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12:19 AM
@YannisRizos My deep dark secret is that I love all these NC questions with a passion. - I actually thought that was the case, and I thought that was why many times you were almost looking to give borderline questions the benefit of the doubt (a good thing).
1 hour later…
1:45 AM
@JimG. Yeah, I wouldn't really discuss my actual deep dark secrets in chat, would I? ;P
2:40 AM
^^^ Seems like a well-meaning user, but quite frankly all four of his questions seem better suited for pm.stackexchange.com.
Hi, I asked a question here: programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/170660/…, which was closed. I'm trying to understand what is important for open source developers to learn about open source that researchers could help them with - how can I formulate this as a question suitable for SE?
@AronLindberg let me think about how that question can be improved, it may take me a bit, I'm quite tired.
@WorldEngineer My intention is to figure out what "social/behavioral problems" are on the minds of open source developers/project managers/community managers. That way I can make sure that the academic research I engage in, is relevant to members of this community.
@AronLindberg like use us in a study?
@WorldEngineer "use you in a study"? I don't know what you mean, but I think of it as studying a community of people engaged in a specific set of practices leading to usable code. Is a researcher, I am trying to understanding how this community works, what practices are used.
2:53 AM
@AronLindberg I'd recommend looking at journals covering open source software development or programming psychology. Maybe talk to some large OSS projects. This site isn't a good example. Many of us are not OSS people.
@WorldEngineer I already know what the academic literature on open source thinks are important questions. I also want to understand what practitioners in this community thinks are important questions
@AronLindberg that's polling, it doesn't work by default in the Q&A portion of the site.
@WorldEngineer I understand that - that's why I am asking here for ideas on how to reframe the question. Thanks for your suggestions.
4 hours later…
7:22 AM
[promo] If you're learning Lojban, or want to speak a machine-parsable unambiguous language (obxkcd), please help this Area 51 proposal come to life.
Lojban Language & Usage

Proposed Q&A site for students, teachers, and linguists covering all aspects of the Lojban language from grammar to word usage. Lojban is a machine-parsable, constructed spoken language with a community of around two thousand people.

Currently in definition.

3 hours later…
10:23 AM
Q: Does a programmer really need college?

Dfranc3373I am currently a junior in college, however I have had multiple jobs programming since high school. Currently I work programming at a company part time using many different languages that I have learned the past few years. I recently sat down with a advisor and discovered with the classes I have...

Misread this as Does a programmer really need coffee?
I'm currently half-way through my morning cup thereof.
2 hours later…
12:11 PM
@YannisRizos This is currently the most active question on p.se
Q: Why it is necessary to to test my iPhone app on actual iPhone device

NSSI developed one application for iPhone and now I want it on App Store. So many my iOS geek friends told me to test it on actual device i.e. on iPhone. So I wonder that why it is necessary to to test my iPhone app on actual iPhone device though they (Apple) have given "simulator" which is near ab...

makes you want to just roll you eyes at the asker... Real world testing is 101 shit.
This is not a question that should ever come from a "professional"
12:29 PM
@Morons Heh, I got both notifications, for your Meta question and your ping here, at exactly the same time. Was a bit confusing at first.
1:15 PM
@Morons simulator vs real device testing isn't that "101" to me. In one of my past projects, an important part of commercial success was a careful balancing between simulator and device testing (which essentially boils down to permanently re-asking questions like why on device?)...
...thing is, simulator testing is much MUCH cheaper and much easier for automation. If one blindly sticks to on-device-only, their releases will be substantially later and more expensive than those of competitors
@Morons In regards to your meta question, that line in the FAQ is the programmers Tag Line. I've made a suggestion in the past to change it, but it got heavily downvoted and closed as "not-constructive"
Q: Programmers tag line is misleading. Can we rephrase it?

RachelI think the Programmers tag line is misleading when mixed with our site name, and that it implies on first glance that the site is about "Programmers [interested in conceptual questions about software development]". Since the tag line is a summary of the site for the SE site description, search ...

