English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Accepted answers are oft misunderstood. As developers we often think that every answer should have the one accepted correct answer, if this is not the case ... well it is time for duel. The trouble is that the concept of accepted answers is a convention between the question answerers and the a...

That could get interesting. Or a total mess.

I've run waffles' query for ELU, it's kind of a 50/50.

Robusto

I think it would get the "status-by-design" tag pretty quick, that question.

BTW, how do you make the <tag> styling in chat?

RegDwight

Um, note the asker.

[tag:name], same as on the main site.

It's one of the devs asking.

Robusto

Oh.

RegDwight

He is planning to implement that.

Robusto

So status-by-design won't get applied.

RegDwight

12:15 PM

Unlikely.

Though you never know Jeff.

Anyhow, looking at the query, sometimes the best answer would finally bubble to the top. Other times, it would get buried under a wrong but popular answer.

Robusto

Well, the most popular answer is always the next answer after the accepted one. If people can't be bothered to look one answer further, then I say screw 'em.

RegDwight

That's what some people there are saying, and that's the closest to my position right now.

As an aside, I find it a bit disturbing how everyone there seems to focus on SO.

They keep saying things like "the answer can be tested/verified" etc.

Well, with code, it can.

Robusto

Besides, if I ask a question (as others have pointed out), the answer I accept should be the one that pairs most closely with my question.

RegDwight

But with language, the OP is probably the last one to be able to "verify".

@Robusto Well, the accept mark is not going away. It's just the order that would change.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Even with code there are many, many debatable points.

RegDwight

12:20 PM

We kind of already do have something similar when the accepted answer is provided by the OP himself.

Then the answers already are sorted by votes.

Self-answers never bubble to the top just for being accepted.

Robusto

So this is going to be the law of the land soon?

RegDwight

No idea. It's a discussion right now.

Robusto

BTW, the rep page calculation we discussed yesterday still hasn't been fixed. They're still using > 200 rather than >= 200. Nick Craver said they would release it later yesterday, but I guess changing an operator requires all kinds of regression testing, huh?

RegDwight

@Robusto Yeah, what I meant (or what the people there mean) is that the OP can basically say "this worked". Even if the code is ugly or debatable. But how do you check if something worked when it's about language?

"I said it to my mom and she understood me"?

Robusto

Well, in some sense everything is open to debate. And the squishier the topic, the more debatable the points.

RegDwight

12:25 PM

That's the thing. I wonder what the implications would be on sites that are even more subjective/argumentative. Such as parenting or skeptics.

@Robusto Yeah, I suppose you are right, they only changed the wording.

My point was that now you can at least use the last line in your rep report to see your progress towards those badges.

But the algorithm itself seems to be as strange as ever.

Robusto

But the whole premise behind SE sites is that the collective intelligence of the unwashed (OK, possibly washed) masses is greater than that of a single individual. Sometimes that's true, but sometimes it isn't. Often it isn't, in fact. Millions of people in the U.S. believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old. That doesn't make it true. Lots of people may upvote a flippant, funny answer that plays into a current meme, while one person holding no votes may have the correct answer.

RegDwight

Absolutely. Besides, the wisdom of the masses only applies when you do, in fact, have the masses.

Right now, pretty much any SE 2.0 site is too tiny.

It basically amounts to a random poll of a random group on the Internet.

Robusto

BTW, that said, all of my answers are 100%, incontrovertible truth.

RegDwight

/s/BTW/fact:/

Robusto

@RegDwight — Exactly. And even on SO itself, not all 100K (or whatever the number is) members see, evaluate, and respond to every question.

Most of the time a question gets fewer than a dozen views, and one or two answers.

RegDwight

12:31 PM

Wow. I haven't checked back in a looong time.

I remember the times when there were a bunch of folks who would read every question.

Robusto

It would be impossible to do that and remain employed.

RegDwight

Not that they weren't crazy, that's not my point, my point is that it was possible to read every question.

Now they have like 4000 questions a day or something.

Robusto

BTW, I underestimated the number of users severely. It's more like ~400K.

RegDwight

Yeah, but many of those are one-timers.

Robusto

Still a lot.

RegDwight

12:34 PM

Sure.

Robusto

BTW, the top four rep-whores all have C# and .net as their most frequent tags.

