English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

9:00 PM

Ok, folks, I really have to finish this task, and I can't do it while I'm obsessively checking MSO and chat and whatnot, so have fun and TTYL.

Cerberus

Bye!

This picture is terrible, but fascinating:

Kosmonaut

What a mess

Cerberus

Yeah it's pretty bad. I hope your colleague will find her family.

RegDwight

Hate to say it, but looks a lot like the next 4chan meme.

Where is this? How do the planes come there?

Cerberus

Ah.

Have you ever been on that website?

RegDwight

9:13 PM

Like thrice.

Cerberus

I have heard that it is bad or something.

RegDwight

Not my cup of tea at all.

It's not bad, just don't visit /b.

Cerberus

It is some forum?

Hehe OK. I have no desire to.

RegDwight

Kind of. You just post stuff, and people make jokes about it, and after an hour or so it is deleted. So either a meme is born or not.

Cerberus

Deleted? All old posts are deleted?

RegDwight

9:14 PM

It has many — I dunno what they call them — rooms? categories? channels? And /b is just one of them.

Cerberus

Noted.

RegDwight

There are rather strict rules in most of the categories, but /b is kind of exempt. You can post anything, really. And people do.

At least that's my understanding as an outsider, from what I've gathered on Reddit, Wikipedia, and Spiegel Online in the last four years or so.

psmears

@RegDwight (catching up): the vocative "ya" (يا) is used for both sexes in modern Arabic, but in very formal/classical Arabic there are separate masculine/feminine particles of address: masculine "ayyuha" (أيها) and feminine "ayyatuha" (أيتها).

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight: I didn't know you were on drupal.SE too.

RegDwight

Feb 17 at 19:07, by RegDwight

I'm on all sites 24/7.

Cerberus

9:20 PM

We know.

RegDwight

Jan 28 at 15:27, by RegDwight

@kiamlaluno: just visit my user profile, click on "accounts", and you'll be surprised to learn how many StackExchanges are out there.

@Cerberus Kiamlaluno doesn't, obviously.

Cerberus

@PSmears: Could it be considered the vocative case of the article? Or is there no vocative case in Arabic?

Nooo not The Birds again...

RegDwight

@psmears Thanks. That should be @Kosmonaut, too.

Cerberus

You know what I like most about this chat? That lines can be edited. Is this possible in real life as well? Isn't there some language...?

Kosmonaut

@psmears Interesting, thanks

psmears

9:25 PM

(incidentally phone calls are not as difficult as might be imagined - most stock phrases even in English don't actually mention "you": "Good evening" / "Please may I speak to XXX" / "Who is this?" etc. By the time you've got that out of the way you've hopefully got a better idea of the gender of the person at the other end :)

Kosmonaut

@psmears Of course, and I am sure that native Arabic speakers have a good strategy to deal with this anyway.

But you know, sometimes you can feel confident that the person is one gender, and then be wrong.

There is a guy who works at the front desk whose voice sounds pretty feminine. There was a time when someone came in to talk to him, and they were like, "I spoke to a woman on the phone about this" and he was like, "I remember that, that was me." And the person was like, "no, I definitely was speaking to a woman"

RegDwight

@Cerberus See, this is what I like about this chat. One can just keep goofing around, and every now and then people such as psmears will appear out of Complete Nowhere™ and throw in an exciting bit of knowledge or two.

psmears

@Cerberus: There is no vocative case; the nominative is used when addressing

RegDwight

I saw that, @Kosmonaut.

Kosmonaut

haha

RegDwight

9:30 PM

Mar 7 at 18:16, by RegDwight

Big Russki is watching you.

Kosmonaut

I had to do it — we were talking about what's great about this chatroom and all... I couldn't resist

RegDwight

Well, as long as you don't replace "psmears" with "Robusto", it's okay with me.

Hear that, @Robusto?

I'm dissing you. Yes, you.

Cerberus

@Reg: True; if we didn't have psmearses lying around...

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight I think you have to say it three times to conjure him up instantly.

Cerberus

@Psmears: Ah, I see. The vocative case is pretty useless at any rate.

RegDwight

9:32 PM

@Kosmonaut No, you just have to mention Chicago.

Kosmonaut

Useless!

Cerberus

Oh dear...

