English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

6:00 PM

@Cerberus — Typhoon is from 颱風 (pronounced たいふう taifuu) meaning "storm wind".

Cerberus

Well according to the map, the US should except only about what half a meter high?

@Rob: The OED says that typhoon is a mixture of this Chinese word and some Urdu word...

I really wonder what the death toll will be in Japan.

I have a feeling it won't be as bad as with the last great Asian tsunami, which killed, what, hundreds of thousands in Indonesia alone?

Robusto

@Cerberus — Well, I was talking about tsunami anyway. But the parallel between taifuu and typhoon is too close to ignore. That is the Chinese reading of the kanji, though, so the Japanese no doubt got it from Chinese.

0

Q: "If this, then do that" vs "If this, do that"

With then: "If you have multiple computers, then you'll have to repeat the process for each computer." Without then: "If you have multiple computers, you'll have to repeat the process for each computer." For some cases I feel that "then" is mandatory, for some other cases I feel...

usage

Possible dupe of

14

Q: Can I use an "if" clause without "then"?

I have the following sentence: If T had still been alive, there is the great possibily that either T or C ... My teacher says that the word "then" must appear after the comma, but I think that it's implied and unnecessary. Who is right?

grammar words

RD1

I'd vote to close, but well... I can't.

Speaking of Tsunami. Martha's masterpiece rages on.

Martha

@Robusto Page not found. I guess the OP found the dupe?

Cerberus

It would be interesting if an answer could explain when "then" is to be preferred and when it is not; there is more to it than "it is not required".

Robusto

6:19 PM

@Martha Must be.

Cerberus

After ample consideration, I have decided that perhaps earthquakes are not fun.

Man those videos are terrible.

Robusto

@Cerberus — There is really very little reason to use then unless you want to emphasize the consequence, usually after a long list of criteria. At a point when you don't remember that you started with an if clause.

"If you feel you are wronged, you are hurt, you are angry, you don't know where you're going, you're totally fed up, possibly you're suicidal, then you might want to consider seeking professional help.

Otherwise, not necessary at all, at all.

Cerberus

@Rob: Right, its most important function is probably to indicate the apodosis when the if-clause was long. But is that all there is to it?

At least it can also be used for mere emphasis?

Robusto

Yes, for emphasis.

Cerberus

As in, If you're really sure you want to break up with me, then so be it.

Robusto

6:33 PM

Yes.

Cerberus

It is still not required o.c....

Robusto

Otherwise only for long or interrupted protasis.

Cerberus

Right.

Then perhaps my question would be, what factors may influence the use of "then" for emphasis?

RegDwight

@RD1 How original of you. Just click on that link, geez.)))

Robusto

You could ask that. I'll C&P my reply here, and we both walk away feeling smug and self-satisfied. :)

Kosmonaut

6:34 PM

@Cerberus One of my friends here in my department is from Sendai, Japan

Cerberus

Because emphasis is always such a vague term, almost like an incoherent gut feeling.

RD1

Eh?

Robusto

He's baaaaaaaack ...

Cerberus

@Kos: Oh dear. Has he heard from his family?

Kosmonaut

She has been unable to contact her family so far since the earthquake

Robusto

6:35 PM

that sucks

Kosmonaut

There is no phone service at all

So she's just at home, probably dialing a phone over and over.

RD1

@RegDwight You confuse me. More than usual.

Cerberus

Man that sucks. Probably due to power cuts?

RegDwight

@RD1 You said you wanted "status-by-design". Well, that's exactly what drachenstern posted in response to that comic.

2 hours ago, by RegDwight

Robusto

They have a nuclear reactor that is in jeopardy. Not a good thing.

Kosmonaut

6:36 PM

Yeah, there's no power. I don't think anyone in Sendai or around there has any serivce

But my friend literally has no more information than any of you, or me.

Cerberus

If I read historical death tolls, it seems most earthquakes don't kill really huge numbers of people, and Japan was comparatively well prepared; so statistically her family is probably all right. Still, this terribly uncertainty must be killing her.

Kosmonaut

Yes, I think the odds are highly in favor of them being okay.