Six of the top eight.

RegDwight

But it's like with Wikipedia, really. You have that tiny core group, and you have zillions of passers-by.

@Robusto Yeah that was one of the reasons I quit.

I am not interested in that stuff at all.

Robusto

True. People don't realize that Wikipedia is edited by a relative handful of users.

RegDwight

I don't really feel at home on SO.

Robusto

They should rename it C# Overflow.

RegDwight

12:37 PM

I just checked the top 36 tags...

Oh well.

Some of these I don't have the slightest idea about.

Others I just couldn't care less about.

asp.net-mvc? What the heck is that?

Robusto

Whenever I go answer a question on SO three people answer it before I can even finish mine.

RegDwight

django?

Java?

Meh.

Robusto

An MVC is a "model view controller" and it's a boring topic (for me at least).

RegDwight

I fell asleep at "view".

But hey, if that's what those folks want, more power to them.

Robusto

Yeah. Some parts of programming can just about bore the paint off the walls.

RegDwight

12:40 PM

I just realized that that could be one reason why so many sub-communities try to split off.

Robusto

Yeah, but it's like the game of Life (computer version). Stray too far and the colony dies.

1

Q: Historical usage of was / were

I was reading letters from a surgeon to his wife during the Civil War and noticed he used "was" as opposed to "were" on many occasions. Examples:" I truly wish you was here with me." or... A question, "Was you planning to visit....." Other than this (to me)strange usage, his language was very fo...

grammar

RegDwight

I would rather follow through with your suggestion, and split off C#.

Robusto

Surely that's a dupe.

RegDwight

Hm...

Robusto

@RegDwight — Yes, take the top four tags and make them separate sites. Or sub-sites.

RegDwight

12:41 PM

There is that canonical question about the subjunctive, but here it's a weird mix.

"Was you planning to visit" is obviously not subjunctive

Robusto

No. It's like the mixed-up conjugations of verbs in African-American or Southern English.

RegDwight

That's what I am thinking. In fact, his first example is not about subjunctive either.

Robusto

"He leave it for me" instead of "He leaves it for me".

RegDwight

Yup. More of a question about dialects rather than epoques.

Robusto

I'm thinking of asking a dumb question on the site. How about something like, "If boxers fight in a ring then why is it square-shaped instead of round?"

RegDwight

12:48 PM

That's a great question actually, every ESLer has wondered that at one point or another.

And it will get asked eventually, so you might just as well ask it yourself.

Remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid askers.

Robusto

Hahaha.

So I'm actually cheating the community by not asking that question.

RegDwight

You are not cheating, you're postponing.

Robusto

Never put off until tomorrow what you can put of until the day after.

RegDwight

Mar 24 at 15:28, by RegDwight

Well, what should I say. Never put off till tomorrow what you can do in 3 to 5 billion years.

Robusto

See, that's excessive.

RegDwight

12:51 PM

So I am.

Robusto

Whenever it's today, tomorrow is always the next day, and the day after that is sufficiently in the future not to waste time thinking about. When it's tomorrow, everything shifts back a day and you're right back where you started, idly amusing yourself with nonsense and fun.

RegDwight

Sound like that Prisoner's Dilemma or paradox or what it's called.

Nah, obviously it's called something else.

Gosh, how do I search for that type of thing...

Robusto

Well, can we rule out Russell's Paradox?

RegDwight

Never.

We can never rule out Russell's Paradox.

Robusto

That's what I thought.

RegDwight

12:55 PM

Unexpected hanging paradox

The unexpected hanging paradox, hangman paradox, unexpected exam paradox, surprise test paradox or prediction paradox is a paradox about a person's expectations about the timing of a future event (e.g. a prisoner's hanging, or a school test) which he is told will occur at an unexpected time. Despite significant academic interest, no consensus on its correct resolution has yet been established. One approach, offered by the logical school of thought, suggests that the problem arises in a self-contradictory self-referencing statement at the heart of the judge's sentence. Another approach, off...

Here it is.

Robusto

Interesting. I'm not sure that's the same thing, but it's interesting.

RegDwight

Oh, make no mistake, it's not the same thing at all. I'm not your Turing-complete answering machine.

I just write stuff.

