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12:06 AM
@DoubleAA also what rabbinic misSwoh? davening is daoraitho according to rambam
12:38 AM
@DoubleAA koreah is on the knees however you need to bow. koreah is not bowing. therefore you koreah then al apayim although literal al apayim is not a must for shamona asrei just a bow al apayim but without touching the ground. al apayim is a must for tahHanun though. that is where kidah and histahHawoyoh come in.
3 hours later…
4:05 AM
@DoubleAA academia.edu/825628/From_Private_Devotion_to_Communal_Prayer look at what i found. i just finished reading it and it is not so poshut and i have a lot of add to it that disagrees with this paper. i will print it out tomorrow and make my notes on it.
@DoubleAA genizah.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/profile/manuscript/… this is the siddur he brings down. unfortunately i cant view the pictures on it. i will try my best to see if i can get around this problem
3 hours later…
6:43 AM
Q: How can we get more people involved in meta discussions?

Isaac MosesWe've got some pretty important (to my mind) site-definition meta questions out there already, with more to come, but there hasn't been very much community participation on them to date. What can we do to get more of the community to come over here and help define how this site's going to work?

@AlUmmatمجاهد So, apparently, this has indeed been a concern here. ^^ was from shortly after we migrated to SE 2.0. I don't know if there's anything special we did to resolve the issue. It may have just been that we were fortunate enough to attract a bunch of people with the mix of characteristics that made them feel like getting involved in meta discussions.
@AlUmmatمجاهد I'd point out that there's a certain peculiarity here, which is that this community started as an SE 1.0 site controlled autocratically by me, and I recruited people to join it and to help moderate, starting with people that I knew personally. That has had various impacts on the way the community evolved from there. Still, I'm not sure how meta-participation now, which includes many people who have joined since we migrated to SE 2.0, is influenced by that aspect of our history.
2 hours later…
5 hours later…
1:24 PM
@IsaacMoses ok, thank you very much for your answer :)
2:04 PM
@AlUmmatمجاهد No problem. I hope it's useful. I'd be happy to discuss further.
2:16 PM
@DoubleAA, too much venting?
In conclusion, your answer is useful and now provides relevant information. The burden was placed on me, the original asker of the question, however, to make your answer useful and relevant. And without a proper citation in the Chida, none of what you said can be substantiated (re: the names of the Rishonim, this is speculation). -1 from me. — Seth J 1 min ago
@HodofHod Thanks! I hope your birthday was wonderful. We had mostly good weather and a lot of outdoor activity with friends, so we quite enjoyed it.
2:31 PM
@TRiG Fair enough. :-)
@IsaacMoses It was helpful Alhamdulillah, and again thanks
I have found this meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/a/54 useful, from the meta discussion you have linked above
@SethJ No, IMO. Dude is knowledgeable and interested in contributing, so it seems worthwhile to invest in trying to educate him about how to contribute most valuably.
Q: What (if anything) should we do about auto-deleted questions?

Monica CellioIt has long been the case that negatively-scored closed questions with no answers get auto-deleted after a month. (That's what "deleted by Community" usually means.) As part of recent changes to deletion, auto-deletion is now more likely. This is not a bad thing, but we've gotten occasional fl...

