Discussion about Islam's view of Judaism and assorted extended discussions - 2013-02-27

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7:37 PM

@DoubleAA You know, usually I'm one of the first to say "the question in its current form is valid, let's all remove our downvotes", but I'm getting real tired real fast of these leading questions that are thinly veiled arguments for another religion.

2

@HodofHod I removed my downvote but I agree that at a certain point, users who obviously are only interested in proselytizing should be banned. It's not worth the occasional interesting question that might emerge by accident.

2

@HodofHod I can understand your frustration, but I believe the best thing to do is upvote what is upvote-worthy, downvote what is downvote-worthy, flag what is flag-worthy, and suspend whoever is suspend-worthy.

Now I know he hasn't used Vista: :-)

the point is that Quran complements the torah and does not reject it, Infact all 10 commandments are better fullfilled due to Quran. God with each revelations makes our way more easier. Like windows was made more easier in each version and yet all versions complemented each other better @DoubleAA — Ali 5 mins ago

@MonicaCellio ha

His analogy is actually perfect

Windows 95 for life

7:56 PM

@DoublAA So maybe after we are mekayem the last, I will be mekayem the first. I'm the meantime I'm removing my downvote.

@HodofHod He just finished a period of suspension. You know I can't discuss the details of it and/or related mod messages, but I can assure you we are keeping an eye on him.

Just finished and that was his next question?

@DoubleAA I'm unfamiliar with se standards and practices - not with regards to this user, but in general, what does it take to receive a permanent ban?

@HodofHod exactly - it's like they're not even trying to give the impression of not being here for the sole purpose of proselytizing

Maybe I don't understand the perspective but it seems like not a good approach even if that was the goal

@yoel I've never done it and am not entirely familiar with the processes. (b"H this doesn't happen often.) See here to start blog.stackoverflow.com/2009/04/a-day-in-the-penalty-box

It's possible that I am missing some cultural context, though - @AlUmmatمجاهد is there some principle at work here with regards to not giving up and continuing to proselytize irregardless of a community's standards of conduct?

@DoubleAA it seems like it's strongly discouraged at the least

Doesn't that possibly condemn the mods here to an unending cycle of renewing the suspension each time the user asks a blatantly leading and proselytizing question?

One would expect that they will eventually get bored but faith can produce a single-mindedness undeterred by suspended accounts.

8:07 PM

@yoel Generally speaking, the time the account is suspended for grows with each violation, IIUC.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel well, as I have said before there is no such thing as proselytizing in Islam, rather it is among the muslims, but this is wrong practice, Muslims and Islam are two different things. As for Da'wah, it is obligatory on all Muslism according to their ability, so meaning if they want to increase their ability, they would need to gain more knowledge.

this is what we believe and what islam teaches: "Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided."

I put emphasis on the words wisdom and best

@AlUmmatمجاهد I completely appreciate the distinction internally, as we in Judaism make many internal distinctions that are not immediately apparent to outsiders, but da'wah comes across as proselytizing to others.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel yes, and this needs to be clarified, because proselytizing is not of Islam, it is of Muslims :)

Hmmm

Da‘wah or Dawah () means the proselytizing or preaching of Islam. Da‘wah literally means "issuing a summons" or "making an invitation", being the active participle of a verb meaning variously "to summon" or "to invite" (whose triconsonantal root is ). A Muslim who practices da‘wah, either as a religious worker or in a volunteer community effort, is called a dā‘ī, plural du‘āt. A dā‘ī is thus a person who invites people to understand Islam through a dialogical process, and may be categorized in some cases as the Islamic equivalent of a missionary, as one who invites people to the faith,...

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DoubleAA "needs attention from an expert in Religion"

8:11 PM

@AlUmmatمجاهد :) Be my guest!

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DoubleAA I don't intend :) I was just pointing out, it says that in the box ontop of the article

@AlUmmatمجاهد It is always worth taking Wikipedia with a grain of salt.

Al Ummat مجاهد

also I will point out, wikipedia isn't that reliable

especially for information on islam

@DoubleAA yeah

the above article you linked is very contradicting

if someone reads it, they see the word proselytizing , and then they see the words summon and invitation, they are going to get confused when reading it

@AlUmmatمجاهد I'm still not sure I understand how, even from a point of view of Islam, it's not proselytizing. Do I understand you correctly that dawah is to invite others to consider the beliefs and teachings of islam?