Robusto

I see. So "Here it is" has no literal meaning. At least not one you're willing to be tied down to.

RegDwight

Nothing has nothing.

I'm a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar.

Surely this must be a dupe.

0

Q: What verb is used with word "media", do or does?

We use "does" with singular form of word while "do" with plural form. Here "media" is plural form of word "medium" but many times I have heard people to use verb "does" with media. Which is proper verb to use with "media"?

verbs

Robusto

The hanging paradox is kind of like Zeno's paradox, in a way.

RegDwight

1:00 PM

6

Q: Which is correct: "All the media is" or "all the media are"?

I think I know that media is a plural word. So then which one is correct, "All the media is" or "All the media are"? When you search Google, both seem to appear at the same frequency...

grammatical-number verb-agreement

Robusto

Voted to close. (And upticked your energetic answer to the original.)

RegDwight

That's not quite what I am looking for, though.

Robusto

It's close enough.

RegDwight

There was like an answer of nohat's to some more or less related question or something.

Robusto

Gotta get something to eat. AFK.

RegDwight

1:03 PM

Mahlzeit.

3

A: What is the correct plural form of the word "forum"?

This lack of respect for the language of origin not a phenomenon unique to English. When a word is borrowed into one language from another, unexpected things can happen. I would argue that, for many examples you've given in your question, the actual perception of a singular-plural relationship ...

This must be a dupe, too:

0

Q: Correct naming form (with or without "of")

I have a system (software) that do topolygical analysis. How would be more correct to name it: "System of topological analysis" or "Topological analysis system" ? And what rules should I know to correctly speak in such situations? When better to use each form?

grammar rules

But I have no idea how to search for it...

Billare

prem sekhar is the new vgv8.

He has a history of leaving garbage answers.

First here, now on Math. SE

RegDwight

Hehe.

Billare

0

Q: What's the difference between "bliss" and "happiness"?

What's the difference between bliss and happiness?

differences

RegDwight

Yeah, seen that.

There's another user I am watching rather closely.

Billare

Can you decipher what he's saying there?

Robusto

1:18 PM

I think he means "excited" instead of "exited" ...

Billare

Who?

Robusto

Wow, the dude is fearless in his ignorance, though.

RegDwight

pageman, Manila, Philippines

196 6

word-choice etymology usage phrases single-word-requests philology coin

Two of his answers got deleted in the last 24 hours.

And the rest is... sometimes quite puzzling.

Billare

What were they deleted for? (If you're allowed to say)

RegDwight

10 hours ago, by RegDwight

0

A: Is there such a thing as "Injective Relief" (as a legal term)?

IANAL/TINLA so you might want to consult with @grellas (twitter) - my guess is that they might want to "inject" whatever they might consider "relief" later if they need to (there's always new legal nomenclature popping up so I think it's better to check with a laywer :)

Robusto

1:21 PM

And what is "topolygical analysis"?

RegDwight

12 hours ago, by RegDwight

0

A: What would be a suitable name for the game panel in tetris?

Tetris is actually Russian and invented by Alexey Pajitnov. Here are some Russian nouns for the word "well": колодец скважина добро источник родник водоем шахта лифта места адвокатов отстойник минеральный источник курорт с минеральными водами лестничная клетка световая шахта зумпф here are th...

That last one was especially bad.

Robusto

Wow, striking evidence that he may be the new vgv8.

Billare

He probably meant topological...maybe the company he's working for sells oil-drilling software

LOL

RegDwight

He seems to just have typed "well" into an online dictionary, and quoted every single result.

Billare

Tetris answer = hilarious

RegDwight

1:23 PM

Including translations for "well" as in "good" and whatnot.

Billare

Is today Easter?

RegDwight

"Spa town", "lawyers's places", "elevator shaft", "good", "stairway", "sump".

@Billare Resurrection Sunday, yes.

Robusto

@Reg, you should have put an Easter bonnet on your owl today.

Billare

@RegDwight Is there a distinction to be made between those two?

I'm guessing Easter is the whole holiday, while Resurrection Sunday is just a part of it?

RegDwight

Easter is like five days long, dude.

For me at least.

Robusto

1:27 PM

Well, that's debatable. The Roman Catholics reserve the word for Easter Sunday, and the whole week is called Passion Week.