@msh210 Looks like you're right, for all varieties of English, but still, double-consonants (especially l) can get confusing.
@TRiG yep
@msh210 And I was never that good at spelling in the first place.
(I was actually in a remedial English class in primary school for my poor spelling, but everyone else in that class was there for poor reading, so I never got much out of it. I learned to spell later, when I got interested in etymology.)
@TRiG Via etymology is probably the best way to learn English spelling.
Other languages', not necessarily.
@msh210 Yeah. There's actually some consistency to it when you learn it that way. (There are still exceptions. Did you know that the s in island has no etymological basis, but was added by analogy with isle?)
@TRiG Yes.
2:51 PM
@msh210 Happy fun times. See you!
@TRiG Looking forward.
3:25 PM
@SethJ thanks for working with shulem.
3:40 PM
@msh210 No problem.
@shulem (when you get here), here is an example:
QUESTION: "If the Torah is a book of laws, why does it start with Creation?"
ANSWER: "Rashi asks your question in his commentary on the very first verse. In short, it is so that if the nations say 'You (Jews) stole the land,' we will be able to reply, 'The entire earth belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it and gave it to whomever He deemed proper. When He wished, He gave it to them, and when He wished, He took it away from them and gave it to us.' See here for more."
@SethJ An example of what? A well-sourced, clear answer?
4:04 PM
@IsaacMoses Oh, the irony. Yes, an unclear example of a well-sourced, clear answer.
@SethJ Clear enough; just lacking a bit of context.
4:34 PM
"Yesh lo maneh; rotzeh ma-tayim" proven with data
5:08 PM
@IsaacMoses Maybe try again after 5 minutes also.
@msh210 Eh. I haven't the patience.
@IsaacMoses Pfft. I'll remind you in 5 minutes so you can try the edit.
@msh210 Why'd you delete your comment?
@IsaacMoses It was no longer relevant. You'd already seen it and acted on it.
@IsaacMoses 5 minutes (and another's edit) have passed: meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/q/1623
@msh210 OK. Thanks. I think we're in good shape.
5:16 PM
@IsaacMoses We can try to get another 10000 user to edit it also.
Er... @SethJ ?
@SethJ, can you please see whether there's an edit link at meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/q/1623 and whether editing the question works? In the interests of science.
@msh210 @IsaacMoses Science!
@SethJ thanks!
@SethJ So. Exciting. Thanks!
5:41 PM
@shulem, welcome to chat!
@IsaacMoses as regards meta participation, don't forget that we used to have events and weekly things that encouraged participation. Weekly parsha challenges had to be suggested there, chat scheduling, etc.. After/with graduation, chat room naming, site customization. Chat room could gave been done before, though.
@HodofHod Good points. Some of those things probably did attract people to visit Meta who might not have otherwise. @AlUmmatمجاهد
cc @AlUmmat
cc @AlUmmat
@HodofHod interesting
@AlUmmat, Sorry bout the triple ping, going through the mountains causes weird things to happen to my internet connection :)
5:51 PM
@HodofHod what are Parsha challenges?
@HodofHod I understand I have done it a number of times myself, including posting three of the same messages
Q: Is it possible to edit a deleted question?

Isaac MosesIs it possible to edit a deleted question? This question is its own answer. The following text was added by a mod, by the original author, and by another 10K+ user, while the question was deleted, indicating that: It's possible for mods, and the original author, at least. EDIT: It turn...

@AlUmmatمجاهد I think he meant the weekly topic challenge:
Q: Idea: Weekly topic challenges

Isaac MosesAfter enjoying this question and the responses it prompted, I thought, "It'd be great to have more questions about interpreting the Shabbat songs. I bet people think of them all the time when singing and then forget about them." What if we featured a weekly topic challenge - a call for questions...

@AlUmmat what @IsaacMoses said. I somehow confused it with parsha chats. Whoops!
@AlUmmatمجاهد, there was also a weekly chat about the weekly Torah portion (Parashat Hashavua'), scheduled in meta:
Q: Parashat Hashavua' Chat

Isaac MosesOur first Parashat Hashavua' (weekly Torah portion) Chat, despite the fact that it was advertised only minimally, turned out to be a lively, interesting discussion. So, why not do it again every week? Where: The Mi Yodeya chat room When: Wednesdays at 17:30 UTC (20:30 in Israel; 13:30 in New Yo...

