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12:21 AM
@YannisRizos - When people are upset that questions were closed and they fear they might be deleted you say it's just to prevent new answers. When people are upset that closed questions were deleted you say that's what happens to closed questions that aren't improved.
@psr All closed questions are on a path to deletion. On ProgSE, we tend to avoid deleting closed questions that add value to the site, regardless of whether they fit our guidelines or not. If you have evidence to the contrary, Meta is where you should post it.
@YannisRizos - "@JimmyHoffa Closing != not worth having around. Simply put, closing == no more answers, kthxbai."
@psr Your point being?
Isn't there some contradiction between "All closed questions are on a path to deletion" and your response to JimmyHoffa?
Forgot the @YannisRizos. Never forget the YannisRizos.
12:43 AM
@psr Where's the contradiction? Closures themselves are nothing more than a way to stop further answers, what happens to a question after it gets closed is a different issue. Some will certainly be deleted, some will be re-opened and most duplicates will be merged. "not worth having around" is only relevant to the first category.
...and it's not like we don't have quite a few years old closed questions around...
...but if it's guarantees you are looking for, then the only guarantee that a closed question won't be deleted is getting it re-opened.
@psr When you get to 10K you'll get access to a list of recently deleted questions. At that point you'll realize that we only delete crap. The only time that questions that weren't necessarily crap were deleted was during STCI, but those deletion candidates were advertised on Meta for at least two weeks prior to deletion (and if I remember correctly, only @Rachel stepped up and salvaged a few).
@YannisRizos @psr As a 10k+ user I can confirm that they are indeed a pile of stinking garbage. They smell like a combination of solder, magic smoke, and wet, feral turing machines.
1:05 AM
@YannisRizos - During STCI I didn't salvage any because Mark Trapp's criteria for what would constitute salvaging were incomprehensible. What was wrong with them in the first place was frequently incomprehensible.
@psr Good thing we aren't doing STCI anymore then.
1:20 AM
@psr: Suffice it to say, I didn't understand @Mark Trapp's moderation style. He just came across as a bitter man.
@JimG. I think much of that had to do with the site changes
and yeah I think he was bitter on some level
I'm not gonna judge him.
@World Engineer: Right. It's hard to based solely on your online experience.
@JimG. I'm basically the same as my online presence. Honest, chatty, knowledgeable, serious, and kind of a jackass now and then though I don't mean to be
1:25 AM
@WorldEngineer: That's actually a good point. // Although I've said that at least half a dozen times that if @Rachel and @YannisRizos went out for a beer (in the real world), they'd walk away with a newfound appreciation for each other.
@JimG. hard to say
@WorldEnginner: Emphasis: They both really, really want to make Programmers.SE a better place. They just disagree about how to do so.
@JimG. so do I. I tend to stand in the middle on that. I'd love for us to be able to be more permissive but I understand why we can't
there's a reason why I'm here all the time instead of reddit
the things that bugs me about bad questions here is: most of the time they are good questions, that haven't been rubber ducked properly
1:33 AM
@WorldEngineer: I understand why moderators are expected to uphold consistency; but I also know that Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." // Even if Stackexchange wanted most sites to be strictly Q&A, J think that it could carve out a niche for more permissive sites, which is why I'm often sympathetic to @Rachel's point of view.
@JimG. I think it's a case of being bitten by the dog
Programmers was the dog that bit
and it was a robozombie pitbull
so they went toward the other direction and have stayed there
@WorldEngineer: Ha!! // Fun Fact: Did you know that Rob Zombie designed the set for 'Pee Wee's Playhouse'?
1:35 AM
@JimG. did you know that James Cameron and James Horner got their big breaks on the same film?
and it wasn't Titanic
@JimG. I'm actually just barely too young for Pee Wee
+ I was in Germany from 87-90
@World Engineer: No, which movie?
@JimG. Battle Beyond the Stars
1:39 AM
it has a spaceship with boobs
it's actually really pretty good
particularly for 1980
@World Engineer: Ha! Cool.
