Jaami'at StackExchange al-Islamyya - 2013-03-21 (page 1 of 2)

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7:03 AM

assalamalaikum

@DhoweedYaAgov

"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), those who believe in Allah, and that which has been revealed to you and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah: They will not sell the Revelations of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account."
{Holy Quran 3:199}

user image

@MonicaCellio I was banned for 7 days for this message??

@DhoweedYaAgov you are accusing us of playing semantic games , then let me tell you that you are correct. What i wanted to convey that semantics game can be played by anyone . Jews are the first people to play the semantic game by using the word "jew" for past prophets and even tampered the meaning of torah . to include the word "Jewish"

e.g: Mi.yodeya motto is
"And speak of them" (Deut. 6:7) Speak of Jewish life and learning with the people of mi.yodeya.com" but when you goto see the verse Deut 6:7 you dont find anything close to "jewish" why add sectarian names to interpret things to your fancy?? this is what we called as suppressing the truth

3 hours later…

10:40 AM

Watching too much science-fictions may stupefy our logic.

@Ali You were chat banned for repeatedly posting content that you had been asked not to post in a certain room. Deliberatly reposting propoganda material after you had been specifically asked not to is a breach of chat etiquate. If you do it again you will be suspended for longer. Fair warning.

I'll let the I.SE mods decide about content allowed in this room, but rules about speaking respectfully about others (even when you disagree with them) are enforced across the entire SE network. Bashing on another religion, even in your own religion's room is not what this place is for.

11:04 AM

@Derfder I thought this might be useful to you ;) scifi.stackexchange.com

2 hours later…

12:48 PM

@Derfder Human logic is flawed, as it's based on 5 known scenes which translate reality, and as it's based on experiences which could also be incorrectly perceived.

1 hour later…

2:12 PM

@ali we never claimed ourselves as Jews. We were first called banei noahH line everyone else then we were called ivrim then banei Yisroel then yahudim and yashurun. We are still called all of these because each name means something.

It is obvious the torah is talking about banei Yisroel because that is whom Allah gave the Torah to.

We all call ourselves Jews to follow common speech now in order to differentiate between other religions. When the Torah was given, there were no other monotheistic religions. It was already known that if you said banei Yisroel you mean a monotheist therefore when new monotheistic religions were invented, people had to distinguish between judaism and Christianity. Because Christianity was started by Jews too. So to say you are banei Yisroel is not

a description of your religion anymore since you can be a jew or a Christian

2:45 PM

@Caleb MAY i know how i "bashed" other religions ? speaking the truth can seem to be bashing to some i guess or is it that truth is so obvious that you cant stand it?

@DhoweedYaAgov Good , so better call yourself as Bani Israelites , muslims also dont call themselves Bani israelites(some do)

@Ali If you refuse to treat other users with a modicum of respect, you are likely to be suspended again.

anyways Bani israel has been divorced by God

-1

Q: Certificate of Divorce by God to Israel

I find the following verse to be very harsh as it gives a pink slip of Divorce to Israel and Judah Jeremiah 3:8: וָאֵרֶא, כִּי עַל-כָּל-אֹדוֹת אֲשֶׁר נִאֲפָה מְשֻׁבָה יִשְׂרָאֵל, שִׁלַּחְתִּיהָ, וָאֶתֵּן אֶת-סֵפֶר כְּרִיתֻתֶיהָ אֵלֶיהָ; וְלֹא יָרְאָה בֹּגֵדָה יְהוּדָה, אֲחוֹתָהּ--וַתֵּלֶךְ, ו...

parshanut-torah-comment am-yisrael-jewish-nation divorce yirmiyahu--book-of

@goldPseudo Thanks for the notification

@Ali "Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say: return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; I will not frown upon you; for I am merciful, saith the LORD, I will not bear grudge for ever."

@goldPseudo :Undoubtedly God is merciful, hence wont frown towards his "divorced wife"

Is there any proof that the divorce has been annulled?

