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5:00 PM
@JosephWright Sorry to harm, but would the advanced have taken much longer?
@JG I think pretty much the same time.
@JG No, it's the same downloads
@tohecz doublet, tuple or pair
@FaheemMitha I think I'm happy with doublet ;) Mainly because "pair" seems to have the sense of "equal position of the two things" which is not my case, moreover I use "pair" for something different.
But thanks anyways!
@PeterGrill : I've updated the first version of the diagram. I've changed the arrows to look more like in the question (I prefer the latex' style, am not especially fond of colored arrows, and like my arrows entering and exiting at 90 degrees). Your aesthetic is presumably different, so feel free to alter according to taste.
@tohecz Sure.
@PeterGrill : Also, just my 2c, but I don't think you need to have two diagrams (with and without arrows) for the first version of the code. Just with arrows is sufficient.
5:07 PM
Speaking of diagrams: do you draw automata with TikZ? Is there a good tutorial for this? (@Peter ?)
@tohecz I believe you can draw anything with TikZ. Did you look at the gallery?
@FaheemMitha yeah, there's no "automaton" example, only a similar one, but the code is too complicated and the "automaon idea" is really hidden there. I believe there's some automata library for tikz
@NicolaTalbot Did you also notice chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/6856121#6856121 And would it be a nice example?
@tohecz Ok. I don't really know what automata are, anyway.
5:14 PM
@Speravir Yes: I'd assumed it was dealt with looking at the meta thread.
@tohecz I go away for a few minutes and the world goes mad. Who suggested doublet? I strongly suggest that that is not what you want! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublet_%28clothing%29 You might want couplet, though couple would sound better, but pair would be best (even if used elsewhere differently).
@Speravir I've altered the tags
@AndrewStacey I did, but I did say 'context is everything'
@AndrewStacey lol, so you suggest "couple" ?
Wow, tikz has become, like, really popular.
@tohecz As Joseph says, context is everything. What's the sentence?
5:16 PM
At least judging by questions here.
@AndrewStacey To me, a triplet is something with three states, so a doublet is one with two and a singlet is something with a single state, e.g. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublet_%28physics%29
Though Microsoft Office is probably still more popular.
(it's in maths, thing of it like this: "Poset is a couple (X,<) where X is abritrary set and < is a partial order") (this example sounds silly, but you wouldn't understand my real example)
@tohecz pair, definitely pair.
@tohecz arbitrary
5:17 PM
@FaheemMitha I know, my common typo
@AndrewStacey pair was my other suggestion :-)
@JosephWright Ah, also a design tag … Thanks, I just was unsure, whether you weren’t aware of my comment or disagreed.
@tohecz "A poset is a pair (X,<) where X is a set and < is a partial order on that set."
@AndrewStacey That's stupid, I have "pairs" everywhere for something completely different
@tohecz Then change your something completely different!
5:19 PM
@AndrewStacey no way. Everybody knows that transducer recognizes pairs of words!
@Speravir I'll add a note to my todo list for datatool
@tohecz Everyone except me, that is. Okay, use "ordered pair". Then it's clear you mean the set theoretic meaning.
@tohecz If they are two-element sequences, then set-theoretically that's the same structure as your poset.
@Speravir No problem. The 'issue' is not an issue, as it's an ionization equation, so 'by-design' seems best.
@StephanLehmke I know that. However, I'm sorry but I prefer finding another word for it over using the same word twice causing a confusion.
Imagine a sentence "... is a pair (f,g) where f is a map from pair of words onto ... and g is a map from pairs of a word and a letter onto complex numbers"
5:22 PM
@tohecz The point is, the whole mathematical world calls a two-element sequence (or tuple) a "pair"...
@StephanLehmke the whole world calls natural numbers numbers, still, we call them letters ;) (well, sometimes...)
@tohecz Well, as with "poset", nobody keeps you from calling a specific kind of pair something else. But the abstract mathematical structure is called "pair".
@tohecz You can define a "letter" to be a natural number, but not the other way round.
@tohecz Then say "A poset is a (set-theoretic) pair (X,<) .." or "A poset is an ordered pair (X,<) ..".
