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00:00 - 19:0019:00 - 21:00

7:00 PM
@Mysticial Don't worry about it.
I think Krazer's question could be made an "answer" to your post.
@Dimitrimx If you can find open Yahoo questions about anime, that's a good way to do it. They'll usually generate a few clicks through to the source. It's better if we already have the answer here, but if not, we can use that as a way to generate more seeding questions as well.
@LoganM They sometimes have open posts like "Were can i find good answers to anime related questions". Should keep an eye out for those.
@Dimitrimx Those are gold
They appear first on Google, and a link back to us there is priceless
@MadaraUchiha They appear pretty often, if we can get some people to watch out on those site's for those kinda questions it could be a gold mine.
7:03 PM
There's also wiki.answers.com
But I think Yahoo will benefit us more
OK so let's wrap it up
@MadaraUchiha a meta post for nominations of FB and G+ pages will be made
We have agreed that we should nominate managers for our unofficial pages on Facebook and Google+, a meta post will be issued.
We also need to keep an eye out for Yahoo questions which can be linked back to us.
Have I missed anything?
pretty much it i believe
@MadaraUchiha the content of the pages will be debated when we have chosen managers?
7:06 PM
I think that's it. Once we have the managers picked we'll have more to discuss.
@JNat Yes
@MadaraUchiha ok, then I think there's nothing missing
Okay, bookmark made.
Next topic? Copyright?
@MadaraUchiha yeah
@MadaraUchiha yes
7:08 PM
Okay then, @Mysticial, begin
At one extreme, we can ban all mention of fan-subs. At the other extreme, we allow everything.
Obviously neither is gonna work too well.
Although I mentioned it before I restate my position here:
As long as a reference to a fansub group is posted with no intention to violate copyright, it should be allowed.
@Mysticial First describe the problem please, for those of us who aren't well versed :P
@MadaraUchiha Where's that example we had from before?
7:11 PM
@Mysticial you meant without, right?
@JNat fixed
My position: Linking to (or embedding) fan subs or scanlations should not be allowed, but as you said, benign mention of them should be fine. "____ fansub said this, but ...?"
@Eric That was initially my position as well, but it also rules out references to fansub forums.
So mistake's made in the fansubs should be able to get questiond here ?
@Mysticial What would be the purpose of such a reference?
7:13 PM
The law thinks differently though
@Dimitrimx Under my position, that would be allowed.
@Eric I agree with you
@MadaraUchiha Obviously whatever the law says, that overrules what we decide here.
The intention doesn't matter, it either violates copyright, or not.
@Mysticial But wouldnt a reffal link to the fansub be needed for full support of the issue then ?
7:13 PM
So does it violate copyright to link to a site that does?
Google does it.
@Mysticial Here's an example where I linked to a post on animesuki (which is a very questionable site in terms of copyright), and the post is by a fansubber, but the post itself isn't violating anything:
@MadaraUchiha providing a link may violate, but refering the site I think not, right?
A: What's written in Ayatsuji Tsukasa's notebook?

Logan MThere is no mention of the exact contents of the notebook in the original VN or the anime. There are a couple of short sequel games which I have not gone through, so in principle there could be some explanation there, but given how important this is I doubt they'd want to relegate it to a side-ga...

My position is this.
If it contributes to the question/answer in question, it's fine.
@MadaraUchiha Embedding a scanlation might contribute to the answer or question, but definitely should not be allowed.
7:15 PM
@MadaraUchiha Unless of course the question is: "Where do I illegally download fansub Anime?"
That alone won't be enough. But otherwise, I'm with you.
@MadaraUchiha embedding too?
I think we need a more official opinion on this
Maybe refer to it whitout actually showing the source ?
@Dimitrimx with that I agree
Would make for questionable answers though.
7:15 PM
Can we ping a community mod in here?
@Eric I think embedding a scanalation can qualify as fair use if we restrict appropriately.
@Mysticial I've invited one
@LoganM Only in the USA, though. Aren't we also bound by copyright law in the country of origin?
@Eric Obviously some countries are gonna be more dickish about copyright laws than even the US. So it's gonna hard to satisfy everybody.
@mysticial Easyer said its impossible.
7:18 PM
@Eric I don't think so. AFAIK we need to follow US law, but other countries we don't need to worry about. Admittedly that's just from what I could glean off of Wikipedia's anime articles.
SE has DMCA safe harbor
@Eric here's the short for the DCMA: if you are a foreign copyright holder and think you might ever want to sue in the United States for infringement, you should register your works with the USCO and keep those registrations up to date
@Mysticial We don't need to satisfy everyone.
so, you can, but don't
We only need to satisfy the country which hosts the SE servers.
7:19 PM
@Krazer So anything international but under the USCO can be considered under Fair Use? (If it would fall under there otherwise.)
Copyright stuff uploaded on SE only needs to be removed if they submit a DMCA takedown request
Hey @AnnaLear, thanks for your time
Q: Remove the " characters," "character-abilities," "variations," and "plot-explanation" tags

KrazerAs per discussion in chat, we feel that meta tags are affecting SEO traffic to the site. Our reasoning is that since SE automatically appends tags to the title, if none of the tags are already in the title, it will take the most popular tag and add it to the title. This is great if there's only...

