TRPG General Chat - 2013-05-15 (page 2 of 3)

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7:00 AM

k

Moreso in ArM than in other games?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

more so in my games, because I'm a philosopher.

ah

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

But yeah, I expect moreso in ArM, because power is... significantly more obvious

A magi who sets her mind to something, can eventually do it.

That statement is remarkably unbounded, for long enough standards of "eventually."

nice

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

To a point :)

but I enjoy it, because that's the kind of game I want to play.

there is very little action in my games.

(Basically, my games are not bad riffs on Asimov's writing... look at all the lovely ideas!)

A nice chunk of talking, a spell cast here and there, reasearch being done, the odd episode of warping..

7:02 AM

lol

this is an interesting game you play

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Like there's certainly conflict...

Yeah, I'm really not sure why @Magician plays it :)

to murder Aristotle in humorous ways?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

My players generally wander around in a persistent state of "what the bloody fuck is going on?" and every so often figure it out, resolve the problem, then go back into their labs.

lol

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

oh no! BESW has almost conquered the starred chats! We're doomed if he gets all 8 seals of approval!

7:06 AM

Saw that :) only @Problematic has a non-BESW starred comment on my screen. Our saving grace.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@LitheOhm yes. We need a band of brave heroes to reconquer the stars...

ahem.

So yeah, Ars is its own little world. It loves having plots+personalities+macguffins introduced, but ... resents imposition...

umm...

lol

plots, personalities, macguffins. No imposition

Next term I've got half as many classes as previously planned for so I'm hoping to get into a new system or two.

Modern is so radically different from 3.5, I don't know how I could ever take in all the contrasts -_-

and the Call of Cthulhu game I found introductory/free is much shorter than I thought it would be

am off. Later, @BrianBallsun-Stanton and thank you for the tips

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

cheers

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

7:27 AM

wow. @magican. Aristotle is a badass.

0

A: How is the idea of an explosion represented in a purely Aristotelian physics?

The closest concept in the Aristotelian paradigm is the idea of Thunder. According to History of Shock waves, Explosions and Impact by Krehl, p 187, Aristotle had a surprisingly sophisticated conception of percussion: "All sounds are produced by the meeting of bodies or of the air with bodi...

Is it bad that I find using the entire library system of Sydney fun to do research for an RPG?

Not at all

Still mulling over shadowrun

Have you ever played it, @BrianBallsunStanton ?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

briefly, but yes

tthoughts?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

is fun

tthat's good

what did you play?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

7:39 AM

I don't understand

what edition? what PC?

(I think I ran it)

sr4

yyour character

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

GM :)

is a good character

GM, the most powerful character type.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

yep

Eh. GM is one one those strange cases where they tried to balance mechanical power with mechanical complexity.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

7:40 AM

able to do anything but win.

lol

@Magician Like grappling?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

brb

kk

@LitheOhm As an example of how the D&D system is unable to accomodate extreme setting changes is Dark Sun. In a world with minimal magic, the system's balance (such as it is) falters and fails. 3.5 didn't even try to port DS because even WotC recognized they couldn't do it.

7:42 AM

iI'll be off soon also

ta ra

4e used inherent bonuses to try altering the appearance of the system without modifying its underlying function, but that just resulted in, effectively, "one less magic item per level gets dropped;" not a significant enough surface change to make the DS setting live.

@BESW Lets see here.. nigh-omnipotence, vaguely constrained by rules and/or lack of understanding thereof. Yes, there are similarities.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton One of the groups I played with had a group joke about this powerful artifact called the DM Sword. Anyone who wielded it successfully without dying could make anything they could possibly think of happen... but it had a tendency to make your head explode if you tried to pick it up.

Also, yay, a starred quote means BESWpocalypse has been postponed.

It would occasionally drop from the sky and skewer PCs who had incurred the GM's wrath.

@user17006 Hi!

