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12:01 AM
@Cerberus: Found a picture of you online. I think it was from your FaceBook page.
Oh look, here's another ...
Wow, it's getting so hard to bait people in chat lately. I think we need @RegDwight and his notoriously thin skin.
Of course, my favorites are the @Cerberus action figures:
 
@Rob: What the...
 
Hahahaha ....
 
How did you get into my Facebook?
I never added you?
 
@RegDwight is Russian. He is into all your shit.
 
Are you Hotgirlsdeluxe1995?
Then maybe I added you.
Otherwise I'd have no idea.
 
12:08 AM
No, I'm SexyNurseInDrag666.
 
Oh right!
But I rejected you (no offense).
 
Uh-huh. He said no but he meant yes.
If you rejected me, how did I get hold of your action figures?
 
Well, ehh... I don't know! Perhaps it was in a moment of weakness then.
That I added you.
I see that it is time I got different pictures then.
 
If by "moment of weakness" you mean "your whole life" then, yeah, I guess it was a moment. Blink of an eye if looked at from the geological perspective, really.
The resemblance is uncanny.
 
sad face
 
12:11 AM
Except no sparkles on the wooden shoes.
Or "brilliants" I think you called them.
 
Hey you don't know what I look like besides my Facebook pictures.
Yes, briliiants I call them!
Real story:
I know this guy who is a model for some A&C-like brand. He once had to model in a special pair of Crocs: they had 10k in diamonds and other gems on them.
Diamonds on a plastic shoe.
So I will have no belittling of the brilliants on my wooden shoes!
 
Watch these babies go.
The aesthetic quality of the shoes is on par with that of the text in the video.
 
Yes.
So here's a stab from the past.
Kicks is an old slang term for shoes.
But that's not what they're singing about here.
 
Drugs?
 
12:20 AM
Not even a '60s pop group was dumb enough to sing about shoes.
 
I love his outfit.
 
Maybe. Who knows?
 
Probably...
 
He kind of has Dutch Boy hair though. If only he was blond/blonde.
 
[censored pedantic remark]
 
12:21 AM
I spekes how me likes.
 
Hmm what?
Do you know any good female composers?
 
I love the camera move on the painted paper plates at the end.
What were they thinking? "We're making art!"
 
"I am making art".
 
Hey I actually know a song you posted.
 
12:24 AM
Cool.
I like The Dandy Warhols.
 
I remember I used to like them when I was a young lad.
 
Did you ever dig these guys?
 
Hmm doesn't sound familiar.
 
Cool movie about those two bands:
Speaking of quirky indie rock, how about these guys?
 
I think I am into women composers now, sorry.
 
12:29 AM
Women composers? Such as?
And what's there to be sorry about?
 
That last song sounded good.
 
Damn straight.
 
"Sorry" was meant as an apology for not watching your movie about the bands...
Well the thing is that I hardly know any female composers, except Luise le Beau.
I discovered her today and I like her.
 
Heard Imogen Heap?
And this woman, who has a lot of great songs, but is most famous for a cover of an Elvis Presley song that played at the end of The Big Lebowski.
 
Imogen Heap? No? But that song was good too.
 
12:38 AM
And how about Amanda Palmer? Combining Kurt Weill and indie pop:
 
Yes!
I know that one.
Is good.
 
Since you're Euro-trash, you might like this group:
 
A pleasant variation on the Pygmalion story.
(That was about the coin-operated boy.)
 
@Cerberus — As opposed to the dour, tragic My Fair Lady?
And if we're talking about female musicians, how could we not mention
 
Heh well I wouldn't say that. It appears MFL was based on Shaw's Pygmalion, which was already quite far off from the real story.
Pygmalion is a legendary figure of Cyprus. Though Pygmalion is the Greek version of the Phoenician royal name Pumayyaton, he is most familiar from Ovid's Metamorphoses, X, in which Pygmalion was a sculptor who fell in love with a statue he had carved. In Ovid In Ovid's narrative, Pygmalion was a Cypriot sculptor who carved a woman out of ivory. According to Ovid, after seeing the Propoetides prostituting themselves (more accurately, they denied the divinity of Venus and she thus ‘reduced’ them to prostitution), he was 'not interested in women', but his statue was so fair and realistic...
 
12:48 AM
Falling in love with your own imagination. No way to top that.
 
Well, there is also:
:Ameinias redirects here. For the younger brother of Aeschylus, see Ameinias of Athens. Narcissus or Narkissos (), possibly derived from ναρκη (narke) meaning "sleep, numbness," in Greek mythology was a hunter from the territory of Thespiae in Boeotia who was renowned for his beauty. He was exceptionally proud, in that he disdained those who loved him. Nemesis saw this and attracted Narcisus to a pool where he saw his own reflection in the waters and fell in love with it, not realizing it was merely an image. Unable to leave the beauty of his reflection, Narcissus died. Ancient sources Se...
 