Q: What is the status of meta tags?

MysticialAs part of the 4th chat discussion, we covered the status of meta tags. Examples of meta tags are: characters character-abilities variations plot-explanation The questions we discussed are: Do we need them? Do they contribute anything? If not, should we just eliminate them. (and blacklist ...

Buuut, again, better not to go there in the first place :)
@MadaraUchiha No problem. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and I don't even pretend to play one on TV.
7:20 PM
I Think we should stick to allowing whitout refference
@AnnaLear Basically, we're talking about what is considered legal or illegal to have in questions/answers
Do we allow embedded scanlations? YouTube videos of episodes or parts of episodes?
How about we find out what the US Copyright Law allows for, from the SE team or mods for example?
@MadaraUchiha especially regarding linking to clearly violating sites
@AnnaLear So the question are we allowed to link to sites that violate copyright. For example, an answer references a fansub forum. But the fansub group facilitates illegal content distribution.
@Deidara-senpai SE team is here already. @AnnaLear is one :)
7:21 PM
(Quick introduction for those who don't know me: I'm a community manager at Stack Exchange. Hi. :))
She's also a cat
@Manishearth Right, but they don't seem to know the Law too well.
@AnnaLear Hello :) pleased to meet you!
or so they claimed.
@AnnaLear Nice to meet you :D
7:22 PM
Let's keep chit-chat to a minimum please. Remember this conversation is bookmarked.
FWIW here's an example where I included scanalations in my post. IMO it helped, but the amount might be excessive.
A: What's the significance of Kanon becoming "invisible"?

Logan Mlooper's answer is correct but not quite complete. This answer will be based on the manga, mostly because I don't immediately have access to the anime, but also because I'm not sure how much of this is explained in the anime. Kanon's arc is flags (aka chapters) 7-10 in the manga. As the other an...

Our usual policy is that moderators are not lawyers and are not responsible for enforcing any laws. This includes copyright.
I personally think it's fine as long as the fansub/scanlation isn't the subject of the question or answer, if ppl do cite them as sources they should be tertiary at best
What happens if the scanlations are hosted in some other country where it does not violate any copyright?
@AnnaLear So basically... We don't care until a threatening email arrives at community@se?
7:23 PM
We provide instructions for reporting copyright violations directly to us at the end of the Terms of Service. This allows the copyright holder to reach us if they want to dispute anything.
@AnnaLear so this discussion is moot?
@Deidara-senpai They can't do a thing. The worst case is that they block anime.SE Then it boils down to risk evaluation. Allow content and risk loss of ad revenue from getting blocked?
@JNat More or less.
@AnnaLear I think that answers it pretty much completely. We should allow these things as long as it's relevant. If it's irrelevant we shouldn't allow it anyway.
such a easy answer.
7:24 PM
So far as your site policy goes, you should decide what you all are comfortable with. Some sites, for example, explicitly disallow questions about hacks or pirated software.
If there is a problem with some type of content that is regularly posted here, we'll come talk to you about it and adjust the site's policy at that point.
@AnnaLear Likewise, we already have a defacto policy of disallowing questions about where to illegally obtain copyrighted Anime.
We should do that as well. Question asking for "Where do I watch X online" or "Where do I read Y online" shouldn't be allowed.
I think that's a good policy to have. Like Krazer said, as long as it's not the subject (like: "Where do I find scanlations of _____ manga?"), it should be permitted or at least considered.
Okay then, this settles it.
@MadaraUchiha Those kinda fail the "list question" rules as well.
7:26 PM
We will allow embedding content in a post as long as it helps answering the question.
... or asking the question for that matter.
A line will be added to the FAQ (in the "don't ask this" section) regarding questions asking for illegal material or where to find it.
@MadaraUchiha sounds good
Far as embedding clips of Youtube videos goes... youtube will probably be way more on the ball than anyone else about shutting down anything that violates copyright. :) With that in mind, I suggest discouraging answers that are nothing but a Youtube link.
@AnnaLear Link only questions are discouraged anyway
7:28 PM
@AnnaLear I agree on both points. They should definitely be a last resort as somewhat-copyright-issue-ish stuff is often removed. More content-based answers are always better.
@MadaraUchiha That they are. But when folks link to a video, they usually don't feel like summarizing it because it's all visual.
@AnnaLear Alright, noted.
I'd like to thank @AnnaLear for her time (she is, of course, welcome to stay), and for helping us resolve the issue.
While we're on the topic of copyright, I think we should also discuss our community ads. Some of them apparently are from copyrighted sources and we should make sure the ones we use are legally allowed.
@MadaraUchiha Any time :)
@LoganM Isn't that just fair use?
7:29 PM
@LoganM I think the same policy applies.
@LoganM you can argue on the policy of fair use
actually you can't
you're not advertising their product, are you?
I think we can't argue fair use in that case.
@Mysticial I think it is, because we do not have any intention of making money, or providing the full material evading the costs for obtaining it
@Manishearth this varies greatly based on the ip holder
@Krazer true
7:30 PM
"To justify the use as fair, one must demonstrate how it either advances knowledge or the progress of the arts through the addition of something new."
The way I understand the Copyright Law, if you take someone's stuff and make something new, then you get to keep the Copyright for the thing you created.
This post on meta.scifi explains when we can argue fair use:
A: Youtube usage policy