RegDwight

Kind of like with you and bagels. Or Fahrenheit.

kiamlaluno

Weren't xyz.stackexchange.com sites supposed to get their own domain?

RegDwight

Fahrenheit sucks even more than NY bagels!

See? Kosmonaut is already here.

Cerberus

9:33 PM

Haha.

Kosmonaut

OMG

psmears

The definite article isn't used with proper names - they're considered definite without it (they even take indefinite case endings, though adjectives agreeing with them take both the article and the definite case endings). Unlike (ancient) Greek, if I remember rightly, which uses the definite article even with people's names...

Cerberus

Poor guy.

psmears

@Cerberus Yep, that's fair :-)

Kosmonaut

RegDwight

9:34 PM

Stack Overflow Blog: Domain Names: The Wrong Question

Posted by Robert Cartaino on October 5th, 2010

Friday night we rolled back the domain name of our first out-of-beta website. After less than 24 hours of existing on the internet, nothingtoinstall.com was reverted to its original public beta name – webapps.stackexchange.com.

We’re sorry for springing this on you at the last minute but – at least at the time – it felt like circumstances didn’t give us much choice.

With deep concerns about domain name choices for the 20+ ongoing public betas and some negative feedback about breaking up the network into smaller domains, we made the snap decision to roll back the name change we had launched barely a day before. We felt that rolling back ASAP was preferable to letting problems grow exponentially through the next week while we discussed and voted and debated. That’s not an excuse; just an explanation. In hindsight, dealing with the community and the repercussions of our decisions should have taken precedence. …

kiamlaluno

Italian does use the definitive article with names, but it is normally considered not correct.

RegDwight

6 hours ago, by RegDwight

Robusto

@RegDwight — What, are you vituperating again?

kiamlaluno

"La Carla, la Michela, la Luisa."

RegDwight

See? Robusto is already here.

Cerberus

9:35 PM

@Psmears: Got it. In Ancient Greek, articles can be used with proper names, but not always. Usage of articles is a bit different from English with any words. I forgot whether there was much of a difference between regular nouns and names concerning articles.

RegDwight

I told you Chicago works.

Kosmonaut

psmears

But if you're addressing someone with an improper noun (!) - such as "sayyid" ("sir") then the article is used in addition to ayyuha/ayyatuha.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut How noble of you to shake my hand.

Kosmonaut

That's how much of a gentleman I am.

"You have won the day, good sir."

psmears

9:37 PM

(Though nobody actually speaks like that in real life!)

hmm, time to go AFK again... bye all!

RegDwight

CU, and thanks for all the bits of knowledge!

Robusto

BTW, you answer the phone in Japanese by saying moshi-moshi.

Cerberus

Bye!

RegDwight

@Robusto I know.

Robusto

Well, goody for you then.

What do you say when you go into a shop?

RegDwight

9:39 PM

It's in Lost in Translation, even. Giovanni Ribisi says it.

Robusto

Unlike you, I do not fetishize Lost In Translation. It's an OK movie, nothing special.

RegDwight

@Robusto No idea about that one.

@Robusto I do not fetishize it. I'm just saying that everyone and his grandma is familiar with moshi-moshi.

This film is but one example.

Kosmonaut

What's the word when you fetishize the notion of fetishes?

RegDwight

RegDwight.

Robusto

Anyway, if the shopkeeper isn't around, you say onegai shimasu.

Kosmonaut

9:42 PM

Nie wieder Fetischismus!

RegDwight

Frieden schaffen ohne Waffeln!

Robusto

And if you really want to sound Japanese, instead of saying arigatou or arigatou gozaimasu for "thank you" try saying sumimasen instead.

Cerberus

Waffeln, really?

Robusto

Sumimasen is how you say excuse me, but it really means "it is not finished" — a very Japanesey way to say thank you, because you are vowing that this favor will be returned.

RegDwight

@Robusto Ha! That one I know.

Cerberus

9:45 PM

Fascinating language.

Robusto

arigatou is overkill in most cases. It literally means, "It is difficult to be ..." which is over the top if someone just hands you a stick of gum or something like that.

Kosmonaut

@Robusto Sounds like Charles Bronson

Robusto

Also learn the uses of doumo and douzo ... great friends, those.

Kosmonaut

►

RegDwight

Learn Japanese in 101 posts with Robusto.

