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7:50 AM
I just finished publishing my first Android app:
8:29 AM
"This app is incompatible with all of your devices."
That seems unlikely to be what you want.
2 hours later…
10:17 AM
@DanHulme Same error for me, seems to be country/region restrictions: "This item cannot be installed in your device's country"
oh, since it's his first app maybe he hasn't found the checkboxes you need to check in Google Play
10:32 AM
@GeorgeEdison I sincerely hope that project isn't distributing a binary of GPL'ed code without the source
I'm seriously considering throwing away the preferences framework from my app. It's such a pain to do anything with.
4 hours later…
2:48 PM
@Dan: that only applies to modifications I make.
...and I haven't made any modifications.
@GeorgeEdison Even if you don't modify any source, you have to "convey" the source to the end user. Just linking to a tarball download from an 'about' box is enough.
Q: Merge 'stock-android' and 'vanilla-android'

IzzyIf nobody comes up with a good explanation what makes the two tags different, we should merge stock-android (× 63) with vanilla-android (× 28), making the first (and more intuitive for new users) the master, and the second a synonym to it. Note: Questions about this originate in the comments on ...

@Dan: Alright - I'll add an about dialog / page.
3 hours later…
6:10 PM
does anyone else get lots of slowdown using adb to install an apk to a device via USB?
I'm on a macbook pro so they're all powered USB2 slots
it gets to 1275 KB/s (21507873 bytes in 16.469s) quickly, but then stops for ages after pkg: /data/local/tmp/myapp.apk with no hint of progress.
7:00 PM
@Izzy Any reason you did not upvote meta.android.stackexchange.com/a/1079/440 ?
@Flow I'd say yes, see my comment below it.
So I agree with the poster (you) to merge the two.
Ah, find me a tag for the HTC Buzz, to give you something comparable :P
@Flow, while you are here (long ago I saw a mod "live" :) -- can you tell me why so many of my tag-cleanup requests seem to go unnoticed?
Some are lying around for more than half a year already.
I know, I just made that query on meta
Check the bottom of that list. Ah :) THANKS! :D
I guess it's because there is no strong consensus and nobody wants to overpower somebody else
eldarerathis was processing some with me today, and made me really happy with it -- so the list got a little shorter already (from 12 down to 9 should be)
Ah, I see. So how to deal with such?
7:10 PM
Yep I was also looking for candidates that have at least a tendency to some solution
If nobody wants to overpower somebody else, why not at least express opinions or vote up/down?
I feel so ignored #D
But what should a mod do with the voting results of the answers if it is a tie?
I guess most simply keep the status quo then
Yes! Right.But then it fell asleep...
Hm... So frustration on both ends.
Let's see, how about this:
Q: Diversify 'root' and 'rooting'

IzzyCurrently, root is a synonym to rooting. I want to propose separating the two: "rooting" concerns the process of gaining root access to a device, as its tag-wiki (including the excerpt) describes. The majority of the questions reflect that. "root" should be used in connection with issues involv...

We get a hell of questions tagged "rooting" where the posters simply want to indicate they have root.
They do not want to root (that's already done) -- but the task will require root.
The tag wiki of "rooting" states, it's about the rooting process. And "root" is a synonym to "rooting"...
Even has an upvote. No complaints. No tie to be seen :)
Oh, in the letter I should, maybe, withdraw "power-options" as they might be targeted at the menu opening on long pressing the power button. Need to check, mom...
Yes, looks like they mean the power-off menu. At least some of them.
Hmm I see upvotes on questions (or 'requests') on meta as "this topic is worth discussing". Ideally you could also post an answer that expresses your opinion which can be up- or down-voted.
OK, I can do that if necessary :)
Shall that always be done with tag-cleaning requests? Is this helpful from the moderator's view?
Welcome, @eldarerathis !
7:23 PM
IMHO not only from a moderator's view. Users need answers/solution they can vote on. A question alone is not enough.
@Izzy figured I'd drop in since I happened to see you and @Flow discussing tag requests in the transcript
And thanks for your help with my tag-cleanup requests today! It felt so good to see some progress :)
@eldarerathis Wonderful idea!
I've been trying to clear out the backlog a little bit over the last few days; I hadn't realized there were quite so many with no real "resolution"
I just posted the link to a list with open issues (I always mark the answers "accepted" so I can see what needs further tracking and what not :)
@eldarerathis My oldest one is from September last year... =:-0
@Izzy: BTW, the charger/charging merge was already done at some point
7:26 PM
@eldarerathis here's the link again for you, check the bottom of that: meta.android.stackexchange.com/…
What do you guys think about blacklisting the ambiguous tags and ?