Yes, but that is him falling in love with his own face. Not the same thing at all.
 
Not the same, but better!
 
But inspiring one of the few Dali paintings I could ever stand.
 
Not bad.
I am also somewhat revolted by some Dali paintings, especially the one with the things on spindly legs.
 
12:52 AM
I like the spindly legs :)
 
Skinny legs and all?
 
I can see it, in a way, but it still isn't my cup of tea.
 
Ha, I was just about to paste that picture myself :)
 
Dali was a facile, talented poseur. He could paint anything, but he chose to paint that stuff.
 
No way! Then... I won!
I find it so hard to judge art in any remotely objective way.
 
12:54 AM
Yep, @Cerberus wins. Nothing left but to blow the place up:
 
Dali was into all the lucid dreaming stuff that was a fad at the time, and other surrealist methods, but hey, I enjoy a lot of it.
 
Ahh nooo not HIM.... you know, I don't really like Picasso either. Am I a barbarian?
 
Yes.
 
Do you like surrealist stuff in general?
 
Yes, I think it might be that I have a problem with surrealism, magic realism, synchronicity, etc.
 
12:56 AM
Or how about Chagall?
 
Yes. I do like Chagall.
@Cerberus: You and your Dutch Boy art.
 
Magritte?
 
@Kosmonaut: Scroll up and see what I found on @Cerb's FaceBook page ...
 
Hmm kind of the same problem, perhaps. I don't know much about art anyway. Perhaps I might like more styles if I just took some time to get to know them better.
Cue @RegDwight for a quote.
 
BTW, the guy who filmed Grand Illusion ...
Jean Renoir (; 15 September 1894 – 12 February 1979) was a French film director, screenwriter, actor, producer and author. As a film director and actor, he made more than forty films from the silent era to the end of the 1960s. As an author, he wrote the definitive biography of his father, the painter, Pierre-Auguste Renoir, Renoir, My Father (1962). Early life and career Renoir was born in the Montmartre district of Paris, France. He was the second son of Aline Charigot and the French painter Pierre-Auguste Renoir. He was also the brother of Pierre Renoir, a noted French stage a...
Here's a picture of him as a child:
 
12:59 AM
Hey is the Ceci n'est pas un pipe by Magritte? I didn't know that.
 
yes
 
Yep
 
Well that I like.
 
Concept art of its era. Also called a surrealist.
 
How about Hieronymus Bosch? The surrealist before surrealism
 
1:01 AM
Yeah you could say that.
 
Yeah, Miro, I have a Miro in my office
 
Really?
 
Yeah, let me see if I can find the one
 
Not bad.
Is it yours?
 
1:02 AM
Not a real Miro, haha.
 
Oh, a pity.
 
That would be cool though! No, I am still a poor grad student who doesn't buy Miros.
 
For Kosmo
That is such a poor reproduction of the original, though.
The colors are all washed out. Sorry.
 
I wish I felt more emotion with two-dimensional art. I can admire the technique but it rarely comes close to literature or music. I suppose most people have that.
 
1:05 AM
 
I do enjoy 2D art, but I can understand what you mean. I think music is inherently easier overall to bring out the emotion.
 
@Cerberus — Music is the supreme art form, IMO.
 
A small, grey Babylonian seal usually brings me more emotion than the Nachtwacht.
 
It plays on the emotions and the intellect without reference to anything representational.
 
True, though there are theories that it does represent some things.
 
1:06 AM
@Cerberus: Like this one?
 
And even a baby will respond emotionally to music.
 
Awww... if only he were Babylonian...
It is remarkable that music and humour are still mysteries, to a large extent.
 
Some people draw connections between music and language, and I think they are on to something
The way that we organize sentences follows a rhythmic pattern.
 
Yes. Cello = male voice, violin = female.
That too.
 
Music may stoop to language, but it remains always above it.
Well, we speak of people having a rhythm to their speech, a vocal cadence.
 
1:09 AM
I'm saying that some of the reasons we might find music appealing may be linked to some of the things that we do when we speak
One cool mini-example is the way we will try to align the intonation of consecutive words.
 
And when I listen to foreign languages I hear the music in them. It's the only way to really learn to understand them.
 
So, "Mississippi" gets stress on the penultimate syllable.
 
@Rob: You could start by memorizing a grammar book and some words...
 