1:37 PM
@gnat Your question about "HOW MUCH device testing" is needed is entirely different than "IS device testing" Needed
@Rachel How do we know if the asker is a "Professional"? . If that is the case, than i go back to my original thinking of just dropping the word..
@Morons I don't think we should have to know... the site is for professional programmers, so if the question is related to professional software development, its on topic :)
We don't require that the question asker be a professional programmer, only that the question itself be relevant to professional programmers
@Rachel Can you give an example of a question that would be relevant to programmers but not to professional programmers?
I simply don't see any distinction here..
Its easier to think of it the other way around. For example, programmers who program for a hobby instead of professionally may not be interested in the software development life cycle, unit testing, version control, team dynamics, etc
@Morons sure. "IS device testing needed would be a useless yes/no question with equally useless answer yes. Work starts when one asks why, picking the reasons to choose between on-device and simulator testing. That's what I meant when I wrote "Why it is necessary..." isn't that 101
1:54 PM
@gnat lets agree to disagree. :)
We don't want "only professional-level questions", but we do want all questions to be relevant to professional programmers
@Rachel actually we only want professional level questions.
@YannisRizos In that case, you should update the FAQ to clarify that, as I don't think its stated anywhere
@Rachel Nah, it's pretty clear as it is.
@Rachel That's my point, is no question that is relevant to a professionals but not a hobbist. (hence that would off topic)
1:56 PM
Programmers — Stack Exchange is a site for professional programmers...
@YannisRizos Right, professional programmers. Not "professional questions"
@Rachel That doesn't make any sense.
"Programmers — Stack Exchange is a site for professional programmers who are interested in getting expert answers on conceptual questions about software development."
the site is for professional programmers interested in getting expert answers
Nowhere does it say the site is for professional questions
@Rachel Come on, don't pull this crap with your weird definitions again...
Because questions can't be professional...
People are professionals.
1:58 PM
@Rachel We dropped the "Expert" questions but not for answers?
Questions have answers that require education and/or experience.
We won't check anyone's credentials at the door, but the site is for professionals. Everyone who participates is expected to act like a professional, even if they are not.
Yes, and ask professional level questions
"Professional Programmers" = Someone who programs for a living.

"Interested in getting expert answers" = Asking an expert
Meaning if you program for a living, come here and ask a question to get an answer from an expert
It doesn't say you have to ask "professional-level questions"
@Rachel When did anyone say it's about expert questions?
2:00 PM
5 mins ago, by Yannis Rizos
@Rachel actually we only want professional level questions.
if the question can't get answers relevant to professional programmers it will die as off-topic. As far as I can tell current FAQ wording covers that sufficiently, there's no need to add formal requirements for questions
@Rachel Your point being?
Q: Removing "expert" from the site description?

Rachel Programmers - Stack Exchange is for expert programmers who are interested in conceptual questions on software development. Can we consider removing the word "expert" from our site description? I've seen a few meta question that quote our FAQ description, and I feel it gives the wrong impr...

@YannisRizos That's not in the FAQ
I say we put the word "Expert" back in!!! But also leave Professional!!
2:02 PM
@Rachel Professional level questions == Thoroughly researched questions, no one ever said expert questions, stop making stuff up. The question might be trivial, but you are required to put some effort in it regardless.
@YannisRizos check out think.. it was once there , then removed
@Morons To be fair, that question was back from the site's early days when the community and scope were different
@YannisRizos @Rachel stop bickering, you guys are like and old married couple ..
@Morons Old?
@YannisRizos I don't see anything in the FAQ stating your question has to be something that's been thoroughly researched either :)
@Morons lol hey there's nothing wrong with speaking your mind or disagreeing with someone
2:04 PM
8 mins ago, by Yannis Rizos
Programmers — Stack Exchange is a site for professional programmers...
Right, the site is for programmers who program for a living
Either you are a professional, which means you aren't lazy and you don't ask for free help without first trying to solve your own problem, or you are not.
...also the requirement is in the "how to ask" guidelines, and iterated all over Meta.
@Rachel What, now I need to explain what professional means?
I'll start a meta later, i'll ask people to vote and comment with the "professional standard" in mind
2:08 PM
That sentence just screams the "elitist" attitude I've come to hate on this site :p Its like saying that asking for help is lazy and unprofessional
But I'm done arguing with you, I have work to do
I'm not going to change your mind so oh well