Cerberus

@Rob: I heard the reactor wasn't in real danger of melt-down? Or am I mistaken?

RD1

Yeah 4 nuclear reactors right on the coast near the epicenter. Supposedly they were all shut down safely.

Robusto

@Cerberus — That's what they're saying, but they always would say that.

Cerberus

6:38 PM

@Kos: Is/was their house near the coast?

Robusto

The fact is, they evacuated the surrounding communities anyway.

Cerberus

@Rob: Now you sound very American...

Yeah I read that there was a chance of leakage, but no meltdown.

Robusto

@Cerberus — Dou shite?

Cerberus

You know, conspiracy theories and all...

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus Some of us at the offices were just discussing that. We don't know where her family's house is located specifically.

RD1

6:39 PM

Every time I see @rob I have to remember that it's not for me.

Kosmonaut

We don't want to ask her, obviously.

Robusto

Ha. Like you don't have conspiracy theories in Cheeseland.

Cerberus

@Kos: Yeah well I'd ask if I were speaking to her anyway, but as you it would not do to call her about that specifically of course.

Robusto

But, seriously, it only makes sense to try to keep the lid on. If they start running around yelling, "ZOMG the nuke is gonna BLOW!" they'll only create panic.

Even if it is gonna blow.

Cerberus

I am not sure.

Robusto

6:40 PM

Better to get people away quietly while being reassuring.

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus Particularly if she is sitting there trying to call her family and waiting for a call from them.

Cerberus

I don't think lying to your subjects is a great idea on the long term; just not saying anything about a meltdown and calmly telling them to leave the area would do, I suppose.

RD1

All it takes is one person 'in the know' at the plant to call his family and tell them to get the heck out of Dodge to blow that conspiracy out of the water.

Cerberus

@Kos: Right. Unless you guys were her closest friends in the country or nearby?

@RD01: True: it usually has unforseen consequences, if it works at all.

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus Her fiancee lives in Connecticut. Not too far. He was visiting and just left to go back yesterday.

I imagine he'll probably come back.

Cerberus

6:44 PM

@Kos: Yeah. So you are not especially close with her? Then I probably wouldn't call either at this time. Perhaps tonight? Difficult.

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus I'm one of a small group who are the closest friends right around here. One of them lives in the same apartment though.

We were actually going to go over there tonight to have this hotpot dinner.

I can only imagine it is cancelled!

Cerberus

@Kos: Ah, ok. I don't know, perhaps she'd like more company?

This is why I like advice columns (I am probably the only one on SE).

Martha

There's now a system message pointing at my question on MSO.

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus I don't think so. But the hotpot thing is still up in the air so if she really wanted a support group to be there, she could have one.

RD1

@martha Excellent. That should keep the votes pouring in!

Kosmonaut

6:48 PM

I try to imagine personally if it were my hometown where my family was.

I don't know what I would want, but I don't think I would want to talk about it with a lot of people.

Cerberus

I think I'd want someone to be there, but perhaps no more than a few or perhaps one person.

Martha

@Cerberus Earthquakes are definitely not fun. Especially when there are smaller ones that lull you into a sense of complacency, and then blam! a big one. The Northridge quake seemed to go on forever.

Cerberus

Northridge? Where is that?

RD1

California.

Martha

1994 Northridge earthquake

The Northridge earthquake occurred on January 17, 1994, at 04:31 Pacific Standard Time in Reseda, a neighborhood in the city of Los Angeles, California, lasting for about 45 seconds. The earthquake had a "strong" moment magnitude of 6.7, but the ground acceleration was one of the highest ever instrumentally recorded in an urban area in North America, measuring 1.7 g (16.7 m/s2) At least 33 deaths were attributed to the earthquake, with some estimates ranging much higher, and there were over 8,700 injured. In addition, the earthquake caused an estimated $20 billion in damage, making it on...

Cerberus

6:50 PM

It is a pity that both coasts and earthquakes should often follow the edges of tectonic plates: people always settle at coasts.

Martha

The church I basically grew up at is in Reseda.

Well, Tarzana now. The post office kept changing its mind.

Cerberus

Wow, 1.7 g.

And 20 billion damages.

Pretty bad.

And still not many killed.

