention anything I can do

> To install or update Windows, it is necessary to install Windows. Cancel Windows' installation? Y/N

(or at least that's my translation of the Italian interface)

Fun.

Y... wait!

@trogdor Thanks. Aside from helping me keep Geek Night regular (and thus helping my tenuous grip on sanity), we might some time need to call on you to keep an eye on my dad for a while. We're trying to keep that as a last resort, though.

@BESW mk