@JimG I'm going to jump in on your previous discussion if you don't mind... you have to remember that SE is a network for expert Q&A. That doesn't mean that beginners aren't welcome but it means that the network is trying to be one of the most reliable source for info on everything. Subjective questions don't have any home here because there is no real answer. That's why you don't see "What language should I learn next?" In an Encyclopedia.
It's not that I'm against the questions, but that's why forums haven't completely died out...
@Dynamic: I really can't disagree with anything you just said.
@Dynamic: During 2010-2011, I feel like many borderline questions were abruptly and unilaterally closed, and I feel like that sucked some of the life out of Programmers.SE. For instance, some very excellent users from that time period no longer contribute here.
Fortunately, the current roster of moderators try to rehabilitate borderline questions. They understand that abrupt closures discourage new users.
But I'm often sympathetic to @Rachel 's point of view because I definitely shared her concern about the abrupt closures (approximately 1.5 years ago).
1:58 AM
@JimG Abrupt closures are sometimes needed to make a statement: "This question is NOT going to be dealt with on the site". I feel like we (as a community) do a good job of sending the message when needed and letting the questions play out if we aren't positive.
@Dynamic: I don't have a problem with abrupt closures. But I do have a problem with abrupt unilateral closures on borderline questions by moderators who aren't interested in an alternate point of vide
@Dynamic I'd actually argue gaming, cooking and DIY do fine with "beginner" questions
I think it's more a question of rubber ducking and focus
and I think Stack Overflow kind of is the "beginners" version of us.
most beginners aren't concerned with code structure (they should be) or readability (again, they should be_
2:05 AM
@JimG that doesn't happen often... Mods are usually lax with that close vote button
@World Yeah you're right...
@Dynamic I think Programmers is something of the odd man out along with physics and math and a few others where the gulf between beginners and pro is huge
@Dynamic: You're right. The moderation is much better now. I really can't recall the last unwarranted permanent unilateral closure on Programmers.SE.
at the same time, I think it's a question of wanting to learn something vs wanting a solution to a given problem only
I think we are very good at the former and punish the latter
2:08 AM
@WorldEngineer That's because most of the beginners questions on those sites are usually subjective
I gtg to bed...
@Dynamic salaam allaykum
@WorldEngineer Lol that just made my night :P
@Dynamic I took a semester of Arabic a decade ago
or nearly that
3:38 AM
"The cast and crew of "Mamma Mia" did a better job promoting tourism in Greece than any Ministry of Tourism effort. Spain, Italy, and Turkey are eating our lunch."
@YannisRizos: ^^^ Do you agree? news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5006025
Mamma Mia... Only greek advertisement I'm aware of is my big fat greek wedding, and that's more like an antivertisement heh
@JimmyHoffa Here's an interesting Data.SE query for you that shows close voters and close vote counts, ordered from most to least votes: data.stackexchange.com/programmers/query/90842/top-close-voters
It only counts successful close votes though, not expired or not-yet-closed votes
Top 5 since 1/4/2012:
1249 gnat
1235 Walter
769 ChrisF
571 Yannis Rizos
409 Robert Harvey
It doesn't count deleted questions though, and I know we have a lot of those
3:54 AM
@Rachel: Dumb Question - Was that query focused on only Programmers.SE?
@JimG. Yes, you can specify which database a query targets
Here's a better link: http://data.stackexchange.com/programmers/query/90843/top-close-voters

Modified to only show the top 100, and added a few more comments at the top
Very interesting.
As gnat said, the bus factor is greater than 1. But not significantly so.
@JimmyHoffa: Sorry. I'm late to the party. Can you describe the "bus factor"? [These stats are kind of interesting.]
Number of folks who need to be hit by a bus before the system is effected
granted lacking gnat it wouldn't have a significant effect, but lacking gnat, walter and chrisF the effect would be VERY significant on the way the front page of P.SE looked in regards to close votes
Or maybe it wouldn't. Maybe others would pick up the slack because enough others agree with them
But we will never know if they are a minority in opinion on what should be closed or not without abstinence from them for a test which won't happen I don't suspect. Not a huge deal frankly, the site isn't bad necessarily right now, I can still enjoy it. I just think it might benefit a greater deal of people more than the 3 lost if they abstained from executing their opinion upon the site.
