English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

2:19 AM

@RegDwight — There oughta be a "kill it with cake" meme.

Nyuszika7H

9:30 AM

oy!

0

Q: What happens when there's a dot both inside and outside parens at the end of a sentence?

In Hungarian, when there's a dot both inside and outside parens at the end of a sentence, we write it as follows: Sok állatom van (kutya, macska stb.). (Meaning: I've got many animals [dog, cat etc.].) I'm not sure though how do we write it in English. a) I've got many animals (dog, cat, ...

I like the old blockquote style much better, btw.

z7sg

9:43 AM

@Nyuszika7H I like the old style too... but opinion is divided on it.

@Nyuszika7H btw, you don't need the 'Important' note imo. Just let people vote up the best answer.

Nyuszika7H

@z7sg okay, removed :) you are right

and updated the title to reflect the question better

z7sg

@Nyuszika7H Great, titles are important! I'm sure someone will come along and answer it presently. ;)

Nyuszika7H

Currently it's How to deal with acronyms like 'etc.' at the end of parenthesis which are closing a sentence? — what do you think? I think it's good enough.

Yay, xkcd is oneboxed!

z7sg

It's OK I think. Is that you?

Nyuszika7H

What do you mean by "Is that you?"?

z7sg

9:54 AM

@Nyuszika7H In the xkcd

Nyuszika7H

No. :P

RegDwight

10:19 AM

@kiamlaluno FYI, it's Auf Wiedersehen.)))

@Robusto The cake is a lie.

Nyuszika7H

Suggested an edit:

0

Q: Is the sentence, "We grew warmer and warmer," grammatical?

I did a Google search on the the sentence, "We grew warmer and warmer," and it only came up with a few hits, not even one page worth. So is this grammatically incorrect? Is there a better way to put this?

grammar sentence

Who rejected it and why?

RegDwight

I rejected it because the title is fine as it stands, and shorter than your suggestion. The commas have to go, though.

Robusto

11:01 AM

I thought Nyuszika7H was too young for ToS ...

Nyuszika7H

@Robusto Yeah, I got suspended because of that, but they let me back in... though I can't tell you how, Rebecca asked me to don't tell anyone.

Robusto

You aged 5 years in the last six weeks?

Nyuszika7H

No...

RegDwight

Hahaha.

For your amusement, Robusto: english.stackexchange.com/questions/90/…

I like how it's an answer to "what are popular mistakes"...

Robusto

What, that last deletion?

RegDwight

11:13 AM

Yes.

"My mistake is that I love English".

Robusto

Good one.

Kill it with cake.

Nyuszika7H

Cake is a lie!

RegDwight

Apr 13 at 13:19, by RegDwight

Lots of echo in here.

Nyuszika7H

Apr 13 at 13:19, by RegDwight

Lots of echo in here.

JSBangs

11:33 AM

hey, usage is gone!

jeff did it last night

actually it was this morning. a little less than an hour ago

our tags, they look so... clean

Nyuszika7H

Which is correct, PMs or PM's? PM stands for **P**rivate **M**essage there.

RegDwight

27

Q: What is the correct way to pluralize an acronym?

For example, if I wanted to write the equivalent of There are many automated teller machines in this city. Would it be There are many ATMs in this city. or There are many ATM's in this city (could get confused with possessive form or contraction) . or just There are many A...

acronyms grammatical-number

Nyuszika7H

11:49 AM

LOL

In meantime, I've found out that this question has already been asked.

btw, "has already been asked" or "has been already asked"?

RegDwight

So the message was half right, the question you were asking was likely to get closed.

1

Q: What is the correct word order between have/had, been, and already in statements

What is the correct word order between have/had, been, and already in statements like the following: When the product was officially announced, I had already been using it. Or: When the product was officially announced, I had been already using it. Or: When the product was officia...

word-order

JSBangs

12:06 PM

@Nyuszika7H i'd say that either is correct

though some of them are more common/natural

RegDwight

issc2011.org

1996 called, they want their design back.

FFS, this is an international conference for security geeks.

And they can't do any better than that crap?

