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8:00 PM
It's not like tags are super secret hidden things.
@Jaydles You had a good example of what you're going for in your meta post, but I don't know how well that holds out.
They're pretty right there in your face.
:9405542 titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles titles
@Jaydles You don't really need to filter so much as glance at the tags though
If you want accuracy, you're mandating game names in the title.
8:00 PM
That'll usually mean you should include the game, but not cuz it's a rule. Cuz without it, the title doesn't convey enough to someone who's only scanning the big bold stuff.
@Wipqozn neeeetgh
@Wipqozn Why didn't this ping me?
@kalina A few of us did, because it did have that feel to it. Not only because of the post itself, but also the fact it wasn't posted on Arqade.
@Wipqozn Yeah, this.
@Wipqozn did I miss something?
8:02 PM
@kalina apparantly.
Because we were talking about this in chat, and then badp made a comment on the post saying he felt like we were being called out.
@Jaydles I think the way we see it is, "Give it a natural title. If it's not specific enough to figure out which game you're talking about, check out the tags right under it."
Which we obviously were. Like, clearly @Jaydles just hates us, and it wasn't just his post being worded in such a way that we misunderstood his meaning.
Your SEO already injects it into the title, so anybody Googling for something similar will already find it.
Q: What alien bits should I sell?

agent86I've got a considerable amount of alien detritus lying around my base: Some items, like the damaged UFO flight computer, are marked as useless and intended for sale without consequence. However, I have no idea how many bits of Alien Alloys I'm likely to need. Or what a stack of alien corps...

@BenBrocka Also, I now hate you.
8:03 PM
How likely is it that someone doesn't see the tag there?
@OrigamiRobot this is why I don't understand the issue
It's pretty glaring.
sticking the game names into the title is just wrong
@OrigamiRobot This is what @AshleyNunn and I were discussing before. Having the tag in the the excerpt is just a waste of space if users aren't expected to look at it.
@kalina Forcing it is wrong.
8:04 PM
If SE want us to do that, they should adapt the system to display the "page title" as the question title
using the same code they use to generate the page titles
The fact that it's (there means it's important, users should look at it.
@fbueckert :D
Now, I could see a point being made for when we have to come up with some crazy acronym because
PaperStare @BenBrocka
@Wipqozn Yep.
8:05 PM
@fbueckert Blame @fredley for me continually disabling this.
@Wipqozn have a star, I shall leave you to continue arguing the point of view of sanity
@OrigamiRobot Man, I'm never gonna stare at someone if there's no automation to do so.
@kalina What?
@SaintWacko installed minecraft PE on my phone
8:08 PM
@kalina Cool
@Jaydles: We've actually dealt with the "Game Name in title" issue for a very long time. Based on the experience we've had running the site, along with our discussions, we've come to the conclusions that the best way to convey the game is via the tag. Having the game name in the title is great, but only if it naturally fits there. Adding "In Starcaft 2" at the end of every post often makes titles feel less natural and concise. Natural and concise titles are key aspects of being a good title...
(continued in new message)
...and using tags to convey the game name is one way we make concise and natural titles.
Somebody take away @kalina's stars.
"All tags in titles 4ever" would make lots of ugly SO questions too
Q: On the ME Drive, what do the bars mean?

NightExcessiveThere are two bars on the back of the ME Drive. What does each bar mean?

@fbueckert that wasn't me
I was busy digging to the center of the earth so I can quit this game and tell everybody I tried Minecraft and it sucked
I tried Minecraft, and it sucked
8:12 PM
@Jaydles I guess what I'm ultimately saying is that I feel the rule that "Title should be stand-alone" is a little too narrow since it:

A) Ignores the fact tags exist and their placement in the site makes them prominent to any users looking through the question list

B) Assumes that "stand alone" is the *only* factor in what makes a good title. Like I said above, being concise and natural is *also* important.

