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12:41 AM
@WorldEngineer - thanks! I tried really hard to keep that one on an even keel.
3:36 AM
4:18 AM
Afternoon :)
4:32 AM
Hey deco
Work, work
I am transitioning next week to a new position
And so I need to get done
30 hours in two days so far
Along with 23 holes of golf
urgh golf..
lots of people enjoy it, I do not
It is my zen-activity
If that makes sense
My quest for the unattainable that is worthwile in and of itself without attaining it.
Mine is pretending I have programming proficiency :P
1 hour later…
5:42 AM
@Deco hahahahaahaha
@deco I dont even pretend dude, I am what I am
4 hours later…
9:30 AM
Whilst doing research I was locked out of one of my school's databases for being an automated process...
Did I just fail the Turing Test?
10:59 AM
Oh my.
2 hours later…
1:27 PM
I'd like to know if my question would be on topic here at programmers.stack.... The Q is, what is the better design, design A or design B
@DaveRook Provided you give some kind of context for "better", most likely.
hmmmm. what a good answer.
Thank you
"Better" is rather subjective. Are you going for testability? Extensibility? Something else entirely? You'll also have to define your problem so there's some kind of context.
This is perfect, thank you. I will ask away! :)
@MichaelT Vance's article won't go into "wall of text" because of friggin' post length limit. My original summary was ~1400 chars, now it's about 220 and edit still doesn't save; I tried to condense it further but this results in useless link-only crap.
Torture of trying to fit it in reminded me that back then, I had to drop a couple other references and quotes to cut to allowed size, so it's not only Vance that is missing there (it could very well be that Vance was among these "dropped", I felt deja-vu when reading through it this time). Oh well.
2:30 PM
@gnat Are there any optimizations that you can do on your text (if you wanted challenge the system to put it in)... such as removing runs of whitespace?
2:48 PM
Hmm... maybe I could ask the question "Gnat, do you have any other bits that wouldn't fit into your first answer" where you could then expand and and get that linked... or, you could make it into one giant image and have that linked...
@MichaelT yeah I actually test-dropped a few chars that looked like safe to remove. so actual saving was even tighter, to 220 chars at addition and - about 100 chars at deletion, I seem to be about 50-100 chars close to the limit...
I recall a talk by Jeffry Fridel on the stuff that he did in the early days of Yahoo Finance on the stuff he did to try to save bytes on the outbound messages.
...when re-checking the text I found that I likely have condensed it a lot before to the max I felt tolerable to keep
image is a good idea
need to ponder it a bit
I still keep drafts of all four intemediate summary revisions I made for planned addition
(first two were really improvements actually0
it's 3rd and 4th when things became degrading because of info loss :(
preview of addition -> screen shot -> image, this might work :)
I'm not saying its a good idea... just a way of getting around the character size list of a post.
sure, that's why I didn't fall at it immediately. Need to count +/- of this. But the idea per se is cool
Oh! no there is better way
better = quoteable text, no scent of abuse
3:02 PM
Too bad SE doesn't let you inline an entire pdf...
how could I forget, I used this trick already :) "blown up" comments should do the trick, I'd only add a link to the answer...
Q: How can I update a large legacy codebase to meet specific quality standards?

mikelongThere is a lot of information about tools and techniques for improving legacy codebases, but I haven't come across any successful real world case studies. Most advice is on the micro level, and while helpful, doesn't convince many people because of a lack of evidence it can help at the macro lev...

This question has been significantly edited, and needs 1 more reopen vote
@Rachel what this question really needs is rollback of slippery rev 5 before reopening (I voted reopen so it's more of a minor nitpicking, rev 5 doesn't look a big deal really:)
@mikelong rev 5 "Focus the text on the case study or evidence" is quite slippery, resource requests are not quite welcome at Programmers. As far as I understand, one would rather present an underlying problem instead - a problem that was intended to be solved with particular resource requested — gnat 15 mins ago
3:20 PM
that's... hilarious. How do I tell them stop damaging my brain with useless business lingo?
A: How can I tell people to get to the point?