PearsonArtPhotoUS Law states the following about Fair Use: Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors...

@Manishearth but we are not using their 'product' to make money for our own
But I am no lawyer. :)
@JNat ah, you're advertising anime.se . Not fair use
7:31 PM
@Manishearth even though we have no intention of making profit?
However, the Stack Exchange policy applies
Time for one of us to apply for law school so we can figure this out :P
@JNat Buuut, SE does make money off anime.se (though in a roundabout way and effectively 0 at the moment)
If the copyright holders wish for the advertisement to be taken off, they can contact the Stack Exchange team, and it will be.
And IIRC fair use has nothing to do with monetization
7:31 PM
@Manishearth hmm, I see
> the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:
Anyone's got a friend who is anime fan, and also a lawyer in US? ;)
@Deidara-senpai They don't exist. :)
@Deidara-senpai got one who's studying laws ;)
#1) We are using their copyrighted material to advertise for our site, which fails completely.
#2) Copyrighted material is basically for-profit artwork. We fail this one too.
#3) We aren't using very much, so we're okay here.
#4) No significant effect.
7:33 PM
@Manishearth it depends, but there are exceptions
Don't forget that none of you guys are representatives of Stack Exchange Inc.
@Deidara-senpai I have a friend who is in law school studying to be an IP lawyer at Georgetown University. I can ask him if we need to.
@AnnaLear That. I was going to make that point.
@AnnaLear yep, which means we can do whatever we want without consequences :D
7:34 PM
I'm heading off guys. Good luck with the rest of the meeting. I'll catch up on all the decisions when I get back tonight/tomorrow.
But, again, if stuff can be avoided, it should be
@LoganM Give it a try, that's nice to know. At the least we would have one more member on the site.
@LoganM I don't think we need to ATM
@AnnaLear so we could interpret that as being ads for the community, and not for the site, or something like that? meaning that the intention is not to make money, but rather to draw attention
Lawyers never work for free. :P
7:35 PM
@Deidara-senpai cept law interns
@Deidara-senpai We'll answer his questions here
If there is a legal problem, it will be brought to us. Then we'll handle it if it needs handling and pass the results on down to you if necessary. So, my advice would be to avoid doing something obviously boneheaded, but otherwise don't overthink it. :)
@Deidara-senpai He isn't really an anime fan any more. Maybe 6 years ago he would have been interested in the site but probably not anymore.
@LoganM Oh well, then maybe just have him on standby, and we could consult him if something comes up.
@Deidara-senpai you gonna pay his retainer fee? :P
7:36 PM
Do we have another topic for today?
@MadaraUchiha I don't think so.
@MadaraUchiha I think not
So to summarize: As far as copyright goes, do whatever you want within reason.
That's the message I got.
@Mysticial so the ads stay
7:37 PM
@JNat Yeah, pretty much.
@Deidara-senpai I think the point is that we shouldn't worry about these things at all. SE has lawyers and they comply with the relevant laws, so in the worst case we'll have some content removed. We should just focus on anime Q&A.
This sums up our #4 chat cast
I'll issue a meta-post about it
I'd like each decision to be placed in a seperate answer, so that they can be commented on and voted independantly
@MadaraUchiha you guys have chat casts? YOU STOLE THE IDEA FROM TL. Prepare to be sued.
@MadaraUchiha including the one about FB/G+ manager nominations?
@Manishearth Actually, it started off as Brain Storming sessions
And then I saw the term chat cast on TL :D
So sue me
7:39 PM
@Manishearth borrowed ;)
@JNat Yes, that will be a different post.
@MadaraUchiha So he'll sue us for the name. Not the concept. Excellent. :)
@MadaraUchiha yes, but what I meant was, will you do it too?
@MadaraUchiha See chat message #7263437. There was a reason for that. TL is dangerous when it wants to be :O
Can someone clean up the meta tags question so there's less redundancy between Krazer's question and my answer?
7:41 PM
I'll remove mine
@Mysticial I'll be posting a general one now, and move the answer there.
@MadaraUchiha ok
@Krazer Don't delete it yet, I want to merge.
@MadaraUchiha Ok
@MadaraUchiha And then nuke the stubs so there's less clutter.
7:43 PM
@Mysticial Yes
Hmm... Didn't Robert tell us to separate these things a while back?
@Mysticial yes
So perhaps keep the questions, but link to them in a single summary.
@MadaraUchiha instead of having separate answers, we should have different questions
Otherwise, you can't search for "meta tags status".
7:47 PM
@JNat You think?
Let's keep it separated then.
Don't forget to link to the bookmarks in chat.
@MadaraUchiha yes, given mysticial's comment above
aww... you wiki'ed my answer. :( haha
wait you deleted my answer along with the question
@Mysticial he's going to separate them
the question he'd made before, I mean
@JNat I think it needs to be undeleted before he can unmerge.
oh whatever, I copied the source back.
Nuke the whole thing
I'll repost the answer where it needs to be.
unmerging isn't possible
I just copied the source of your answer and edited mine.
Q: What is the status of meta-tags?