JSBangs

HILARIOUS

RegDwight

A colleague of mine will be attending it, so now I have to put that logo and a link on our site.

I am a very sad panda.

JSBangs

you should just design a different logo

and put it up

send those issc2011 fools running away in shame

RegDwight

I could put up a blank border, or a black rectangle, it would look light years better.

RegDwight

12:24 PM

And the page title reads... "Homepage".

Honestly, is this a conference we want to be attending???

JSBangs

well, they're security experts, not web designers

RegDwight

Geeks don't use visual site generators for Windows.

JSBangs

the real trick would be to find a security fault with their server, root it, and then replace their site with something better

RegDwight

The last part is easy, because you couldn't possibly replace it with something worse.

kiamlaluno

12:54 PM

@RegDwight I was close, then. I wrote how you pronounce the words.

RegDwight

Yeah.

@Kosmonaut: we have an impostor!

Cosmonut

31 1

real-analysis measure-theory

kiamlaluno

It's not an impostor: it's a nut.

Kosmonaut

1:20 PM

@RegDwight !!!!!!!!!!

He had better not join EL&U, or else I will have to ban him!

RegDwight

Not if he bans you first!!!!!

Kosmonaut

OMG

RegDwight

Yes, yes.

Just think about it!

Total danger! Red alert!

You could even get assimilated! Accounts merged by Rebecca!

It's a possibility!

Kosmonaut

Nooooooooooooooooooo!

kiamlaluno

He is already red: he has a kind of red flower close to his username. Does that mean he is an Italian socialist?

Kosmonaut

1:23 PM

I've become redundant!

RegDwight

And it will all happen while you're tied to your seat over Europe!

Singing out loud!

Kosmonaut

You're in on it‽

RegDwight

@kiamlaluno Not all socialists are Italian, sheesh.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight And not all Italians are Berlusconi.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Search the room for "conspiracy"

Don't tell me you've been ignoring the signs all along!

kiamlaluno

1:26 PM

By the way, did other socialists use a red carnation as symbol?

RegDwight

Is carnation the opposite of reincarnation?

Kosmonaut

►

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Deja vu all over again.

kiamlaluno

Perfect.

RegDwight

Feb 17 at 20:08, by Robusto

►

kiamlaluno

1:30 PM

Isn't that flower a carnation?

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight That one starts at the beginning

Mine starts at a specific other spot.

RegDwight

Ek Kosmos

442 12

drupal-7 menu content theming performance theme-templates core-api

Kosmonaut

WTF!!!!!

RegDwight

And it's Drupal, no less.

So kiamlaluno is in on it.

kiamlaluno

Uh?

Kosmonaut

1:31 PM

RegDwight

Note the gravatar, too. He uses the same white as you!

Kosmonaut

Only one option... destroy user!!!

kiamlaluno

He doesn't use a gravatar at all. :-)

RegDwight

No, first suspend for 3000000000000000000000 hours, then destroy.

Kosmonaut

haha

RegDwight

1:32 PM

You have to be sure.

Kosmonaut

And then create a new user on top of it with the same name and destroy that one too

RegDwight

Just make sure not to destroy yourself in the process.

Nyuszika7H

What did I miss?

RegDwight

Nutin of intares.

kiamlaluno

To be sure, we will give to @RegDwight the task to count how many hours have already passed.

RegDwight

1:33 PM

@kiamlaluno I have my LEGO stopwatch right here.

kiamlaluno

We don't want the user tricks the system, do we?

Nyuszika7H

oy

RegDwight

Note that he was last seen 34 days ago. 34 - 3 - 4 - 3 - 4 + 3*(4-3) = 23!

kiamlaluno

Isn't there a scripting language that is called "Lego"?

Nyuszika7H

Logo (programming language)

Logo is a computer programming language used for functional programming. It is an adaptation and dialect of the Lisp language; some have called it Lisp without the parentheses. Today, it is known mainly for its turtle graphics, but it also has significant facilities for handling lists, files, I/O, and recursion. Logo was created in 1967 for educational use, more so for constructivist teaching, by Daniel G. Bobrow, Wally Feurzeig, Seymour Papert and Cynthia Solomon. The name is derived from the Greek logos meaning word, emphasising the contrast between itself and other existing programm...