a: of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession
b: engaged in one of the learned professions
c (1): characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2): exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
like every thing else we will let the community come to a census on exactly what that is (over time, by voteing)
> characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession - businesslike manner in the workplace...
From the top google link (wikipedia) "A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialized set of tasks and to complete them for a fee."
@YannisRizos that's why i only asked 1 question.. I'm not lazy :)
2:10 PM
I think most people consider that the definition of "professional programmers" when they read our tag line
A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialized set of tasks and to complete them for a fee. The traditional professions were doctors, engineers, lawyers, architects and commissioned military officers. Today, the term is applied to nurses, accountants, educators, scientists, technology experts, social workers, artists, librarians (information professionals) and many more. The term is also used in sports to differentiate amateur players from those who are paid—hence "professional footballer" and "professional golfer". Many companies include the word professional in the...
@YannisRizos in meta you said "The definition of professional is different for everyone"
Read the "definition" section
A: Should we change the Description of this Site in the FAQ?

Yannis RizosHow about we start enforcing our standards instead? You've dropped a question in chat that you clearly feel isn't up to our standards, yet you didn't vote to close it, flag it, or down vote it. Why do you expect other people to enforce our standards if you don't?

@Morons The dictionary definition is the same and it's pretty simple.
How each one of us interprets that, well...
2:11 PM
"different for everyone"
as is no 2 people share the same definition.
@Morons Ok come on, now you are being silly. Of course I didn't mean the dictionary definition...
> Reasonable work morale and motivation. Having interest and desire to do a job well as holding positive attitude towards the profession are important elements in attaining a high level of professionalism.
i know :)
@Rachel From the same wikipedia article you quoted...
I'm just saying, if you want to outlaw non-professional-level questions, then say so in the FAQ. The current wording of our site description and faq reads to me

"This site is for people who program for a living and who want to get an expert answer about conceptual software development".
That doesn't translate to "this site is for professional-level questions about conceptual software development" in most cases
@Rachel Perhaps it doesn't translate for you. But now you know.
Also all our requirements for questions, "professional level" or not are spelled out in the "how to ask" guidelines that all users are prompted to read before they ask their first question.
The two documents together clearly explain what the site is about. To people who actually read them. Most people don't, unfortunately.
2:20 PM
@YannisRizos Sorry to break it to you, but the How to Ask section of our FAQ says nothing of the sort
@Rachel That's not the how to ask I'm talking about
That's "How do I ask", not "How to ask", and I never said "How to ask" is in the FAQ...
2 mins ago, by Yannis Rizos
The two documents together clearly explain what the site is about. To people who actually read them. Most people don't, unfortunately.
Two documents...
Also on an unrelated note, our FAQ states:

"If your question would be of interest to …

Professional and enthusiast programmers, ask on Stack Overflow."
@Rachel Yes, Stack Overflow caters to enthusiasts. We don't.
@YannisRizos what two documents? I only know of the faq, which does not specify that questions have to be professional level
2:23 PM
@YannisRizos to Rachels point, the 2 sections should match
@Rachel Please cut the crap with "professional level". The site is for professionals, that's enough. If you act as a professional and do your due diligence prior to asking, you'll be fine. If not, oh well...
@YannisRizos I'm only trying to make a point because of your comment
30 mins ago, by Yannis Rizos
@Rachel actually we only want professional level questions.
The site does not say Programmers is only for professional-level questions. If it should, update the FAQ
@Rachel Yes, I was using the terminology you were using. Sorry about that.
@Rachel No it shouldn't. Because you're still under the impression that professional level means expert. It doesn't.
Well my point was that "Why it is necessary to to test my iPhone app on actual iPhone device" is something that is relevant to professional programmers, and should not be closed as not meeting the "professional standard" of this site like Morons said.... thats what we were talking about in the first place :p
It just means don't be lazy and do some research prior to asking. Trivial questions, even homework, are perfectly fine provided you tried at least a little to solve your own damn problem, as a professional should.
@Rachel I never said anything about that question.
2:27 PM
I got it now, you just saw something and responded without reading further to find out the context of what was being said :)
And here I was thinking you were trying to join in on the existing conversation about that question....
@Rachel That SHOULD be closed
and not meeting a min level of cpomlexity
@Morons And I would disagree :)
There's nothing wrong with disagreeing opinions, just don't hold it against the person or try to force your opinion on them
I'd rather be surrounded by people who disagreed with me than those who agree with me anyways
I learn more that way
anything that thought in a high school comp-sci class or college intro class should be off topic as too low level
@Rachel Hm, if that's the case, may I ask why you still haven't learned and parade that closed Meta question of yours?
@YannisRizos Because I still strongly feel that the site's tag line is misleading when combined with the site's name
And I'm not going to change my opinion on that just because people disagree with me unless someone offers me proof otherwise
2:30 PM
All my meta questions get downvoted!
@Rachel Do not change your opinion. Stop spamming your Meta questions everywhere.
@Morons I don't see anything about that in the FAQ though
@YannisRizos Well they're the ones that I can find the easiest, and since he was proposing a change to the tag line I thought I'd bring it up since it seemed relevant
Different thinks. I respect your opinion, and I love it that you don't give up. But after a point, you got to realize that enough is enough.
I link to my -12 Meta question in my profie
@YannisRizos And you have to realize that the meta opinion is not necessarily the community opinion
2:31 PM
@Morons The pledge?
i kept to it too :)
@Rachel Consensus is not majority vote.
Take a look at what happens to the "featured" questions that show up on the main page. Many times my answeres are downvoted initially by the meta crowd, then get a steady stream of upvotes as the regular community users see them
21 secs ago, by Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Consensus is not majority vote.
but some moderators delete my comments! there by making me a lier!
2:32 PM
@Morons Where?
it really boils my blood!
If i look at my downvotes.. i don't see my comments..
let me check
btw suspending a mod doesn't work, we can un-suspend ourselves.
i take it back.. the comments are there
> Why not a database? – Michael-O
> isn't a database an internet thing? –
3 messages moved from The Assembly
Q: File Handling Alternative in Java