Madara UchihaAs part of the 4th chat discussion, we covered the status of meta tags. Examples of meta tags are: characters character-abilities variations plot-explanation The questions we discussed are: Do we need them? Do they contribute anything? If not, should we just eliminate them. (and blacklist ...

7:51 PM
@MadaraUchiha I've seen Shog do it. So that's probably just a community mod power.
Q: What is the status of meta-tags?

Madara UchihaAs part of the 4th chat discussion, we covered the status of meta tags. Examples of meta tags are: characters character-abilities variations plot-explanation The questions we discussed are: Do we need them? Do they contribute anything? If not, should we just eliminate them. (and blacklist ...

@HellButterfly lol someone needs to tweak this thing.
@LoganM A community mod probably used their rewind magic :P
@LoganM It's currently set to display all meta-posts
It's listening to the feed on Anime and Manga Meta
@MadaraUchiha Is it possible to have it only display the ones that haven't already been posted here by a user?
7:59 PM
@LoganM The logic isn't that flexible.
@LoganM 'fraid not, the feed doesn't care whether it's posted anywhere else or not.
Okay then we can just keep it as-is. It's usually fairly helpful.
@Mysticial, care to open the questions regarding the Facebook and Google+ page manager nomination?
One question each
@MadaraUchiha me?
(or @Krazer or @JNat or @LoganM), I just need to go
8:03 PM
I wasn't even part of that since I don't use G+ and rarely ever use Facebook.
@MadaraUchiha I'm on it
@Mysticial leave it to me
I'll do the copyright one.
Great, feature them both
@Mysticial I've made the question, answer it
8:28 PM
Q: How do we deal with copyrighted material on our site?

Madara UchihaWhat do we do about questions or answers which contain questionably copyrighted material? This includes: Embedded scanlation images YouTube links to episodes or parts of them Links to fansub groups

Q: How do we expand on the social plane?

Madara UchihaWe've set our Google+ and Facebook pages up, but a new problem arises, what do we put there? How do we handle these pages in a way that will attract people and will make them aware of our existence?

Q: Facebook Page Content Manager Nominations

JNatIn our 4th chat session, we have decided to choose a manager for our Facebook account. This person should have enough free time to maintain our page there, and be well familiarized with the interface of the site. He/she should also be well-versed in a lot of anime and manga, allowing him/her t...

Q: Google+ Page Content Manager Nominations

JNatIn our 4th chat session, we have decided to choose a manager for our Google+ page. This person should have enough free time to maintain our page there, and be well familiarized with the interface of the site. He/she should also be well-versed in a lot of anime and manga, allowing him/her to po...

well, I'm off
see y'all tomorrow
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