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel Dawah can also be defined as trying to spread the truth. Yes, your understanding is correct, we only have to deliver this message of truth and that is it, no attempt to convert, though conversion is a consequence of dawah, but the intention of dawah is to deliver the message.

the rest is then between that person and God

no forcing. I am not saying that forcing did not happen some time, some where

but this is not natural, nor is it part of islam

8:18 PM

@AlUmmatمجاهد so... your point of distinction is that you are not trying to convert anybody, only to present to them the point of view of islam so that they should consider it.

Isn't the hope that they will convert?

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel the hope is that God will guide them, not only them but us, we say in our prayers "Guide us to the straight path", and we pray five times a day

so the hope is not to convert, but spread the truth

@AlUmmatمجاهد the hope is that a person who hears dawah will submit to G-d's will, right?

Al Ummat مجاهد

also I should mention, there is no such thing as conversion in Islam

only reversion

@yoel If someone hears the message, and if it is God's will for them to be guided then they would be guided, I cannot be guided if it was not God's will

if something is His will it happens, if it is not it will never happen.

@AlUmmatمجاهد this last point is obvious and taken for granted in Jewish thought, but at the same time we have free will.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel yes of course

but God knows everything, He knows what we will choose

predestination is a very heavy subject

and I do not wish to get into it

8:27 PM

@AlUmmatمجاهد agreed

Let me hopefully shorten this discussion - is Ali performing dawah, or is he proselytizing?

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel I have no idea, He says He is trying to do Da'wah, and I do not want to argue with Him, what He is doing would seem very much like proselytizing. What He is doing is very annoying, and as I have tried to make clear to Him in our chatroom the other day, that no one will want to hear if they are continually annoyed, and that there are better ways to do Da'wah. And as another moderator on Islam.SE has brought up, the SE model is for knowledge not for Da'wah

@AlUmmatمجاهد I don't disagree with you, but theologically speaking, why would one not want to fulfill dawah? As you probably know, Jews have no particular incentive or obligation to spread knowledge of our Torah to non-Jews, but if we did, I imagine nothing so mundane as a website's model would stop me.

@Ali: ya it is but what about the people?? are the people who interpret torah infallible? It would be fairly easy for even the most learned to misunderstand the torah as clearly seen by the conflicting opinions of many rabbis . More ever what my main point is that God has made it easier for nations to fulfill the commandments of Torah through the Quran. Does not the QUran fulfill all commandments of God in Torah? @DoubleAA

(re judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/26646/…)

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel ok, let me try to put this in simple words. Let us say that there are two bodys, ones says that 2 + 2 is 4, the other one says it is 3. Of course the one who says it is 4 is correct, so it is obligated on the one who says it is 4 to tell the other one that no it is not 3 it is four. But if someone does not know that it equals 4 then He obviously must learn to teach the other one. similarly it is an obligation on all Muslims to teach the truth, give Da'wah

to the best of their ability

and knowledge,

thanks @msh210 you always were very helpful

Al Ummat مجاهد

8:38 PM

but if they don't know they must learn, hence knowledge is equally or more important than Da'wah

if one does not know one cannot do Da'wah

@AlUmmatمجاهد okay, so you're saying a person also has an obligation to learn in order to teach?

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel exactly

And, to assume positive intent, this is what Ali is doing, albeit with great difficulty separating one goal from the other?

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel when doing Da'wah one must also look at their surroundings, and Ali would seem not to be doing this very well, and I do not mean any offense to Him, and I do not want to make Him look bad by saying this

nor am I trying to backbite

I am saying this for you to understand His reasoning , and how He thinks, and we think, but what I say is what I know of Him, and as far as I know His intentions are good

it is just timing and placing

oh and I see He is currently in the room, @Ali if you want to follow the discussion, please read from here

@yoel no, but do you understand?

@AlUmmatمجاهد completely, and to be totally clear, I am not trying to speak badly about @Ali either.

As I said above, I think that if I was in his position I would act similarly

It just happens that Judaism has no prerogative with regards to "proselytizing" or "spreading knowledge".

On a completely different note, I wonder if dawah and da'at are etymologically related.

Al Ummat مجاهد

8:52 PM

@yoel no, each site on SE is for a particular field of knowledge, you want to ask about math go to the mathmatics site and the same with christianity and Islam

@yoel Both words come from the Root Da'a دعا

which means to invite or make supplication to God

@AlUmmatمجاهد da'at in Hebrew means knowledge.