That should give some people hope.

Martha

The only reason it didn't kill too many people is that it occurred at 4:30 in the morning.

RegDwight

Population density is a factor, too.

Cerberus

Hmm, is that so? Are people less vulnerable at home?

Martha

6:53 PM

There were multiple freeway collapses that would have killed thousands if the quake had occurred later.

RD1

In general, people are less vulnerable when they stay in one spot. If you're with your family you tend to stay put.

Cerberus

@Reg: But that was a neigbourhood of LA??

RD1

Instead of driving, as Martha pointed out.

Martha

It's called the Northridge quake, but it affected basically all of southern California.

Cerberus

Okay, as long as regular houses won't collapse, I can see why it should be better to stay inside.

I didn't know freeways would collapse sooner than houses actually.

We don't have quakes here, pfew.

Martha

6:55 PM

My roommate at college felt it. In San Diego. I was home for the weekend, so I was much closer. The only reason I didn't fall out of bed was that I was sleeping on a mattress on the ground at the time.

RD1

I live in the land of tornados instead. I'm not sure either is better.

Cerberus

Wow, falling out of bed.

Oh man, tornados might be even worse.

Kosmonaut

I'm glad I don't live in earthquake country

Cerberus

At least you have some time to flee, usually?>

@Kos: Same! We don't really have any disasters here any more.

RegDwight

@Martha I've seen numerous documentaries that a much worse earthquake is long overdue in the San Andreas Fault. Seriously, I wouldn't want to move there.

Kosmonaut

6:56 PM

I like a nice hurricane. 3 days advance notice.

Get the hell out of there.

RD1

Tornados are so unpredictable. One destroyed a house right across the street from the house I lived in growing up. It didn't touch another house in the entire city.

Cerberus

@Reg: Yeah I have read that too. But isn't SF built to withstand quakes, like Tokyo? Or is that impossible if the magnitude gets too high?

kiamlaluno

LI doesn't get much hurricanes, does it?

Kosmonaut

SF is built to withstand quakes.

RD1

California made a ton of regulation changes after Northridge. And I'm sure, despite outstanding current regulation, Tokyo will make changes too.

Cerberus

6:58 PM

I saw the skyscrapers rock back and forth in Tokyo in this video.

Kosmonaut

The northeast doesn't get many hurricanes, but it does get them every so often. But usually they are pretty wimpy by then.

Cerberus

So what would happen if a giant earthquake were to strike off the coast of SF?

RegDwight

@Cerberus Rocking back and forth is actually good. It's when they are too stiff that they collapse.

Cerberus

@Reg: I know! That's why I thought they might not need to change anything after this.

Kosmonaut

Again, better not to have rocking back and forth or collapse :)

Cerberus

6:59 PM

True!

Martha

Bah, system message is gone.

RegDwight

Some skyscrapers actually have a gazillion-ton heavy, freely swinging weight on the very last floor, to literally counterbalance earthquakes.

Cerberus

We could never withstand any earthquake here, without laying new foundations hundreds of meters deep below any and all buildings in 2/3 of the country, including Medieval churches etc... clay sucks in that regard.

RD1

Heh, maybe they realized they were throwing fuel on the fire.

Cerberus

Oh that weight is a good idea. I like that.

Martha

7:01 PM

(Also, the Eeek question never completely loads for me. Anyone else experiencing that?)

Cerberus

So is there general consensus that not many buildings would collapse if SF were hit by a 9.0?

And what about the tsunamis?

RD1

@Martha loads ok for me

Cerberus

Surely they would be devastating?

Martha

@Cerberus Actually, I'm sure many buildings, and roads, and bridges, would collapse if SF were hit by a 9.0. It's impossible to build things to be earthquake-proof. The best you can do is earthquake-resistant.

RegDwight

@Martha I don't see the system message you were talking about.

But I can load the question just fine.

Martha

7:05 PM

4 mins ago, by Martha

Bah, system message is gone.

RegDwight

Ah, you've triggered yet another bug.

2

Q: Can someone throw up a system message about the missing envelope?