@eldarerathis Thanks, will check that...
@Izzy: One option might be to focus the oldest one on that merge, since there's another for the power-* stuff: meta.android.stackexchange.com/questions/1229/…
If that would accurately capture your intent
@eldarerathis right, but no answer to accept. And I guess I've put too much stuff into that ticket #)
@Izzy: Well I could drop an answer if you want for the merges that did happen. From what I can see, battery-charger and charger were merged into charging
And battery-manager was merged into power-management
7:31 PM
@eldarerathis Yes, and power has a separate question. If you could mark that completed (and add a tiny answer), it's off my watchlist :D
@Flow: I'm find with getting rid of both and
@Flow: Assuming we'd want to rename to or something where needed
@eldarerathis What do you mean by "getting rid"? Creating a synonym, blacklisting or something else?
+1 from me !
@Flow: Synonymizing if they have a sensible master
sdcard --rename--> external-sd
sdcard = ambiguous
firmware = ambiguous
7:33 PM
Hmm ok, that is an option for sdcard. And what about ?
As silly as it sounds, I'm still leaning toward the idea that having and might be necessary (sdcard could map to external-sd very reasonably).
(radio/device, we already have the two separated as radio-firmware and device-firmware)
I don't know what to do with . It's kind of an overloaded term in the context of Android
Sometimes referring to firmware binaries, sometimes referring to the OS
@eldarerathis The only thing that might speak against is questions where the user is not clear what he wants, or adresses "sdcard versus phone memory"
One question used the tag because they had a /firmware partition >.>
7:35 PM
I just updated the tag wiki. But believe me, I was more confused after then before #D
@eldarerathis Full ack, that's why I say it needs to get blacklisted and specialized tags like should get created
I really wish there was a better, user-accessible term for it. Like, "internal mass storage" or something, but with MTP/PTP that's not really even true
@Flow: Yeah, I renamed to , but didn't make a synonym of the original "firmware" phrasing
And retagged some as needed
I just don't really know where it makes sense to point "firmware" to
@Flow already there :)
Stupid manufacturers causing us head-aches with their terminology...
Try to explain in clear words: when to use , and when ?
As most questions keep it that way: "rom" is the image (or image file), I decided.
What is ? phone-memory? or rather the "internal SD"?
@Izzy: It's intended for /data
(your second question)
Yes, you kow and I now, and eldareratis knows. But John Doe the new Android user?
7:43 PM
Re: firmware, I don't know, but I'm not much of an expert on where that terminology originates from. I've only ever heard the term ROM used to refer to system images. My original though on "firmware" when people use the term was usually the actual firmware files
Like, the binaries that are distributed in driver packages and junk
See? Now you know what got me so confused. But what then against merging the rom with the firmware?
Are there system messages in Android that use the term "internal storage"? Like, if you don't have enough space to install apps, it says "Internal storage full", right?
Q: Merge firmware and rom?

IzzyJust found the firmware tag (x38), where questions mostly refer to either rom (x78) or custom-rom (x141). Suggestion: remove the firmware from those questions already tagged custom-rom merge firmware into rom make firmware a synonym to rom Though there's one more thing to consider: firmware ...

@eldarerathis "insufficient memory" -- to make the confusion complete!
I'm not entirely against it, but I also am not sure if I know enough to make that call, to be honest
firmware vs ROM is kind of confusing to me, but I don't know if it's just because people misuse one (or both) of the terms
But that seems to depend on the ROM (ouch) used. I've read all kind of combinations...
7:46 PM
Or if there's really no difference
Okay. I ask because one thought was to make something like to handle questions about the /data partition for installing apps
Then use for...I don't know. Everything else?
@eldarerathis I was not explicitly addressing you -- I just remember that a lot of confusion started with that question...
@Izzy: Oh, okay
@eldarerathis sd-ext, app2sd, link2sd? Which application-storage?
Well, now you have my totally-not-professional opinion on it, for whatever that's worth :P
@eldarerathis LOL
I guess, for that rom/firmware thingy, we all are pretty confused now...
Shall I withdraw my request? #D
7:48 PM
Those all have separate tags, so arguably you'd use one (or both?) or something. It's not perfect either way, IMHO
@Flow as to your first question (why I did upvote): I alwys thought on Meta upvote signalizes agreement. So as the one suggesting it, should I rather not agree? Just asking as I'm currently in the very same situation (rooting/root)
@eldarerathis So we should leave it as "undecidable", as we cannot find a clear path?