@JimmyHoffa: Oh wow. That's a great point. And this is exactly how I felt during the @Mark Trapp era. I should engineer my own query to confirm this suspicion.
@JimmyHoffa: In 2011, I bet the bus factor was 1.
@JimmyHoffa: And a bus factor of 1 is unhealthy.
4:07 AM
@JimG. Honestly it was like an hour or something after I had a protracted argument with Mark Trapp on Meta that he left. I know people seem to miss him but I feel proud and that I may have been the straw that broke the camel's back effectively benefitting the site as a whole
@JiimmyHoffa: I'm actually glad he's gone. He wasn't very friendly, and although he had an unbelievable amount of activity on the StackExchange network, I'm not convinced that he was a net positive.
It became clear that the argument did nothing in convincing him so I deleted all of my comments on the post and suggested he do the same, think he may have also decided to delete his account as well.
@JimmyHoffa: Right. Given his personality, I'm not surprised that he chose "the nuclear option".
@Rachel strange query ya wrote heh
4:25 AM
@JimmyHoffa Two mistakes: 1) Closure stats are pointless if you don't count deleted questions (and you can't), 2) You're assuming that people who don't vote to close disagree with the closures. For everyone else but yourself that's pure speculation.
If you want to influence the site more, all you have to do is... do more. If you disagree with a closure, try and get the question re-opened. Everything else is just a waste of time.
@YannisRizos You assume I assume! So There! heh no really, I recognize 100% i'm speculating here
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if our more active close voters are also our more active re-open voters... Some people are just a bit more active than others, and I have no idea why you've chosen to focus on the one activity that you perceive as negative, and are ignoring everything else.
make no mistake as to my allusions regarding that. but I'm an engineer, speculating about the interplay of parts in a complex system based on statistics I can find is what I do :P
@YannisRizos: Right - A devil's advocate would say, "If @gnat and @Walter hadn't voter to close question 'A', then somebody else would have." - And I actually buy that argument. // The unilateral closures are a different story; but like I said, I don't think that's a problem for Programmers.SE right now (although it may have been at one time).
the only way to find out about my speculations is by testing, I don't suspect it will happen but some thoughtful conversation is worth sharing
@YannisRizos what @JimG. said heh
4:30 AM
@JimG. You and Mark had a bit of history, and you are being a bit bitter. Mark's not around anymore, no reason to continue the feud.
@JimG. Neither gnat nor Walter close questions, they vote to close. If theirs is the only vote, the question will not be closed.
@YannisRizos: 100% correct.
So, why are we even talking about this? I could understand a discussion about mod closures, but every regular user can only influence the site to a very certain degree.
@JimG. @Rachel simplified the query a touch so it's easier to alter for different perspectives heh data.stackexchange.com/programmers/query/90849/top-close-voters
@YannisRizos: I'm not sure. But the query caught my eye because I had no idea that I had voted to close my questions that @Thomas Owens (a moderator).
@JimG. The stats are not accurate, data explorer doesn't include deleted questions.
4:38 AM
@YannisRizos: Ah yes. Good point.
@JimG. Also don't forget that the query shows successful close votes, being at the top of that list is a very good thing, it means that your instincts are mostly right (as normally it takes 4 others to agree with you before your close vote is successful).
It would appear as thought agreement comes from a minority and not the majority
@JimmyHoffa 40K users, waiting for 20K + 1 users to vote to close wouldn't really work.
187 users can close vote
@JimmyHoffa And even if all 187 voted to close a question, the agreement would still come from a minority, 187 users aren't the community at large.