I tried, but I couldn't figure out the markup for the link to this question: Eeeek! What happened to my envelope? The standard text syntax didn't work, and while the anchor tag worked in the preview, it was stripped from the message as displayed.

discussion system-message

You really are a baddie, Martha.

Cerberus

@Martha: I thought so. But how great would the damage be? Would the city cease to function for years? Or would it just be a couple of billions $ and a thousand deaths? I mean, that is terrible enough, but perhaps not enough reason to, say, move the entire city, if that were even possible.

RD1

They should bring back the envelope on April 1st... for one day.

RegDwight

Here's a picture, @Cerberus.

Taipei 101

Taipei 101 (), formerly known as the Taipei World Financial Center, is a landmark skyscraper located in Xinyi District, Taipei, Taiwan. The building ranked officially as the world's tallest from 2004 until the opening of the Burj Khalifa in Dubai in 2010. Taipei 101, designed by C.Y. Lee & partners and constructed primarily by Samsung Engineering & Construction. The tower has served as an icon of modern Taiwan ever since its opening, and received the 2004 Emporis Skyscraper Award. Fireworks launched from Taipei 101 feature prominently in international New Year's Eve broadcasts and the str...

Martha

Well, how long did it take to rebuild Cypress Viaduct/Interstate 880 after the 1989 Loma Prieta quake? 11 years? But life went on in the meantime, just with less convenient roadways. Whereas after Northridge, the 10 freeway was repaired in all of 3 months, because, well, it's the busiest freeway in L.A.

RD1

7:13 PM

That is a fantastic looking skyscraper.

Cerberus

@Reg: Thanks! That looks pretty cool actually.

I meant the weight.

Kosmonaut

Wow, I didn't know about that thing with the weight

That is cool.

RegDwight

Why did that picture show up again? Did you quote me, Kosmonaut?

Kosmonaut

What? I didn't do anything.

RegDwight

I wasn't posting anything at that time, I was downloading this other picture.

Weird.

Kosmonaut

7:15 PM

Must have been a bug.

I was wondering why you posted it again.

RegDwight

So was I!

Anyhow, that's a 660 tonnes pendulum.

Cerberus

I think it was your evil quote macro betraying you.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Then it would happen much more often.

Cerberus

I imagine a building like that would be able to resist at least 9.5, if they say it should topple once in 2,500 years.

@Reg: That's what it wants you to think. It is cleverer than that.

RegDwight

It boggles my mind what amazing stuff people build. And I haven't even seen that building in person yet.

RD1

7:22 PM

The relatively old skyscrapers in Chicago still blow my mind.

Robusto

@RD1 — Chicago has the best architecture for a big city in North America, period.

RD1

Absolutely. A TON of variety.

Robusto

And you can get a good view of it from anywhere on the lakefront.

Sometimes I miss Chicago so much.

Except in winter.

And summer.

RD1

Well, you hit upon our only two seasons. Winter and Road Construction.

Robusto

Haha, yes I remember that joke well.

Winter lasts till June.

RD1

7:25 PM

It's funny. Until you realize it's true.

Robusto

Also, I lived near Lake Michigan, so I got very well acquainted with what "lower near the lake" meant.

My brother just took early retirement and moved to New Mexico. He had a two-hour commute each way to downtown from the northern suburbs.

RD1

Very nice. I've only lived in Hyde Park, and in the burbs. But I've always spent a ridiculous amount of time on the lakefront.

Northern suburbs are awful. There is a severe lack of arterial expressways.

But that's the reason I always take the trains.

Robusto

Yeah, trains are good.

Except for the CTA. Which sucks.

RD1

Hahaha. true enough.

Kosmonaut

On the Long Island Rail Road, you can drink beer.

Now that's a good train.

RegDwight

7:30 PM

Dupe alert

0

Q: "We've" vs "We have"

Is we've equivalent to we have? In some cases, they do seem to be correct, but sometimes they don't. Consider these 4 sentences. We've got a problem here. We have got a problem here. We've a problem here. We have a problem here. Which of these are correct, and which are wrong?

differences

RD1

Well. Thanks for the dup links, which allowed me to discover my new favorite sample sentence: "I've got an octopus in my pants."

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — Also on the C&NW or the other one. Hmm, can't believe I've forgotten the one that goes into Union Station.