Umer FarooqI was wondering does java provides any way to implement programs stated below without file handling. Lets say I want to make a program for hospital patients record or a phonebook in which I can add, delete and edit patient name, NIC number and phone number.. Making such a program with file handl...

I know it's from that other site, but wow ...
@C.Ross Well nowadays that everything's on the cloud, a database is an internet thing ;P
2:39 PM
@C.Ross lol I think the DBAs on DBA.SE would get a kick out of that :)
@Rachel That's an "enthusiast level" question :P
on a perhaps more serious note, I really don't want Programmers to turn into what SO is today (quality wise)...
we get a fair share of crap, but nothing compares to what the more active SO tags get...
This is too long to read, consider revising, there's a lot of irrelevant stuff in there. You might miss good answers because people won't bother to read all that. — Yannis Rizos 4 hours ago
He completely ignored me. 56 views later, not a single upvote. People should learn not to ignore me... It's a good question, but it's hidden under tons of crap.
what question?
Q: MVVM - how to make creating viewmodels at runtime less painfull

Mr HappyI apologize for the long question, it reads a bit as a rant, but I promise it's not! I've summarized my question(s) below In the MVC world, things are straightforward. The Model has state, the View shows the Model, and the Controller does stuff to/with the Model (basically), a controller has no ...

actually I'm not so sure there's a good question in there, I only scanned through it. It seems that there might be a good question in there...
he did a summary.
@Rachel btw, keep in mind that I have some vague idea if people visit the FAQ. I can't know if they read it or not, just if they visited. We've argued the FAQ countless times, but most 1 rep users (that would mostly benefit from reading it) don't even visit it...
a lot of our FAQ discussions and efforts to make it better are completely irrelevant if people don't even bother to visit the damn thing.
2:47 PM
@YannisRizos Fair enough, but t hen we're back to the point that we should make it clearer to newcomers who/what this site is for. The ideas of changing the site name or clarifying the tag line have been turned down as not necessary...
@YannisRizos Nobody read the FAQ, a public web site is supposed to deigned in such a way that no instructions are needed.. (I think i said this before)
@Morons Not to mention FAQ = Frequently Asked Questions, not "Read this before posting"
who goes to a website and thinks.. let me first read the faq?
@Morons No, a lot of people read it. But after they get their first question closed.
@Morons I do. Honestly. RTFM, always RTFM.
perhaps we should put it in the TOS, so people have to read when registering.
do you also read the TOS?
2:49 PM
@Morons You know we have a TOS on Programmers right? People have to check a checkbox prior to asking their first question...
Nobody reads those things
yes, i know, but we should add the FAQ to it.
You really should have a "New User? Click here and read before posting a question"
we do...
when you click ask..
@Morons Where?
2:50 PM
@Rachel We have that, that's what I'm saying.
@Rachel It shows up before you ask your first question.
there is a little help box off to the right
It's in the area usually reserved for ads and unrelated content. Its easily missed
@Morons No. We have an actual TOS. It covers all the screen and won't let you continue if you don't indicate that you've read it.
Also, you should directly specify "new user", because people immediately know you're talking to them. They're a new user and are interested in new-user-specific content
@YannisRizos Seriously, I doubt anyone reads those things. All they do is interfere with what you're trying to do, so people try to bypass them as fast as possible
Also, the "how to answer" guidelines cover all the answer textarea when you try to answer for the first time...
@Rachel I know. But what else can we do?
We already have something we invite them to read before asking, and they skip it. What else?
2:53 PM
Q: Creating a page specifically designed for new users, and link to it at the top of the faq?