8:05 AM

@Magician And while a lot of people don't want to use it because it's so complicated, those who are willing to gain familiarity with the system enjoy it perhaps too much.

@BESW As a note, I've never had any difficulties with 3ed grappling. But then again, I GMed it :)

Many of the rules were always Someone Else's Problem for me.

"If you're going to use that ruleset, you become the expert" was a blissful phrase to utter.

@BESW I've largely done that with 4e. "Just tell me what your character does".

"Just let me know if I get an OA."

8:21 AM

@waxeagle (might be late but) yes of course.

8:57 AM

Main reason I like Ars Magica: with the help of @BrianBallsun-Stanton we've just developed a ritual to turn someone's genitals into thunder (with the immediate consequent explosion in accordance with Aristotelian physics). And because it targets arcane connection, once you have acquire one you can just do it whenever. I accept full responsibility for this abomination, and christen it Thunderballs.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

hehehehehehehe

It takes more effort than just killing a person, but it's so worth it. I believe it would qualify as a suitable prank for a winter magi.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

And this is why we can't take you anywhere

With the sufficient application of research and logic, you can do anything and figure out how difficult it is, too.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton With this ritual, you don't have to :D

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Level 65 MuCo(Au), Base 30, +2 unnatural (really should be 4, but... eh), +1 part, +4 Arcane Connection, Causes an explosion of +30 (armor doesn't help you... it in fact makes it worse), and an incapacitating wound...

9:01 AM

It would also grant flaw Eunuch, I imagine.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Magician well, that and Dead

but yes. Assuming you survived...

It is important. If I just wanted them dead, I could do it much more easily...

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

(Given that, 21 is enough to kill a normal human, and you do at least 31 damage...)

okay, a dragon has soak +20

So a dragon... would... take a medium wound from this..

oh wait, no

dragon isn't Co

We're not pranking dragons, mmkay.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Bart the devil, Might 50. ... soak +8.

you would... kill it.

At which point you then leap to the top of all sorts of watch lists.

9:05 AM

Then again, this is one of those rituals where you really don't want to botch...

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

yes. you'll be dumping some time into mastering it.

Cause with this ritual, spell mastery (penetration) only makes sense.

cause you want to be able to one-shot might 50 things with this.

And so y'know, spending ... lets see here, 1 season for 5, 2 seasons for 10, 3 seasons for 15 ... a year and a half on this, for 3 less botch dice.

+3 penetration on top of what's likely a +6 or so...

and an arcane connection with appropriate calculations, yeah, you can punch through a might 50.

..."So, Bob, how was your year?" "Oh, you know, same old. Exploded balls five days a week..."

3

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Magician I can't stop giggling.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton It's your fault for suggesting mastering the ritual. How in the seven hells will you find enough targets? :P

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

oh no, you just practice casting it.

and um, grave yards are good?

lots of graveyards?

yeaaah, so one-shotting a might 50 devil... lets see here.

9:09 AM

@BrianBallsun-Stanton ...this might go a step beyond desecration.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

one shotting one so spectacularly... I'll say a rank score of 5? Just...

yeah, you'd probably be acknolwedged a Lord of Thunder right quicklike

not quite the deep end of the pool, but you've got all sorts of people kissing up to you and bringing you... trinkets...

people is, of course, one of those words.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton "I built a bridge, but do they call me Bob the Builder? I wrote a book, but do they call me Bob the Writer? Once, just once I exploded a devil's genitals..."

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Magician oh... oh no.

okay, so, you know your old character's alan's ability to pass spells into objects, yeah?

Here. have some exploding pants.

...

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

No, the pants don't explode...

this is not right

9:14 AM

The Surprise Gift of Really Surprising Pineapple

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

... yeah

aaaaaaaanyways.

Closing thought: what are the chances that once in the history of the Order one winter magi got pissed off enough that he just made a list and went through it, methodical-like, in a day? The Thunder Plague, they'd call it.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

quite high, really

cause you know you'll be warred, marched...

but you've seen your last twilight, and the universe is... annoying.

you do it right. a month before, you send out proper war notices to your list.

you make sure you're in your 60-70 aegis

and then you just go down your list.