With that said, I think a more sensible rule (and is basically what we follow on Arqade) is that "The Title and Tags should be enough to tell an expert if the question interests them."
@kalina What did you play it on your phone?
p.s.: I hate the lack of multiline markdown in chat. I want to be able to emphasis words with italics :(
btw, TF2 update in the next 30 minutes.
@OrigamiRobot yes
8:14 PM
@Wipqozn I think A's what's being contested
@kalina Well there's your problem.
@Wipqozn I think a natural and concise title is more important than shoehorning game names into titles because it's the rule.
I should copy-paste that to meta.
Although it seems more apprioate in response to an Arqade centric meta post.
@Wipqozn Pretty sure most of us Arqanoids (Arqanauts?) would upvote that.
@fbueckert Arqadians.
I can't recall what @OrigamiRobot refers to us, but I know it's wrong.
8:17 PM
@Wipqozn Arqanadians?
Oh, dear.
I just hit turtle levels of bad puns.
@fbueckert FINE
A: Titles should be stand-alone summaries of questions *without* depending on tags

WipqoznWe've actually dealt with the "Game Name in title" issue for a very long time. Based on the experience we've had running the site, along with our discussions, we've come to the conclusions that the best way to convey the game is via the tag. Having the game name in the title is great, but only if...

@Wipqozn I follow you, but it's essentially the titanic example. Sure it works fine once you train people, but it's essentially like saying, "The news headline should never say 'Shooting in Virginia'" because the location is already in the byline. It's smaller, but it's right there under the headline"
That's true, but it really raises the bar for new users to get hooked. You WANT to scare off those who don't know your topic, but requiring them to learn where the info not in the title is found, in a much smaller font, in order to get a feel for the questions is a lot trickier.
@Jaydles Doesn't the Google sauce already ensure search results bring up the correct ones?
Most new users aren't going to be using the main page to find what they want; they're going to be Googling for their specific problem.
1 hour ago, by OrigamiRobot
@GraceNote In the Titanic example, those are terrible tags anyway.
actually the titan example is completely wrong and doesn't reflect how arqade works at all
the fact you're even considering it's correct means you're confused
8:24 PM
@Jaydles We never disallowed the title in the tags, we just don't like them tacked on inorganically
@Jaydles First off, your Titantic example is terrible. You Really need to get a new one. It's just hurting your case. "Sinks" doesn't make any sense. It's not proper english. Second, we're not saying "never have the game name in the title", that's just as bad as always having it in there. Finally, I think you're seriously underestimating new users (And also your site design). The tags are very prominent in the question list, and hard to miss. We have had a few occasions where users...
we're also very very picky about the tags that we allow against a question
in 90%+ of all circumstances a question only has the game name and/or series as the tag
@kalina Due to massive tag cleanup that we participated in not too long ago.
forcing the game name into the title is not the right way to do it
> - Updated the Phlogistinator to reduce the rate for gaining MMMPH when attacking tanks and robots in Mann Vs. Machine mode
8:25 PM
claiming it will drive more people to the site is fundamentally flawed
...missed the tag, but those occasions are rare. Most users quickly notice and realize what the tags are, since tags are used everywhere on the internet, and it's hard not to see the tags. It seems like you're lowering the bar waaaaaaay too far. No matter how low you set the bar, people will find a way to slip under it. You need to know when to stop lowering it, and I feel ignoring tags is lowering it a bit too far. @Jaydles
possibly the only change that matters in TF2 update
since the tag name appears in the page title and the page title is indexed by search engines
ignoring tags demonstrates a lack of understanding about how stackexchange works