Part of me wonders if the difference between (or something along those lines) and the more general is even completely meaningful
The question would need to contain sufficient detail about which location in storage they were referring to in order to really be answerable
@Izzy I asked why you did not upvote my answer (chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8799517#8799517) since it seemed that you have the same opinion I expressed in my answer.
@eldarerathis yes, it is! You get the "insufficient memory" error only when the "phone memory" is full, even if there's plenty other storage. You won't get it the other way around.
@Izzy: Not on MTP devices, though. They share the same partition
If I load up my Galaxy Nexus with music I have less space for apps
7:53 PM
@Flow Oh -- but I did! Somebody else voted down, so it got neutralized.
And vice-versa
@Izzy Ahh I see.
@eldarerathis Yes, that's true -- but not all devices are MTP only. I have a bunch of tablets here with 4.1.1 which are not.
@Izzy: So do they have entirely separate partitions or something? I know the Kindle Fire does that, but I think it's the only one I've seen
And, of course, a lot of people with 2.x devices...
7:55 PM
@Izzy I don't understand the second part then. Upvoting is of course a signal of agreement. But ideally on answers. On questions I see it like "This topic is worthy to be discussed".
@eldarerathis Exactly. The manufacturer decided for that because of maximal compatibility (UMS is easily supported with all major systems)
@Izzy: If that's a reasonably common configuration then maybe really is the only sensible solution, even if it's icky :-/
@Flow No second part -- the trouble was I misunderstood you, as you didn't see my (neutralized) upvote, and thus got confused. All clear now -- and I fully agree with you: Q+ = yes, let's discuss this, I like the idea -- A+ = I agree with this answer
@eldarerathis I'd say so. For MTP-only devices, is clear (as it has no other, from a "simple user"'s point of view /system etc. can be ignored).
For "UMS devices", it again is clear (if you know what you're talking about) with , and
Confusing at the start for new-comers, but technically clear.
Most confused users will be the Nexus-4/7 guys and the like who have no external card #)
I guess none of the Nexus devices since the Nexus S have had an external SD slot
For the tag names: Would you two go for *-sdcard -- or rather *-sd, as the mount-point on devices featuring both is usually named /sdcard/external_sd?
@eldarerathis Yeah, a reason I'd never buy them. This week alone we had at least two questions where users couldn't retrieve their data anymore as the device became inaccessible. On my devices, I can at least pick the card, and have all my TiBu backups :)
8:07 PM
@Izzy: I just sync my backups to the cloud. Having an external SD was nice for fiddling with the Xoom, though.
Booting Debian off the SD was a fun experiment
@eldarerathis I like the sun to much, so I don't want clouds :) Admitted, I'm a little paranoid :D
@Izzy: Eh, not paranoid, just cautious. I mean, don't get me wrong, I keep a nandroid backup of my devices on an external hard drive, too
"Just in case"
@eldarerathis LOL only one? On my harddrive there are three already #D But none of them quite up-to-date. I always create one before flashing a new ROM. From there on, the ROM ülus TiBu should do.
Btw: To finish the "third candidate" of the power-stuff, I just created this tag-wiki
Guess now I need to check the tagged questions...
@Izzy: I generally keep 2 or 3 on the device, and 1 or 2 on an external drive. Usually I'll keep 2 and when I take a new backup I copy it over (so it's the 3rd on the drive) and delete the oldest one
I don't nandroid backup as often as I used to, though. I used to do it every time I flashed a CM update, but now I just use the auto-updater
@Flow @eldarerathis still open: or (as the mount point, `/sdcard/external_sd)?
8:18 PM
@Izzy: I'm honestly fine with either. I think right now it's , yes?
@eldarerathis I never did it often. Always only before flashing.
@eldarerathis Yes, you're right! I'm fine with that. Only thing to keep in mind: people might start typing "sdcard", and only take a look at the auto-completion after the "c"...
Hm, I could see that
Oops, that was an additional tag (oh, and my first "delete" here in chat :)
Nothing is hidden from the mod team!
So how about that: tag = external-sd, synonym = external-sdcard
8:22 PM
evil laughter
Don't laugh -- I'm a 10k+ and can see that as well! and gimme a few more days, then trust me ROFL
(just waiting for my missing 1,250 rep)
Following up from above: that way we could blacklist the ambiguous "sdcard", and still have the auto-complete working
Yeah, until 20k you're still not trustworthy enough, obviously
Not even to write tag-wikis. I stopped counting, but I guess I did a few hundred of them now...
"external-sdcard" probably is a good idea for a synonym, at least from an autocomplete standpoint. I can do that.
Great! So I should go then and check all the whether they belong to external or internal? And if that's not clear, just tag them both?