@ Linux/MacOSX/cygwin users: Does bash file_without_ext work correctly, if file_without_ext is actually a perl file? I speak of tex.stackexchange.com/a/82352/9237 Want to improve it – there are other issues, too, like an unknown \FancyHook, but want to ping @hpesoj626 first.
@AndrewStacey which both sound stupid from the very beginning. All my pairs are oredered! And everybody would freak out after seeing "set theory".
Well, thank you everybody, but it seems that I can't get more help with this.
5:28 PM
@tohecz You are creating a lot of false friends. Everybody would assume letters to form a finite set, as this is a basic assumption of mathematical logic or recursion theory. You are making it intentionally hard for mathematicians to enter your field by using non-intuitive names for everything.
@Speravir I think if the file has execute permissions (+x), the shebang indicates the interpreter directive.
@StephanLehmke I don't call all natural numbers "letters", and I'm not creating this terminology, I'm only using it (this was created some 50 years ago)
@tohecz By whom?
@StephanLehmke Renyi, to name one
@tohecz You aren't being fair! You've given us a standard mathematical definition (a poset) and then told us you want to use alternate words. We're trying to make suggestions that we would still recognise as being equivalent to the standard one. If your intended audience is a very specific one then it's difficult for us to make reasonable suggestions without more information.
5:31 PM
Binary representations are words over alphabet of digits - i.e. natural numbers. Since they are words, people call these numbers "letters".
@AndrewStacey Well, originally, I asked for a synonym to "pair", and I was satisfied by the answer... what is not fair with that?
@tohecz It was a bizarre answer! "Doublet"!
@AndrewStacey I don't argue with you on this. But don't tell me I'm not being fair if I try to explain myself...
@tohecz Can I find anything from him online? I find only book order links.
@AndrewStacey I was asked for something for two items related to a triplet, for which doublet makes sense to me :-)
@tohecz Uh, also digits are usually a finite set...
5:34 PM
Can we call n-tuple? :)
A non-integer representation uses non-integer numbers as the radix, or bases, of a positional numbering system. For a non-integer radix β > 1, the value of :x=d_n\dots d_2d_1d_0.d_{-1}d_{-2}\dots d_{-m} is :x=\beta^nd_n + \cdots + \beta^2d_2 + \beta d_1 + d_0 + \beta^{-1}d_{-1} + \beta^{-2}d_{-2} + \cdots + \beta^{-m}d_{-m}. The numbers di are non-negative integers less than β. This is also known as a β-expansion, a notion introduced by and first studied in detail by . Every real number has at least one (possibly infinite) β-expansion. There are applications of β-expansions in coding th...
@tohecz My "not fair" refers to "Well, thank you everybody, but it seems that I can't get more help with this." which reads a bit dismissively (I'm sure it's not intended that way). If you really, really don't want to use "pair" then leave it out altogether. After all, you've given us two objects to it's obviously a pair! "A post consists of (X,<) where X is a set and < a partial order on X"
@PauloCereda Ah, you may be right. BTW “shebang”: In light of your our recent problems I found this a funny accident (look on the [bang] path):
Path: hamster.speravir.my-fqdn.de!eternal-september.org!mx04.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!news.albasani.net!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Paulo Roberto Massa Cereda <cereda.paulo@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.tex
Subject: French translation of arara [any help is appreciated]
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 07:31:44 -0200
Organization: albasani.net
@JosephWright Next you'll be telling him to use a singlet.
@PauloCereda That did cross my mind, but as I'm not a mathematician I suspect I'd be using it incorrectly
5:35 PM
@AndrewStacey I more wanted to end the discussion before we really start to argue over things. I need to "sleep out" of it and find a good solution tomorrow.
@AndrewStacey Makes perfect sense to me :-)
@PauloCereda As in "Who ya gonna call? n-tuple"?
@PauloCereda 2-tuple? :D
@tohecz Okay, that's fine. Gotta run to Germany anyway.
@PauloCereda: Means that I got your posting from eternal-september.org.
5:36 PM
@AndrewStacey Quite a run!
@StephanLehmke with the stress on the word usually (well, they are finite in my case, I only wanted to point out that no terminology is really so strange)
@tohecz That page does not have the word "letter". And digits form a finite set.
@JosephWright I might take you up on that 1700GMT help!
@Speravir :)
@AndrewStacey I second this suggestion.