The fact that we have so many 1-rep users answering questions kinda disproves that whole argument.
@OrigamiRobot If anything, we have TOO MANY 1-rep users answering questions.
8:27 PM
let's not be calling names. There's only one person here who deals with Stack Exchange for a living
two if Grace's still around
@badp Technically, I am being paid to be here right now.
I'm still around.
I don't think the SE team would've been claiming this without some kind of data to back them up. I don't know if it's an error in the reporting or an actual change in our site, but our share of direct traffic has been kind of exploding
@badp Grace has an answer on the highest voted questions on the site, with a horrifically out of context title, that question has more upvotes and comment upvotes on it than a large portion of our other questions combined
@Jaydles So make the game tag more prominent, that is what many of us have been asking for a long time
8:28 PM
...which is a different way of saying that our share of traffic from Google's been decreasing - at least in percentage points; I haven't run the numbers in absolutes
@badp I still suspect that is an analytics error
@MadScientist It might very well be so.
we have had a month with no major game releases
@kalina this is a trend spanning multiple months
@badp Skeptics has a really unrealistic amount of direct traffic, I just don't believe that number
8:29 PM
@fbueckert yes, the google sauce is a red herring, and NOT a support of my point. In google, we add the top tag (or second one to avoid it being xbox). SEO is not relevant to my argumenr.
@Jaydles You're talking about getting new users. I'm not sure how that's a red herring.
@Jaydles Wouldn't it be a collateral, though? The question tag is put there, and precisely there and noplace else because we were getting outranked by crawlers that did when we didn't.
@MadScientist direct traffic seems reasonable on UX
It might've been a problem that no longer happens, mind you, Google probably reshuffled its signals since then
but that's why we have tags in <title> elements to begin with
@BenBrocka I have 25% on Skeptics, I don't believe that number is accurate
8:32 PM
I don't know how much in the specifics I can go - the page specifically tells us not to share numbers
(It's also kind of painful to get this data from those pages)
If there's an underlying problem that's behind this reasoning, I'd prefer levelling with us, rather than going, "We're lowering the bar, this is how we'd like to to do it now."
@badp you say multiple months, I look at my reputation graph, I find it ironic that I was last properly active "multiple months" ago :p
but remember, "multiple months" ago we had the double release of Bioshock Infinite and Simcity in the same few weeks
@kalina how many million F5s per month are we talking here? :-P
@badp no I'm talking multiple rep caps in a week
smacks Valve
8:36 PM
I doubt me reloading /questions is counted more than once over a period of time anyway
I think the meta post just emphasizes that the current simplistic tag system is a bad fit for Arqade. If games were a different kind of tag the game could be automatically displayed in a prominent way on each question
Update TF2 on the CDN before sending an email out saying the client update is out
(Honestly I kind of wish tag icons weren't an advertisement position, but I still think that's kind of a clever ad placement)
@MadScientist Perhaps sort of like sponsored tags on SO?
@fbueckert I'd go even further and make games a separate taxonomy from tags
8:39 PM
@MadScientist Personally, I'd prefer that.
I'm just thinking about existing frameworking.
@MadScientist That would be best
@fbueckert The desired effect is more akin to required tags on a Meta site, I imagine.
@MadScientist That's probably way too much of an engine change honestly
The worst thing that can happen is that we'd get exactly that and stopped getting all other updates from SE
@badp I actually think that SE will have to make their tag engine more flexible at some point, they're getting to a point were it is is noticeable that the one-size-fits-all solution is not really optimal