Al Ummat مجاهد

Da'wah is short for Adda'wah Illa Llah الدعوة إلى الله inviting to Allah (not sure of my translation, it might be shaky)

@yoel If I felt the need to preach the truth of Judaism to people who don't currently believe it, I'd do so somewhere other than on SE, which is not designed for preaching.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel oh ok, I though you meant Da'at as in those who make Da'wah

@AlUmmatمجاهد @IsaacMoses this is the best analogy I can come up with, and more or less what I see @Ali as doing: this site generally supports a pluralistic view wherein answers from different streams of thought in Judaism (namely, conservative and reform) are acceptable, although in practice this rarely happens.

As I believe that those movements (apologies to their adherents) are not grounded in Jewish law and tradition, I am not going to choose to upvote them, nor do I necessarily feel that they could be answered properly within scope.

In this, I am exercising a world view that is not entirely in line with this site.

I guess the big difference, though, is that I'm not going and asking question after question with the barely concealed goal of convincing reform and conservative Jews to consider orthodoxy.

8:57 PM

@IsaacMoses i am not certainly preaching but asking questions which really perplexes me about JUdaism. The worst one can say that the questions are "PRESSING" but definately by no standards prosyletizing

proselytizing would mean that i would use Quranic verses and call you to Islam directly

@Ali do you really believe that?

@Ali No. It just means calling to Islam directly. It doesn't have to do with what you quote.

@Ali I'm not going to get into a debate of semantics. My objections to individual behaviors are noted in those locations.

@yoel What "the site" says about this is a bit unclear, but here's one upvoted view (mine), which, I think, is not too far from yours.

@yoel That's a huge difference.

@IsaacMoses I assumed that since we lacked consensus, we should assume the more open position. But yes, I agree completely with your view there.

@IsaacMoses I know, I was just trying to see things from @Ali's point of view, which is difficult since we don't have a concept of dawah. That was just the best I could come up with.

frankly speaking i had never imagined to have such discoveries and my earlier questions were sincere attempts to know the truth but people have the habit of reading between the lines and i was constructively discouraged to ask questions, anyways i learned a lot about Islam from here too

juddaism helps us to know the big picture of Islam

9:06 PM

@Ali I think that initially the problem was twofold - on one hand, you were not aware that we regard our tradition as a continuum of knowledge ranging from the first man through our rabbis today, whereas other religions divide history by epochal events. Note that while muslims count from hejira and xians count from yoshke's birth, Judaism counts from creation.

The second problem is that now that you do know that, by refusing to accept rabbinic sources that aren't "old enough", you are refusing to accept Jewish answers to questions on Judaism.

@yoel WE TOO count from creation AH, CE are mere tools of convenience

Whoops, that's actually the third problem - the second problem was that your questions were ALL leading to the notion that the quran somehow completes or perfects or fixes the Torah.

Every single question.

@Ali okay, but what I'm saying is that we make no such distinctions, even from the birth of Avraham Avinu or from receiving Torah at Har Sinai.

and we too regard our traditions as a continuum of knowledge ranging from the first man through all the prophets of God upto the final messenger of God

@Ali that's not true, though - you believe that a later prophet had to come along to fix things.

We say it was never in need of repair.

This means that according to islam there was a break at some point.

No not to fix things but to make it easier for people to follow !

9:09 PM

@Ali doesn't islam teach that the Torah the Jews have is corrupted or incorrect in some way?

@yoel That's a relatively new phenomenon.

@DoubleAA what is, counting from creation?

Prophets like Abraham, Moses, Muhammad are mesengers which come with God's law system to help people follow the crux of the message: Worship Allah alone and do not associate partners (Shituff)to it .

@yoel Yes. They used to count from more local occurances. "In the third year of Shlomo's reign..." "In the 39th year since the Exodus..."

@Ali so islam says that every now and then, a prophet has to come to adjust G-d's laws?

Why didn't He just make a perfect system the first time around?

9:13 PM

@yoel No thats a misconception , Quran infact says people hide the torah and there is a hadith for that too

@Ali meaning that it is deliberately altered or concealed?

@Ali How is that different from what @yoel said?

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel no, we do not believe that, we believe He came to complete things

@AlUmmatمجاهد That means it was incomplete.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel no

9:15 PM

@AlUmmatمجاهد Again, why not just make a complete system the first time?