5:37 PM
@AndrewStacey epic solo follows :)
@JosephWright I think I've had to restart the entire extraction process.
@StephanLehmke yeah, that page does not have it, you're right. Because it does not treat the combinatorial aspect of the problem. I don't think I can find anything better now.
@AndrewStacey Beware of Marco, he travels at lightspeed. :)
@AndrewStacey Cantor is to blame anyway...
@tohecz twople
@StephanLehmke OMG
5:39 PM
@StephanLehmke two people? :D
@tohecz That would be twoppl. You have to mind the details in mathematic language ;-)
@Speravir I might give it a try with ES later. :)
@StephanLehmke yes, you have ...
I'm probably just tired. I had a 4hour discussion with my supervisor and I've written almost 5 pages of math text today...
@tohecz I've not followed completely the discussion. Languages are not logical. In Italian, "paio" (pair) is an unordered pair just like "coppia" (couple). The former can be used in a wider context than the latter. For instance we can say "tra un paio di mesi" but not "tra una coppia di mesi" (in a couple of months). Both can be used only for things or beings that are of the same kind ("coppia" means also "husband and wife").
We lack a single word that conveys the idea of two objects but in a specific order. So we need to say "coppia ordinata" in math (not "paio ordinato", which doesn't make sense: a "paio" is always unordered).
@egreg I don't say they are logical, I just wanted a good synonym to "pair", that's all ;)
5:49 PM
@tohecz IMHO the best synonym is "pair". :P
@egreg yeah, but that means I'll probably have to reformulate something, which I will do tomorrow.
@egreg or I will change $(f,g)$ into $(f,g,P)$ and get a triple, yay!
@tohecz You can also say "A set {{f},{f,g}}" ;-)
@PauloCereda ok: I'll do it tomorrow :) unfortunately now I should leave. But, why you don't provide a Graphviz one?
@AndrewStacey (hug)
@ClaudioFiandrino I'm terrible at GraphViz. :P
5:55 PM
@StephanLehmke see this comment:
29 mins ago, by tohecz
@AndrewStacey which both sound stupid from the very beginning. All my pairs are oredered! And everybody would freak out after seeing "set theory".
anyways, I gotta go too. I have to ride 10 km on a bike and do some shopping today.
@tohecz How long does that take you to ride 10km?
@tohecz Are you training for something or is that just your means of exercise?
@JG usually half an hour in the Parisian evening traffic
@tohecz That is beautiful that you get to do that in Paris
@JG excercise meaning saving 1.27 EUR
@tohecz oh instead of taking the subway!
6:07 PM
@JG yes
Huh, so we have a new room?
@Canageek huh?
@Canageek it has the good old number 41, doesn't it?
@tohecz No, 6395, QA TeX
@Canageek Apparently the room owner got frustrated to see that we talk about everything here (see some old messages from yesterday). I'm surprised to see that room too.
6:12 PM
@PauloCereda Who is the room owner?
@Canageek user with 57 rep I think
@PauloCereda I can see the upside of it though. A bit less intimidating as a new user.
@tohecz No, not this user.
6:13 PM
@PauloCereda Yeah, not a chance, "member for 5 months"
@Canageek The question is, IMHO, we are not a TeX helpdesk (see the messages, you'll understand better). The offtopic talk has nothing to do with it. Asking one or two quick things here is okay, but real questions should go to the main site instead.
@PauloCereda ok, I saw that this one has (probably) the last post there? (I didn't enter the room at all actually)
@PauloCereda Yeah, not like what some users do here a lot recently. It takes much more time to answer a question in a chat, because the questions are poorly stated here.
@tohecz Indeed. :)
@Canageek My thoughts exactly. :) After all, we are here as a community. :)
well, I gotta go, so see ya!
@tohecz See ya, Tom! :)
6:30 PM
@JosephWright Will need your help. This downloading is not working out.
Well, I've finally realised what's causing the problem in tex.stackexchange.com/questions/82399/… but it seems a bit of a non-answer to just say "transparent gradient shading isn't supported". Anyone know if there's anyway of adding transparency to commands like \pgfdeclareverticalshading?
@JG: I saw you had problems with MiKTeX Package Manager. Did you try to synchronize (menu “Repository”)?