Robusto

9:46 PM

And if you can't think of anything to say, just resort to ee ... ma or sometimes saaaa ...

Kosmonaut

oof, time to go!

This. ain't. ovah.

Robusto

For that you say shitsurei shimasu.

RegDwight

I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missourah.

Cerberus

Bai!

Robusto

"I am being rude."

Kosmonaut

9:48 PM

shit sure shimasu, got it

Robusto

That's "shit sure i shimasu" ...

Kosmonaut

失礼します！

Robusto

Genau.

Ha, someone downvoted this answer. Weird.

1

A: How do I say, "I am willing to relocate", in my CV?

One sentence, two words: "Will relocate."

In spite of my extensive comment, to which the OP replied "Perfect!" No good deed goes unpunished.

RegDwight

@Robusto Should I add insult to injury? It's actually got flagged twice.

Robusto

Huh? You already insult me enough, don't you think?

RegDwight

9:56 PM

I feel comfortable disclosing that, as Robusto can see one of the flags, and the other one is by the Community user, saying "Low answer quality score".

Robusto

Well, it's actually the right answer.

RegDwight

Yup. Won't catch me arguing to the opposite.

Okay, so the OP has responded here:

5

Q: How did Napoleon III coin the term "Latin America"?

The actual term "Latin America" was coined in France under Napoleon III and played a role in his campaign to imply cultural kinship with France, transform France into a cultural and political leader of the area and install Maximilian as emperor of Mexico. — Wikipedia

etymology

Robusto

I don't see the flag for it. I see one for cv writing service.

RegDwight

I think that makes the question off-topic.

@Robusto Yeah sorry, I've dismissed both.

Robusto

Well, thank you.

I don't understand why that got flagged, though. Truly.

RegDwight

10:03 PM

Well, look at all of the downvotes nohat got for nothing and nothing again.

And I'm not even talking about controversial stuff such as less vs fewer.

Robusto

I guess you must have upvoted me as well, cuz it's back to 2.

RegDwight

Just look at this:

26

A: When did it become correct to add an 's' to a singular possessive already ending in 's'?

Since, 1810, forms like James’s (which I will call type A) have generally been more commonly used than forms like James’ (type B), according to my research using the Corpus of Historical American English (COHA). I compared a number of names ending in -s looking for possessive forms with and with...

Robusto

@RegDwight — I never looked at nohat's downvotes.

@RegDwight — Wow. Someone really had to be a dick to downvote that post.

RegDwight

@Robusto Well, now there's a very straightforward way to do so, just check the list under his rep graph.

Robusto

I mean, that answer was about one sugar-plum away from being a complete Christmas dinner.

RegDwight

10:06 PM

Perhaps someone is allergic to Christmas.

Cerberus

It is rather restricted to American...

Robusto

Maybe not even.

Ah, it's them thin-skinned Brits again ... worse than the Russkies sometimes.

RegDwight

@Cerberus But it's certainly not "not useful", which is what the downvote arrow says if you hover over it.

@Robusto Nobody is worse than the Russkies, ever.

Cerberus

I'm not saying that I'd have downvoted it; but that is a definite weakness.

Robusto

@RegDwight — You're so vain.

►

RegDwight

10:11 PM

@Robusto Sony Music Entertainment. Need I say more?

Robusto

Get your country to pay up so you can get teh compleat internetz.

RegDwight

Oh peoples, puhlees. Don't jump on proofreading questions like that. You're creating broken windows.

Robusto

I'm not afraid of you. Your sidekick Martha is long gone.

Anyway, I'll delete it if you want. Hurry and tell me cuz i gots ta go.

RegDwight

@Robusto Nah, leave it up, I can delete it any time anyhow.

But thanks for understanding. TTYL.

RegDwight

10:27 PM

May/should/must I just close this one outright?

0

Q: exchange emails with whomever you want to put me in contact [with]

I realize the "never end a sentence with a preposition" rule is controversial these days, but let's assume for the sake of argument that it should be followed. What is the proper construction of a sentence that has a prepositional phrase inside a prepositional phrase, such as in the title of this...

grammar prepositional-phrase

RD1

10:44 PM

I dunno, but that sentence gives me motion sickness.

Cerberus

It makes me so sick that I must log out.

Well I was going anyway. Bye!