RegDwight

True.

Billare

Ach, gtg.

Ciao, all.

RegDwight

CU.

Robusto

BTW, I never got why Germans set such a great store by Pfingst. No one could ever explain it to me. I mean, I like to party as well as the next guy, and I'll take any pretext to do so. But why that one?

RegDwight

3

Q: How can I know when should I use "whether" or "if" in a sentence?

I can not see what the difference is between "whether" and "if". When should I use each? For me, they are the same and I am not sure if there is a difference.

conditional-mood

3

Q: When are "if" and "whether" equivalent?

Are "if" and "whether" equivalent in sentences like the ones below? Example 1 How to determine if my saddle is too high? vs. How to determine whether my saddle is too high? Example 2 We should check if everything is okay now. vs. We should check whether everything i...

word-choice

0

Q: Correct usage of "whether" and "if"

Possible Duplicate: When are “if” and “whether” equivalent? I am not a native speaker, therefore my question: In which cases is it preferred to use "whether" over "if"? I often find myself writing something like: This function tests if the precision is calc...

usage

@Robusto I dunno. Traditions are like that.

Robusto

1:31 PM

Yeah. "We do it because we do it" seemed to be the general answer.

RegDwight

I mean, look, it's actually Easter that is the central feast. But X-Mas gets all the attention.

Robusto

Kinda like the old Fugs song lyric: "Why do you like boobs a lot? Ya gotta like boobs a lot."

Robusto

1:44 PM

"Descartes is sitting in a bar, having a drink. The bartender asks him if he would like another. 'I think not,' he says, and disappears." — Roy Sorenson, "Epistemic Paradoxes"

3

RegDwight

Hehe, yes, a good one.

Robusto

And now I gotta go. TTYL.

RegDwight

Have fun.

psmears

1:54 PM

Hi all

More modal wisdom from Dan here:

0

A: "Should" as past of "shall" / "Might" as past of "may"

Are you sure about the "No way lol"? How about: "I find I can tolerate it" in the present, versus "I found I could tolerate it" in the past? Similarly "I think I will stay", versus "I thought I would stay"? How about: "I find I could tolerate it" in the present? 1) How about: "I c...

Am I right in thinking that (1) this should really be a comment (or at least an edit to his other answer), and (2) the examples that he claims are ungrammatical are (in the right context) entirely grammatical?

RegDwight

Reading...

Oh well.

I remember commenting on one of his answers that SE is not your traditional forum etc. I think this answer is older than my comment.

I'm not sure what to do with his old stuff, but at least he doesn't seem to be posting new stuff of that kind.

psmears

2:10 PM

@RegDwight Yeah, fair enough. sometimes it's hard to encourage people to do the right thing :)

I guess I find the answer painful, because it sounds like he knows what he's talking about, and yet it's completely wrong (in my view, at least :)

RegDwight

Hahaha, look at my rep report. I must have pissed someone off. english.stackexchange.com/users/300/regdwight?tab=reputation

@psmears He's an ESL teacher, IIRC.

psmears

haha!

RegDwight

Oh wow, I would've never thought that it would be that user...

brilliant

Hello, RegDwight!!! Are you still here?!!! It's not me. It's my son. I am working at the moment to turn all his nice work back. He's done some damage here not only to you. Of, my God!!!

RegDwight

Hahaha.

psmears

2:18 PM

@RegDwight That only makes it worse :)

brilliant

Oh gosh! I can't reverse it back! What should I do? Can you edit those questins of yours, please, so that I could upvote them?

RegDwight

Relax.

Upvoting tons of stuff of mine is no better than downvoting it.

brilliant

How many of your questions did he downvote?

RegDwight

Both are considered suspicious by the system.

@brilliant I dunno, haven't counted.

The report is public.

english.stackexchange.com/users/300/regdwight?tab=reputation

brilliant

How can I find out? Through your report?

RegDwight

2:20 PM

Click on that link.

brilliant

Oh I see.

Oh no! 13!!! Please, edit them a bit.

RegDwight

Children and ELU just don't mix.)))

brilliant

Well, he now knows many things about the internet - but does not use them right. Please, edit them - I will upvote them, otherwise I will feel terribly bad.