4:58 AM
Can easily modify the query to get top reopen voters: data.stackexchange.com/programmers/query/90852/…
Since 10/1/12:

16 ElYusubov
14 Yannis Rizos
14 Rachel
12 ChrisF
11 maple_shaft
I updated the top close voters a bit too to include Mark Trapp and make it a bit faster to run: data.stackexchange.com/programmers/query/90851/top-close-voters
Top close voters since 10/1/2012:
746 Walter
644 gnat
312 Robert Harvey
294 ChrisF
265 ElYusubov
Of course, that only counts successful reopen/close votes, which is why the reopen count is so low
Gnat is on the top reopen list since 1/1/2012 though:

64 Yannis Rizos
47 Rachel
41 ChrisF
28 maple_shaft
25 gnat
I wish it showed failed reopen votes... I'd be so much higher :p
I think the only safe assumption from both lists is that some people are generally more active than others. And... we already knew that.
@YannisRizos Don't make me go make a "Most Active Users" query :p
Actually thats something I want to do some day.... graph active user trends
@YannisRizos I invoke godwins law at you, you are a godwin! I mean a fascist! Oh wait, that's a load of bullocks. Uhm.. Just quit shooting down my ideas alright? Ya jerk. :)
There's a curiosity, who has the highest question/answer/comment count in the same period, is it the same people with the highest close vote count?
@YannisRizos But as an example, run the query on some of the other smaller SE sites. You'll see different trends in the range of numbers in the top 10 close voters (Just need to type a SE URL in the box below the "run query" button)
@Rachel The API returns "new active users", it might be easier to graph trends than SEDE. No idea what "new active users" means though.
5:15 AM
whoa, this is interesting, @Rachel, is my query wrong here? data.stackexchange.com/programmers/query/90849/top-close-voters
displayname questionCount
---------------- -------------
user970696 28
Giorgio 15
Gasan 15
Nick Rosencrantz 12
dukeofgaming 12

(5 row(s) affected)

displayname answercount
------------- -----------
ElYusubov 109
GlenH7 76
DeveloperDon 68
Robert Harvey 65
Telastyn 64

(5 row(s) affected)
@JimmyHoffa No idea, I'm no sql expert and its late :) But I think it looks right
don't forget only one mod vote is needed for a closure too
@YannisRizos probably filters based on users.lastaccessdate and users.creationdate
@Rachel Interesting, but still wildly inaccurate without counting deleted questions.
@YannisRizos Yes, I know for a fact you go on mini deletion sprees of low-quality questions every week or so :p
@YannisRizos That's part of why I made this request:
Q: Can some metadata about deleted posts be included in Data.SE?

RachelI like to use Data.SE to view usage stats for some of the sites, however deleted posts are not included on Data.SE and I think this skews the numbers quite a bit, particularly on sites with a lot of deletions. Would it be possible to include some limited data about deleted posts in Data.SE? You...

Its hard to get accurate statistics when I don't have all the data
Interesting, highest number of posts (Qs/As) since 1/1/2012 correlates to commonly low close-votes (except ElYusubov who is just an all around extremely active fella)
@JimmyHoffa What's "Not vote related" mean?
5:27 AM
I just don't understand how deleted questions plays into it other than to increase the sample size which appears of relatively sufficient size already?
It's just a count from the Posts table where the user created the post. My read of the PostTypes table tells me they're posts of Qs/As and other things but not votes
@JimmyHoffa Almost all deleted questions are closed, and there are seriously hundreds of questions that have been deleted in the past 3 months that are not included in Data.SE data
And you think in that sample size there would be different statistics noticeable than in these?
@JimmyHoffa Of course. For example, I've deleted 900+ questions this quarter, and I've closed more than half, that's about 450 successful close votes that are missing from your query (and only for the past 4 months).
@JimmyHoffa Probably, because the deleted questions are usually the bottom of the low-quality questions, so you get a lot of good closers in those close vote lists
@Rachel what do deleted posts tell us in the scope of who makes most close votes? If most folks doing close votes now were doing more with the delete votes it just shows the same thing, an extremely active minority, if it shows other users coming up to par with the same folks then you could say the minority who are actively close voting more than everyone else are doing so disproportionately on questions not bad enough to be deleted
5:31 AM
@YannisRizos And yeah, what Yannis said too :) I was surprised he wasn't higher on the "close vote" list
@JimmyHoffa Why would you expect any stats to show anything else but an active minority?
