Rationale for Chat Split

user4704

Sep 21, 2015 21:45

What is wrong with the existing site room?

Alec Teal

Sep 21, 2015 22:05

@JoshPetrie it's VERY casual. I sort of want to bring the guild of AI programmers here and I'm looking for people that know their stuff.

user4704

Sep 22, 2015 15:03

@AlecTeal There's a healthy amount of "serious" game development talk in the main room, and it should always be preferred over offtopic conversation. The site has tried having multiple rooms before and it has never gone well; I'd rather we don't do it again.

user4704

SE is also not particularly amenable to the idea of using their chat network to host gatherings for groups outside of the site itself; if you're trying to use this room as a chat room for the AI guild group first, and not trying to bring them to the main GDSE site primarily, I don't think they'll like that.

user4704

(IRC or Slack would be better for that I think.)

Alec Teal

Sep 22, 2015 15:28

@JoshPetrie there's a misunderstanding there.

I do not want to bring the guild here. I said "like" I'm sure. It was an example of a technical community. Also questions about trivial regular expressions (finite state machines welcome!) and 45 minutes on "what is a pointer" are not serious game dev things.

user4704

They're valid and on-topic.

user4704

I don't like the idea of introducing that sort of faux-elitism into the site.

Alec Teal

Well here they will not be! I know this may sound harsh, but the GDSE has a very low barrier to entry, where as the maths site (say) has a high one. I want this to have a higher threshold.

user4704

You don't get the make that decision unilaterally though; it's something you should put to the site community via meta.

Alec Teal

It just sort of happened.

user4704

Sep 22, 2015 15:38

how so?

user4704

There's nothing in the transcript that suggests this room developed organically out of a migrated comment thread or anything. You just appear to have created it.

Alec Teal

My theory is that the other questions and the hardcore-looking LaTeX spook off physicists and the A-level mathematicians.

user4704

I don't think I would agree with that; the chat is extremely low-volume relative to the main site, even in terms of transient users who pop in and never talk or come back.

Alec Teal

Well I'm disgruntled at the ..... 45 minutes on what is a pointer, there's also a lot of.... well I don't really want to give examples on a public thing as that could offend, this isn't a spiteful channel, I hope it'll be one where professionals or skilled armatures can discuss the topic.

user4704

I get that, but this site isn't one where you can just arbitrarily decide to impose new rules, especially rules that could be considered imparting a certain level of technical elitism (who is the arbiter of which question is "too basic" for this room versus the other room, et cetera). You absolutely can't do that.

Alec Teal

Sep 22, 2015 15:42

Either way the math.se site does a good job at (somehow) keeping sub-degree mathematics out. I want to discuss gamedev with people I don't have to explain what stuff is to first.

user4704

As for the other thing, I assume you're referring to the tendency of things to get off-topic there.

Alec Teal

Okay, calling it elitism is wrong. There is a HUGE gap between the questions on this site and problems you'd encounter professionally in the field.

user4704

Yup, but that doesn't mean you can say "you can't ask that here."

user4704

Or you "can't talk about that here."

user4704

This isn't a site just for professionals.

Alec Teal

Sep 22, 2015 15:44

I know. Hence the separate room.

user4704

But still part of the GDSE site.

user4704

If you want to create a separate, long-term/permanent room for the site, you should propose doing so on meta.

Alec Teal

I think you need to stop worrying about people getting hurt. It's not for that at all.

user4704

I'm not worrying about people getting hurt.

Alec Teal

Then what's the problem?

user4704

Sep 22, 2015 15:46

Creating a new room for the site is not something you can do unilaterally. We use meta to talk about and decide, as a community, how the site should run and what its policies should be within the framework of the larger rules of the SE sites.

user4704

Creating a room with these goals in a way that just seems to exclude certain levels-of-experience in the community isn't cool.

Alec Teal

I've not had the best intro to your community, from what I can tell it's 1 guy who's complete a project and 4 guys who worship him. I used the "create room" button. This is really something you should put on the meta if you feel it shouldn't be here.

user4704

This site is far more than the four or five users who regularly hang out over in the main chat room.

Alec Teal

I was also once at the point the others are at. I don't frown upon it or anything. I just want to meet "others" through another venue.

user4704

I don't think this will help that that much. There are much better places to go if you want to talk to fellow professionals in a chat-like context.

Alec Teal

Sep 22, 2015 15:49

Yeah but the chat isn't. Why doesn't matter Hence this one. Please don't overthink it. Look at things like the Game Programming Gems series, they're not elitism, they're great to those on the professional side of the divide becauase it's a book filled with cool stuff others have done.

There are, but I got a nasty slap in the face with this site. I'm always open for another avenue; it harms no one to have it.

Lets take for example my note-to-self about a potential topic:

user4704

@AlecTeal "nasty slap" how so?