Oh, The Milwaukee Road.

Dunno about the Rock Island Line, which is a mighty good road, and the one RD01 would take.

Cerberus

japan.person-finder.appspot.com/?lang=en

Robusto

►

Cerberus

Anyone looking for someone in Japan could try there, it is by Google.

RD1

7:37 PM

Yeah, sadly it has a bunch of a$$hats posting spam in there too. I noticed someone posted as Ichiro Suzuki (well-known US Baseball player).

@robusto Actually I'm on the BNSF line.

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus I just emailed this to my friend

Cerberus

@Kos: Ah ok, good.

Dammit, another quake, 7.5 inland, 170 km north of Tokyo. Apparently not very serious.

RegDwight

Uh, here's a tough one. On-topic, off-topic?

3

Q: How did Napoleon III coin the term "Latin America" ?

The actual term "Latin America" was coined in France under Napoleon III and played a role in his campaign to imply cultural kinship with France, transform France into a cultural and political leader of the area and install Maximilian as emperor of Mexico. -Wikipedia

american-english latin

RD1

@RegDwight I was looking at the fact that the question seems to include its own answer.

Cerberus

Yes.

The OP should take that out and put it in an answer of his own.

RegDwight

7:50 PM

Um, no, what I was thinking is that the question must be completely reworded, "Where does the term 'Latin America' come from", as Napoleon didn't coin it in English, did he?

Kosmonaut

Good point

RD1

Well, Napolean's term was directly translated, so I'd say close enough.

Cerberus

I hate thinking about on-topicness.

Whoever will do it has my respect.

RegDwight

I think the OP might not understand how the site works, you're all right that he seems to be asking the question in the title, and answering it in the body.

RD1

@Cerberus I don't envy them that task either.

RegDwight

7:54 PM

Though his other two questions look okay.

O God, I have no idea.

Cerberus

Maybe just cut it up then? Make the body an answer?

RD1

It's possible he doesn't understand the geopolitical significance in the Wikipedia quote.

Cerberus

Oh that is better, I hadn't realized it was a quote.

No need for perfectionism: if the situation isn't absurd, who will be harmed if you just leave it like this?

Robusto

@Martha: Your envelope question is now #7 on the all-time hit parade.

@RegDwight — Funny, I thought for sure that was a T-Rex question. But it's not.

RegDwight

@Robusto T-Rex at least follows the format.

@Cerberus Answering your own questions is perfectly okay with us, but the format must not be ignored.

RD1

8:02 PM

Wow that's a lot of comment upvotes. I rarely bother to even read that many comments.

Cerberus

@Reg: I know, but... if it takes too much energy to restructure all weird questions... I'm just saying that most people won't mind the occasional bad question. There are many that are bad in other ways, ways that are allowed on this site, but still bad.

Robusto

@RegDwight — I wondered how long this job would take to break you. Looks like, uh, less than two weeks.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight Vocative?

RegDwight

@Robusto It takes more than that.

@Kosmonaut Yup.

Kosmonaut

Vocative case

The vocative case (abbreviated ) is the case used for a noun identifying the person (animal, object, etc.) being addressed and/or occasionally the determiners of that noun. A vocative expression is an expression of direct address, wherein the identity of the party being spoken to is set forth expressly within a sentence. For example, in the sentence, "I don't know, John," John is a vocative expression indicating the party who is being addressed, as opposed to the sentence "I don't know John," where John is the direct object of the verb, "know." Historically, the vocative case was an eleme...

Cerberus

8:09 PM

What about it?

RegDwight

Vocative still survives in Russian, though few people realize that.

Robusto

Romani is vocative in Romani ite domum.

Cerberus

True.

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus It's funny to think of the phrase "oh God" as being vocative.

Cerberus

Though I prefer Romanes.

Kosmonaut

8:10 PM

A lot of the things I say after "oh god" are not things I would want to say to God.

Robusto

Which reminds me: I wonder if Latin eunt and OE eodan have the same root.

Cerberus

@Kos: In fact I suspect that "oh" is a very old word closely linked to the vocative case, as it often functions almost as an article with vocative nouns or names.