8:27 PM
@Izzy: Sure, if you've got the time that would be quite helpful
I'll do my very best... as every year #D
power-options is cleaned up now. OK, so might I bring up Tag merge: power, power-management again?
Pro, con?
@Izzy: My only concern would be any questions where would make sense, but not . I don't have any examples offhand, so I wonder if that's a realistic possibility or not
OK. So proposal: I go over all the "power"-tagged, and re-tag those which are clear -- and then we see what to do with the rest?
Seems reasonable
OK, so I will set myself a comment there.
I'm using the chance having two mods here in chat (doesn't happen that often) to clear up things now :)
We're rather at a "patt" there. Some additional argument pro-merge: I own a HTC Wildfire (GSM), which also has a CDMA pendant (Buzz). No tag for the buzz either.
8:41 PM
@Izzy: I'm not all that familiar with those two phones, but if they really are the same device with different radios then the convention seems to be to use a single tag in most cases, like you note.
And I own a Milestone-2 (GSM). Always was able to use all the help for the Droid2, unless it got CDMA specific.
One notable exception: we have a separate tag for the Epic Touch 4g
And the original Epic 4g
Yes, they are. On that fact we generally agreed. Only some counted that difference as "too big to merge".
However, the original Epic I think is reasonable because it's the only SGS variant with a slide-out keyboard
So it's not just the radio there.
8:42 PM
The Epic Touch 4g I don't know that we need. It's just Sprint's SGS2
If there's a tag for both: Merge? I saw a lot of tags today referring to multiple models of the same device.
(yeah, I was working on the device-tags)
I think I will merge them. I don't see a meaningful reason to keep that one separate when the others are not. Plus it's a stupid name for a phone: Samsung Galaxy S2 Epic 4g Touch
I mean, what is that? :P
LOL-ROFL Is that really a name? Sammy-Tammy-Funny-Plastic-Fantastic?
Yeah, my blessing for that action, son #D
And about my DroidStone?
@eldarerathis wanna have a complete confusion of terms? Read this: memory not available
@Izzy: I tend to agree, but I think I'll hold off for now and maybe poke @Flow and Matthew Read to see if they have any additional thoughts (since they both had opposite answers on that request)
Since I know the Epic 4g Touch has no meaningful difference to the regular SGS2 I'm comfortable with that merge
@eldarerathis OK, always good to have a second and third opinion. Flow is pro-merge, Matthew con :)
8:51 PM
/cc @matthewread per the above if you've got some time ^
So what do you say on that question: we've got "phone memory", "internal memory", and a "sd-card". Note: memory, not storage.
I'd say I hate the way Android words its error messages
As for the tags: Would you agree he has both "cards", internal + external?
Ugh, I think this is LG's idiotic system
and should I then tag it with... what? All 3 (internal-storage|sd + external-sd)?
8:54 PM
So some LG devices do indeed have an internal SD partition and support for external SD cards, but the internal storage is not MTP mounted at /sdcard. It's an entirely separate partition
Hey, I'm using an Optimus 4X -- and yes, it's idiotic... bloatware AND mafia-ware on that thingy!
And apparently you can only move apps to the internal SD card or something. It won't let you move them to the external
Which is...stupid
(on some LG phones, anyway)
Yeah, but what I meant is: this type of questions, should they be tagged with all 3 storage types?
I guess, realistically, it makes sense
Arguably the internal SD is not really that important here since the question is more about why he can't use the external
OK -- so I'll do so (as long as it doesn't break the magic-5-tags limit)
And have you ever had mafia-ware on one of your devices?
I was shocked!
8:56 PM
I buy Nexus devices nowadays
So they don't really have anything outside of AOSP and Verizon's horrible, horrible app
OK, so you haven't. LG has some "remote service" pre-installed and nags the customer to agree they can access the device anytime. You can only "Agree" or "cancel". If canceled, you're asked again. Within the hour...
That's awful
I'd custom ROM that so fast
...until you either agree -- or root the device and freeze that godfather!
Oh, that thing has a big fridge meanwhile :)
Full of nice little LG* apps... Almost none of them left.
OK, next: Your vote on... Diversify 'root' and 'rooting' ?
Flow waits on a second opinion there :)
And I cannot start until the synonym got separated #D
I have no objections to that in theory, my only other thought would be that we need to try to make sure doesn't turn into a "meta tag" to mean "BTW guys, my device is rooted"
I can think of reasons to use legitimately, too, though
(e.g. "How do I grant root permission to an app?" or something)
@eldarerathis Admitedly, that risk exists. But so it does for "Hey guys, I've got a Nexus-4" :)
9:04 PM
Right, I think we just need to make sure the wiki is clear and we enforce it
Device-tags are heavily abused. And I clean that up whenever I see it (i.e. a tag with no relation)
@eldarerathis I'm Mr. Wiki :D
You'll get me that gold reviewing badge for the Suggested Edits Queue in no time
I will make that clear from the excerpt on. Only trouble: I have my doubts somebody reads even those. Why then would they freely tag their question "development" if they had read the excerpt even?