RachelI was recently reading the Skeptics.SE FAQ, and one of the top lines of their faq is: New users (even users familiar with the StackExchange format) should read our introduction to the site before posting The link listed goes to a very newbie-friendly meta post which explains what SE is, h...

@Rachel And put it where?
That's what the TOS is.
At the top of the FAQ
Maybe we should email them a tip of the day for 7 days after signing up
And perhaps somewhere on the screen for new users
@Morons too spammy
im kidding!
2:54 PM
@Rachel 1) people don't visit the faq prior to asking, 2) people skip the TOS.
You can put anything in there and most people will ignore it.
Basically you need something simple and short to catch their attention. Something they'll notice and immediately think "this applies to me, I want to see it". Something like "New User? Click [here]"
I know! I know! we should make them pass a test on the FAQ! if they have a negative rep!
Don't hide stuff in a wall of text, or along the sidebar where ads normally are
@Morons Heh, I wonder if you'd pass that test ;P
2:55 PM
@YannisRizos I'd pass the test, but I wouldn't answer truthfully :)
i don't have to! i don't ask questions!
@Rachel There's a dumbed down version of the about page on AskPatents...
@YannisRizos I'm talking about something even less than that. Something that you can't help but read the entire thing when skimming the page
I have better idea!!!
Something that will immediately catch the attention of new users because it will apply directly to them
2:57 PM
@Rachel Something like "If you haven't done any research, don't ask". Small enough? ;P
when people get there question's closed or down voted cover their Icon with a Giant red A!
@YannisRizos Not clear enough, and wouldn't immediately make users think it applies to them
for 2 days!
@Rachel "If you haven't done any research, GTFO" - better?
People always take insults more personally, they'll certainly think GTFO applies to them ;P
@YannisRizos Still takes too long to read and process :)
3:00 PM
in all sirousness, the system is fine, people as stupid question, is gets closed, then they educate themselfs
"New User? Click here" is ultra short, simple, used in many other sites so easily understood, and is pretty much always the first thing I click on when I go to a new site and want to participate
it works, leave it alone,
@Rachel Yeah, they might click, but they won't read anything you put in front of them after they've clicked...
@Morons That's a good policy.
@YannisRizos Actually yes, they will if the content is relevant to new users specifically and not ridiculously long
@Rachel I've already upvoted your MSO question, don't try to convince me.
3:02 PM
We don't need MSO's approval to do something like that on our own you know
@Rachel You mean something like what Skeptics did? Go ahead... And it might even make more sense to host it on the blog instead of Meta.
Because there's a 5 rep requirement to participate on Meta... 1 rep users can read everything, of course, but on the blog they can comment as well.
@YannisRizos As I already said, I'm done with this site unless something changes. I'm happy to voice my opinion and try to help out with change, but I'm not investing any time trying to support, promote, or maintain the site anymore
I originally was going to do something like this a while back....
@Rachel Fair enough. But if you aren't going to contribute positevely, could you please not contribute negatively? Enough with all the complaining and the campaigning...
@YannisRizos I'm not trying to be negative, however I would like to bring about change, so if I see an opportunity that looks like it could head in that direction I'm not going to be silent. Too many people tired of the current site status have left already
@Rachel Too many? Three I know of...
3:08 PM
@YannisRizos Um.... you're one of the more active meta users, you should know many more than that