KazYou need to forge a new mission statement which establishes brevity as a core value for your organization. Then hold meetings to find stakeholders who will buy in to the innovative paradigm. Be sure to mark down action items for everyone, and track them so that they follow through with their new ...

Bah stupid tab+Enter posting my edit before I'm finished
@gnat What about the most recent edit? I think the OP is looking specifically for answers backed up by a real-life example or case study, and not just some popular steps that in theory, should work
@gnat At 4 words, my brain started hurting. At 8 it gave up. Then I scanned further ahead and read "core value" and "hold meetings" and "paradigm" and it made an attempt to crawl out my ear and hide under the desk.
@Rachel I know of very few companies that write detailed histories of internal products that are available to the public. Most times its "this is what should not be done" and its kept internally (don't want their customers to know how badly they messed up). And when it is a success, they certainly don't share (letting their competitors know the right way to do things).
The consultants doing it (much of the time) find themselves NDA'ed to silence on the projects.
This is what you are more likely to get - brucefwebster.com/2008/06/16/anatomy-of-a-runaway-it-project
3:35 PM
Those that do trumpet their success do so only in the most glossy and abstract ways that are only suitable for snippits in "CIO This Week" in ways that are designed not to offend anyone who might have a heaping pile of steaming... legacy code still around their code base.
@Rachel what can I say? your edit was the first one in a long line that tripped my upvote. Really, really well done
3:51 PM
Q: How to refactor such code?

uptonThe project is full of such code and the function is really long and hard to understand.. How to refactor? int get_greate_structure(GreateStructure* st) { switch (st->type) { case 1: do_some_business_and_fill_part_of_the_st(); case 2: do_other_things_a...

There is a line in there that reads GreateStructure *st = AllocateGreateStructure();
I keep wanting to put a comment on that line that somehow references All your base.... "For Great Justice!"
A: How is Python used in the real world?

I Like PieI like pie. I like pie. I like pie. I like pie. I like pie.