Quran accuses the rabbis of hiding the verses of torah\suppressing the meanings\ interpreting the torah and including the interpretation of torah as part and parcel of torah. Torah is different

IAE No one here should feel a need to discuss this matter if they don't want to.

its interpretation is different

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DoubleAA nope, to fix something means it was broken, the Prophet came with a religion that was simple, for all times and places

@Ali Suddenly your questions make a lot more sense - you believe we are hiding secret knowledge from ancient times that proves the truth of your belief system.

9:16 PM

@AlUmmatمجاهد Either it was identical to the previous religion or it was not.

If it was not, then it must have made some change.

That change was either beneficial or not beneficial.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DoubleAA A prophet does not come except if God sends them, so it is not the Prophet that changes it is God, and He is all wise

@AlUmmatمجاهد why not just institute a simple religion for all times and places from the get go?

Al Ummat مجاهد

and has the right'

@AlUmmatمجاهد He does have the right. As long as we're agreeing that the religion was changed.

We can argue if that was a good change or a bad change.

But you can't say it's the same religion.

@AlUmmatمجاهد if G-d wanted to change His system, that implies that His previous system was in need of changing. Why would an all-knowing G-d need to change His system?

9:18 PM

@yoel Because the times demanded it.

Bukhari (Vol.8. Hadith No. 809): “Narrated Ibn Umar (RA): A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah’s Apostle (S) on a charge of committing illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them: ‘What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?’

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel because before The Prophet, we believe God sent messengers to certain people to warn and guide them, but they were not able to carry it to the whole world, but In muhammads time the ability to carry the message to the whole world was there

They replied: ‘Our priests have innovated the blackening of faces with charcoal and Tajbiya’ (being mounted on a donkey, with their faces in opposite directions, then mortified in public). Abdullah bin Salaam said: ‘0 Allah’s Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah.’

The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajm (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salaam said to the Jew: ‘Lift up your hand.’ The Divine Verse of the Rajm was under his hand. So Allah’s Apostle (S) ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned.”

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DoubleAA I never said such, and Islam is not a realigion it is a way of life, but what Islam is is the same message

@Ali if I come to islam.se feel free to bring quotes from the quran. Here, I could not possibly care less about what it has to say.

9:20 PM

@AlUmmatمجاهد You said: A prophet does not come except if God sends them, so it is not the Prophet that changes it is God, and He is all wise.

ie: it is God [that changes].

Hence it was changed by God.

@AlUmmatمجاهد Again, why? What's the point? And this proves what I'm saying, anyway: Judaism claims to have never changed. Islam is, by your own definition, a change, because in previous times it was impossible to present it in that way.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel Because the previous systems where to certain people, what Muhammad came with was to all, if you see the miracles of Jesus or Issa His miracles were for HIs time and HIs people, that is why today people can duplicate His miracles, but the miracles Muhammad did no one even today can duplicate, and the greatest miracle we believe is the Quran

@yoel this shows that torah was not rejected !

infact prophet muhammad pbuh caused the jews to follow the torah

@Ali I see, I thought you were making a different point.

Abdullah bin salam was a Rabbi who embraced Islam

Al Ummat مجاهد

9:23 PM

@DoubleAA The message was never changed, the message was "worship me(God)n alone and do not associate with me anyone/anything"

@Ali R"L even Jews are not immune to apostasy.

@AlUmmatمجاهد But the system was changed, yes?

@AlUmmatمجاهد I thought the message was: do all these things that I'm telling you.

Including certain beleifs, certain types of worship, certain types of permissable food. etc.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DoubleAA that comes with worshiping God

but that was not the direct message

@AlUmmatمجاهد How was it not direct? The verse says: do X.

@yoel i explained the hadith i quoted

Al Ummat مجاهد

9:26 PM

@DoubleAA following a system does not matter if you don't believe in one God, if you don't believe why follow?

6 mins ago, by Ali

The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajm (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salaam said to the Jew: ‘Lift up your hand.’ The Divine Verse of the Rajm was under his hand. So Allah’s Apostle (S) ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned.”

Quran also commands stoning for adulterator , We actually prctice the commands of God and also make others to do so

@Ali I know - I'm saying that calling muhammed a prophet is heretical to Judaism.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel We believe that we were all once one people, followed God, but God then sent Prophets to guide us back. Do you recall above you said we have free will?