@Rachel Nope, I only know three who asked for their accounts deleted.
I can think of many names disappear, and recall some meta posts where the users end up with a comment like "I guess this site isnt' for me", or "this is why you're driving users away from your sitee"
Oh I'm not talking about deletion only, I'm talking about quitting
Check out the top beta users from our area51 site: area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/3352/not-programming-related
Most aren't around anymore
@Rachel Yes, but that's true for most sites. People come and go...
@Rachel This isn't going to change, SE will not accept any site with subject subjects.
@Rachel For example I gave up on SO for almost two years.
Not really interested in participating, but I don't hate it as much anymore.
3:11 PM
This place simply isn't the place for conversation
Well look at the user turnover then of the current site
so SE will be, ever.
Look at the number of questions asked by establised users vs new users
Look at comments like this from regular users who particpate:
@RobertHarvey - Thanks for the reminder about why people are leaving this site. — jfrankcarr 2 days ago
Or at the number of questions that get closed/deleted every single day
@Rachel truth be told, if we enforced high level questions only, the higher level the question , the more likely it is to be subjective.
@Rachel what would you change? what CAN change?
@Rachel Hey! We don't close a lot of questions anymore...
Anyway, my point @Rachel is that the scope is not going to change. If anything it will become stricter over time. That's a lost cause, and you're wasting your and everyone else's time over it. We can certainly become a friendlier community, but not by lowering our standards.
3:18 PM
@Morons I would change either the way we communicate with new users (site name, tag line, faq, etc), the encouraged/accepted attitude towards bad questions or new users (for example, see this starred message in dba.se) or change the site scope entirely (and yes, I know the site scope is not going to chnage the way I want)
@Rachel what would you call teh site
for example, you yourself posted a chat comment saying "This is currently the most active question on p.se ...
makes you want to just roll you eyes at the asker... Real world testing is 101 shit.". Its not an encouraging way to promote good questions
FYI: you should check out Crazy on tap
@Morons Software Development. Or Programming since I think that would be more accepted, but then I'd also want to be clear we don't do tech-support
At any rate, it shouldn't be Programmers
@Rachel Hm, but you're the only one who thinks it's a good question. And chat is a bit more casual...
3:21 PM
i made an ad for it way back when ..meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/a/2643/7748
If that comment was posted on the question, you'd be in trouble @Morons
@YannisRizos I'm not saying its good here, I'm saying that users who may post good questions won't post if they think that's the sort of attitutde they'll face from users here. And that it sets an unfriendly tone for the "established users" vs new users
its a good place for general discusstions.
@Rachel What attitude? Chat is deserted ;)
Many people read chat, even if they don't post
3:22 PM
the people here a very respectful to users who post bad questions..
And that sort of attitude is all over the place - meta, comments, chat, etc
you want to enforce niceness?
@Morons Not all of them. It's gotten better since the Summer of Love, but I still frequently see negative comments with no constructive advice
no, I want to stop the attitude of "we're better than you" that I see coming through in comments all over this site
they get flagged and deleted..
Users come here for help, and are often greeted with rudeness and elitism
3:24 PM
no offence but i think you are picking up on something that is just not there
Some people don't view it that way, but many others do
Q: Are rudeness rules necessary or desirable?