This might need some serious content change to be salvageable, but likely is beyond hope.
@gnat Thanks :) It still needs 1 more reopen vote though
4:01 PM
@MichaelT Account destroyed. Does it count as "serious content change"?
@YannisRizos I suspect that would count.
My co-workers aren't buying my explanation of that the for( X ; Y ; Z) was changed to for (A : B) by smashing the two semi-colons together to make one colon.
4:23 PM
@MichaelT no wonder it's getting crappy answers; this is a blatant list-question, almost as described in tag wiki
too bad my close vote on it has expired
100 views from some reddit I guess did it
job-market tag already sends a strong signal
1 hour later…
5:40 PM
There we go... closevotes ahoy!
6:32 PM
What is the criteria for a close issue to show up in the close review queue?
@MichaelT Questions appear in the queue when they get their first close vote or off topic flag.
I officially love the either monad
everyone goes nuts over the maybe monad, but the either monad is way better
(though practically the same)
I officially declare that monads aren't real structures, they are an elaborate hoax FP aficionados designed to make the rest of us feel dumb.
If you really want to have fun with monads, read Leibniz.
6:43 PM
@YannisRizos it's simple, it goes like this: create a context with a thing in it (class bla<T>{ T thing}) and then don't let anybody access the thing in that context without using some function that returns another context with that thing in it, (T GetThing(){...}), now here's the fun part: that function which is the only way you let people access the thing, you get to change the thing before you give it back to them.
So everytime someone wants to do something with the thing, they have to execute your bit of code as a decoration around the code they were going to execute.
public class bla<T> { T thing; public bla<U> doSomethingToTheThing<T,U>(Func<T, bla<U>> thingToDoToTheThing) { // your decoration around executing their thingToDoToTheThing }
so as long as everyone calles doSomethingToTheThing when they want to do something to it, it executes your code decorating their code before executing there's (it might choose not to execute theres at all saying "no, you can't do that to the thing buzz off")
This is everything you should really need to know about monads. Nothing more.
@JimmyHoffa - so FP is really intended for control freaks? :-P
@YannisRizos aficionado.. oof, you make me sound fancy or something. I'm just some dingbat playing in a sandbox I don't understand
@GlenH7 Why do you think they're all so bonkers about "correctness" ??
Deleted 4 comments on Politics, and 10 minutes later there's a Meta post calling me out. This is why I love Programmers, you all never notice it when I delete stuff ;)
lol, like a ninja assassin in plain clothes because nobody's looking anyway
6:51 PM
@YannisRizos - not true; I've noticed when you've blown away some ... poor .... questions
And most of us would have agreed with the deletions anyway, so why complain about them?
@YannisRizos We just cheer you on.
@MichaelT lol :P
can't. wait. for. delete. votes. :-)
delete votes?
@GlenH7 to put your point about control freaks in perspective, the namespace for the monad functions is Control.Monad :)
(in haskell)
6:55 PM
@JimmyHoffa At 10K you can vote to delete closed questions, that have been closed for a couple of days or more. At 20K you can vote to delete closed questions immediately and negatively scored answers.
I just went through the questions that were open that I had downvoted that were not real questions (rather than poorly asked questions) (not many left) and helped the close votes along.
@YannisRizos when do I get to vote for that cleanup bot thing to just compose an insult comment on the Q?
@JimmyHoffa The what?
I've seen some cleanup bot on SO I think
in it's description it just says like "I am just a bot that pings questions that are old and does other automated tasks for SO" or something
Yeah, there needs to be a 15k you get to vote for community to post a poorly-composed database driven insult comment
"Your mothers hair is made of noun"
If you post this as a feature request, I'll upvote it.
@JimmyHoffa - don't we have enough trolls already doing the equivalent of that? why add more detritus? :-)
@GlenH7 at 15k you wouldn't be having it insult any question that wasn't about to be closed, unless it used big words like detrituse (wth?) or monad (those people have it coming)
@JimmyHoffa - that could be an interesting way to start some flame wars and bring down the site(s). Keying off of things like monad, lisp, emacs, vi, FP, etc... and then just have an assortment of insults ready to be hurled.
7:07 PM
Build a large set of insults, and toss Mark V Shaney at them?
7:33 PM
History question - who is / was user8? For example, here's an old post from mP.SE: meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/a/2272/53019
@GlenH7 If I'm not horribly mistaken, that would be Mark Trapp.
@YannisRizos - thanks, I've been wondering for a while. I had noticed the 'dead' account a number of times, usually along with some pretty decent answers.
7:54 PM
Best monad explanation ever...
> It thus appears that if we had in our perceptions nothing marked and, so to speak, striking and highly-flavoured, we should always be in a state of stupor. And this is the state in which the bare Monads are.
8:16 PM
I thought user8 was developerart?
or whatever his name was (I wasn't even here when he was, but I have seen a lot of user 8 contributions too)(
@Rachel will be able to tell you use User8 is, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Mark Trapp
@JimmyHoffa Nope, it was Mark.
A: No more "Chairman Mao reincarnate" :(

user8This post made me chuckle: in leaving, I think my deepest regret is that I was never able to explain sufficiently or clearly enough to people like yourself who still cling to "Not Programming Related" what the site is or how Stack Exchange works. The FAQ isn't what moderators—including me—act on...

Ah I was thinking of this one @YannisRizos
my mistake
@MichaelT I appreciate that monad explanation for imbuing my vocabulary with the word "appetitions"
Would a discussion on meta about raising the reputation limit for protected questions to 110 be worthwhile? I've noticed some poor answers on hot questions coming from users with 101 rep.
For grins, I think I would pair that discussion with lowering the reputation threshold for protecting questions.
8:42 PM
@GlenH7 111 is the limit already
Protection requires 10 reputation earned on the site to answer the question. That excludes the 100 rep association bonus.
Most 101 rep users giving sub par questions are actually 1 rep users + the association bonus.
@YannisRizos - thanks. Our version of the privileges explanation doesn't have the part about on the site called out, which is why I was confused. Seems like the discussion wouldn't be very interesting then.
I would love to see an automatic "hot question --> protected" rule in code.
@MichaelT There already is, if a question gets a ton of views in a short period and a couple of answers are deleted, then it's auto-protected.
But that requires deletion. I would just have it (in the universe where I'm in charge of .SE) that whenever something shows up on the hot list, it is automatically protected for the duration of its hottness.
perhaps the 2nd half of my above question would be more interesting then. Either lowering the rep level to protect or allowing voting to protect would be good enhancements.
8:50 PM
@GlenH7 Why not just flag for mod attention and ask for protection?
@YannisRizos - entirely too practical. It should be community driven.
@MichaelT That goes against SE's philosophy, you never know where the next awesome answer will come from. There are several examples, mostly on SO, where protecting a hot question would have cost us a great answer.
A: Help me remember a quote from Alan Kay