And then the order figures out how to make sure that never happens again

1 hour later…

10:55 AM

@Trajan My suggestion to your problem is that the tech was previously unreleased, the company saw no profit in it, was poorly run or had some other reason for killing hte program originally.

11:25 AM

Heyo

Ohey.

11:43 AM

Hows things?

@waxeagle Good point but hardly fits for said tech (cybernetic limbs...)

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Are you enjoying Digger?

@BESW He says he just finished it

@Pureferret Birthday song.

@Magician That was speedy.

@BESW Don't underestimate the power of procrastination.

11:56 AM

@Magician The Fairy Nuff glances up from memorizing the Farewell to Lothlorien in the original Elven, agrees, and returns to 'work.'

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:43 PM

@BESW I can see why it won a hugo. excellent story

1:08 PM

@BrianBallsun-Stanton ^^

I used a lot of her ideas and concepts (usually at a higher rather than literal level) in some of my games.

...I did once drop the wombat people and culture straight into a D&D world with minimal modification and a LOT of houseruled support for their nonmagical awesomeness.

Then a coked-out tarrasque ate their city. It was very sad.

1:23 PM

@BESW :{(

@Trajan depends entirely on the company. Some companies are so poorly mismanaged that a rogue (or even unknown) R&D department can develop something awesome and no one will ever know because they are just another bit of megacorp.

Or said megacorp will suppress said creation for a myriad of reasons.

usually for profit.

@Novian typically somethign happens and it gets killed for PR reasons...because profit

see: all the Iron man projects in Iron man 2

@waxeagle Like the hydrogen car

@Novian that's more a question of infrastructure. we have a massive amount of said infrastructure built around gasoline. Unless we're switching to nat gas nothing is going to change

1:28 PM

they made it out like there would be little hydrogen bombs driving around to scare people into being against it. although this was back in my dads time.

@waxeagle Indeed.

@Novian those fears are alive and well. Though the idea of fuel cells mitigates them. But the natural gas boom in the US has basically killed all of that

An uninformed public is a profitable scapegoat.

@Novian always

Hmm, thats the most coherent thing Ive ever said at this time of day.

hmmm Driving Hydrogen bombs around would convince people to drive safe hehehe....

@Novian lol too true. Some of the illegal nat gas conversions I've seen (mostly in ecuador) are already quite dangerous potentially

1:44 PM

"Stat up Harry Dresden" contest from Evil Hat.

Morning, folks.

Heyo.

@Problematic g'morn

@BESW happy birthday, though it occurs to me that as a denizen of the future, your birthday was yesterday for you.

@Problematic Six more minutes!

1:54 PM

Well then, happy friggin' birthday!

@trogdor Welcome, welcome, welcome!

@Problematic Thank you!

lol

Hey guys, @trogdor is one of my IRL players. He's the "1" in the 1.5 players for my DFRPG game.

that doesn't seem fair

the other guy is still a full person

he just has more of a life than me

velcom oh wise burninator

1:59 PM

@waxeagle Join us in marveling that the name wasn't taken yet.

@BESW I didn't think it mattered on SE

@BESW SE isn't picky about dupes acct names

[bemused]

Or is that... besw'd?

lol

maybe that is it

2:01 PM

Ferrets in packing peanuts.