@GraceNote Mm. I am having trouble envisioning exactly how this would come about.
8:42 PM
@fbueckert Make them red, that's all
can we have blue
@badp Make game tags red?
rest of the theme is blue, etc
@fbueckert like required tags on meta.
8:42 PM
Red was just an example, not the point!
@badp Required tags are grey, not red.
Arqade would also have obvious ways to monetize the whole stuff by putting referral links to buy games on the game tag sites
Red are Mod-only tags.
@GraceNote I know, we're messing :p
@MadScientist only really works for Amazon.
8:43 PM
If we make tags blue I will delete my account.
@Sconibulus Seafoam green
@TimStone Periwinkle
@fbueckert Salmon!
@fbueckert The idea was to distinguish them just like mod-only tags are
@fbueckert You crossed a line.
8:43 PM
@kalina Hence the humorful exclamation mark. I'd have a humorful face on display if I did that kind of thing.
@OrigamiRobot if you don't delete your account, I'll delete my account
That's the connection I think @Grace was making
even if it's purely cosmetic
@badp That's one way to do it.
And it would draw the eyes.
@kalina Win-Win!
We'd have a bit more maintenance to do, then.
8:44 PM
1 hour ago, by OrigamiRobot
user image
@badp @GraceNote @Jaydles what actually resulted in this conversation? A % reduction in traffic to the site?
Honestly, it could be done with... a very simple, if only on paper, CSS addon
@fbueckert Naturally, but the end result would be very useful.
No matter happens, someone will delete their account. Excellent.
something like,
8:44 PM
@TimStone I'm so popular.
I mean, why the hell is there still a "tags" tab on the frontpage when there could be a "games" tab.
@GraceNote I don't mind usefulness. I just think the whole reasoning behind this is sorta making a problem where there was none.
@Wipqozn pff
Games are the obvious organization principle for this site, not tags
8:45 PM
Unless there's something you're not telling us, in which case, this is kind of disingenuous.
@MadScientist does this mean I can finally burn the tag?
@MadScientist You're taking a lot of sense right now. I like it. Keep going.
@MadScientist The same reason these Backyard Barbeque chips aren't in my mouth yet. No one knows!
@TimStone Lines? What lines?
8:45 PM
.t-batman-arkham-city, .t-minecraft, .t-candy-box,
/* snip 9,000 lines */
.t-stubbs-the-zombie {
  color: blue; /* or something*/
all games should be tags, but not all tags should be games
@fbueckert There's nothing I'm not telling you, I'm just pointing off of the "Make game tags distinguishable and identifiable" line that is here.
Nobody tells us there are lines!
not sure how badly that'd affect loading/rendering times
I'm guessing it'd affect them pretty badly though.
@spugsley I saw a Corvette in front of me with a license plate "BOS MAN" on my way into work this morning.
8:46 PM
On the question end, it would require no more maintenance than we already must do in order to keep our system sane and operational.
@TimStone lol wat
The extra handling would really just be in the matter of how, exactly, these are identified.
@TimStone That's kinda awesome
@GraceNote It may actually be easier to identify tags that aren't game tags right now
and assume everything else is a game tag.
Oh wise @spugsley, bestow upon us your advice: Do we need to start putting tags in question titles to make it easier for people to know which game a question is about?
8:47 PM
@badp this, we are a games Q&A site, afterall
@badp Pretty sure I made that very point a year ago or so, haha.
@OrigamiRobot I DON'T GIVE A SHIT :)
@kalina It'd still be a rather long list. Maybe not a 9,001 lines long list, but a long one still.
8:48 PM
@badp nothing that a second cleanup couldn't fix
I think we've got a few different platforms, some networking, and some distribution systems, and maybe a few game engines
Back from this post, as it were.
Just because it's a non-game-tag it doesn't mean it needs to go
@Sconibulus yep, some of those tags need to stay, some of them could still get cleaned up
@badp see previous ^
can we burninate some of those zero usage tags somehow?
8:49 PM
@Sconibulus That happens automatically.