Alan KayI will try to remember what I said, but none of the answers so far are correct (every one of them was done in the 60s and 70s before the commercialization of PCs in the 80s). However, we could start all over and try to think of new inventions in computing since the 1980s.

Example of a 1 rep user giving the definitive answer to a hot question ;)
@YannisRizos As I said, its in the universe where .SE is ruled by an iron fist by none other than me. That is obviously not the case, so I can only go "it would be nice if...". Probably for the better. I'm not sure capacitance touch screens would deal well with an iron fist.
I think Jon Skeet better look out. Alan Kay has been a member for 19 days and he already has 100 up-votes and 3 badges for saying essentially "I don't remember." It must be nice being Alan Kay. — bmb Jan 12 '09 at 2:00
9:32 PM
@YannisRizos first thing I noticed over 10K is that when I get to 20K, I'll become tolerant to crappy answers. Look, if we denote deleted answers !, bad answers l and good ones o, here's what I get used to see "before": ooololoo. Now it turns into !o!!oo!lol!oo!!, making it feel like crap is normal state
@gnat The problem is that your encoding makes it look like lol. If you change the encoding, your perception might change.
The phrase "any advice will be welcome" should trigger automatic close vote for "not a real question"
10:05 PM
@MichaelT - would you count this variant too? " Any advice would be really, really appreciated!"
10:19 PM
@YannisRizos seriously, there's no way that's actually alan kay is it?
@GlenH7 So its "advice" + $modal_verb + $state_of_being + ... + ${welcome / appreciated}
Q: Does computer firmware stand between the processor at the boot stage?

IWishForGreatAnswersOn x86 PCs, and I'm sure this is very similar on any other modern desktop architecture(AMD, IA-32, SPARC, ARM, RISC OR CISC), laptop, embedded system, mobile system, or supercomputer/servers, there's a firmware chip/ROM containing burned machine code inside of it that actually "starts" up the har...

Is that a reincarnation of one of the known trolls?
@MichaelT - don't know if known or not, but my vote is "yes, he's a troll."
I was a little uncertain until he replied with
Try a little harder answering the question rather than expecting it to be poorly understood (http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/185477/does-computer-firmware-stand-between-the-processor-at-the-boot-stage#comment356762_185477)
Look at his questions and comments... it feels similar to me.
He's been suspended, and has a few times evaded his suspension (and had the new accounts merged back in)
@MichaelT - nice train spotting work there.
@GlenH7 No idea if it is him (unless it is him, and the accounts get merged afterwords). But it just feels similar.
@MichaelT the tone and style of the questions match.
10:28 PM
@GlenH7 And subject matter too.
@MichaelT - and he just posted another Q.
Its already at -4 and 3 close votes... and feels very much like one from another account (the virtual memory one).
11:00 PM
Jeff Atwood confirmed, that the user "Alan Kay" is THE "Alan Kay". You know, the guy who worked for that copier machine company... ;-) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Kaysplattne Jan 11 '09 at 15:01
@psr that's crazy, and frankly hilarious
of all the questions for him to chime in and answer, that's the one
That ancient python "python in the real world" question appears to be collecting some close votes again.
Q: How is Python used in the real world?

sq1020I'm looking to get a job as a Python programmer. I know the basics of the language and have created a few games with it using pygame. I've also started to experiment with Django. However, looking at the job market, it doesn't seem very many Python jobs are web-related. On the desktop side of thi...


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