I really was surprised no one before me wanted to be able to burninate people here

it seems like an odd thing not to think of

but maybe thats just me

I've always imagined Trogdor as a tarrasque. Are you a tarrasque?

no silly

im a man, a dragon man, or maybe just a dragon

its pretty easy to figure out

But that's not as interesting

but those wuss tarrasque's would love to think I was one

who needs interesting

2:05 PM

We have dragons aplenty in chat already (@BrianBallsun-Stanton is a gold dragon, for example). Tarrasques: none.

there is burnination,what more does anyone need?

eh

one of them will show up eventually

if thats what you want

or you can assume I am one

it makes little difference between the two in my personal opinion

@trogdor What kind of FATE player are you? "Who needs interesting?" indeed.

you don't need interesting if you can burninate the countryside, all the peasents, and heck everything else

FATE is just a way to slow the process down

if I don't attempt to amuse myself somehow, what will I burninate later?

besides

who needs interesting is a great aspect

@trogdor ... which, ironically enough, is used to make your life more interesting.

interesting? interesting?

user image

(Actual SE tag burnination UI ^)

2:13 PM

why yes, burninate is the only button there

that is quite convenient

it's the tag burnination UI, what else would you be doing there?

yes exactly

what else would you be doing?

there is much too much time in the day for burnination

2:31 PM

and yes Problematic, I am aware of the irony there

and irony is also, as it turns out, quite amusing at times

so @trogdor what do you do for a living in our fine imperial terretory?

so far?

answer one question

about riding on the backs of unwilling creatures who are bigger than you

Joshua Aslan Smith

3:02 PM

hello all

howdy

@JoshuaAslanSmith @ObliviousSage gmorn you two

Joshua Aslan Smith

morning to both of you

FOILED AGAIN!

haha

I need to use the rpg.se app on mai phone

So i can respond to all these 4e questions before 5 other people do

@JoshuaAslanSmith lol

4e is a tough game on this site

Joshua Aslan Smith

indeed it is, I should work on wiki edits again (though I'm not sure if that raises rep at all).

I just wanna hit 3k so I have vote to close as an option instead of commenting on a question saying "someone should vote to close this"

3:10 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith if you're under 20k they still have to be approved, so yes

@JoshuaAslanSmith you can always flag too

why don't villain do x? Because villains don't do x. yeah tautologies :)

rpg.stackexchange.com/q/25547/1084 (reference)

@waxeagle The first rule of Tautology Club is the first rule of Tautology Club.

2

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle that question is a whole bag of head hurt. Your answer is pretty good about it not serving the purpose of the story

@JoshuaAslanSmith ultimately that's what RPGs are about. If a plot line/mechanic/idea doesn't serve the story then what good is it..

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle I completely agree. It's also where geek over-analyzing veers into too much verisimilitude. The issue with any game system is it can be sufficiently broken if you look for ways to break it especially systems dealing with magic or high tech stuff that we don't have a real world analog to.

@JoshuaAslanSmith yes, especially when you introduce concepts like terrorism that may have been nearly foreign to the designers when they were writing it

3:23 PM

Referencing this conversation from earlier in the day might be useful:

10 hours ago, by BESW

Of course, D&D is also a meta-derived setting until it becomes inconvenient, at which point meta is told to go sit in the corner and think about what it's done.

The basic idea is that although in our world the limits of what people can do are defined by our physical laws, in most RPGs the limits of what people can do are defined by the needs of the storytellers (the gamers).

In some systems, the rules also move in that direction. In most, the rules must be steadfastly ignored when the story requires it.

This is an unsatisfying answer for many RPG players who first come across it, because in broad general terms we tend to be people who like definitions, limits, and hard explanations.

But ultimately, RPG rules are not like physical laws: physical laws have no particular concern for their implementation or implication, while RPG rules exist solely because of their implications and the implementation of them is subservient to that end goal.

3

This is one of the reasons simulationist approaches can never be brought to extremes without ruining the game experience (the other main reason being that since we don't yet fully comprehend our own reality, we can't simulate it perfectly even if we had the time and resources to try).

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle and also largely foreign to the type of world they are creating such as 1920s america or generic high fantasy setting.

@JoshuaAslanSmith yep.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw great dissection of the issue itself. I'm making an episodic format for 4e (less encounters per level and no big arcs) and I keep running into walls with the players who see it as an excuse to try to wheedle favors (higher than standard point buy for example) and unrealistic loot expectations. I can make 4e super easy and pile treasures on you but thats not 4e thats ego manipulation game.