@YannisRizos sorry, an actively closing minority. If you look at Qs/As the gradient from most down is significantly more normalized
@JimmyHoffa We won't know unless we look at the data. The main reason I asked originally was for stats about open vs closed questions. It may be that data isn't as relevant in your queries
Most people come to a Q&A site to ask and answer questions, everything else is a secondary activity, and the majority of the community doesn't get involved in any secondary activity.
@YannisRizos Hrrm considered there are almost 9k questions in Data.SE since 10/1/2012, that means roughly 10+% of questions are deleted and missing from Data.SE
Bah I like stats and numbers too much. I'm going to bed :)
5:40 AM
I find it interesting that the top 3 folks closing questions participate in asking and answering them very little (way down the list in number of Qs/As). Would make it seem like they may be taking more away from the site than they're contributing. I actually expected to see them pretty high up there. That said, my query may be wrong.
@JimmyHoffa Why would you characterize closing as "taking away from the site"?
That's... just plain wrong.
It's removing content that was desired by the folks actively contributing (often times)
content that may Make The Internet a Better Place
I'll have to tweak my query to filter out closed questions with negative scores
Closing doesn't remove anything.
oh quit contradicting yourself, you said earlier closed questions are on their way to deletion
then you also said the opposite and the same again.. here's what I know closing does do:
Discourages participation.
@JimmyHoffa Closing by itself doesn't do anything more than stop further answers. Deletion is a different process, and one that needs a new set of votes.
5:44 AM
You may be archiving old questions by closing them to keep people off of them, but when someone wants to ask a question on a related topic, they start writing the title, see the closed question and presume well dang they don't want this content
@JimmyHoffa If you had that on one line I'd star it because I couldn't agree more :) "here's what I know closing does do: Discourages participation."
It would be healthy for the sites if the closures were followed up by edits and reopened, however this is very rarely the case
@JimmyHoffa And why exactly is that a bad thing?
It's not if you want to mothball the site in ziplock baggies for the smithsonian
but if you want a continuously growing library of modern thought from the industry, discouraging participation is a pretty bad approach
However that said, a great majority of closed questions are low quality for the site, and probably don't belong. But in that case I think we need to improve the way we market our site and introduce ourselves to new users
@JimmyHoffa Well, I've been hearing that argument for a while now, still traffic is growing.
5:46 AM
I think the traffic growth is part of why you've been hearing that argument so much
new blood bolstering the rank of folks who think what they see aint quite right :P
@YannisRizos traffic may be growing, but participation is dropping
That's a good point. Further, traffic growing is the natural state of a web site as hooked into SEO as all the SE is.
Also someone pointed out that the average Views per Visit has been going down too, so an individual person is spending less time on the site
plus more content means more traffic, the rate of content growth (participation) is dropping, but traffic won't drop unless net content is removed
@Rachel yeah, I saw that in Quantcast
@Rachel I don't necessarily agree with your either your definition of participation, nor your interpretation of the graph.
> unless net content is removed
Hey, I'm doing my best ;P
5:49 AM
@YannisRizos Ok.... if you don't agree that votes = participation, then what about new questions asked?
Heh, as much content as you may ever remove, it would take a hell of a lot for the site to have negative content growth :P
@YannisRizos Or perhaps answers posted?
@Rachel New questions asked is terribly skewed because of deletions, and the answer count going down is actually a good thing. Actually, it's absolutely fantastic, there's nothing worse for the site than those crap questions with 20+ (almost) one line answers that said more or less the same.
I can understand the final dip at the end due to the holiday, however based on our new user rate, questions, answers, and votes should be going up, not down
even with negative content growth traffic would likely still grow. The internet adds new users constantly, and the net programmer count in the world is likely growing
5:52 AM
@Rachel I don't know about anything else, but answers going down is certainly a sign of health.