Fi amanallah

you do realize that it was a metaphorical divorce, right?

God did not actually take a wife.

3:15 PM

@Ali, please do not ping me in other sites' rooms. If you want to have a respectful discussion with the Mi Yodeya community, you know where to find us. If you want to continue your campaign to promote Islam and criticize Jews based on your faulty readings of our texts (and apparently even a misreading of the name of our chat room), I'm not interested.

@Ali, you were banned for a day for inappropriate posts after multiple warnings. You didn't learn from that and were banned for a week. If you don't learn from that, the next ban will be longer. The problems have been explained to you repeatedly, and I see no need to further repeat discussions that we have already had. (Also, as a point of order, while I support the week-long ban I am not the one who did it.)

@Ali I didn't know you were a follower of Islam.

3:46 PM

@goldPseudo yup i know its metaphorical

i have asked 65+ questions on J.SE was actively involved with them but before coming to J.SE i did not know much about Judaism in spite having a lot of curiosity to know more, and now i practically realized why the quran says what it says at an experiential level

@MonicaCellio Quoting quran is not respectful?

fi amanallah

4:25 PM

Hi @DhoweedYaAgov how are you doing

Do you have muslim friends?

@ali you are not Muslim either you are banei India/ hodu so don't call yourself Muslim

@ali yes I do

I am doing Boruch Hashem alhamdulliah

I am doing good*

@DhoweedYaAgov have u read QURAN?

Yes

i mean from start to end?

and do you know arabic?

No

4:32 PM

56 secs ago, by Ali

i mean from start to end?

No

But I read the first and last surrah lol

Surah FATIHA?

Idk it was long ago

I also read the surrah bout Yosef and Mosha Rabbeinu and him being inpatient and putting a bad image on him

Astagfurallah

Translation:

In the name of God, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.
All praise and thanks is for to God, [The] Creator, Owner, Sustainer of the Worlds.
The Entirely Merciful, The Especially Merciful.
Owner of the Day of Recompense.
You alone do we worship and You alone we seek for help.
Guide us to the Straight Path.
The path of those whom Your blessings are upon, not of those who You have cursed nor of those who have gone astray.

Yes

@ali have you read the torah in hebrew from start to end and all the nabee'eem and kitabeem

From start to finish

4:43 PM

I started reading but did not continue

In hebrew?

Ofcourse i dont know hebrew

as i am a hindu

as i live in INDIA

Right

Banei hindiyah/hodu

ya but a muslim by religion

No as an Islamist by religion

4:46 PM

Muslim=one who follows Islam(submission to the will of God)

Mu+Islam

Yes Jews and Christians were original muslims

and not as a race of iSLAM

We are Muslim too

people of the past were indeed Muslim

And Jews now are indeed Muslim

Not Christians

4:48 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov Is is islam your race or religion?

Religion

thanks!

What does that have to do with anything

It does as you are a Muslim as u claim

Yea like I said semantics

4:52 PM

ya we should talk in real semantics, not proper names , proper names have no practical meanings. Word muslim has a literal meaning

Words applied in different context mean diff things

why can't you two just use words the same way the rest of the world does?

5

crying "semantics" is not an effective replacement for speaking clearly in the first place.

2

Because how ever one does it is wrong

i'm not convinced either of you even know what you're arguing about anymore.

Just like calling Jews Jews is wrong

I'm in class ATM ill be back in a few

4:56 PM

10 hours ago, by Ali

user image

Jew (plural Jews)

An adherent of Judaism.
A person who claims a cultural or ancestral connection to the Jewish people (see secular Jew).

jews-for-allah.org

@Ali Just a note: being an Indian doesn't make you a Hindu. Hinduism is a religion.

"Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses." Holy Koran 3:81

@ManishEarth manish hinduism is not a religion as said by many scholars like swami vivekananad, Jawaharlal Nehru etc

u can read discovery of INDIA by Nehru

Hinduism is the predominant religion of the Indian subcontinent. Hinduism includes Shaivism, Vaishnavism and Śrauta among numerous other traditions. Among other practices and philosophies, Hinduism includes a wide spectrum of laws and prescriptions of "daily morality" based on karma, dharma, and societal norms. Hinduism is a conglomeration of distinct intellectual or philosophical points of view, rather than a rigid common set of beliefs. Hinduism is formed of diverse traditions and has no single founder. Among its direct roots is the historical Vedic religion of Iron Age India and, as...

Oh, you mean the view that "hinduism is a philosophy of life". Hm.

4:59 PM

Hinduism (countable and uncountable; plural Hinduisms)

A religion, philosophy and culture native to India, characterized by the belief in reincarnation and a supreme oneness personified in many forms and natures.

religion is dharma

and correct term is sanatan dharma

evey indian is a hindu

red indians probably aren't.

ya

the vedas never call the dharama as hindusim

etc etc

jews-for-allah.org/messianic-jews

5:03 PM

@Ali "Indian" is a nationality. I concede that hinduism can be viewed as a philosophy, but this doesn't mean that every Indian follows that. What about Anglo-Indians?

@ManishEarth Manish can we meetup u live in mumbai

and mee to

irf.net/…

Not interested :/ Don't have the time either. Got a lot of quizzes coming up.

actually i know u:))

?

:))

5:05 PM

Classmate? Which course?

ok we can take that offline

@ManishEarth every indian is a hindustani and HINDU is derived from sindhi river valley for those who live beyond sindhu river were called hindus.

@Ali That's the origin of the word. That's not the current meaning. "Sinister" initially meant "left". It now has a rather different meaning.

2

hindusim per se is not a religion at all even though the government decides what hindusim is and what its not

@ManishEarth star for that!. Meaning of religion does not change

dharma does not change

"hinduism" changes like how govts change in india

even athiesm is included in ambit of hinduism

irf.net/…

irf.net/…

@ManishEarth i hope you have listened to archive.org/details/…

to know about the jewish muslim equation : jews-for-allah.org/Jews-and-Muslims-Agree

5:24 PM

@goldPseudo Star.

hi @DoubleAA welcome to ISLAM

.SE

HI

Hello

Salam

Is all the world true? chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8616907#8616907

in V'dibarta Bam, 2 mins ago, by Double AA

in Islam, 31 mins ago, by goldPseudo

why can't you two just use words the same way the rest of the world does?

@Noah walekum assalaam

ahlan wa sahlan

@goldPseudo And that includes you:)

@Noah i'm more of a pink indian. part red, part white.

5:30 PM

@goldPseudo I was really interested to know how you become muslim apart from hearing the QUran

i heard, i understood, i accepted. there's really no story there.

@goldPseudo That reminds of an interesting fact, back in the old days if you were black , great. If you were white, great. But if you were none of the two, oh, boy you were in trouble.

@goldPseudo Are you a convert?

I am a Muslim.

@goldPseudo So you started praying? on ur own?

@Noah he is a revert, all are born Muslim

I really don't care for people being labelled differently just because they were or were not born and raised Muslim.

5:34 PM

@goldPseudo I know that. But were you a Muslim all along?

I am not a convert, nor a revert. I am a Muslim.

LOL

@Noah I was raised with no religious inclinations.

I learned about Islam in high school.

Omm. And your parents?

i don't know what they learned in high school. a bit before my time.

5:38 PM

Omm. You are not 90? Do they follow any religion?

i'm really not comfortable answering that.

No prob. It's okay.

So how's life?

You are a good mod. I would give you a medal of honor if...

i actually need to be heading out right now.

Okay, see you later

When you come back we may discuss islam.stackexchange.com/questions/7484/…

@goldPseudo Islam is he religion of fitra \dharma \ perfect way you are a revert to Islam hence a muslim

5:48 PM

@Ali I don't care; i hate the term, and am offended when people use it to refer to me.