@JoshuaAslanSmith You've seen my post on the subject, right?

22

A: How to encourage a player's creativity without breaking the game?

This is a system transition issue, not a creativity issue. 4e is a very different system and that's okay, but it's not for everyone. There's a gap between the player and the system and your job as GM is to help facilitate bridging that gap. Your goal in this should not be to make the player conf...

You may be asking your players to engage with a game experience they aren't interested in, or you may simply need to work on better communicating the kind of experience you're trying to encourage.

(I once had a player who came from White Wolf games who exhibited behavior that on this site might get tagged problem-player. When I explained the difference between WW and D&D playstyles, he happily adjusted his behavior.)

3:39 PM

@BESW interesting. That's a really helpful thought. game expectation mismatch that can be adjusted simply by communication

It's very rare that players want to make trouble.

Even if they think that's what they want, it's usually just acting out in frustration against some miscommunication of expectations that they lack the vocabulary or insight to recognize or explain.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Yes I have read and enjoy that question and its answers

And sometimes they feel trapped in a group or experience pattern even if they can recognize and articulate the problems.

Joshua Aslan Smith

We are having the discussion and even have a design doc we are editing together

@BESW lol, we have one player who shows up to make trouble but only because he's the DM of our regular game and needs the steam blowing time

it's usually just amusing stuff, but sometimes will catch an unwary DM off guard

3:42 PM

@waxeagle And if that's a game experience you're all okay with, then it sounds like it could be a lot of fun.

The gaming experiences of Novian and Zachiel provide classic examples of some of this kind of unhealthy dynamic.

@BESW yeah, we all get where he's coming form, and it's usually quite fun.

Sunk costs fallacy, only group fallacy, the idea that firm and clever enough rule implementation can substitute for a healthy social contract...

And a lot of "wrong system choice for the desired experience" issues.

@BESW we see a lot of this around here

I know Cat is knowingly and willingly doing it because of the sunk costs fallacy, and just hoping to mitigate the resulting problems as much as possible.

(That, and she feels her group would be resistant to moving away from a d20 System game.)

Joshua Aslan Smith

Its tough because they want rapid progression and to powergame in a lot of ways and I'm seriously thinking about picking up Descent 2nd edition and playing that over D&D right now as a result

3:50 PM

I get the impression there's a tri-fold mentality fueling it: First, ignorance of the options beyond D&D and the d20 System school of gaming (except perhaps of WoD and other niche systems). Second, the belief that these systems are somehow superior. Third, and dovetailing with the second, the belief that these systems can accomodate any desired experience.

Joshua Aslan Smith

my players sometimes seem to want diablo 2/3 wrapped in a 4e package

There are systems which will do that, but I don't think 4e is one of them.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I agree

I'm sure you can make drastic modifications to get it closer though.

Joshua Aslan Smith

theres also the "we've only played heroic" and really wanna do paragon and maybe epic from the players. So were starting at lvl 10 and (which I think is a bad idea but a compromise I made) and I know combat will still take forever and they will mess-up because they are playing characters with feats and powers they didnt get over time but rather all at once

yes thats what the adventure/episodic format we are making should do a bit

3:52 PM

@BESW I still wonder why people try to modify systems rather than just investigating the 1000s of others out there...

@JoshuaAslanSmith Combat takes longer as you level up....

@BESW I was about to say exactly that

But definitely let them modify their character builds over the first few sessions without penalty and with little restriction.

@waxeagle Because a) they just spent a lot of money on the books, b) they just spent a lot of effort learning the system, and c) they want to be people who play that game.

Never underestimate the power of the last point.

@BESW but...they aren't playing that game... :(...

@waxeagle Shhh.