@AlUmmatمجاهد what you are saying is a very complex topic in Judaism.

Generally speaking, prophets are for Jews.

Non-Jews only need to follow the laws given to Adam and Noach.

They don't usually need prophets at all, barring occasional rare local occurences

Al Ummat مجاهد

ok, interesting

9:30 PM

On an esoteric level, while we were once all one people, this capacity was irrevocably lost by the sins committed by Adam.

The role of Jews now is to repair this spiritual damage and shattering of our singular peoplehood.

@AlUmmatمجاهد We actually have a dictum, MiToch SheLo Lishmah Bah Lishmah, which means, if one does the proper thing for the wrong reason, he will eventually do it for the right reason.

Eventually, this will have the result of bringing on the Messianic era, at which point, yes, all peoples will be united under G-d and Torah.

@AlUmmatمجاهد In other words, there is inherent value in the act itself.

@AlUmmatمجاهد Believing in God is a necessary precondition for the rest, but it doesn't end there. All of torah is binding, not just belief in God.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel original sin?

9:32 PM

@AlUmmatمجاهد I listed beleif among the required things.

@AlUmmatمجاهد No, definitely not. We reject that ideology, at least as far as its xian connotations are concerned.

There were certainly sins committed by Adam that had long lasting repercussions on the very fabric of the universe, but we reject the idea that humans are born sinful.

@AlUmmatمجاهد We don't do original sin. The Christian notion of that is that all people are "tainted" because of eating from the tree. Eating from the tree led to expulsion, but it doesn't make you or me sinful.

@yoel I would have started the conversation with Bavel, not Adam, but ok.

@SethJ the need for Jews is based on Adam and Chava's sins, though...

I have to drop out. Anyone can feel free to continue chatting or drop out without prejudice to his position. This is only semi on topic here anyway.

9:34 PM

we also dont believe in the pagan doctrine of original sin

FTR This discussion is about how Islam perceives Jusaism, not about Judaism. Traditional Judaism beleives Muhammed to be a false prophet and his sayings to be of little to no worth.

I don't mean that to be harsh, just clear.

it was actually inspired from pagan sources in council of nincea

@Ali traditionally, I think Judaism assumed that xianity was basically derived entirely from pagan sources, and only later given a veneer of connection to our Torah.

This seems to hold up from a historical perspective, too.

Al Ummat مجاهد

ok, it is kind of hard to keep up with all of you

@MonicaCellio ok

I thought so

Islam believes Jesus to be a true prophet of God who came to make things easy for the Jews who had become too ritualistic without any love of God and he emphasized people to follow the torah

but was corrrupted by the pagan roman empire by wholesale hijacking of the message

Al Ummat مجاهد

9:38 PM

@SethJ interesting

@yoel does Judaism believe Adam was forgiven?

@Ali and just to clarify, Judaism believes him to be a false prophet and a sinner of the worst order, intent on leading Jews away from Judaism. We reject the notion that we have ever lacked proper love of G-d despite our Torah mandating many rituals.

@AlUmmatمجاهد it's complicated. :) Short answer yes, but there were more problems later.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel ok, I see

@yoel God was certainly not happy with jews and he gave the divorce certificate too

Jews did sin a lot

to the extent of committing Idol worship

one of the reasons was the rabbis who had made things very tuff for poor (not in sense of money)jews to follow

Jesus was sent to loosen the grip of the Rabbis

@Ali I was with you until here - you have no proof of this, and in fact the rabbis never implemented something if it was too difficult for people to follow. Even Ezra the prophet tried to implement a law, saw that it was too hard, and rescinded it.

@Ali sure - by the Satan, maybe.

There are many evidences for the fact that Rabbis had become self centered and made religion a business

They made the lawful as unlawful

unlawful as lawful

9:46 PM

@Ali I am very sure that the Satan would hope to present that view, for the sake of confusing people.

To be very clear, if you are against the rabbis, you are against G-d, and a servant of the side of evil.

@Ali Yeah, we don't believe in that. At all.

@Ali We believe the "follow G-d with love message" was designed to gloss over the heresy inherent in heresy of the rest of the message, which was to reject the traditions and teachings of the rabbis.

and we are not against all Rabbis

@MonicaCellio, pass the popcorn.

there were some dominant ones who i feel played mischief

@Ali Can you name them? Were you there? What did they do to you? Did you report them to their colleagues and/or superiors?