Babies are born as Muslim =Submission to Allah swt

revert is a concept not a proper unmeaningful name

@ali there is no such thing as religion. Religion started after offshoots of judaism spread

Just as a child’s body submits to the physical laws which Allah has put in nature, its soul also submits naturally to the fact that Allah is its Lord and Creator. But its parents try to make it follow their own way and the child is not strong enough in the early stages of its life to resist or oppose its parents. The religion which the child follows at this stage is one of custom and upbringing and Allah does not hold it to account for this religion.

When your Lord drew forth from the loins of the children of Aadam their descendants and made them testify concerning themselves. Saying: Am I not your Lord? They said: “Yes, we testify to it.” (This) in case you say on the Day of Judgement, “We were unaware of this.” Or in case you say: It was our ancestors who made partners (with Allah) and we are only their descendants…[Surah Al-A’raaf 7:172-173]

did the prophet ever refer to anyone as a "revert"?

@DhoweedYaAgov I agree Judaism is an ofshoot of Islam

5:54 PM

Judaism is islam

For Jews

And for people who follow the religion of islam now think their religion Is the real islam

@goldPseudo yes he did gave the concept and not the name

and i told u revert is a concept not name

Allah then explained why He had all of mankind bear witness that He was their Creator and the only true God worthy of worship. He said: That was in case you (mankind) should say on the Day of Resurrection, “Surely we were unaware of all this. We had no idea that You were our God.” [Silsilah al ahadeeth

]

When I said Jews are muslims I meant Jews submit to Allah just as the torah prescribes

missionislam.com/discover/believeitornot.htm

And that is proper submission to HaShem

like Islam is not name its a semantical concept

5:57 PM

Yes

Just like the word judaism is not a word

It's semantics

@DhoweedYaAgov So Judaism is an ofshoot of Islam like christianity

What... I said judaism is islam

"judaism " word does not denote the concept of Islam

Not to you but to me it does

Hinduism\christianity\judaism are all proper names of persons\places\events

\tribes

do you know why we forget names of people so easily?

Pshycologists say that proper names have no meanings attached and dont form a connection to prior knowledge hence are difficult to remmber

but concepts \semantics are the correct things to use

6:02 PM

What are you talking about....?

@DhoweedYaAgov dont talk in symbols talk in semantics

because symbols can have any meaning depending on the frames of reference

Allah gave banei Yisroel the Torah and we follow it and we are muslims to the fullest extent. What the followers of Mohammed and the Quran say is that the "muslims" Are the followers if Mohammed and the Quran

That is where disagree. That is why I say I am Muslim

Bani Israel was indeed Muslim if they followed God's commandment

Sorry the "new muslims"

but now ?

6:05 PM

But now nothing. Nothing changed except for HaShem punishing us until we repent for our sins

And that is what will trigger the coming of Malach HaMoshiahH

It's not hard to understand unless you throw random words around and to in circles

People who follow Quran say they are the new Jews and we who follow the Torah say we still are Jews

@DhoweedYaAgov No

K

@DhoweedYaAgov judaismtoislam.blogspot.in/2013/02/jews-in-hadith.html

I don't need your random links to teach me judaism

@DhoweedYaAgov this link is from a technical jew who became muslim recently

by what i read at J.SE a jew remains a jew

technically

or what u would call "halachically"

6:12 PM

And?

I bet he doesn't even know how to learn a piece of gemoroh

halal is kosher

Let alone followed judaism

and vice versa

Ill take a look once I get home

also read here why halal is kosher : jews-for-allah.org/Jews-and-Muslims-Agree/halal_is_kosher.htm

6:14 PM

I know for fact it's not

Like I said I don't need your links to teach my judaism I am only going to look at the links to see more info bout this supposed jew who converted

Karaite Jews and many others consider it to be halal

Karaite Jews don't follow judaism

she has very interesting stuff and i know her too

Also that is questionable although I don't know karaite laws but its not so simple

@DhoweedYaAgov Its like protestants saying catholics are not christians

6:18 PM

If its a her it's already a problem lol

No it's like saying messianic Jews are jews

chabad are jews?

Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said: "Every child is born on the "fitrah" (natural inclination) of "Islam" (surrender, submission and peace to the Creator on His Terms). And it is their parents who raise them up to be Jews, Christians or fire worshippers."

Al Ummat مجاهد

@Ali then how can you say you are Hindu? Hinduism (as far as I know is a religion not a nationality

@Ali Wa Alaikum salam

@AlUmmatمجاهد No hindusim is not a religion

i have already explained that why

Al Ummat مجاهد

ok

@Ali Well, if he said that, he was wrong.

6:24 PM

1 hour ago, by Ali

the vedas never call the dharama as hindusim

@AlUmmatمجاهد read the preceding discussion to above

@DhoweedYaAgov I testify “La ilah illa Allah, Muhammad rasoolu Allah.”

The translation of which is:

“I testify that there is no true god (deity) but God (Allah), and that Muhammad is a Messenger (Prophet) of God.”

"Ali has invited you to join Islam. See your invitations." As I've noted, you should not use Stack Exchange as a platform for proselytizing.... Oh, wait a second. That means Islam the chat room, not Islam the religion. Never mind. Anyway, stop issuing me invitations here, too, please, @Ali. You can always ping me in V'dibarta Bam if you want me.

@ali I already explained to you that that statement is wrong and that that statement applies to the followers of Quran too

@msh210 That interpretation hadn't occurred to me. Rather amusing.

La Illah IllaAllah Musa RasuAllah

(Perhaps this chat room should be renamed.)

El'endia Starman

6:29 PM

@TRiG Remember that day when some of us at C.SE joked about "Loading Christianity"?

La Illah IllaAllah Musa RasuAllah

muslims also say and believe that

@El'endiaStarman Fully loaded Christianity!

o i need o go for now so sorry:((

a fully loaded room :)

by the time please read the transcripts from chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8610204#8610204

11 hours ago, by Ali

@DhoweedYaAgov

"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), those who believe in Allah, and that which has been revealed to you and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah: They will not sell the Revelations of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account."
{Holy Quran 3:199}

fi amanallah till then

7:04 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov The Quran is very objective when it comes to Israelites and anyone else.

The Quran praises them:

2:47, 2:122
"Children of Israel! Recall My favour which I bestowed upon you, exalting you above all nations."

45:16
"Indeed We endowed the Children of Israel with the Book and Wisdom and Prophethood, and provided them with good things as sustenance, and exalted them above the peoples of the whole world."

Then the Quran reprimands them:

Worshipping the calf (2:51)
Corrupting the Scriptures (2:75-79, 5:41)

@ali this doesnt prove anything

i dont know why you are showing me quran quotes

showing the quran says nice things bout jews wont make me want to believe in the quran

Quran is a message for those who claim to be jews

anymore or anyless then before

at least read it

Torah was the message for past nations

i dont need to read it because i already know bout it

no it was for jews

not nations

7:06 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov Ya bani israel to be paticular

to be specific/accurate

ya

Torah was for bani israel only

yes

and the non jews had to follow us

Quran is for all Mankind

even Gospels were for the lost sheep

dont jump around the board

you are touching subjects which you have no knowledge about

Al Ummat مجاهد

7:08 PM

@Ali to be more accurate/specific, it is for all, not just Muslims

Quran is for all Mankind

all nations

i told you already Allah gave banei Yisroel the Torah and we follow it and we are muslims to the fullest extent. What followes of mohammed and the quran say is that the "new" muslims are the followers of mohammed and the quran
That is where disagree. That is why I say I am Muslim

i had this convo with @AlUmmatمجاهد already

if the quran contradicts the torah it is not true

therefore we dont accept it

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DhoweedYaAgov convo?