@shulem, welcome! Are you here?
5:55 PM
@IsaacMoses thanks for doing all the linking for me. Finding meta pages from my phone was taking me a while.
@HodofHod :) np
So in case anyone was wondering, the mountains in Malibu are absolutely gorgeous. Mah rabu maasecha Hashem! Bonfire/kumzitz was particularly nice. :D
@HodofHod Got pics?:)
6:04 PM
@HodofHod Can't help myself he.wikisource.org/wiki/…
Sorry, I don't have many pics - I had to conserve battery, so my phone was mostly off. I relied in other peoples pics. I should get some of them soon.
@HodofHod They are very nice. I was there once.
@DoubleAA Hu mashmia' 'achshav latzibur :)
Good view of the ocean from some of them
ברוך שעשה את הים הגדול
So we seem to have a couple of new users who don't really get the idea of what is supposed to go on here
I'm talking in particular about shulem, but also a couple of others
and we are having a hard time trying to explain what is proper here and what isn't
Does anybody have any good ideas about how to deal with this?
@IsaacMoses Yes, I know it does. But they aren't usually this persistent
@msh210 Not me, but I may let him know. (Personally i wouldnt have done it just mitzad balance)
(And yes, those are superman pants.)
@HodofHod I think that's part of the idea. Don't use half your mental energy on balance and fear of falling when trying to focus on the words.
@Daniel Perhaps better FAQ posts on meta to link to?
@Daniel I recommend clear, polite commenting; helpful, exemplary editing when possible; and patience. We have had users get our point about these matters in the past. Not always, but it's worth trying.
@IsaacMoses Yeah, I agree. It seems like he has some worthwhile stuff to contribute
Especially since he actually has a few pretty good upvoted answers to questions
6:12 PM
@DoubleAA I was thinking the same thing.
@HodofHod Nice PJs.
@Daniel One more recommendation (definitely not meant to imply anything about anyone's conduct to date): Distance yourself as much as possible from personal-level bickering. It can be easy to fall into, bilaterally, when both sides feel that the other just doesn't get it, but that, more than any other effect of an excellent-user-to-be, can really result in pollution of the site and distraction of the community.
@SethJ :D I know, right??
@HodofHod Are you on vacation?
The only better ones I've seen are covered Mr. Clean.
@Daniel, went camping and bonfiring for Lag Baomer.
*covered in
@HodofHod That's awesome!
6:21 PM
@HodofHod Are you living in CA now?
@Daniel I was actually there as part of my job.
So no vacation. Though lots of fun.
I agree with Isaac. Shulem in particular seems to know a lot and I hope can grow into a valuable contributor here. There are some things about SE that he doesn't seem to understand yet and I see the rising frustration in some of his comments. Patience, setting a good example, and avoiding personal-seeming fights are the way to go. I wish we could get there faster, but it takes as long as it takes.
@HodofHod BRB filling out job application with @HodofHod's employer
@IsaacMoses For now, yes. Come July, who knows where the wind blows? "א מענטש טראכט...."
@IsaacMoses Put me down as your referrer/reference.
@HodofHod I'm sure when he writes HodofHod as a referrer, the employer will know exactly who he's talking about :)
6:25 PM
@Daniel Well they just celebrated my birthday, so they better know who HodofHod is!! (Also Isaac knows my real name)
@Isaac You might be overqualified, though...
@HodofHod I don't recall who you work for, though.
@Daniel come work for my company; I they know my SE name. :-) And we might send you to exciting places overseas! (I work for a government contractor. My unit's biggest contract is with the US army.)
@MonicaCellio That sounds exciting. Sign me up.
@MonicaCellio Ah, but do they know your SE rep score? :)
@HodofHod Btw, I know I've been on this site too much because when I counted sfira for lag b'omer, I thought of you
6:32 PM
@Daniel Me, too!
@IsaacMoses let's hope they're not paying that much attention. :-) (I mean, if I had it on SO that'd be different...)
@MonicaCellio How do they know your SE na.... Oh, I see what you did there... ;)
@Daniel so did I. :-)
@HodofHod yes. Referrals from here are straightforward. :-)
@Daniel, Just be glad I didn't name myself "BaruchAtaAdo".
Wait a second.....
@HodofHod haha then I probably would just not think about it
6:36 PM
Foiled again!!!
@HodofHod oh good -- best to pre-foil some plans before they're implemented.
@MonicaCellio "Pre-foil". That's what we do before Pesach, right?
@HodofHod No, it's what you do before using a treif oven
@Daniel but there you have to foil and foil again...
@Daniel I thought that was twin-foil?
6:40 PM
@MonicaCellio True. Ok, it's what you do before cooking dairy in a meat oven
@Daniel According to some....
@HodofHod Really? I thought that pretty much everyone held like that
Ah I see that Chabad does require double-wrapping
@Daniel, I've actually heard from a Rov (non-Chabad) that no wrapping at all is necessary (Unless there's actual mamoshos) since there's no zeiah in modern ovens.
@HodofHod Interesting. Star-k (and others, I believe) say that no covering is necessary if the final product will be dry
@Daniel I thought if the oven is clean and the food will be dry all the while it's in the oven....
6:50 PM
@msh210 star-k.org/kashrus/kk-kosher-cons-handbk.htm See the cooking section part c
yes, the oven must be clean
@Daniel Interesting. Thanks for the link. I wonder why the finished product is what matters and not steam along the way.
@msh210 I'm really not sure about that.
O-U says the same thing, though
You learn something new every day.
@msh210 Yes indeed. The footnote to that even says that it is not necessary to wait 24 hours, and if meat residue becomes charred, that is counted as if the oven is clean
@msh210 Perhaps I'll ask.
6:58 PM
@msh210 please do. It'd be great to have all the relevant information in some place more organized than chat transcripts. :-)
See that. @HodofHod threatens to change his username, and we get a great, on-topic question out of it :)
7:10 PM
Q: Concern for liquidy finished product only

msh210"Meat and Dairy—A Kosher Consumer's Handbook", by the Star-K, indicates: Uncovered dairy in a clean fleishig [=meat] oven — If one cooks fleishig in an oven and ensures it remains clean (i.e. the oven has no meat residue), one may bake an uncovered dry dairy product in the oven. This may be d...