RD1

Buh Bye

RegDwight

CU.

Billare

How do you link text within comments, @RegDwight?

RegDwight

@Billare [Link text](URL).

17

A: How do comments work?

How do comments work? Comments may be attached to questions and answers when a user wishes to comment on the content of the question or answer without adding a new "Answer" of their own. Comments are intentionally short with a maximum of 600 characters, and allow a limited set of markup. URLs...

Billare

10:53 PM

Cool, thank you.

RegDwight

Not at all.

Works for answers (and questions), too, BTW.

Billare

Yeah, I've been stuck behind the "a href" for too long, I'll use it more often from now on.

Actually I appended a link to your recent comment on "up to", check it out.

@ RegDwight 'nother question: Would it be appropriate for me to ask about a Latin phrase that would known to English speakers? For example, would it be a good question to ask, "What is a well-known Latinate phrase for 'who watches the watchmen' known to English speakers", where I'm hoping for a reply like "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

RegDwight

Uff. That's a tough one.

There is a lot of confusion about winged words and quotes in general, on this site.

Billare

Maybe I should just ask you: Do you know a good Latinate phrase that expresses something like "It is not wise to criticize the King", with perhaps an additional "while he's in power"...

RegDwight

I'm really sorry, I am probably the last person you should ask, as I don't know jack about Latin.

I think @Cerberus might help you out.

yesterday, by Cerberus

Incidentally, are there any classicists on EL&U?

Billare

11:08 PM

Shucks, most people don't, but there are certain Latin phrases that have essentially crept into English discourse as a result of lawyers and obfuscating law jargon.

RegDwight

Yeah well, I am very much familiar with in dubio pro reo and whatnot.

But I couldn't so much as say "hello, my name is Reg" in Latin.

Billare

@RegDwight French would be an OK substitute. Any well known phrase or story that has the opposite flavor of "The Emperor's New Clothes?" That points out that most times, anybody with such cheek is less likely to be praised than found with his head on the block?

RegDwight

Well, when I hear "story" and "French" and "head on the block", I can't help but think of Jeanne d'Arc.

Not that that helps you in the least.

Ah, there's Martha. Perhaps she can help you out?

Billare

Heh, right.

Yeah, @Martha, are you reading this? D'you have any help for me?

RegDwight

Also, @Robusto would have quoted like fifteen Latin poems by now. I just really suck, sorry.

Martha

11:16 PM

@Billare You mean that Latin translation? I'm afraid that's way over my head. There are people I could ask, if you're willing to wait a day or so.

Billare

It's OK...I'll just have trawl through the depths of massive Wikipedia articles.

RegDwight

Might wish to start on Wikiquote.

wikiquote.org/wiki/Latin_proverbs

Billare

@RegDwight Ah, good call.

Render unto Caesar kinda has the flavor but not really.

RegDwight

I should really get around to re-reading the Bible some time.

Billare

I find the New Testament, the testament that Christians use to evangelize and are most gung-ho about, frightfully boring.

Kosmonaut

11:30 PM

"Excuse me, professor, can you tell me where the library is at?" -- "Here at Harvard, we never end our sentences with a preposition."

"Oh, sorry. Can you tell me where the library is at, asshole?"

RegDwight

@Billare Yeah well, some of the gospels could use a tl;dr.

@Kosmonaut Ein Klassiker.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight I thought the Golden Rule was the tl;dr of the gospels.

Billare

lol

RegDwight

Then it should be marked as such. Last I checked, it wasn't.

Kosmonaut

It's in the New New Translation.

RegDwight

11:34 PM

Ah. How very helpful of you.

Kosmonaut

Also appearing in the New New Translation:

Billare

I find instant salvation to be a very weak doctrine. The New Testament is used to wash out all the interesting, historical parts of "worshipping God".

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Haha, I will burn in Hell for laughing at that.

Billare

I still love Old Testament stories about Deborah the judge and how she nailed some dude's head to the ground while he slept.

Or that woman who got thrown off a tower.

Jezebel.

RegDwight

Oh Deborah, do you recall?
Your house was very small,
with wood chip on the wall.
When I came around to call,
you didn't notice me at all.

Billare

11:37 PM

Ooh, Kosmonaut: Do you know any Latin phrases or French phrases or phrases from Shakespeare that say something like: "It is unwise to criticize the King?" The opposite moral of "The Emperor's New Clothes"?