Joshua Aslan Smith

3:57 PM

Thankfully no one has spent money on books (D&D insider accounts) and B and c are true. Its more of a frustration I've had as player and Dm for this group at times that the that out of the 6 of us only 2 other put in as much time into running their characters (vs creating them and planning them for shineys).

So combat is slow not because of the monsters or the dm (me and 1 other person switching off) but because people don't remember their character abilities and also wait until their turn starts to figure out what to do on their turn

which is why I balked at starting at lvl 10, they had problems making and running lvl 5 characters out of the gate.

I've shown you the Marvelous Initiative, right?

It helped my group plan in advance and more collaboratively.

@JoshuaAslanSmith provide incentives to performing your turn quickly

floating +2 bonuses are sort of idea for 4e.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle yes the other dm tried a free +1 to hit but that didnt work. I'm thinking of the stick now (boggle sand timer, no sand, you go into delay until at least after the next persons turn)

I'm fond of "You can cause a die roll (made by anyone) to be re-rolled once during this session."

@JoshuaAslanSmith Go carrot and stick :). Give them two flips of the timer. If they finish before the first they get a +2 to any check before the end of the session, if they finish before the second, nothing happens. If the second expires then they delay :)

2

Joshua Aslan Smith

4:01 PM

ooh good point

also, digital timer over sand, you'll waste time waiting for the sand time to go out.

Joshua Aslan Smith

true

Never give stick without carrot. Never.

And one reason +1 to hit didn't work is that it has no agency.

Given them a carrot that they have some control over will not only make them happier to have it, it also sneakily encourages the behavior you want to see.

...especially if it's something they can use on someone else's turn. [rubs hands together gleefully]

Joshua Aslan Smith

my only issue with it being spent is it adds complexity to players already having complexity issues

but I will try to implement your suggestions against my grumpy nature

No, that's a totally valid issue.

I also spent a lot of my time as a 4e GM trying to reduce complexity.

But yeah... it really sounds like your players need to wake up and smell the not-wanting-a-4e-experience.

4:18 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith make it simple. make some slips of paper, or chips, that say +/-2 and give them to players who complete their turn in a timely manner

@waxeagle The complexity is in paying attention to when to cash in.

@BESW true

Joshua Aslan Smith

yes I like tokens and other physically trackable abilities.

If you don't want to learn how to run a complicated character, 4e is not for you.

Joshua Aslan Smith

theres a lot of times I wish I ad the money and the time to to just buy a microsoft surface table and then build a system to run 4e

4:19 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith Try a "more of the same" approach: grant action points, restore spent encounter/daily powers, healing surges, item uses, etc.

Joshua Aslan Smith

us using iplay4e and incombat is helping

Instead of adding a new mechanic, just use an existing resource.

Joshua Aslan Smith

yes milestones have been under utilized in the past and adapting milestones and APs to work like Bennies from savage worlds could have some merit

And use poker chips or something similar to represent APs and healing surges.

I assume you're already using power cards as a physical prop?

...rpgse vote culture is a lot healthier than scifise's, I gotta say.

@BESW yes, definitely

4:28 PM

is scifi.se having problems?

I'm just noticing that their vote culture is a bit immature compared to rpgse's.

@ObliviousSage no, people just don't vote as often there (but they don't get the kind of subjectivy bikeshed stuff we get here either).

They don't vote as often, and they're less aware of using the vote as a social engineering tool.

I can ramble for 10 paragraphs here and get 10 upvotes. There not so much

RPG citizens will upvote good posts that are of no particular use to the voter, because they're good posts.

7

Joshua Aslan Smith

4:32 PM

No actually we havent used powercards as cards, one player did do that for a bit but it was printed on normal paper and was more hassle than it was work, we should probably get card cases and just put them in front of regular playing cards as backing.

@JoshuaAslanSmith or print on cardstock

it's not too expensive

We put our old Magic cards to use.