But when we say "Mississippi Legislature", we put stress on the first syllable, to match with legislature
 
Silvestro Ganassi said it is the purpose of all instruments to emulate the human voice.
Sylvestro di Ganassi dal Fontego (1 January 1492 – mid-16th century) was a Venetian musician and author of two important treatises on instrumental technique. His first treatise covers recorder playing: Opera intitulata Fontegara (Venice, 1535). His second (in two volumes) is about the viola da gamba: Regola Rubertina (Venice, 1542) and Lettione Seconda (Venice, 1543). They cover both technicalities of playing as well as the subtleties of expression. There is also plenty of guidance on ornamentation - passaggi. The revival of interest in historically-aware musical performance has ...
And, really, you only have to listen to Mozart to know that's true.
 
1:12 AM
@Kos: So you call this aligning? Couldn't it also be explained as an aversion to too many unstressed syllables in large clusters, or something?
 
You are talking about stress clash, but there is no risk of stress clash there.
 
@Rob: I wonder what Fontego would have had to say about synthesizers...
 
Synthesizers emulate the human voice too.
 
Clash, as in two stressed syllables in a row?
 
Yeah
 
1:14 AM
Well, that's all part of poetry. Putting words together to making word music.
 
I was rather considering unstressed "Mississ-" and "-islature": two long rows of unstressed syllables too close together, which results in weird balance?
 
Playing with stressed and unstressed syllables ...
 
@Cerberus Well, in the words alone, those strings of unstressed syllables are there.
Keep in mind also that there is a secondary stress.
 
In Dutch, the phenomenon exists too: amsterDAM is regular; but the train station is AMsterdam AMstel.
Yes, I presume the new stress will be on syllable with the formerly secondary stress?
 
@Cerberus Now that one is a clear stress clash thing — although, you could really say that so-called alignment and avoidance of stress clash are symptoms of the same thing.
 
1:16 AM
Consider the music in these words from Ulysses: "Stately, plump Buck Mulligan came from the stairhead, bearing a bowl of lather on which a mirror and a razor lay crossed." Listen to how the rhythms flow and clash all within the same sentence.
 
@Cerberus Right.
 
@Kos: Oh, right, that is stress clash. My bad.
But is this alignment thing proven?
 
@Robusto Yeah, I mean when you get into poetic language, the connection is even clearer
 
Yes, metre...
Metre may have been originally mainly a memorizing aid.
Brb.
 
@Cerberus I would say a lot of these theories aren't really "proven" — there is still a long way to go. There are analyses with lots of evidence, but who knows exactly what's going on. We don't know yet.
 
1:20 AM
@Kos: Okay; a fair amount of evidence will do...
 
"So. Avelaval. My leaves have drifted from me. All. But one clings still. I'll bear it on me. To remind me of. Lff! So soft this morning, ours. Yes. Carry me along, taddy, like you done through the toy fair! If I seen him bearing down on me now under whitespread wings like he'd come from Arkangels, I sink I'd die down over his feet, humbly dumbly, only to washup.
"Yes, tid. There's where. First. We pass through grass behush the bush to. Whish! A gull. Gulls. Far calls. Coming, far! End here. Us then. Finn, again! Take. Bussoftlhee, mememormee! Till thousendsthee. Lps. The keys to. Given! A way a lone a last a loved a long the
 
Because I don't find it entirely evident in your example; that is, I could imagine this being caused by other factors.
Is there also a functional argument for this alignment? That is, does alignment make the words easier to pronounce, in a way that no other stress shift could?
 
I'm waxing too rhapsodic for this. TTYL.
 
ok, bye :)
 
Aww...
I appreciate your quotes.
 
1:27 AM
Bruce Hayes has done work on this kind of metric stuff.
It is using some old frameworks, but it might be interesting.
Again, if you're not convinced that it must be something rhythmic like I am describing, that's fine — it seems like it is headed in the right direction to me anyway.
 
Interesting.
I'm not saying I don't believe it... just that, if this is true, I'd like to know why we should want to repeat a certain rhythm.
 
Ah.
 
I mean, it is evident that we do, in many cases.
 
Why do we even want to
 
I am not sure.
 
1:33 AM
Well, I personally think that the answer to that question could also explain why we like music and rhythm (at least in part).
That's my hunch.
 
There are so many patterns of assimilation in morphology that are presented as logical ("the word is difficult to pronounce unless you..."); then again patterns of assimilation are far from universal, I think. The Dutch are "able" to pronounce sounds in succession that an Italian isn't, and vice versa.
Yes, there must be some relation to rhythm. But there are probably also factors at work that are absent from music.
 
@Cerberus Well, in that case, it is because the language learner acquires the phonological constraints of that language.
So "it is difficult" in that native language.
 
@Kos: Yes... but what exactly is the origin of these constraints? By the way, these constraints are also used as arguments for a word even when they seem to be absent from another word.
Inconsistent constraints might represent different historical stages.
But then only one, consistent set should still be "productive".
 
@Cerberus The origin of any constraints? As in, why can't anyone pronounce anything?
 