So i wont frown on your right to Call yourself as muslim unlike other at VB who do

conversation

no jew frowns upon me calling jews muslim

if i explain to them what i mean

they agree

7:11 PM

We Muslims are also waiting for the Messiah its called: mehdi

according to judaism you are not muslim

Al Ummat مجاهد

@Ali really? what's the Proof? what is Issa?

He is also a Messiah

Mehdi to is messiah

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DhoweedYaAgov and according to Islam everyone is born a Muslim/on Fitrah

Messaih means :annointed one

Al Ummat مجاهد

7:12 PM

@Ali wheres the proof?

@Ali yes I am aware

I take Messiah as concept

and not a mere name

please don't redefine terms to suit your fancies. "The Messiah" has a particular meaning.

lots of discrepancies are solved if you use words for what they mean

Al Ummat مجاهد

@Ali I am not rejecting that the Mehdi will come, we believe that He will come and there are authentic proofs to support, but where is The Mahdi called the Maseeh?

if you want to refer to other "messiahs", don't use "The".

7:15 PM

O sorry i got it wrong

@AlUmmatمجاهد yes according to judaism everyone is born a believer in HaShem

and His Oness

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DhoweedYaAgov that comes with belief, if there is no tawheed, one cannot be a believer :)

I am am afraid but i wont speak of things of Unseen

@AlUmmatمجاهد what is a muslim? one who submits to HaShem

and i dont know about it

Al Ummat مجاهد

7:17 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov what else?

@DhoweedYaAgov What is Hashem?

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DhoweedYaAgov HaShem = God/Allah right?

thats it

yes

@DhoweedYaAgov first you need to explain who is God

jewish babies are learned Torah in the womb

7:18 PM

proof?

@ali He Is Who He Is

@Ali Ahyah Asher Ahyah

Anyways if you submit to Allah swt you are indeed a Muslim

Allah explains who is he in the Quran:

Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Raheem
1 Qul huwa Allahu ahad
2 Allahu 's-samad
3 Lam yalid wa lam yulad
4 Wa lam yakul lahu kufuwan ahad

English Translation by Muhammad Shameem, Mohammad Wali Raazi and Muhammad Taqi Usmani:[1]

Say, “The truth is: Allah is One. [1] Allah is Besought of all, needing none. [2] He neither begot anyone, nor he was begotten. [3] And equal to Him has never been any one.”[4]

@Ali Talmud (Niddah 30b), every Jewish baby is taught all of Torah in its mother's womb just prior to birth, after which it is sworn to fulfill all the misSwoth and his or her own personal potential. Just before birth, the angel "touches" the child below the nose (causing that unusual single channel between the nose and upper lip),

causing forgetfulness. Post-birth life is for recalling that knowledge in the pursuit of truth. Therefore, learning Torah is more a process of recollection than it is of learning "new" ideas. That is why a person, upon understanding a concept, feels a sense of familiarity with the idea as if he once knew it but forgot it, and will often say, "Ahaaaah. I get it."

@DhoweedYaAgov Ok i agree with that Torah is a revelation so what ? It was meant for Bani Israel

@ali and the non jews had to learn from us

they didnt get a book

we were their middle man

7:23 PM

So Muslims claim that everyone is born Muslim, and Jews claim they're taught Torah in the womb. This is, on a certain level, rather amusing. But perhaps I'm being small-minded.

Dont worry i am not saying you can't be Muslim you can be surely

Al Ummat مجاهد

@TRiG As for our belief that everyone born Muslim/on the fitrah, it makes sense, it is illogical to not believe in God

@TRiG Thats not what torah says but an interpretation by fallible rabbis in Talmud. Its rather far fetched

i am not your "muslim"

36 secs ago, by Ali

@TRiG Thats not what torah says but an interpretation by fallible rabbis in Talmud. Its rather far fetched

7:26 PM

@ali if you disagree about jews accepting the talmud then you should not accept the hadeeth

45 secs ago, by DhoweedYaAgov

i am not your "muslim"

Ok you are your Muslim!

@Ali "I often quote myself. It adds spice to the conversation." Bernard Shaw.