If it's zero-usage, it's automatically clipped.
it doesn't seem to be
bleah, that's not how the cool kids do it
We don't error searches for tags if they don't exist in the system.
and from that day onward, SE errored searches for tags if they didn't exist in the system
8:52 PM
The actual problem is that there is a synonym to , I think
A tag being removed from the system just stops it from showing up in tag statistics, being on the tags list, and being shown to users when they're tagging. Which is, well, everywhere it would be besides being on a question.
err, that's what showed up when I clicked on an "economics" tag in the tag list
@Sconibulus That's a separate issue.
@kalina You're having a little too much fun with that.
8:52 PM
advice courtesy of @OrigamiRobot "SELLING POOP IS BAD"
@fbueckert sorry
@TimStone TCO
"vac" is on the page as well, and seems to be empty
Guys, feel free to give this list a gander for other similar synonyms that need to go
Though why we have economics at all...
8:53 PM
@badp \o/
like npcs ← companions or ranking ← ladder (both gone)
We haven't burninated yet?
@badp say what?
@kalina synonyms from a bad tag to a bad tag
I think I've got 75% of the request
say a few more words
8:56 PM
potato crumpled onions
ah no, we're down to 60% now
you want the list of synonyms reviewing for synonyms that point to bad tags, so they can both be removed?
That's the list of all tag synonyms in the system. If there's a synonym from a bad tag to a bad tag I can one click remove the synonym
why didn't you just say that
power-leveling -> leveling
(the tags, ideally, should just be gone)
8:57 PM
strategy-guide -> guide
is there not a query that can return all synonyms that point at tags that have 0 questions?
skills -> character-build
because that sounds like a better way of doing it
aw, we DO error RSS feeds for tags that don't exist: gaming.stackexchange.com/feeds/…
8:58 PM
@kalina yeah, that would be better
@kalina afraid not.
you don't know the meaning of afraid if you're scared of some synonyms
but some seem valid, even without questions
like cube2-sauerbraten -> sauerbraten
@badp spoilers and spoiler
game-mechanic and game-mechanics
I don't know what either of those things are, but they look like a good synonym
8:59 PM
meme and memes
@kalina but look at that renames counter!!
vac and valve-anti-cheat
(since we just use for those now)
5.1 -> audio
co-op and cooperative-mode
okay, vac needs to point to steam though
9:00 PM
dreamcast and sega-dreamcast
bugs and bug
hud and ui -> user-interface
do we maybe want to keep the dreamcast, even without questions?
pixel-hunt hunt-the-pixel
@kalina This'll stay
diggles and wiggles? seriously?
you guys were far weirder before I arrived
@kalina "Creator: Anon" heh
9:02 PM
ending -> endings
offline-multiplayer local-multiplayer
just a sec brb
lore and plot -> story
translation -> localization
i-wanna-be-the-guy iwbtg
unlockable unlockables
settings configuration
mini-game mini-games
@kalina is good
9:03 PM
puzzle puzzles
controls hotkeys
badp good-mod
upgrades upgrade
damage damage-type
localization translation
spam-limiter is-bad
I posted about today's TF2 update on /r/tf2
That was a mistake. Every thread I visit I have a new notification of a post to my thread.
@badp got them all?
@kalina busy pretending to give a shit about useless busywork
here, have a cookie
9:18 PM
useless busywork not being this one
@Powerlord a day in the life of wickedplayer986 (-typo)
@badp 484
are they complaining about the phlog nerf vs tanks?
He plays on RUGC_Midwest, which is how I know it's wickedplayer484
@badp Not as much as you'd think.
Also, I only get notified when someone responds directly to my post.
@Powerlord I do assume people don't really give a fuck about MvM anymore
@badp btw, Valve's introducing new unusual effects when they introduce the keys for Robocrates.
9:21 PM
which should really be a huge hint to get 3 or so tickets sooner rather than later
I know this because they updated the description for Robocrates to note that said new effects will only be available from said crates
@Powerlord Attempting to a give a fuck...
Failed. Could not give a fuck.
Q: Sims3 Seasons Weather Problems