@YannisRizos answer to question ratio going down is anyway
As long as we maintain our very high percentage of answered questions.
is that going down though?
@YannisRizos .... See this sort of attitude is why I had to stop participating with programmers. I can't argue with people who ignore stats, evidence, and users that try time and again to make the same argument against the system and just get sent away by the crowd of established meta users
It drives me crazy
@Rachel Hm, what? What am I ignoring? 99% of our questions are answered, and we've maintained that percentage for as long as I remember. The fact that we dropped from 8 answers per question to about 5 is a very good thing.
This isn't a forum, 7-8 answers per question was not healthy...
6:00 AM
@YannisRizos we were talking about user participation
7 mins ago, by Yannis Rizos
@Rachel I don't know about anything else, but answers going down is certainly a sign of health.
@Rachel This is the comment you responded to, I was talking about answers.
I agree with @Rachel. Yes, "the audience that remains has a higher percentage of experts in the field" - however, this trend may end up with a closed circle of experts who have nothing to ask, thus nothing to answer... :-( — Péter Török Feb 20 '12 at 10:44
@YannisRizos Oh, I often don't bother using the "reply" arrow, I just type @Ya[tab] so it "replies" to the most recent message of yours
@Rachel Nope, it doesn't. If you see the little arrow, you've responded to a specific message, if you just type the username, it doesn't link to a previous message.
In any case, I was talking about answers. And I don't really care about the rest of the "evidence", they are fuzzy at best.
@JimmyHoffa Yes, the average answers to question ratio is going down
Yeah I see that
Question count is surprisingly steady (I'm ignoring closed ones, just thinking in terms of participation creating Questions)
6:06 AM
@JimmyHoffa Why surprisingly? Traffic's going up, questions come at a steady flow...
Well I'm off. I wish someone with access to the full database and a knowledge of stats and what makes a healthy Q&A site for the internet would run some queries and adjust some things accordingly, but oh well
@YannisRizos I just mean surprisingly in that.. it's really really stable. over a long period of time. Just kind of interesting
@JimmyHoffa are you referring to asked or closed questions?
ignoring the open/closed
6:08 AM
mmmm ok :)
Goodnight, nice talking to you guys :)
(yeah, even you Yannis) :)
Wait I take that back. You've reminded me of one of the reasons why I hate coming to P.SE
@Rachel You aren't getting a goodnight from me (but that's only because it's 8am here ;)
8am? Get that pot brewing man!
There's PHP to hack! To the Rizmobile!
Wow, I must be getting tired to make cracks like that..
Though if I had a cool name like yours I would totally call my car the Rizmobile
just saying.
Heh, it doesn't sound cool in Greek, trust me...
6 hours later…
12:42 PM
I know this is coming at the discussion fairly late but @YannisRizos is right, you're focusing on one thing that you think is "bad". My bet is if you checked the data you would find that most of those mean close voters :) are also on the top of the list for editors as well...
I would also speculate that those top close voters are also the top commenters
Just saying you could be looking at a ton of different activity other than just focusing on close votes.
3 hours later…
3:26 PM
@Walter I recognize the validity of the other activity, it was just getting late and I didn't want to put those queries together just yet heh
I was planning on looking at comments/edits today
The Qs/As though, you have been involved in ~40% of all closed posts last year, but written all of 2 answers last year and no questions :P
Surely there's more questions you could have shared knowledge on, the answers you do have show you're a proper engineer
@YannisRizos is the greatest commenter of 2012 :)
Followed closely by @Giorgio, then steep drop off to @RobertHarvey then steep dropoff to @gnat where it's a more normal gradation downward from there
Does your query remove comments on a person's own post?
Otherwise, there might be noise from people who generate a lot of comments responding to those comments with a new comment.
3:41 PM
Ah good point
I didn't run your query to see what the numbers are. It might not even matter. I suspect it won't change much, though, but it might.