What does eodan mean?

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus Not sure, I think "oh" and "o" are different.

Cerberus

The e in eunt is very common in IE languages.

Robusto

Well, there is a concept of vocative direct address which begins each reference with O, and I believe it is called apostrophizing.

Cerberus

8:12 PM

@Kos: O and oh, really? I have always thought of them as the same morpheme?

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus They are certainly two different lexical items nowadays.

Cerberus

I wonder what the technical definition of apostrophe is. If you are already writing to a person you regularly call "you" in this text, is it still apostrophe if you use "oh, Jane" there?

@Kos: There is "oh, I don't know" v. "oh(,) Zeus!"; but I'd not be surprised to find "o(,) Zeus!" too?

Kosmonaut

Yes, but "oh Zeus" and "o Zeus" are two different things

With different meanings

Cerberus

Really?

Kosmonaut

"O Zeus" is vocative. It means that I am addressing Zeus

Robusto

8:16 PM

O Zeus! is apostrophizing.

O Zeus, O mightiest of the gods! Hear me!

Cerberus

But if you say "oh, Zeus, grant me this...", Zeus is also vocative.

Kosmonaut

It should have been written "O, Zeus"

Cerberus

Or would you never write "oh" there?

Ah, I see.

Kosmonaut

They might have the same roots — that is what I was wondering about. But they aren't the same anymore (although "o" is really getting rare)

Robusto

@Cerberus — eodan is an OE word meaning "to go"

Cerberus

8:17 PM

I think I was confused by different spellings in Latin, Dutch, English etc. then.

@Rob: Then it is 95% certain to be cognate to Latin eunt.

Kosmonaut

> In early use oh was interchangeable with o in all contexts. The latter is now, however, almost entirely restricted to vocative uses (see O int. 1) and to imperative, optative, or exclamatory phrases (see O int. 2). Oh occurs especially standing alone and in exclamations more detached from what follows, but in the 17th and 18th centuries it often occurs also in imperative, optative, or exclamatory phrases and in these uses has again become common since the early 20th cent.

So... looks like same roots, and they split.

Cerberus

Okay I get the modern different spelling now.

In Greek, you would always use ô with vocative, but probably something different for English modern oh: probably ai or papai or something similar.

I am talking about written, literary Greek now.

Kosmonaut

"ai" is equivalent to "oh" in some languages, so yeah, probably that

German ach

Cerberus

But I think in many language there are several interchangeable sounds.

Martha

Hungarian actually has three meanings for ó: the vocative one, the "oh, I see" one, and it's also a semi-archaic way to say "old".

Cerberus

8:23 PM

In Dutch, you could write o, oh, ach, ai (might be a loan word), eek (Flemish, slightly different sense).

Hmm I wonder whether o is universal, or an IE loan word in Hungarian?

Robusto

@Cerberus — Well, I certainly never saw it in Japanese.

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus It's hard to say, but it would be easy to reinvent this word for the same purpose multiple times.

Cerberus

@Rob: Ah! Interesting. How would they say it then?

@Kos: True.

In Latin, o and oh are used interchangeably, both with vocatives and elsewhere; that means that it wasn't truly linked to the vocative, but rather to an emotional outburst, which a vocative often (but certainly not always) is.

But I think it is exclusive to vocatives in Greek.

Martha

The ó = old sense is Finno-Ugric, the ó = vocative sense is almost certainly a medieval Latin import, and I'd guess the ó = oh sense is onomatopoeic.

Cerberus

In Dutch it is the same as in Latin.

RegDwight

8:29 PM

This question should go directly to C. Logan's inbox:

1

Q: UK English: Is "dived" a valid word?

Proofing a manuscript, I found this in the middle of a chase scene: Spotting an opening, I dived into it and was horrified to find it was a dead end. Is "dived" a valid past tense of the verb "dive"? I've always used "dove", but I'm not certain what the use is in UK English. Cambridge sh...

single-word-requests british-english editing

Cerberus

@Martha: Interesting! But I'd expect there to be a link between onomatopoeic oh and vocative oh, because the vocative is often used in emotional outbursts, at least conventionally so in literature.