Alec Teal

First post. Topic idea: Neural networks in RTS to predict battle outcomes (SC2 as example)

It's not how I imagined a game dev chat would be. Which is fine!

user4704

If you want to know of other places you might try for meeting up with professional developers, I can suggest some. As for this room, you should create a proposal for it on meta and see how the community feels about it the idea.

Alec Teal

Well the community might have scared off people like me, and seriously (I mean this in good faith) there's a create room button. If you feel the name is too similar, we can discuss that. I think you need to take up the create room button with the SE devs.

I wanted something broader than "Engine internals" but still convey it was a technical channel.

user4704

I'd love to take up the 'create room' button with the SE team, but the chat system has always been a third-class citizen for them.

user4704

Sep 22, 2015 15:53

Mostly extra rooms are used for transient, specific discusisons not intended to last long.

user4704

You're trying to create a new permanent room for the site. And that's something the community -- the larger community of the site, not the just the people in the other chat -- have to decide on together.

Alec Teal

This chat may die, I may give up. I do want to take part in this site, but I don't want to be... at the (I don't want to sound elitist!) other end of it. I'd love to see more questions like "after profiling my A* heuristic is too poor" or something, you know?

user4704

Yeah, so do a lot of people, it's been discussed on meta a lot. How to attract more professionals or a more professional level of discourse; the site has a lot of "how do I fix my bug" and "how to unity?" entry-level questions

user4704

But I don't particularly think, given how visible the main site is (the site, not the silly chat room) and how bad the problem is there that just making another hard-to-discover side room will really do anything.

user4704

We're talking about thousands of users a day to the main site versus maybe seven users a day to the chat network, tops.

Alec Teal

Sep 22, 2015 15:57

If you look at most of my answers here they're long and technical answers intended to help people across the "Hello world gulf" - I've not come here to to partition the site. The SE site has a few channels for different languages, this really isn't much different. Still not sure what it'll be.

user4704

And regardless (as that's just my feeling on the issue), you can't just make the decision unilaterally.

Alec Teal

Well I don't know what to say, we disagree, I suppose. Need we say more words on it? For all you know this could die and I'll forget within a week.

user4704

I don't want to be a jerk, but basically it comes down to you have to propose this on meta or we'll have to treat it the same way we treated the last attempt to do this, which was to give it about a week and let the mods decide if it was worthwhile to keep.

user4704

I think you might get a decent amount of support for the idea on meta. but honestly, every other attempt to do this has ended with the four of us shutting the side room down for one reason or another.

user4704

Strictly speaking if you get a sufficient amount of people arguing that its worth a shot on meta, we can't shut it down unless you're actually breaking some other SE rule.

Alec Teal

Sep 22, 2015 16:02

Yeah, you saying how resistant things are to change, and me saying I don't like it in this current state suggests that this attempt (if you look I've tried twice) for me to join will fail.

user4704

twice like under a differnt username? I don't recognize you or anything

Alec Teal

As a mod you should consider yourself as a Jedi, a keeper of the peace. Is there any problem caused here at all? Well then, what's the problem! Established cliques are a big problem on SO and other SE sites, if you Google it you'll find many quiters because of it.

No, twice under this.

user4704

Oh okay.

user4704

Things aren't really that resistant to change, it just sounds like your experience has been colored by the small segment of the community you've interacted with (the chat), which isn't very representative of the community as a whole.

Alec Teal

Not being rude either but I don't care about the kneejerk reaction of the circle of mods, or the existing users. I want to meet and help people who are stuck the other side of the gulf, or who have interesting problems.

user4704

Sep 22, 2015 16:05

The thing is you don't perceive a problem with this room (and for the most part there is one), but the fragmentation of the community is something we consider a problem.

user4704

So it sounds like you really don't want to propose it on meta?

Alec Teal

Okay lets say I ask it on the meta, who actually checks the meta? I think I may have twice in total. You guys are clearly happy with things as they are. I tried the chat several months ago and again over the last 2 days. It was still a circlejerk. Read the transcript for proof.

I'm not saying purge those who don't know what a pointer is, Everyone had to learn somehow. The problem is that if you don't know what stuff like that is, you're unlikely to know about other things which are very much game dev topics and are absent.

user4704

Certainly more people see and comment on the meta than participate in the chat room. Let me see if this stats tool can break down just the meta traffic for me, one second.

Noctrine

We aren't necessarily happy with things as they are. But the community votes the direction it wants to go in. :\

user4704

I don't disagree there are serious problems with the main chat room, believe me, depending on when you were last here you may have missed some of the more egregious BS.

Alec Teal

Sep 22, 2015 16:09

@Noctrine if the community scares off people like me, that'll never change.