RegDwight

1:36 PM

Yes, it's a language where you move turtles.

Nyuszika7H

Logo, not Lego.

RegDwight

211

Q: How do I move the turtle in LOGO?

How do I move the turtle in LOGO?

logo turtle

kiamlaluno

@Nyuszika7H If @RegDwight said Lego, then it is Lego.

Cerberus

@RegDwight I take offence! Not random, but Sophisticated and True!

If it's dogs, that is.

RegDwight

Don't make me search for your impostors.

kiamlaluno

1:38 PM

"How do I move the turtle?" "Feed it."

Cerberus

Oh I suppose that could be it.

kiamlaluno

I am glad I don't have impostors.

RegDwight

akiam

1 1

sharepoint2007 moss

Luno, Wroclaw, Poland

1.9k 8 12

java eclipse generics javadoc multithreading loops foreach

Cerberus

Haha brilliant.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight That doesn't count: it's not even close to "kiamlaluno."

Cerberus

1:40 PM

But who is the impostor?

Nyuszika7H

CHAIR CREATE 100 100
PERSON CREATE 50 50
PERSON SIT CHAIR
CHAIR REMOVE
PERSON FALL
BOOM

RegDwight

@kiamlaluno Tell that to Rebecca when she merges you all.

Cerberus

@Nyu: Perhaps you need some more practice on your English grammar.

Still, nice story.

Or is it a poem?

Nyuszika7H

@Cerberus Why?

Cerberus

Well, while I do like the novelty of your construction "person sit chair", it is a tiny bit... unusual.

"Boom", on the other hand, is quite correct.

kiamlaluno

1:43 PM

The second line gives an error: "Unknown class 'PERSON'."

Cerberus

Try "dog"?

Nyuszika7H

var chair  = new Chair(100, 100),
    person = new Person(50, 50);
person.sit_on(chair);
chair.remove();
person.fall_from(chair);
boom();

^^ JS

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus In that case the error message is "How many heads?"

Cerberus

Hmm I'm not sure whether your... creative punctuation complements the grammar...

@Kiam: But then the computer is stupid! How many could there be?

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Three?

Cerberus

1:46 PM

Exactly! No more, no less.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus My computer obeys me: if I want two heads, it cuts off one head.

Cerberus

Blasphemy!

kiamlaluno

Should not it be "bloodphemy"?

Cerberus

Ehh I have nothing against blood in particular...

kiamlaluno

Yes, but it's what you get if you cut a dog's head.

Billare

1:52 PM

nohat asked "why is this quoted? this is not a quotation!"

my retort would be "why is this bordered and offset! stuff I quoted isn't meant to read like a freaking title"

RegDwight

I take that to mean the respite hasn't helped.)))

We've been there before:

0

Q: Is "robotics" a plural noun?

Which the correct form: Robotics is no longer ... Robotics are no longer ... Or should I use: Robotic is no longer ...

grammatical-number

7

Q: What is the difference between a "singular noun" and a "plural noun treated as singular"?

I'd always thought that words like "physics" and "mathematics" were singular: after all, we say "physics is the study of…" etc. But apparently, according to the comments on this question about "news", each of these words is actually a "plural noun [usually treated as singular]". What makes thes...

grammatical-number nouns

12

Q: Politics: singular or plural?

Which is correct, "politics is out of scope" or "politics are out of scope?"

grammatical-number

Also, I have no idea what to do with this one:

-4

Q: how to properly greet someone while fondling with thyself

im just started learn english and i was told to greet saying "how do you do? had a chance to fondly thyself?" and im looked at weird. what is proper method?

meaning vocabulary sentence

Any ideas, @Kosmonaut?

Kosmonaut

I think this is an obvious close and delete.

Don't you think?

It's a troll.

kiamlaluno

Thyself? Did he take the phrase from the Bible?

RegDwight

That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Kosmonaut

The person is located in LA even.

RegDwight

2:05 PM

He has accounts on some other sites...

The questions seem legitimate, though often poorly worded.