A tip of the hat to Daniel for inspiring this question. — msh210 2 mins ago
7:36 PM
Frankly I don't see much hope for that table-style daf-yomi question series.
Also, I knew Shalom would tackle that kohein question well!
@DoubleAA, agreed! On both points...
@DoubleAA I won't be able to see the image until I get home, but just from the text it sounds like a worksheet (like school homework). Is it really? What is the actual question?
@MonicaCellio There is no question. It's literally just a MS Word table
@Daniel what? I thought from context it was a marked-up copy of the daf or something (I dunno, with circles and arrows and question marks or the like?).
56A rashi | tosfos chad | tosfos oi chad | tosfos iss
Leaves | Summer | x | | | |
"" | Winter | x | | | |
Roots | Summer |(check)| | | |
it looks like that
the format came out poorly
but it's just a chart with a bunch of empty squares
and he wants someone to fill it in with "x" or check mark
7:48 PM
@Daniel it's ok; I get the idea now. Thanks. I don't see the value in that.
8:34 PM
a joke: What did Noach's wife bake him in the tayva?
a "mabul" cake
Q: What is the halacha regarding someone who is playing golf on Shabbos (where there is an eruv) and whilst he is on the green hitting his ball towards the hole, he accidentally pulls up a blade of grass?

A: Putter
Ok, folks that's enough of that for now
@Daniel You know the one about the man who slips out of Yom Kippur services to play golf? He has an amazing day -- well below par, hole-in-one on that really tricky hole, etc. The heavenly court is aghast -- "Ribbono shel olam! How can you favor him so?!" And HKBH says "it's not a favor -- who can he tell?"
@MonicaCellio Oh yes, a classic
@Daniel it loses a little trying to fit it in one chat message, but oh well. :-)
9:35 PM
Hello mods. I think it may be necessary to ban judaism.stackexchange.com/users/1015/gnarlodious - all of her answers appear to be be trolls, not real answers.
@Ariel The answers are definitely weird, but for some reason her one question is a real question
Although I can't even imagine how she came up with the idea of the Spanish Inquisition being a necessary "flesh sacrifice"
@Daniel I think she's a very knowledgeable troll - and the best trolls are. They are hard to ban since they never do anything super obvious, they try to push the line as far as possible without breaking it.
@Daniel And look at the second to last line of her mountain answer - there's no way this is a serious user. (And her rape answer seems to have just been deleted??)
@Ariel Yeah, I saw that before. Up until the last line it just seemed like it was a rambling, meaningless answer
9:58 PM
@Ariel the answers all strike me as weird (like Daniel said). They're all downvoted and might merit deletion. Her one question is reasonable. We'll be keeping an eye on her. Thanks.
I wish we had more users with the "vote to delete answers" privilege...
10:46 PM
@Ariel, she has a website and an active twitter account. I think she has weird ideas, but I don't think she's a troll.
@Monica Cellio I used to have that privilege, until they raised the required rep score.
Does anybody have that privilege? 20,000 rep is a pretty high bar
@Daniel, I believe Shalom and Gershon do. Some of us are getting close, tho.
@Ariel, I flagged her answer on the rape question. Not sure who deleted it, but my comment asking @double aa to do it got +1.
(and what do you mean, "the best trolls are [educated]?")
@SethJ It means that the trolls who know what they're talking about are the best at trolling
Because they can say things that an inexperienced person wouldn't know is trolling
The ones who are really good often even fool the experts
I know you all would never believe this about me, but I was actually a pretty prolific Wikipedia troll years ago
Before I reformed myself :)
11:04 PM
@Daniel, that's kinda hilarious. I didn't think people put much effort into trolling. What's the motivation?
I have absolutely no idea what to make of this comment:
@SethJ Strongs #6739 suggests it is related to #6760 which ends with the ayin, phonetically so similar to the words you gave ending in vowels. Genesis 32:32 says ויזרח־לו השׁמשׁ כאשׁר עבר את־פנואל והוא צלע על־ירכו so that can mean to wobble or limp, very similar to the dovening motion. So I had been considering them all the same word, with an ambiguous final aspirant. — Gnarlodious 21 hours ago
@SethJ It's fun. For some reason, there is a kind of weird satisfaction in confusing lots of people and/or making them believe something isn't true
And especially in tricking people
It's a weird sense of accomplishment when you make an edit to a commonly read Wikipedia article and it doesn't get reversed for a while
I looked up that "concordance", and indeed it says what she claims, but there's no Hebrew. So spelling is difficult to determine.
@SethJ Also, yeah I saw that and stared at it for about 2 minutes before giving up
Would a troll go to the bother of creating false identities and writing detailed....hmm, never mind.
@SethJ yeah, graduation cost a lot of people previously-available privileges. I don't regret graduating, of course, but I do regret that aspect of it.
11:10 PM
@SethJ I assume you're referring to Willy on Wheels
Also, yes. Trolling is boring if you don't put any effort into it
11:31 PM
@Daniel, I wasn't. He sounds like quite a character.
@SethJ Yes indeed. He's the most famous internet troll out there

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