But I don't suspect that to be much of the case, @YannisRizos being way up there and haven't very few Qs/As heh
Ordered by number of Comments+Edits
I shouldn't have names in there. I'm not trying to single people out, I'm just trying to see how activity lays out in the site to a small portion of users or a large portion
It's not like voting to close is a bad thing, there's no reason to not have names.
That's the minority opinion I'm trying to show statistics prove. The majority opinion is clearly otherwise considering how few people do close vote, and based on posts/comments/edits you can't call those users who aren't close-voting disengaged
I've been playing with R recently, so if you want me to try to make pretty graphs or do computations and get something that is useful in a CSV format, let me know and I can make pictures or do stats on it.
3:56 PM
I think most people other than the minority recognize close-votes have two negative effects: They remove content which is potentially beneficial to 1 person (the poster) and possible many others (yes close doesn't delete but as Yannis said it will be) but more importantly than that:
Close votes discourage participation by making clear that participation will be punished unless you're super careful.
Go ahead heh, could be fun for you for sure, see if R can give you greater insights into the data.
Not all closures will lead to deletions. Duplicates, for example. Duplicates are good closures, since it adds terms for searching and then a link to the good answers.
Mostly I'm speculating on things and trying to see how the data lays around my speculations
Yannis said all closures will lead to deletion
I don't agree with that. Most will, except for exact duplicate.
he himself admitted he's deleted 10% of the content over the past 3 months
Maybe you won't delete all closed questions, but he said all closed questions are on their way to be deleted
Unless the duplicate is closed and things go to a dead page. That's bad.
I'm pretty sure there's a post on Meta.SO discouraging that.
A: When should a question be deleted?

kiamlalunoGenerally questions that are deleted are those questions that are not useful for the site where they are asked, such as off-topic, not constructive, not real, and too localized questions. Duplicated questions are generally not deleted because they can help who is searching the duplicated questio...

To quote: "Over time, closed questions that are not useful as signpoints to other questions may also be removed". Duplicates pointing to open questions are useful as signs and shouldn't be deleted. /cc @YannisRizos
4:04 PM
Oops, my inner joins were filtering folks out because some haven't posted Qs/As, Close Voted, Commented/Edited, etc.
@Walter heh looks like voting to close is about all you do on the site at all :P
Is this all users who have voted to close at least one post since the date specified?
No, it's all users with rep > 3000
I have all left joins now so it get's all users even if they have 0 close votes
Interesting. I don't see anyone with >3k rep who hasn't participated in a closure.
Never mind. I was looking at the wrong column
Because of the count, if they've never voted for a closure, it'll still say 1 because that 1 record it's counting is the User record, while the Left join on post history isn't multiplying their user record to count more than 1
@gnat So I was apparently wrong all over the place and the vote invalidation does trigger on deleted posts. Don't take it personally - the script is dumb and can't tell your intent or judge the quality of the posts. At least in this case the posts were improved? :)
4:39 PM
@AnnaLear understood - thanks. No hard feelings indeed - I'd undownvote edited posts myself :)
5:03 PM
@JimmyHoffa something's wrong with your query, go to users/editor/all apparently there's some edits your missing.
If you want the number of the active users to be greater than participate more and encourage more to participate more.
@Walter I participate a fairly bit I believe. And I admit the query may not be 100% correct, it's a bit of a complex query off hand and most of it was written late at night heh. I don't show up in the queries because my close-vote ability came less than a week ago and these statistics are over the course of a year.
5:18 PM
@JimmyHoffa If you're voting, DE will update again tomorrow (night in Eastern time, I believe).
So your queries can show you.
Ah your edits don't show up in "SuggestedEdits" @Walter, I mistook the SuggestedEdits table
A cow-orker of mine asked the question "What is a good program to write to show off the differences between languages and let languages really have some meat to the problem?"
Kind of like how everyone writes "hello world" to show basic printing, but it doesn't really show anything about the language.
I suggested a poker hand evaluator.