0

Q: how do i display a message of loading or search while a page is loading then hide the message and display the site?

here is a site i'm refering to: http://www.graphicfirm.com/index.php if you scroll down to the bottom and for example click on automotive while the pictures are being loaded you see a message that says searching.... and then when you click on a picture everything is kind of dimmed and you see t...

jquery

Kosmonaut

Jeez

Well this is still not a useful question, I think.

Like if someone asked "someone told me I should use the word 'diaper' to refer to a car... is that true?"

"how to properly greet someone while fondling with thyself" is the title of the question

RegDwight

Well, I'm seeing three close votes, plus yours and mine... that's enough in my book.

Cerberus

I think someone tricked that poor bloke into saying "had a chance to fondle yourself". It is rather great.

Kosmonaut

Doesn't that mean the person who asked the question understands what fondling is?

Cerberus

Hmm yes the title is slightly suspicious...

RegDwight

2:08 PM

The question is, is it NARQ? OT?

Cerberus

What?

Never mind.

RegDwight

Everyone is voting off-topic. To me it seems more like not a real question.

"It's difficult to tell what is being asked here. This question is ambiguous, vague, incomplete, overly broad, or rhetorical and cannot be reasonably answered in its current form."

Kosmonaut

To me, based on the title, it is a "delete"... it's a troll.

Cerberus

I suppose Kos has a point. It is still sort of fun, though.

Billare

@RegDwight I thought I'd gotten over it, having had a decent sleep.

@RegDwight But it just pisses me off every time I try to edit a question. It's sapped my heart.

Cerberus

2:10 PM

Over what?

Billare

@Cerberus No need to rehash things, look in the transcript.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Le quote géant.

Cerberus

Meh... quel "quote"? Où?

Billare

The red quotes that made it clear that quoted stuff was quoted.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Honestly, just switch one of your three brains on.)))

Cerberus

2:12 PM

Ohhh.

Yeah I'm not sure what to think of that. It annoys me a hell of a lot less than the "abridged" comments at any rate.

kiamlaluno

It's better to switch on just a brain, or there will be a conflict. :-)

Nyuszika7H

double oy

Cerberus

My brains are always at sleepy mode. The switch broke off long ago.

Nyuszika7H

>>> switch ({}) {}
(x) ReferenceError: switch is not defined

RegDwight

@Nyuszika7H You aren't helping.)))

Cerberus

2:14 PM

Exactly! You get me, Nyu.

So what does the public think of the removed red mark?

RegDwight

define: switch.

Billare

@Callithumpian Given how crappy the initial Yahoo Answers answer is to that question, it's good that you opened it up.

@Cerberus What do you think?

Cerberus

I'm not sure.

RegDwight

Look at the top starred post.

Cerberus

The one about the palm trees?

kiamlaluno

2:17 PM

Who is Callithumpian? Is it just me who doesn't see ghosts?

RegDwight

@Cerberus The one by Vitaly.

Billare

@kiamlaluno Callithumpian is not here, but AFAIK sending messages with @ to uses who aren't present is the only way to send them a sorta-"PM".

RegDwight

@kiamlaluno Yeah, for real, only my awesum powerz allow me to summon users like that.

Cerberus

I take it the removal has caused some dispute?

Or is there more to be gleaned from Vit's admittedly well-done cartoon?

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight Should not it be "handsome power," if you use your hands?

Billare

2:19 PM

Yes. I'm mad because 1) there clearly wasn't consensus of its removal 2) Jeff came it snootily talking about how he never liked the quote, when I and others believed it served a functional and not merely a decorative role and 3) it seems to have been done to save a little work.

RegDwight

@@5822@english.stackexchange.com, Billare is calling.

Nyuszika7H

#!/usr/bin/env ruby
def puts
   puts 'This is not a recursion.'
end

RegDwight

@Cerberus Jeez, seriously, please go read the transcript. I don't want another 45-minute discussion.

19 hours ago, by RegDwight

48 mins ago, by Billare

I am really pissed off at this block quote thing.

Cerberus

@Billa: Okay I see. Perhaps someone could make a GM script?