XxMinecraftxGirlxXIs there anyway to make a season in the Sims 3 seasons exspanion pack stay longer than others seasons in the game?

Q: Where can i buy a downloadable version of old games like The Movies: Premiere Edition?

bleuscytheri want to play old games i use to have : ace combat The Movies Sim Coaster ... i don't want to have to buy a hard copy because i am not in the US, so the downloadable version is better. I can't find any non illegal way to have them >.<. i have the Mech Warrior for free from Microsoft

@GrumpyLazers Shopping rec.
9:42 PM
@Sconibulus I feel like this is okay too.
If anyone's interested, Chasm hit their funding goal, but if you want to help participate towards their stretch goals, you can still pre-order it from their site.
@kalina Think so.
@Jaydles More than for the edit and the apologies, I'm joyous that you took the time to listen to our story and accept some feedback from us. I'm sorry for any emotional distress or derails I might've caused you. Keep up the good work. (The Titanic joke made me chuckle, too.)
Not that I've grown to expect anything less from you people. You're all rather awesome.
In other news, elections on Webmasters and Server Fault.
@badp we*
@fbueckert Wups. Forgot about that
@SaintWacko Psst. Pre-order it.
I wants me my crafting!
9:51 PM
In other news, anon users no longer get the BADGES or UNANSWERED pages as tabs. They do, instead, get a TOUR tab to /about
@fbueckert Their goals seemed pretty extreme
@SaintWacko Perhaps. Like I've said, I'm not a huge fan of stretch goals.
The way they're going about it is better than the finicky, "fund us within this amount of time, or you get a less complete game" that you get with KS.
@bleuscyther Hey there, saw your question and a lot of old games can be found at Good Old Games (gog.com).
Prenda: The company that keeps on giving.
@badp neat
9:57 PM
@fbueckert ah, good ole blackmail
@badp Prenda is this year's Righthaven. It will die, it will just take some time.
@fbueckert Oh bloody hell.
@AshleyNunn Yes. There is much suspicion that the defending lawyer is in bed with Prenda.
user image
Is there a way I can get a Europe-spec Nintendo charger for my 3DS, WAP-002(EUR)?
I'm going on vacation soon and I need an adapter that accepts 220/240V input.
Please ping me with any suggestions, as I'm quite busy right now.
10:10 PM
@DragonLord amazon.co.uk/Power-Adapter-Nintendo-3DS-DSi/dp/B004ZES6B2 <-- Europe Mainland official one. If you want a more accessible shop, you can find the product name/id/etc. on there least. ;)
I need to kill 19% of battery so I can do a full charge
Also, for the love of god, Firefox, learn to include the protocol when I c&p.
@kalina What is this? NiCd?
@OrigamiRobot nfi
@kalina Li-ion doesn't have memory effect. Charge away.
10:12 PM
are you suggesting that the battery performance won't improve by charging it properly?
You don't have to run it all the way down unless it's NiCd.
10:35 PM
Does anyone else upload much stuff to Youtube?
@BenBrocka I am nearing in on my 400th video
@James Nice.
@fredley YOURE DAFT
10:40 PM
@fredley you're also a bit of a punk
@badp THanks :)
@fredley Drunk and proud? :)
@NightExcessive QUITE POSSIBLY
has anyone managed to get System Shock 2 running on a Mac?
10:50 PM
... Speaking of which
@RonanForman Let me know when you videos are up. I have released 01 and 02, I can link in your views for em :)
@badp Wow, I misspoke.. I am at just over 300 videos.. 317.
@James Still nice!
@badp haha.. Thanks then :)
I'm at... 80 uploads including unlisted ones
tomorrow, I work on getting the amount of time spent "awake" down
10:55 PM
@kalina How much of your battery is the screen?
@badp there is a screenshot a few posts up?
there isn't a separate entry for screen under usage
@kalina uhhh..
@badp Not too shabby yourself :) ... Oh great chrome has started to add in a grammar check as well as spelling... (typed 'to' first)
10:57 PM
@kalina There should be one called "Display"... or there was on every Android phone that I used
wait for dropbox, and you will see I'm not crazy or blind
@NightExcessive Screen On != Display?
@kalina It's possibly to see that you're not crazy?
@James Most displays don't consume any significant amount of power when they're off, to my knowledge.
@badp is this a separate app?
@kalina This is my settings app
@NightExcessive Yeah so I am trying to figure out why Screen On is not what people are looking for? in that image?
default for Android
- MIKE TYSON MYSTERIES - In the new animated comedy series Mike Tyson Mysteries, Mike Tyson is taking the fight from the boxing ring to the streets… by solving mysteries! Armed with a magical tattoo on his face and a trusty associate by his side
10:59 PM

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