@Speravir What does that mean?
@JG It freshes up, which install packages are available in the actual set MikTeX repository. You can change it under the same menu. It compares also with the already installed packages.
6:46 PM
@GarbageCollector Oh my! :)
@PauloCereda oh my ghost?
@JG: Usually it is done automatic, but sometimes this does not work.
@Speravir Mechanically, what should I click on?
@PauloCereda I've added arara to my list of links on my latex resources page dickimaw-books.com/latexresources.html#otherapps :-)
@JG Open the menu “Repository” …
6:50 PM
@NicolaTalbot awww thanks. /blushes :)
I really don't know what to say, thank you very much. :)
@PauloCereda Now I've just got to work out how to use it :-)
@NicolaTalbot :)
@Speravir Where is that? Under update? Package Manager?
@Nicola: Joseph asked me to give a talk about arara via Skype in the UK-TUG meeting. The video is far from didactic, I'm afraid. :(
@JG Oh, I speak all the time of the Package Manager, since you claimed, you had problems with it.
6:59 PM
6! that gets 6 stars? I wonder how many points I get if I implemented it in tikz??
@Speravir Ok, I found the work repos?
@DavidCarlisle Why do you not like tikz?
@DavidCarlisle I probably know about 1% of Latex as you do, but tikz is something I kind of know and very much like.
@JG I don't like or not like it, it's just that I have never used it and don't know anything about it (which gives @PeterGrill on average 100 points a day head start on tikz answers:-)
@JG ???
@Speravir Yes, I found the option repository. What should I do? Change package repository?
@PauloCereda Oh, that's just reminded me I haven't finished watching them yet! (One thing drives out another, as Barliman Butterbur said.)
7:04 PM
@JG First try to synchronize, then the installation of the 3 latex3-bundels (all start with “l3”).
@NicolaTalbot :)
@DavidCarlisle tikz is clearly a superstar
@DavidCarlisle I tried your solution
A: Programming TeX macros so that they output instructions to rerun the compilation

David CarlisleTaking the posted example, adding the following check seems to work \documentclass{article} \usepackage{amsmath} \usepackage{tikz} \usetikzlibrary{calc,shapes} \makeatletter \AtEndDocument{% \let\oldpgfsyspdfmark\pgfsyspdfmark \def\pgfsyspdfmark#1#2#3{% \expandafter\let\expandafter\tmp\csnam...

However, auctex ignores the message. Do you know how one could convert it to a message that auctex might notice?
@FaheemMitha well I've got a tikz-pgf pfgf badge mostly for answering "how do you do this in tikz" questions with answers using picture mode:-)
@DavidCarlisle For example?
@FaheemMitha easiest way is to alter the text of the message to be exactly one that auctex does recognise eg the latex labels have change message, probably not that much harder way, add a bit more emacs lisp to auctex
7:15 PM
@DavidCarlisle So, literally just change the message? Ok, I'll try.
@DavidCarlisle Tikz is not that hard. You could pick up a working knowledge of it in a few days, probably.
A: How to put text in an existing figure/image (maybe with tikz?)

David CarlisleNo doubt you can use TikZ but if you just want to overlay text you don't need any extra packages at all \begin{picture}(100,100) \put(0,0){\includegraphics{....}} \put(10,10){hello} \end{picture} will write "hello" over your image.

@DavidCarlisle Nice and simple.
@Speravir It says Host not found
@JosephWright Hi!
@JG Then go into “Change Repository", and after that try again.
@DavidCarlisle I learned everything I know about tikz from Joseph and posts here.
@Speravir There are 3 options to choose from. Which shoudl I choose?
@Speravir from internet?
7:24 PM
@JG Yes, in a second step you have to choose the mirror.
@Speravir yes, which do i pick?
@JG All mirrors I get have recent updates.
@Speravir but don't i have to pick one
@Speravir are you saying to pick any 'ole on?
@JG No, you can choose only one server, which one is your choice. I would tend to one in my “neighboorhood”, and if there are problems, the next.
@Speravir I got a connection error with th eone I chose.
@Speravir ok, so far next one is working
7:31 PM
@GarbageCollector you really want to know an answer? (well, my answer...)
@tohecz about armpits?