Nyuszika7H

OyNotFoundException, Hungary

255 3 16

discussion support bug feature-request markdown status-bydesign formatting

Cerberus

2:22 PM

@Reg: Thanks for the links! Do you really read all the transcripts of everything that happened her when you were away?

RegDwight

Usually, I do.

Just to be clear: I don't expect everyone to do the same, and I can't expect you to remember anything.

But sometimes there are cases where it's easier to just link rather than rehash.

Billare

@Cerberus Heh, greasmonkey script? Pretty good idea.

Nyuszika7H

GreeeaseMonkeeey script.

Cerberus

@Reg: I have absolutely no problem with being linked, on the contrary! If people don't expect me to read back all the transcripts I'm fine.

@Billare: Do you use the block quote only for real quotes? I don't, and I don't think other do: it is often used for example sentences and such.

Billare

@RegDwight @JSBangs @Kosmonaut @nohat Regarding the removal of the Usage tag, have you guys considered the consequences on SEO? usage is frequently a collocate for grammar questions in Google, I've noticed, and removing it may lead to fewer people finding us. Most people don't use "grammaticality" or "grammatical number" when searching, for instance. Wouldn't it better if we sharply RESTRICTED the tag rather than eliminating it entirely?

Cerberus

2:27 PM

@Reg: You probably read all the questions and answers too?

RegDwight

Feb 17 at 20:34, by RegDwight

I miss so many questions these days.

Cerberus

Haha.

RegDwight

I used to read everything. Now I just can't keep up.

Remember that I'm on other sites and in other rooms, too.

Plus work, eating, sleeping, LEGO.

Billare

@Cerberus What I think is this. We frequently use the block quotes for examples, which might be argued as overloading the big quotes. But I think those example sentences can be semantically interpreted as being actually said, and make sense. But I don't think the converse is true -- it will not obvious to some readers going back reading some of what we wrote what is quoted, what is an example sentence, what is our paraphrasing.

Cerberus

Eating! Why did you have to say that...

Billare

2:29 PM

@Cerberus No quotes do not serve adequately for readers to keep in mind that some of what we write may not be our own words.

RegDwight

@Billare I'm afraid you're a bit late to that party.

The usage tag has been burninated.

Cerberus

@Billa: But would you paraphrase something and put it in a block quote? I don't think I'd ever do that?

Billare

@RegDwight I know that. And I don't disagree entirely with it. It probably should have been initially wiped, just to get rid of it -- now, with a fresh slate, is it time to think of using it in a more limited scope?

Cerberus

Is there any particular Answer you are thinking of that is messed up by the change?

RegDwight

The thing is, if a question really is about usage, then it will just mention the word "usage", probably many times over, and in answers, too.

So there you have your SEO.)))

Cerberus

2:31 PM

I often avoid the word usage.

RegDwight

Also, remember that our site carries "usage" in the title.

Cerberus

Because often "use" will do, both as a noun and as a verb.

RegDwight

So whatever you search for + usage, you will find us.

Cerberus

The title thing is a good point though.

RegDwight

Brb.

Billare

2:33 PM

@RegDwight You often read "use", but not "usage"...I imagine that "use" isn't a particularly helpful keywoard in narrowing down searches.

Cerberus

@Billa: Is there any particular Answer you are thinking of that is messed up by the change?

Billare

@Cerberus I did do that in fact! In the "explain this poem" question, I did just that.

13

A: Can someone help me understand this quote about love?

Let's break it down. Ah! This is an interjection that the poet uses to show us that he's very happy with what is to follow. a blessing beyond all fate. Here the poet calls his beloved a blessing, and not just an ordinary one — he feels so blessed by the love of his beloved, that ...

JSBangs

@Billare honestly, SEO is not my biggest concern. the word "usage" is still in the title of the site, after all, and there's no restriction on it being used as a word in questions. plus, as you suggested, I'm not against allowing usage to be used judiciously, on questions for which the tag is actually meaningful. it hasn't been blacklisted, and no one is suggesting that it be blacklisted (unlike words)

Cerberus

@Billa: Okay I see what you mean. I think your mentioning that you are going to paraphrase makes the meaning of the block quote clear enough? Actually I don't think you would ever block-quote anything without mentioned what it is? I was once misled by someone's block-quoting an example sentence from the Question in his Answer, when I thought it was his own version. He never said what the block quote was.