Print the power card on regular paper, put it in a TCG card sleeve with a TCG card behind it.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle yes I used to use our wax printer at work to do just that for board game aids, its just it gets a little bit crazy doing that for 5 players

@besw yep thats what Im suggesting only with cheap playing cards

@JoshuaAslanSmith Yeeeeah, I went through a lot of paper when people leveled up. To that end, I suggest one of the many blank power card templates.

I filled them out with powers as presented in the online compendium, without PC-specific variables and math, so they could be used for more than two levels.

If the player wants the math done on each card, he can write it in pencil on the card or in washable marker on the sleeve.

That way I only had to print new powers each level.

Joshua Aslan Smith

'gotcha, my players aren't so hot on the math usually and get really brainhurt (and me too for this second one) when it comes to figuring out which bonuses cancel which other bonuses.

4:35 PM

...and then I recruited the players to cut them up, of course.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Been super spoiled by D&D Insider character builder

@JoshuaAslanSmith You can use that as a reference and just copy the maths off it.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw true.

We also found the online builder indispensable.

But it frequently shorted out on the math or an unusual power/feat/item combo, so we had to trust, but verify.

(I once qualified for dragonborn feats by learning draconic.)

@BESW yes, anything with damage types gets futzed if the damage type is from the weapon...

lots of conditional stuff just goes unaccounted for on the power card :(

Joshua Aslan Smith

4:39 PM

yes theres a few weird things, like its swaps the damage lines for the Ranger(scout)'s dual strike power

yeah

Feats that grant extra choices often get messed up.

Conditional variables I understand ignoring in the maths. That makes sense, actually.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I hate builder not printing out feat text on the feats page, just listing the feat name. It does this ALLL THE TIME

But one guy's shaman/warlord hybrid had a mysterious +1 to NADs for three or five levels before it vanished just as mysteriously.

Joshua Aslan Smith

lol

@BESW human?

4:42 PM

@waxeagle Dragonborn.

@BESW so strange

...I want to make a d'Medici joke, but I don't think anyone would get it.

Sorry, Colleoni joke. (That's embarrassing.)

@waxeagle most of the time if I thought the builder was in error, it'd turn out I'd missed something.

But sometimes... yeah. I had everyone I knew who was familiar with 4e look at that shaman/warlord and +1 NADs remained firmly unaccounted for.

@BESW yep. We've got a good AC question around here asking wtf it was doing until we realized that masterwork bonuses were integrated automatically

@BESW you still have a copy of that character sheet?

@waxeagle Yeah, masterwork bonuses in 4e were a bit of a head-scratcher for me too.

@BESW yes

4:50 PM

@waxeagle Not before level 10, which is well past the NADs confusion.

That's the other thing; we're talking levels 2 to 5 or so. Not exactly a lot going on to get confused about yet, even with a hybrid.

@BESW no, not at all, not many feats, (2-3), not many powers...

He was a weird little build, I won't deny that.

The goal was to take the "Lazy Warlord" build to its illogical conclusion and design someone who never rolled attacks at all.

@BESW gotcha

I think at some point in the near future I'm going to entirely rebuild my warlord as a complete lazy lord

So far as I can tell, you can't be a pure lazy PC with any single class.

he's always a secondary character, and we always have at least 2 characters with competent MBAs

4:55 PM

You gotta be able to double dip for powers at some levels.

@BESW I thought warlord had an option at every level...

Not when I tried.

Also? Going with shaman gives you some killer synergies and options with the watcher spirit companion.

ah no, as soon as L3 Warlord doesn't have a no attack option :(

@BESW nice :)

He turned into a back-of-the-pack ranged enabler with a frontline companion, until he discovered that there are so few of the common feats which he was interested in (due to not attacking) that he could turn himself into a nigh-unhittable tank.

@BESW lol nice

4:59 PM

He also became a healing machine, with a Standard of Healing.

@BESW oh excellent :). And becasue he doesn't attack, who cares if he burns a standard on that every encounter

Exactly.

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