@JG yes I learnt most of the tex I know from answering questions on comp.text.tex last millennium. If I wanted to learn tikz I'd probably start by answering questions here using tikz...
@JG yes. Any problem with that?
@DavidCarlisle that is very impressive that you learned that way!
@DavidCarlisle Tried it. Didn't work. Bummer.
7:33 PM
@Speravir might it take awhile?
@JG Ask @Peter about it.
@tohecz: Welcome back, Tom! :)
@JG well I read the tex book from start to finish as well, which helps.
@PauloCereda Welcome!
7:35 PM
@DavidCarlisle I cannot understand tex books or tex documentation and I can even program a little bit in it
@FaheemMitha well unless things have changed in the last 20 years, auctex used to just search in the log for that string. I may look later....
@JG Depends of the size of the packages, what you want to do and how good is the connection. A full installation takes the first time veery loooong. :-) Later the weekly or monthly installation of new packages usually not so long.
@Speravir ok, done with that step! what is next?
@DavidCarlisle Ok, turns out you need to add "LaTeX warning:" in front. Then it works.
Pretty silly, really. You'd think it could do better.
@Speravir A connection attempt failed because the connected party did not properly respond after a period of time, or established connection failed because connected host has failed to respond.
7:38 PM
@FaheemMitha it's a balancing act if it makes the match too loose it can get false result matching \typeouts and things that are not real latex warnings. One reason why we standardised those prefixes in latex2e was that systems like auctex could look for them and reliably distinguish system warnings and errors from general guff in the log file
@FaheemMitha Is the arrow problem solved? I'm really thinking that it's a bug but didn't have time to check the arrow code.
@Speravir Couldn't connect to server is the next error message.
Is this on topic, bibtex related but.... tex.stackexchange.com/questions/82454/…
@JosephWright Did you say to get the package l3kernel?
@Speravir Ok, it is downloading!
@Canageek: out of curiosity, do you like any portable gaming system? (I'm thinking of getting a 3DS)
7:51 PM
@PauloCereda Right now, now so much. I don't like the idea of using a stylus to game. Also try it to make sure the 3d works for you, as not all people can see it. And don't let young kids use it.
@percusse If you mean the question I posted, I don't think anyone has answered it yet.
Though there are easy workarounds.
@PauloCereda 3DS does have a much better game library then the Vita though. It depends on what type of games you like. Steve Wozniak carries around an anichent gameboy because he only play tetris, so why blow money and weight on a modern system?
It seems there a tikz developer here. He just posted a comment about the rerunning latex for tikzmark thing.
@FaheemMitha cjorssen and Christian Feuersanger are also the developers.
@DavidCarlisle I didn't realise you were one of the tikz developers. So, can one do any better in this specific (tikzmark case)?
@percusse Yes, cjorssen was who I meant. I was thinking of pointing him to my arrow question, or is that too pushy?
7:54 PM
@Canageek Indeed. :) I'm looking for playing games when I'm travelling, so I thought a DS or 3DS would fit. I'm also not a fan of stylus, but thankfully all games I'm looking for do not require it. :)
@DavidCarlisle I literally just changed the line in your code to
@FaheemMitha They will eventually come to the question as they follow the tags.
\immediate\write\@auxout{LaTeX Warning: Label(s) may have changed. Rerun to get cross-references right.}%
@percusse So, that's a no on the pointing, then? :-)
@Canageek I really prefer the 3DS library. And I'm not sure about how the 3D works, but I think it's better to get the 3DS, since it also plays DS games. ;)
@Canageek: thanks for the insight, I might get one. :)
@JosephWright Is it 1700 GMT?
7:56 PM
@FaheemMitha No, no, sorry, you can do that but it won't speed up the process as they are already working on everything :)
@JG Give him a few minutes, probably tea time. :)
@PauloCereda Yeah, check out the library first. If you want older games you can get an old Gameboy Advance, SP or a DS really cheaply online.
@JG What can I do for you?
@PauloCereda There are some good games though. I think there are good entries in the Fire Emblem and *wars (Advance Wars, etc) series on it
@JosephWright :)
7:59 PM
and probably some good RPGs
@StefanKottwitz HII!!!!!!!!!
@Canageek Yep, you read my mind. :)

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