9:52 PM

Quran infact praises suh rabbis

@SethJ I'm half-monitoring this (I do have to get actual work done).

I meant jesus pbuh and Muhammad pbuh

@Ali you mean that these were the mischief players, who tried to alter the Torah and reject G-d?

at their time

Cool, we agree on something.

9:54 PM

i meant that at the time of jesus pbuh and Muhammad pbuh there were some dominant rabbis who were not sincere

oh

like some of the pharisees and saducceess

Uh...

anyways there is a proven trak record of people rejecting the prophets

and unfortunately the rejection comes from people who think that they know "too much"

@Ali bottom line - if a prophet tries to change one bit of the Torah, they are a false prophet. Both your examples fall in to this category.

9:57 PM

their ego does not allow them to accept the truth

Jesus nor muhammad pbuh changed anything of torah

but i have strong evidences of rabbbis doing so

@Ali that's true - the Torah cannot be changed. They tried, though, and created heretical new belief systems in the process.

@Ali okay, let's hear one.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel so that would mean there is one true system

am I right?

@AlUmmatمجاهد definitely.

The Torah.

Al Ummat مجاهد

then why is there such a thing as Modern Judaism

@AlUmmatمجاهد We are an exclusive group, not in a patronizing way, but in an obligated way. We do not believe everyone needs to follow the laws of the Torah, only that Jews must. There is one true system for us to serve G-d. It is not for you to follow unless you join us.

@AlUmmatمجاهد There is an idea that there are 70 faces to the Torah. Meaning (among other things) that there are lots of ways to serve G-d within the system.

@AlUmmatمجاهد There are also modern heretics.

@AlUmmatمجاهد So I'm not sure which you mean.

Oh! I just noticed the time. I need to head out.

Al Ummat مجاهد

10:02 PM

@SethJ ok

@AlUmmatمجاهد what kind of modern Judaism do you mean?

@yoel the rabbis violated the first commandment they actually took their rabbis as lords simply by the fact that they obeyed the rabbis in favor of obeying God. This applies to Jews of today.

One example of many is the Talmud and its ruling on interest/usury. The Talmud (a collection of the sayings of numerous rabbis) asserts that it is permissible for a Jew to charge a non-Jew interest on loans...though this is explicitly forbidden in Biblical Law. For the Talmudic reference see Sanhedrin 57a.

@Ali Biblical law does not prohibit usury on non-Jews.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel I don't know, I hear things like orthodox judaism

is that modern judaism?

@AlUmmatمجاهد orthodox Judaism is a modern term to differentiate Judaism as it has always been practiced from modern movements which are definitely heretical from an "orthodox" point of view.

10:07 PM

1

Q: Why usury or interest on loan is illegal within Jews and legal for non-Jews

Possible Duplicate: Are we allowed to charge interest or not? Any action or deed which is not considered ethical for ourselves, should also apply on others as well. Also throughout the known history of Jews, ribbis has always been linked with them. If we look at the character of Shyloc...

gentiles am-yisrael-jewish-nation mussar-ethics lending-interest-ribbis middos-character-traits

During the European Enlightenment, many Jews were excited by their newfound freedoms and sought to throw off the yoke of the Torah and assimilate.

8 He does not lend at usury or take excessive interest. He withholds his hand from doing wrong and judges fairly between man and man.
9 He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live, declares the Sovereign LORD. (Ezekiel 18:5-9)

@Ali 20 You may charge a foreigner interest, but not a fellow Israelite, so that the Lord your God may bless you in everything you put your hand to in the land you are entering to possess. (Deuteronomy 23:20)

2

@Ali please bring your next example of how rabbis "changed" the Torah. :)

Al Ummat مجاهد

@yoel ok I see

10:14 PM

It is not still clear yet coz Ezekiel gives a general rule

@Ali A prophet will never contradict the Torah, so it can only be understood in the same context. Yechezkel was a Jew speaking to Jews about Jews.

The Torah says explicitly that one may charge a non-Jew interest.

You are wrong again

use the words of torah

torah does not even speak of "jews" but isralites

@Ali Same thing.

But you knew that.

tell me is killing allowed?

is stealing allowed?

Murder is not allowed.

@Ali it is very unbecoming to grow hostile in the face of being proven wrong.

10:26 PM

Torah has commands to kill the pagan cannanites

@Ali That is inappropriate.