RegDwight

@brilliant The downvotes will be retracted automatically by the system. As I said, relax.

Check back tomorrow, they will be gone.

F'x

@brilliant don't feel bad, he will reach the daily cap anyway :)

RegDwight

2:24 PM

@Fx Yes, I'm already at +1!

F'x

@RegDwight: I'm doing some more work to free my commitment to BCG

0

Q: Advice for an experienced gamer who'd like to play nomic games?

I am an experienced board gamer (and card too), with a particular affinity for collaborative games (Shadows over Camelot, Pandemic, etc.). I would like to take this a step further by studying self-government games in the style of Nomic. However, the learning step appears to be a bit steep. Given ...

recommendations

RegDwight

No wait, +7!

Me's rich!

F'x

if you have answer to that, feel free to contribute (and help lift your own curse)

brilliant

Aaah! I see. Thanks for telling me that. Okay, going away to another forum to repair another damage there.

RegDwight

@Fx I don't know anything about Nomic.

F'x

2:25 PM

that's what she said

or that would be: I don't know anything about no Mike!

but anyway, that's almost what she said

RegDwight

Let's just settle for "I don't know anything".

Or "I dunno."

F'x

never accept your ignorance

RegDwight

Or even shorter, "Huh???"

F'x

or "I dummy"

RegDwight

That's not shorter.

brilliant

2:29 PM

RegDwight - By the way, I just asked him, why he did that. You know what he said?? he said he doesn't like owls :) :) :)

RegDwight

Apr 8 at 20:30, by Robusto

That better?

brilliant

Why would you need to add a communist star to it?

RegDwight

So it looks less like an owl and more like a communist.

Everybody loves communists.

Even people who don't like owls.

brilliant

Well, he knows nothing about communists. he was born in Taiwan and has neever been to USSR or any other communist country

RegDwight

That's a problem indeed.

brilliant

2:33 PM

Gosh. He spiled my relationship with some programmers on the other forum. Unlike you, they did not believe me :(

*spoiled

F'x

I would love the chat engine to recognize the same substitution trick that Skype does

s/spiled/spoiled/

RegDwight

@brilliant You mean StackOverflow?

That place is huge.

F'x

is much shorter than this weird idea that you have to grab the mouse to correct a mistake you did with the keyboard

brilliant

No. Another one. AHK in Russian.

F'x

@RegDwight I hear it's so huge it spreads over 24 timezones!

RegDwight

2:36 PM

@Fx No way! There are that many timezones? Lies!

brilliant

It's funny. because he didn't downvoted anyone there - just typed all kinds of nonsense and sent it. People didn't like that...

F'x

@brilliant well, Russian text looks like nonsense anyway, what with all the funny letters

which funny letters?

Ж Ы Й

ДЖШ

2:39 PM

Something like that.

Jinx!

brilliant

I see. Is it like they are funny because they are not found in Latin?

To me they are just ordinary letters.

F'x

No: Јінх

RegDwight

At that BBQ party yesterday, everyone had their kids on display. You know you're getting old when your schoolfriends start bringing their offspring with them.

Not too old, thankfully. Most of those kids were like 2 years old.

How old is your son, @brilliant? If that's not a secret, of course.

F'x

depends on the kind of display…

brilliant

What BBQ party yesterday do you mean? He is six years old.

RegDwight

2:41 PM

I think Robusto will be a granpa in no time.

@brilliant Just a party with friends.

23 hours ago, by RegDwight

Then, a BBQ party with some friends.

brilliant

Oh I see.

RegDwight

Not an SE party.)))

@Fx Is that how they display their children in Paris?

F'x

I'm not in Paris :)

RegDwight

Okay, so where do they display their children like that in La Grande Nation?

I mean, no, I meant The Land of Frog Eaters, of course.

Sorry for the typo.

I had some frog in France once. Tasted like chicken IIRC.

F'x

“Im Französischen wird der Begriff „La Grande Nation“ nur geschichtlich und zwar im Zusammenhang mit der Napoleonischen Zeit verwendet und nicht auf das heutige Frankreich angewendet” (though I'm sure you already knew that)

brilliant

2:47 PM

All right, i got to go. Thank you, RegDwight, for staying positive.