@TRiG i always love you to be around

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DhoweedYaAgov why is that?

Why should we not accept the Ahadeeth?

because it is almost the same concept as talmud

7:28 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov Hadith is sayings of Muhammad pbuh

talmud is not saying of Moses pbuh

@ali and talmud is oral teachings of Mosha Rabbeinu

Talmud is oral law

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DhoweedYaAgov so

Hadith and talmud cannot be compared

hadith contains exact VERBATIM WORDS of Muhammad pbuh

Al Ummat مجاهد

the authentic Hadith to be more specific and accurate

7:29 PM

@ali @AlUmmatمجاهد i can prove even authentic hadeeth wrong

as i did already

We believe that its not just the Quran which is preserved but also every utterance of Muhammad pbuh is preserved, and it had to be , he is the final MESSENGER PBUH

Salam

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DhoweedYaAgov Really? how?

@owari Wa Alaikum salam

@Ali hadith contains what people think are the verbatim words of muhammad. there are many many ahadith which transmit meaning rather than word-for-word.

and often times authentic hadith have different wording through different chains of transmission.

YA

but I am talking about the verbatim ones

7:32 PM

@ali you dont know what your talking about

Al Ummat مجاهد

@Ali they aren't the only ones

Sure

Authentic hadith reflects the sayings of Muhammad pbuh

Al Ummat مجاهد

and as for different wordings in authentic Hadith, many times that is on the part of the narrator, to clarify a word it is known as Idraj

I dont know science of hadith though

Al Ummat مجاهد

@Ali the sayings of the Prophet isn't the only definition of Hadith, they are not only His sayings but also....

7:34 PM

and leechblock is expiring , i need to go

Talmud is not at par with hadith at all

@AlUmmatمجاهد there's also the possibility that the prophet said the same basic idea in different words at different times, and we just think that they're the same transmission. it's open to interpretation.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@goldPseudo yes, but the situations are also known behind the Hadith, for example one man came to the Prophet and ask can I kiss my wife while I am fasting, He said yes, another man came and asked and He said no, the man whom He said yes to was old, the other was young,

derivative works and fiqh books like fiqh us sunnah can be analogous to talmud

The Quran doesn’t replace the Torah

The Quran teaches that the word of God can never be altered, verifying the Jewish belief that the laws of the Torah stand for all time.

Quran 6:115
And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing

The Quran never presented itself as a replacement to the Torah as the Jewish people were commanded to keep its laws forever. The Quran was sent as a guidance for mankind to live by and it was delivered to people capable of spreading the deen of Allah to the four corners of the e…

Some Jews misinterpret the Torah

There are several instances of the Quran accusing some Jews of misinterpreting the Torah. Today this has lead many Muslims to mistakenly believe that the text of the Torah is corrupt – despite the Quran never making such a claim.

Quran 4:46
Among the Jews are those who misinterpret [tahrif] words from their [proper] usages and say, “We hear and disobey” and “Hear but be not heard” and “Ra’ina,” twisting their tongues and defaming the religion.

@ali please refrain from spamming us with cut-and-paste from sites.

Ya Rabee Ya Ra7man

7:51 PM

What's the discussion about? I couldn't understand

3 hours ago, by goldPseudo

i'm not convinced either of you even know what you're arguing about anymore.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@owari not quite sure

@TRiG I see, thanks, and you @AlUmmatمجاهد, thanks.

Ali seems to look up debating points and then use them without really understanding them himself. (He doesn't actually debate with people: debate requires listening, and then responding to what people actually say, not to what you imagine they're going to say. As I said before, he uses people as mannequins he can throw half-understood arguments at.) Meanwhile, DhoweedYaAgov was using deliberately obscure terminology, apparently for the fun of it.

2

If you want to attempt to decipher what was actually going on, feel free. I didn't bother.

@TRiG I only understood that they are talking about the phrase Islam and that who is really a Muslim or not, is that right?

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