Kosmonaut

Probably a better question for @Robusto...

RegDwight

23 mins ago, by RegDwight

Also, @Robusto would have quoted like fifteen Latin poems by now. I just really suck, sorry.

Kosmonaut

Haha.

Billare

Have you guys ever discussed StackExchange management in chat? A simple "Yes" or "No" will suffice.

RegDwight

Whaddayamean?

Man, I misspelled whaddayamean. How embarrasing is that.

Kosmonaut

11:42 PM

Once I misspelled whaddayamean on a resume. That was bad.

Billare

I don't want to get into specifics too much...I just know you guys have a proper sense of propriety, how comfortable have you felt discussing things you like or dislike in chat?

RegDwight

Mar 5 at 14:49, by RegDwight

@Robusto great minds think alike. Or, as ze Schömans put it, zwei Idioten, ein Gedanke.

Kosmonaut

Questions we like or dislike?

Billare

No, features, aspects of the way management handles things.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight Haha. The Germans are so pessimistic!

RegDwight

11:43 PM

Well, there's a lot of open discussion over at MSO. And on the blog.

And you really run into Jeff and Joel all the time, and you can openly tell them what you think, and they can handle that.

Billare

Joel, yes.

RegDwight

Poor Robert sometimes gets a lot of flak, too.

Martha

Well, except that Jeff has lately demonstrated an inability to handle criticism, in the sense that he posts non-answers and defends indefensible mistakes.

RD1

Lately?

Martha

And he threatened me with unspecified Bad Things (TM) if I put the "bug" tag back on Eeek.

Billare

11:46 PM

Res ipsa loquitur...

Kosmonaut

@Martha Yes, I saw that! Quite scary!

RegDwight

Well, Jeff is just one of those people — and that's quite probably why Joel picked him to begin with — he's one of those people who are smart and get things done. So sometimes he acts first, asks questions later, but in the end, he wants this to be a better place for everyone. I am absolutely convinced he does.

joelonsoftware.com/items/2007/06/05.html

RD1

I'd agree with that. But he learned Customer Service skills in a gulag.

RegDwight

An even better link: joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000073.html

Kosmonaut

break.com/usercontent/2008/4/…

Billare

11:49 PM

Things are transcripted here, so I can't be as open as I would like. I also have a important feature request pending...

RD1

Lol. Office Space. He actually needs someone who talks to the Engineers so that customers don't have to.

RegDwight

Thank God for John C. McGinley.

RD1

Help me to help you people. Help me to help you.

Billare

How did you get by your convictions, RD!?

RD1?

RD1

Which convictions?

Billare

11:53 PM

"I'd agree with that."

RD1

Well, I meant that I agree with the fact that he genuinely wants this place to be better for everyone. You can tell by the effort he puts in. And I've actually seen him change his mind based on feedback a few times :) I'm sure he cares.

RegDwight

Yes. Case in point: Gaming.

RD1

Indeed.

Kosmonaut

I'm still a little annoyed about that time he swooped in and killed off an EL&U tag.

Billare

Interesting. Things have been fractious between him and members of Math SE.

RegDwight

11:56 PM

@Kosmonaut That is precisely what I am talking about. I don't think he did that to piss anybody off.

Kosmonaut

No, I don't think so either.

Billare

2 of the highest rep members on that site, 10k+ reputations, left in mid-Decemeber.

Kosmonaut

But he didn't say "oops my bad" or "hmm, good points" or anything either.

RegDwight

@Billare I've been following that, too, though not very closely.

Billare

What did he say about vgv8? That issues seem to "spring up" around certain users?

RD1

11:58 PM

He's an extremely opinionated person, which by itself is not a terrible thing (I happen to be one too). It just seems to take a bit too much effort at times to get him to come to a full stop, and listen to an opposing viewpoint without prejudging it.

Billare

7

Q: Where has the envelope gone to?

There used to be an envelope left next to the user name. Where is it now? I want to click it to see where I've got an upvote or where I got a new comment or something like that.

support

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Yes, but you know what? I'm going to cut him some slack. It's a wonder that he finds time to say anything at all, really. I don't want his job.

RD1

@RegDwight Exactly.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight I'm a little annoyed. Not a lot annoyed.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…