@MichaelT yeah, interview question I've used is design a poker game. Hand Evaluator is just one piece but yeah that would be decent
5:32 PM
I believe the poker hand evaluator has enough leeway in its design that each language can implement it in a way that showcases that language... other ideas for other problems that would work similarly?
Darts historical scoreboard
has elements of CRUD as well as calculation
leaderboard type thing that is
Something that requires IPC would be good as well since different languages are stronger and weaker there
What are the bases you would want to cover to show the strengths/weaknesses?

IPC, Data Modeling, Computation, DSL? Parsing?
Its more just of a mental exercise right now. I have half a mind to try create a part of my site to work on this.
One key bit is to avoid the 'being clever in code' that so many people seem to strive for when doing show case problems.
Iduno, cleverness though bad in general makes a little sense in show casing
cleverness takes a languages features to the absolute extreme
Which does a good job of contrasting it to show what it can do, but it's bad show casing if you're trying to show that feature of the language in a good light heh
No part of cleverness makes the feature look good so much as it draws you to the bounds of that feature, which can be useful in understanding that feature
5:48 PM
Another one is a sudoku solver, but those tend to be a bit bigger without doing too much more.
6:09 PM
You're thinking of stuff that will favor calculation strengths of languages
Solvers are going to have less display of data modelling strengths
they will do a poorer job displaying IPC
or concurrency
Ruby has a huge weakness with concurrency in lots of implementations
I recall reading a bit on some AI challenge and the guy was going to do it in Ruby... and fought with it alot... then switched back to java and had it running quickly the way he wanted to without fighting.
I'm more thinking about language/program structure. "Look at the neat things we can do with enums... did you know java had an EnumSet that works as fast as a bitfield?"
Showing Java's data modelling strengths with a sudoku solver would require cleverness because there's not much data modelling in a solver
Or the scalar/integer/string nature in perl... "I'll just concatenate these strings of digits together and then sort them as a integer" - that type of thing.
anything poker related would do better there because it's a type-based game
6:15 PM
Which is why I like the poker example better. I was wondering if there are other good, standardish problems that can be used to demonstrate the language.
@MichaelT how do any of these problems show the redundancy strength or IPC strengths of Erlang?
Poker is a very standard approach, very commonly used.
@JimmyHoffa It wouldn't - thus, need another problem to show good IPC problem.
the leaderboard stuff I like because it requires calculating the games score to come up with the winner which shows calculation, there's plenty of data modelling, and the board itself would be IPC updated/accessed
and it's very simple to understand and do
could involve transactionality wherein you show WCF's distributed transaction abilities
It's got a variety of things going on that is.
2 hours later…
7:56 PM
@JimmyHoffa Can you add up the values from each column per user, and put them into a total column, then sort by that please?
8:15 PM
@Dynamic you need to learn SQL, you do it :P
I added up comments and edits. Go ahead and add on Posts as well and that's all, unless you also want close votes added in. If you want total activity that's a much easier query.
9:08 PM
@JimmyHoffa I never said that. I said all closed questions are on a path to deletion, but they can also be: re-opened, merged (dupes), or even stay around closed for quite some time. Not all closures will lead to deletion, but the only guarantee that a closed question won't be deleted is getting it re-opened (except dupes).
9:57 PM
@YannisRizos I distinctly remember you saying it. It went like this: "All closed questions are good, I'm Godwin, and good night."
I mean, wait no.. :)
10:08 PM
@JimmyHoffa it wasn't "good night" its "to the Rizomobile!"
10:47 PM
@MichaelT @JimmyHoffa You two are aware of what Rizos means in Greek right? chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/4700134#4700134
So instead of John The Nomad he's John The No-longer-mad
11:04 PM
@JimmyHoffa that was simultaneously one of the best and worse puns ever
Nyuck nyuck nyuck. :)
@MichaelT I just looked at that euler, that's a great candidate for a concatenative DSL. A perfect one actually.
@WorldEngineer you think that was bad, you clearly never heard of the bugle. Oof is all I can say about that.

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