Ron MaimonI have been suspended from skeptics recently for "rudeness". I have written the following on physics regarding rudeness rules and rudeness in general: In any human society, whenever a person isn't following natural rules of etiquette, this person is shooting himself or herself in the foot, si...

its down voteing with comments.. I hate that too
but that's it.
K, I'm leaving chat I need to go back to focusing on work
you office is open?
3:26 PM
of course
mine has no power.
been working from home all week with no VPN, or access to critical systems
Unfortunately for me, mine has an emergancy generator. But I live in WNY, not NYC, so we weren't hit hard at all and still have power and stuff
enjoy :)
i have a conf call in 2 min
4:03 PM
@YannisRizos You may want to close this question as something other than a duplicate, and link the locked question in a comment instead. Closing as a duplicate makes it seem like that kind of question is OK because a duplicate exists
@Rachel It's not locked, it's an open question...
Community re-opened it, it's a duplicate, my hands are tied. If I close it as anything else, and he find that open question, I'm in trouble. And he will find it eventually, it's our top question.
Oh ok, I thought it was still locked. Now that you mention it, I seem to recall it getting unlocked so we could keep it up-to-date
@Rachel Yes. And of course the first edit after it was unlocked is completely nonsensical.
> Added link to Jeff Atwood's user page
Yeah, right, you improved the question there buddy...
btw the link is to Jeff's ProgSE profile... I could understand it if it was to his blog, but to the ProgSE profile???
2 hours later…
5:59 PM
wanted to try rep recalc and suddenly discovered that I can't find "trigger" button where i thought it should be http://programmers.stackexchange.com/users/<my id>/<my name>?tab=reputation. Is it just me or it is gone indeed?
hm Recent feature changes... don't mention anything related to removal of rep-recalc button
@gnat I thought that button was only used because reputation was static, and that button went through and got rid of things like deleted questions/answers, deleted user votes, etc
When they switch to having real-time reputation, that button was no longer needed
6:34 PM
@Rachel iirc button was there some time after the change you mention. What bothers me is that I found nothing on MSO regarding its removal. Adding this button is listed in "Recent feature changes..." (dated 2010-12-08) but there's nothing about its removal
Are there any good tech-related forums? I really can't seem to find one.
@gnat you can recalc you rep here .. programmers.stackexchange.com/reputation
@Dynamic crazyontap.com is a general topic forum but the members are all IT
@Morons I've seen it... Don't think it's PG13 :P
we often discuss hi tech topic there.. so you can start a thread on a topic you want to disscuss
its not bad, its not PG13... lots of various opions, but at least the opinions are honest
im a regular there
Ya, I see what you mean... IDK I don't feel extremely comfortable...
6:41 PM
@Dynamic where you a regular on the old JOS board?
@Morons I'm sorry? What's JOS?
i'll take that as a No. :O
@Morons Still curious... what's JOS? :-)
he used to have a forum...
Joel is one of the founders of SE
@Morons Oh! No I never participated in the forum... I read the blog :-)
@Morons I know ;P
6:44 PM
the forum was real good.. it was killed to push its member to SO
well that the going theory.. Joel will never admit to it
@Morons you're the best! thanks for giving the right URL, I suspected that I just forgot the syntax
@Morons Ahhh... makes sense. I don't know. I love Stack Exchange, and it knows it's place, which is a good thing. But I feel like the old forums with strong communities are almost extinct.
COT is a spin off of the an off topic board the Joel had.. and killed few years prior to killing the JOS Board
?Off was killed for legitamiate reasons
Back to my point...
7:08 PM
One of the users there had a decent forum...
i'm trying to find the url for you
Q: simple question in java

AmirHossein H-mIs it possible to have an object that is accessible from static methods in the same class in java? for example: public class RaceDriver { public static void main(String[] args) { SkateRace race = new SkateRace(); Phase1(); } public static void Phase1(){ race.add(...

I'll try to guess - asker is question banned at SO?
its a forum for Consultants.. but you may like it
there always reddit too
3 hours later…
10:18 PM
Bethany Marzewski on November 02, 2012

The Mile High City was buzzing last week as it hosted its first ever Denver Startup Week. With more than 80 events hosted by startups all around the city, the week attracted hundreds of entrepreneurs from the Colorado area. Since our Denver office just opened in August, this was a perfect time for us to get to know some of our new neighbors a little better.

Startup Job Fair

On Tuesday, October 23, after our quick spot on Channel 9 News, we set up shop at the Startup Job Fair to recruit even more awesome talent to our company. After two hours, we brought in nearly 50 resumes—thanks to everyone wh …

1 hour later…
11:31 PM
I don't think there likely are any real good OOP design books which are focussed in PHP. Would it be a valid question to ask if any actually exist? I'm just curious, as when people get their head around good design principles they've generally moved past working in PHP it seems. Though perhaps that's just my bias against php...
@JimmyHoffa that I've no idea
Yannis would probably know but it's a good couple of hours till his usual on time
Me either, makes me wonder.. Would that be a valid question for programmers or rapidly closed as book request?
I'm not polling for books, just looking to hear someone say "Yeah I've seen one, so they do exist"
Then again I guess a question like that can't be answered in the negative so perhaps it's not answerable
@JimmyHoffa Ubermensh and I have this insanity inducing project idea where we built a massive database of programming languages along with ratings and relations for each one, stuff it into a graph visualization setup for display. Included would be lists of relevant books.

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