@Ali Right, kill. Not murder.

Please pay attention.

God permitted usury to destroy the Canaanites!!

as a weapon to kill

them

destoy them

@Ali I thought muslims weren't allowed to get intoxicated, but I can't find any other reasonable explanation for what you're saying here.

@Ali, you are using "kill" as if it is the same as "murder". It is not. The torah forbids murder. The Christians who translated it "thou shalt not kill" got it wrong; killing, e.g. in war and in capital cases, is not the same thing.

And now I have to get going. Later all.

Al Ummat مجاهد

10:28 PM

and the same is in the Quran

@Ali

Usury was economic warfare to pauperize and destroy their economy, so that they could not afford to wage war against the Israelites

"Who were these "foreigners", and why was Israel permitted to exact usury from them if usury was unlawful? It was understood from ancient times that this permission related specifically to the conquest of the promised land. Usury was part of the violence that Israel inflicted upon the wicked people whom God was driving out before them. God had told Israel that the conquest would encompass a length of time.

Exodus 23:29-30, "I will not drive them out before you in a single year, that the land may not become desolate, and the beasts of the field become too numerous for you.

I will drive them out before you little by little, until you become fruitful and take possession of the land." The oppression of usury was an effective means of keeping the Canaanites under check until they had been totally conquered. In this case, usury was an instrument of God's judgment upon a wicked people "(Mooney, Usury: Destroyer of Nations).

I don't have the time or patience to read through all of today's chat, but I hereby request (speaking for myself) that domination of this room by interfaith debate about the legitimacy of Judaism not continue past today. Now might even not be too soon to spin this discussion off into a dedicated room. Merry Time Zone.

@IsaacMoses you're right - sorry for having contributed to the debacle.

and you tell me dont you have banks in israel who charge interests

?

@ali Do you even listen to yourself?

11:02 PM

Please refrain from posting for 2 minutes. I'll move all this into a separate room momentarily.

← 310 messages moved from V'dibarta Bam

ALL: I have moved the relevant discussion to this room. If I missed a post here or moved a post I shouldn't have please ping me.

11:21 PM

@yoel and ultra othodox Judaism is a term used to differentiate Judaism as it has always been practiced from a modern movement which became super rigid in response to the super lax reforming movements.

Al Ummat مجاهد

so many names

@DoubleAA Ooh; fun! Can we debate Zionism next in this room?

@IsaacMoses If you want. It's not clogging the main room, so I guess anything goes.

@DoubleAA (I was being sarcastic.)

@IsaacMoses You don't have to participate.

11:26 PM

@DoubleAA I don't intend to, and I'm not casting aspersions on any who do. I just think that it's funny that a room with this one's name and main topic could also get into intra-Judaism, inter-sect semantic debate

@IsaacMoses I don't particularly like semantic debates. I do like calling people out on them though.

i don't know how much of this argument i would actually call "Islam's view of Judaism". there's a lot more conjecture than actual information here.. :/

Islam doesn't put a lot of stock into conjecture.

@goldPseudo Don't worry; as I said above, I haven't time or patience to read the logs, and if I did, I'd take conjectures expressed therein with plenty of grains of salt.

@IsaacMoses oh, you'd be taking enough grains of salt in here to give you a coronary.

@goldPseudo If I wanted to know Islam's view on Judaism or anything else, rambling chat logs would be the last place I'd look, unlike, e.g., well-written, sourced, community-approved answers on Islam.

11:35 PM

@DoubleAA I don't really think there's any serious difference between any orthodox Jews in terms of practice. To be honest, "ultra orthodox" is a slur that only makes sense from the point of view of non-orthodoxy to begin with.

@goldPseudo I'm open to better suggestions for the title. It's just the first thing that popped into my head.

meh. i'm not invested enough to care. just making observations :)

@yoel In terms of the 'dox' not really, but in terms of practice, you get things like judaism.stackexchange.com/q/22306/759

@DoubleAA one could just as easily ask why Ashkenazim ("ultra" or not) don't eat rice on Pesach. It's cultural, not theological.

@yoel I'm not asking. I'm telling that people used to change their clothes based on the country and then some stopped.

If anyone before had stopped changing clothes, they'd be in Europe wearing Jelabiyas.

11:43 PM

@DoubleAA actually I have a pet theory that Ashkenazi clothing is exactly the same as Mizrachi clothing, just warmer.

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