That's like the entrance exam to using our site
@eldarerathis If that's the price to pay, I'll gladly do :)
@eldarerathis I've learned so much when cleaning up tags and writing wikis! One reason I love to do that.
Besides, one day I want to bring up another issue: How can we draw the average users attention to the tag excerpts at least, and to the tag wikis in special? I put a lot of effort into them, making many of them places for first-aid even. I don't know how many questions would not need to be asked if those people had read the tag wiki of the tag they used!
9:11 PM
Tag wikis are kind of the neglected child of the Stack Exchange engine. They're great if you use them and read them, but there's nothing that compels you to do either
Two more left. Numer one: Q: Merge 'non-market' to 'side-loading'
But I don't know how you'd really solve that
That one I'd also be curious to see what e.g. @Flow or someone else thinks, because I initially leaned toward agreeing with you
Me neither. Nobody seems to read the FAQ (until he notices he'd get a badge for it). That's it! Bronce badge for having read 100 full tag wikis, silver for 750?
GAThrawn raises a valid point, but we do have , which may handle his concern better
It's more focused than , which could be lots of things
Maybe 50 for bronce would be enough (easier to get, easier to convince them to try). After those 50, they see what to find there and get the idea...
9:14 PM
But "non Market" does to me imply "not in any market", which would be side loading
Wow -- good points! So as for GAThrawn's point: Send him to "alternative markets" -- and merge non-market to side-loading?
That was my first thought. For the Kindle Fire in particular we also do have a tag for
If all the <del>three</del> 4, 5, 6... are mentioned in some answer (summary), I can make sure the tag-wikis point to "related tags".
(wildcard for *market*, wildcard for *store*, and I should get them all)
Rmpf... I always wonder how people chose tags: "How can I...withoud any SDCard?" -- guess what tag?
I left a comment for GAThrawn to follow-up on. It's possible he didn't know that tag existed. It's pretty small
@eldarerathis 100% agree -- I didn't know that!
So thanks!
Good -- we're really productive! One more left: Q: Merge 'stock-android' and 'vanilla-android'
9:23 PM
@Izzy: That one I personally don't agree with. I know it's confusing, and people use the terms interchangeably, but it doesn't make them correct.
So if we want to be accurate, they should be separate
I do see the other side of this though, which is that we should just make the tags reflect what people are going to actually understand (if I'm interpreting the other arguments I've seen correctly, anyway)
I'm a bit unsure here myself.
One consideration might be to use something other than "vanilla android" to mean AOSP
But if @Flow shares your's and GAThrawns position, I'm fine if you discard it (with a short answer, please). I will of course accept that.
We actually had an "aosp" tag at one point, but it got synonymized with "vanilla-android" (I think?)
But I don't know that "vanilla" is a well understood term
I check...
OI gevalt geshrien! Take a look at those synonyms!
Conclusion: Android = ROM? Following Aristoteles, that would be logical...
vanilla-android = vanilla-rom = aosp-rom => vanilla = aosp, android = rom
9:28 PM
impaired by that logic course at the university #D
OK, but one question: What about that internal-sd tag? Did we agree on it?
It seems like a necessary evil to me :-/
Assuming there are questions that are specifically referring to that
I haven't checked thoroughly
Yupp, now it has its first... Will go for the tag wikis later.
Probably tomorrow (it's almost midnight here now)
Unrelated but interesting (just saw this)
Google's forking WebKit now
9:31 PM
Wonder how this will impact Opera
Since they just decided to switch to WebKit to be with all the popular kids (well, except Mozilla)
Besides: I wish I'd new all those device specifics -- so I could tell by heart what SD card might be meant, for example...
Wasn't that originally apple's webkit? Or do they just have the "webkit" part in common in their names?
Yeah, it was originally Apple's WebKit, which itself was originally KHTML
And actually, the article was updated to note that Opera is probably going to follow Google's fork
LOL what a co-operation!
Oops -- gone...
1 hour later…
10:56 PM
@izzy @eldarerathis I still stand by my position in the referenced Meta post, but I think this is too much discussion over what I perceive to be a non-issue. Have you noticed any problems with having these device tags unmerged?
If we don't need to do anything ... we don't need to do anything :P

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