Noctrine

My question is, what happens when those users who don't believe in the spirit of this room as you see it, ultimately filters into this room. They are of course, the most active people in chat. How do you respond?

user4704

Point is, the meta is where the bulk of the community is relative to the chat.

user4704

If you don't propose it on meta, we can give you two weeks or so to prove out the viability of the room, after which we'll have to make some kind of decision on it.

user4704

(also when we're done here I'm going to move this entire conversation to another room, so as not to potentially unduly color the opinions of anybody who joins here)

Alec Teal

Discouraging it, there's ANOTHER chatroom, this site supports having multiple chatrooms, all I need to say is "please take it to the other chatroom" - that's if it is a problem. If the chat is dead and someone breaks the hours of silence with a news link or (what I'd call) a silly question - I'm not going to "deal with it" because it didn't stop anything. (Remember the Jedi analogy)

Thanks @JoshPetrie I was a little worried about that.

user4704

Sep 22, 2015 16:12

If I'm reading this analytics correctly there's ~100-200 visitors to the meta on a regular basis.

Noctrine

@AlecTeal This is essentially what happened with the other chatroom, and that is why other attempts to do this type of thing ultimately fall to naught.

user4704

That is a tiny portion of the site's total user count, admittedly (we know meta participation is poor :()

user4704

But it's waymore than the eight regulars of the main chat room.

Noctrine

From our perspective (and I think really what Josh is getting at) is that it would be much preferred if the existing Game Development chat, trends more towards being more on-topic.

Splitting up discussion only serves to hurt that effort.

Alec Teal

That's higher than I would have thought @Noctrine if I fail because no one joins or I get bored and forget, it failed. The way I see it it is harmless to try. If I don't though, who will?

user4704

Sep 22, 2015 16:14

I should note, too, that there's a lot of people on meta who specifically don't like the chatroom and never come there.

user4704

Precisely because it is the way it is now.

Noctrine

Especially since it is one of the more frequented chats on the stackexchange system.

Alec Teal

@Noctrine I'm not new to the IRC world. It's been.... well over a decade. Often you get multiple chats for this reason, to siphon off levels of chat. If there were one chatroom it'd be horrible. Can you imagine someone genuinely trying to learn coming in and asking a question and being told "too simple" or something - that is exactly what I don't want to do.

Noctrine

@AlecTeal Which is why I think he is suggesting that you propose it on meta. As he said we can't shut the room down because you aren't breaking any rules, but it's much preferred to get the community involved in these kinds of things.

user4704

@AlecTeal have you ever been on the #gamedev IRC channel on Afternet?

Noctrine

Sep 22, 2015 16:15

This also only serves to help your attracting people to this site, because as Josh said - there are a number of professionals here that actively avoid the chat because of how it is.

Alec Teal

A message pointing them in the right direction and saying "try the other chatroom, message me if no one responds" is much nicer, maybe the other less experienced in there can help the new person (this is exactly what is done at universities, professors find first years rather boring, however their 3rd year "mentor" is more forgiving)

user4704

There's no such thing as PM here btw :)

user4704

Hell even one of our moderators avoids it since I usually deal with it and he doesn't want the stress.

Alec Teal

you'll also note that a lot of my comments here are "comment me if no one answers" - I'm sort of hoping that one of those "3rd years" might swoop in.

user4704

I think that's extremely unlikely to happen, irrespective of my other opinions about whether this room is beneficial.

user4704

Sep 22, 2015 16:17

The chat network just doesn't have that level of traffic or visibility at all.

user4704

And it's hidden behind the "wall" of the site, which itself has problems attracting the people you're interested in talking to.

user4704

(which is why I asked about #gamedev on IRC?)

Alec Teal

Exactly, I myself go for long periods of time forgetting about it. But I was scared off (loathed it!) twice, imagine if there are others like me. This channel cannot hurt the odds them staying.

As for the gamedev thing, no. I actually try and avoid stuff with gamedev in the title. Also avoid DarkBasic, but to expand on that would become a rant.

user4704

#gamedev on IRC (irc.afternet.org) is a thing you shoudl look at

user4704

it has a massive number of professionals in it, although they will probably not immediately tell you they are because there is still a decent portion of neophytes and annoying help vampires.

Alec Teal

Sep 22, 2015 16:19

I will check it out. I'm usually more responsive on email and in a lot of private lists. I don't like that they're private - this is one of the reasons I'm trying to do this.

user4704

However, #graphicschat on the same network is much smaller and consists almost entirely of professionals.

user4704

(it is consequently much lower-volume, but that's what you get; if you get there and somebody asks who you are, you can say jpetrie sent you and they probably won't immediately boot you out)

Alec Teal

I'll keep that in mind. I'm just configuring my client a sec. (I do a lot of stuff under pseudonyms)

user4704

k, I will keep an eye on this room for the next two weeks or so. Ping me when you want me to offload this conversation elsewhere.

Alec Teal

Eternal September - something something main chat room

@JoshPetrie if you could do that now that'd be great.

user4704

Sep 22, 2015 16:24

k

On Secondary Permanent Chats

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