F'x

@brilliant bye

RegDwight

@brilliant CU

@Fx That ain't Russian, methinks. Also, it doesn't answer my question.

F'x

@RegDwight frog is not fantastic; snails, andouilette, and steak tartare are

It is how we display children, but not today

RegDwight

Judging by the dates, you're in Chambéry.

Or Toulouse.

Or Lautrec.

psmears

Mar 31 at 23:02, by Alain Pannetier

Hey, I just discovered something. To edit your last chat, just press the up arrow.

RegDwight

2:51 PM

Um, yes?

That got starred like 8 times.

F'x

well, not working 100% here

psmears

@RegDwight It solves this problem

16 mins ago, by F'x

is much shorter than this weird idea that you have to grab the mouse to correct a mistake you did with the keyboard

F'x

only the last one, but yeah, thanks

RegDwight

@psmears Ah. I didn't even see that. Was busy talking at brilliant.

psmears

@RegDwight Fair enough :)

F'x

2:53 PM

anyway, see you later, gotta do something with my life

RegDwight

Have fun.

F'x

9:02 PM

hi there

RegDwight

Yo.

@Fx Yo, I said.

F'x

Yo yourself

Yoyo, if I may say so

can you tell me which symbol is displayed here: ♁

RegDwight

A circle with a cross on top of it.

F'x

it's not a riddle, I'm trying to understand some weird browser issue

good; what's your browser?

RegDwight

Chrome.

0

A: Word to refer to the person who creates something that gets reused or remixed?

progenitor An originator of a line of descent; a precursor. An originator; a founder: progenitors of the new music.

F'x

9:16 PM

and are you seeing the same one as my location here?

RegDwight

Yes.

F'x

for some reason, Firefox displays it as a circle with the cross inside

RegDwight

Perhaps the font creator has screwed it up or the specification is ambiguous or something.

F'x

I see how it could fail to provide some Unicode glyphs, but to mix two of them is beyond me

RegDwight

BTW, please have a look at the comments on the above answer.

Tell me that I'm not imagining it.

F'x

9:18 PM

Helvetica (Neue or not) is not the most unusual font

@RegDwight I disagree with the answer, and with the comment

regarding the +1, I don't have a strong ethical opinion about it :)

RegDwight

I'm looking for someone to confirm that the comment says "+1" but he hasn't actually upvoted the answer.

F'x

I confirm

RegDwight

Thank you.

F'x

though I might be a mere creation of your imagination

RegDwight

It's okay, at least now there are two of us.

F'x

9:21 PM

in which case you smoked more than sausage at your BBQ party

RegDwight

I'm a vegetarian.

Which is to say, yes, I smoke sausages. I just don't eat them.

F'x

@RegDwight if I might ask: out of religious, dietary, taste or ecoligical inclination?

RegDwight

Out of habit.

Seriously.

People keep wondering, but that is the actual reason.

F'x

don't want to pry, but though I love meat, I am wondering how to decrease my consumption

RegDwight

I once decided that I was a vegetarian, and so I have been ever since.

Nothing more.

Anyhow, what is with that symbol? Which location do you mean by that? Mt St Michel?

F'x

9:24 PM

anyway, bug apart, I now have the most accurate "location" field of all users of the site

you're The Other Unicode Geek, I'll let your do your homework

or not: U+2641 EARTH

RegDwight

I was just going to ask for the code.

Because Google is broken or something.

F'x

actually, it's not just Firefox: charbase.com/2641-unicode-earth

RegDwight

@Fx Well then google for "Earth symbol"

See those image results?

@Fx Yeah, or that.

There are two different symbols, it appears.

F'x

@RegDwight well, there's also the Stargat one :)

RegDwight

@Fx There's also the one Jin uses.

Can't remember what it's called.

F'x

9:31 PM

Jin ♦, Washington, DC

297 1 10

word-choice grammaticality single-word-requests terminology shapes

this one?

RegDwight

Yes, a trigram.

8164.org/%E2%98%B5%E2%98%B2

F'x

well, the trigram for Earth is ☷

RegDwight

Exactly.

He combines two in his avatar.

I just couldn't remember the name.

But I remembered that Jin uses them.

F'x

anyway, gotta go, Morpheus calling

ciao!

RegDwight

CU!

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