Kosmonaut

My slavic officemates are saying that they say "ah" long [ɑɑ]

Cerberus

Ah! Interesting.

RegDwight

Don't make me quote valya again.

Martha

The Hungarian equivalent of "um", on the other hand, is ö. Or rather, öööö. It's a really good way to tell apart the truly-native speakers and those who learned Hungarian really well, but in America.

Cerberus

8:30 PM

I think there must be something onomatopoeic to it all, with some formal differences added later.

RegDwight

@Martha Germans have a long ööööhm.

Cerberus

In Dutch, it would be close to ö too.

Kosmonaut

In Arabic, the vocative is ya [jɑɑ]

RegDwight

But is it the same for both sexes?

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight What are you referring to?

The Arabic?

RegDwight

8:33 PM

Feb 9 at 16:24, by Kosmonaut

I can't imagine calling on the phone in Arabic... they have gender for "you"

Kosmonaut

Ah, haha. Yes, that word is not gender-specific.

It doesn't mean "you" or anything.

Verbs and 2nd person pronouns require gender

and adjectives

RegDwight

Okay, then problem solved. Instead of "you", you just say "o person on the other end of the line".

Cerberus

Dammit, Greek o is considered a stop word and is unsearchable.

Robusto

@Cerberus — They would just use extremely polite forms. Direct address using a person's name is considered presumptuous unless followed by -san or -sama, and it is more polite to address a person by title than name. If your company president is named Ohashi, you would not call him Ohashi-san, but kachou-san (honorable Mr. President).

And you would never use 2nd person pronoun as a form of address to a superior.

Cerberus

@Rob: Okay, so the -san suffix functions as a sort of vocative marker? What about addressing God in literature?

Robusto

8:36 PM

You mean the Emperor?

Cerberus

Hehe.

Robusto

Tennou-sama might suffice. Not sure, haven't addressed the Emperor of Japan yet.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight Yeah, you just can't actually say anything to do with actions, since you can't use verbs in reference to them :)

RegDwight

Pah, never stopped me.

Cerberus

Okay, then this -san/-sama is probably what comes closest, even though I believe it is a general affix of politeness?

RegDwight

8:37 PM

@Robusto I address our Japanese customers as -sama all the time. Please don't tell me I'm doing it wrong.

Robusto

-san is normal, and a corruption of -sama. -sama by itself is VERY polite.

RegDwight

That was my understanding as well.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight Actually, if you only use the copula in the present tense, you are okay... there is no overt verb for "to be", like in Russian.

Robusto

It's probably over-polite, but if they are your customers and paying you a lot of money, probably would be OK.

RegDwight

@Robusto But what about sensei? I am always puzzled when I have to address a university professor.

Or anyone with a better education than me, for that matter.

Robusto

8:39 PM

Interesting question. I've not been in a position where I had to address a university professor who was my teacher.

RegDwight

Nah, not talking about a teacher of mine, still about customers.

Robusto

Informally you could use sensei, I suppose. But to be safe, leave out the address altogether and just indicate by polite forms that you are talking about him, and by impolite forms to indicate things referring to you.

Learn about kochira/sochira.

Kochira means "this side" and it's how you refer to yourself or your group.

Sochira means "that side" (your side) and refers to your interlocutor or his group.

RegDwight

Yeah, kore sore are.

Robusto

But, really, the Japanese hardly ever use direct address if they can avoid it.

And if you do address your customer as Ohashi-san, make sure he's the subject of the sentence: Ohashi-san wa, ... <rest of sentence>. It's kind of like addressing him in the third person.

RegDwight

@Robusto If only I could incorporate that bit of advice in my emails.

Robusto

8:43 PM

Would Mr. Ohashi like some tea?

And then you have to remember that there are different verbs to use for go and be and get and so on, depending on if you are talking about yourself or your superior.

Crap, boss is calling. BRB.

I mean Boss-san is calling.

Kosmonaut

Bosu-san

RegDwight

Kurisumasu-sensei.

(Santa Claus.)

Kosmonaut

You think Japanese has an impoverished phoneme inventory? At least they aren't Hawaiian.

Kalikimaki

Cerberus

Languages are, like, weird.