@Kos: Yes, more or less? I mean, they seem rather arbitrary, and if I try, I can very well pronounce some supposedly off-limits sounds.
 
1:40 AM
It seems that the mind optimizes for the particular language it acquires. And speaker interaction gradually leads to changes over time.
 
Yes, historical change may account for many inconsistencies.
 
@Cerberus Certainly, but not with the naturalness and ease of the native speaker. Although, from person to person, it might be more or less difficult.
 
Consider the word Hamburger.
In Dutch, it will be pronounced with a /x/ instead of /g/, even though /g/ is not at all hard to pronounce for a Dutchman: it doesn't exist in Dutch, but that is all.
 
Okay. Now I am hungry.
 
*Hungary
(Sorry.)
 
1:43 AM
There is clearly a lot going on with that. On the other hand, some people never master German ü/French u even if they study the language for a decade.
There are even sounds that we can pronounce in our own language, but only in certain phonological conditions.
Consider /ŋ/
 
Yeah, I can see that some sounds are very hard to pronounce for foreigners. But not all.
 
In English, we just can't pronounce it at the beginning of syllables.
But we love it at the end of syllables.
 
Hmm... can't we/you?
Or don't we?
 
No.
In other languages, yes. All the time.
 
I am trying, and it feels as though I could... is that illusion?
 
1:44 AM
But it is often difficult for someone to even hear the sound in English at the beginning of the word.
 
Hear it consciously, you mean?
 
They struggle to hear it. It is a perception problem.
One class I was a TA for was about the structure of an uncommonly taught language
 
I'm not sure what you mean about the sound at the beginning of the word.
 
It was a Kenyan language that used ŋ at the beginning of words. People struggled to hear it (until they adjusted over the weeks)
 
Okay, so by "hear" you mean "know that they hear"?
 
1:47 AM
Yes.
Know that it isn't /n/, but /ŋ/.
 
Their subconscious shelves it as an insignificant variant of n or something?
 
Their grammar doesn't treat such a contrast as meaningful.
 
Right.
 
They might hear something "off" about it, but not know why.
 
I believe in that phenomenon! Hehe.
 
1:48 AM
Of course, with training on a certain sound, you can improve the ability to perceive.
 
It is sometimes very difficult to get people to believe that they make some sort of glottal stop when a word "begins" with a vowel.
 
Definitely. I usually use "uh-oh" as my example to help people to understand it.
 
Hmm...
 
I pronounce "uh-oh" normally, and then just as two vowels without glottal stops.
Uh-oh = [ʔʌʔoʊ]
 
Good example.
 
1:50 AM
[ʌoʊ] sounds obviously wrong to anybody.
 
But they might say "hey you smuggled in an h" or something in place of the "void"?
 
Then I can say [ʌhoʊ] too.
 
Or whatever semi-vowel they perceive...?
I sometimes do the opposite:
I add a glottal stop, as in c[ʔ]ow.
Then I say, hey can you hear what I have just added? Is it something or nothing? Don't you think that sounds similar to what you hear in "ear"?
 
Yeah, that also works.
 
I have absolutely no faith in my own ability to perceive these things.
 
1:53 AM
I find it tough in Arabic.
 
Oh, they have so many weird consonants...
 
Which I am very bad at after working hard on it for a while.
 
Aww.
Hearing or speaking?
 
Yup.
:)
 
Awwwww...
 
1:54 AM
It's okay. I blame Arabic, not myself :)
 
And right you are!
I once did a test with an Italian guy.
He would pronounce gato and gatto, and we were trying to establish what exactly the difference was.
I think it was compensatory lengthening of the a in gato.
Or shortening in gatto, if you will.
We tested it by his pronouncing only the first syllable, and I had to guess which once he had begun to pronounce.
 
Well, there is also gemination of the [t] in "gatto" right? I don't speak Italian at all but I thought that was true as well.
Oh I see
 
Well, gemination?
There is still only one stop.
We were wondering whether the stop itself changed at all between t and tt.
 
Right, but you hold it longer.
 
Or whether it was just the vowel.
Hold a stop?
Our hypothesis was that you can't hold a stop.
 
1:58 AM
Yes, gemination
 
A voiceless stop.
Do you mean by gemination double letters, or double sounds?
 
I'm talking about sounds.
This article is about the phonology of the Italian language. It deals with the phonology and phonetics of Standard Italian as well as with geographical variants. Vowels {|class="wikitable" |- !   ! Front ! Back |-class=nounderlines align=center ! Close | || |-class=nounderlines align=center !Close-mid | || |-class=nounderlines align=center ! Open-mid | || |-class=nounderlines align=center !Open |colspan=2| |} Notes: *In Italian there is no phonemic distinction between long and short vowels. However, vowels in stressed open syllables are long (except when word-final). *W...
 

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