His mistake, I think: I always say "you could do it like this", or "Etymonline says it comes from a different root:".

Billare

@JSBangs Usage, word choice, meaing, and differences I felt were frequently muddled. This is what I think should be the distinction

@JSBangs Usage The question-asker provides no context or clue on how he wants to understand a word.

@JSBangs Word choice; the question-asker explicitly provides examples to choose from; X or Y? It is a usage question, with examples provided.

@JSBangs Meaning; What does this word mean? No other word or context is given.

@JSBangs Differences? Again, X and Y have to be given, and it is short for "differences in MEANING" (where word choice is short for differences in usage). What's the difference between X & Y"

Nyuszika7H

2:45 PM

@Billare Do you like to get pinged multiple times?

Billare

@Nyusi Sorry, I couldn't write all that at once.

Nyuszika7H

np

Billare

@Cerberus Link, please?

JSBangs

@Billare i have no problem with what you suggest. in fact, i would recommend that you edit the tag wiki for each of these tags to contain some guidelines for usage of that tag

Cerberus

@Billa: I really can't remember what the question was about, sorry.

JSBangs

2:50 PM

we have an unusual problem in that the people asking questions on this site frequently don't have the vocabulary to describe their question. they certainly aren't familiar with the somewhat arbitrary tagging conventions that have emerged over time. this is why our initial tags were so bad.

Cerberus

Not quite unusual, I think!

JSBangs

honestly, i'm pretty happy with the top tag list at present. the only one that's overly broad is grammar

RegDwight

That is being fixed.

grammaticality is gaining momentum.

JSBangs

@Cerberus, i think it's unusual. someone asking on SO typically knows basic programming vocab, and so can at least offer c# windows for-loops

or something equivalent

but a naive question asker here might not have any idea that they're asking about prepositions and word-order, so they just put down grammar

Billare

@RegDwight Do you have any problems with my intended distinction between usage/meaning etc.

JSBangs

2:53 PM

or words if they're really clueless

Cerberus

Okay that might apply to sites where people ask about programming. But cooking? Philosophy?

JSBangs

@RegDwight yes. and meaning is being helped by meaning-in-context

@Cerberus on cooking, i don't have to be a cooking expert already to know that i'm asking about bread

RegDwight

@Billare I think meaning and meaning-in-context are pretty self-explanatory, but honestly, I have no idea what usage is good for.

Billare

Usage would be for general "How do I use X word"

Without any comparate word to describe

JSBangs

@Billare a question that general should be closed

Billare

2:55 PM

@JSBangs What about my l'enfant terrible question?

RegDwight

@JSBangs (we do have a few open... not that that's a good thing)

0

Q: Common short phrases involving the word "think"

What are some common phrases or idioms involving the word think?

phrases idioms verbs

JSBangs

i actually would like to suggest a guideline for all grammar and grammaticality questions: please add at least one part-of-speech tag that describes the specific grammar question, or word-order if that's more appropriate

Billare

@JSBangs I didn't provide any word comparison, so it wouldn't be word choice. That's why I tagged my question [usage] at first.

RegDwight

@JSBangs I add PoS tags wherever I can.

Cerberus

@JSB: But you might be asking about things you have no clue how to call. Besides, it isn't obvious what kinds of tags would be useful on Cooking: if I want to know how to make Ligurian pesto, what do I do? pesto? italian-food? Are such specific tags even appropriate? sauce? No idea.

A basic question: what is the main purpose of tags on our site? What do we want to accomplish? SEO? Making it easier for us to search for questions?

JSBangs

2:59 PM

@Cerberus you're right, but you could tag it with any of those and it would be more or less okay. this sort of thing is what I referred to as "emergent tagging conventions" above, which can only be maintained by a dedicated group of experienced users. the analogy to our (thankfully former) situation would be if the #1 tag on cooking.SE were food

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…