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12:31 AM
@Skillmon -- My mother, the (self-described) teetotaler, considered hot toddies medicinal. I, on the other hand, have found that breathing the emanations of a steaming kettle does help clear the sinuses. For something more exotic, wasabi will, for me, definitely do that, but it's not the first thing I think of when I've got a stuffed-up nose.
1:00 AM
@barbarabeeton Wasabi sounds like a wondrous way of treating ones illnesses, I really enjoy that stuff.
@Skillmon -- Just make sure you get the real stuff. There seem to be an increasing number of imposters.
 
5 hours later…
6:03 AM
Hey, can someone here confirm if [!ht] with a figure when using newfloat works the same as when using [H] with float?
@FelixMaldonado I wouljd be surprised if it did. I think you shall see the ! as "try harder".
This answer discusses float placement.
cis
cis
6:55 AM
@DavidCarlisle Yes, I opened:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/77748422/how-to-dotfill-at-mathjax
 
1 hour later…
8:03 AM
@FelixMaldonado no they are different.
9:01 AM
@FelixMaldonado They aren't just different, you should also avoid them in most situations. Leaving latex more options to place your figures will result in a nicer looking document.
9:30 AM
@barbarabeeton You might enjoy some of the symbol suggestions: fosstodon.org/@[email protected]/111687170996082215
@FelixMaldonado that would be very unlikely. [!ht] is a standard latex option (normally you should use [ht] rather than [!ht] but [H] is the somewhat weird option to make a float not float defined via the float package. In general options should be rare;y used as the defaut should be set to do what you want to do by default.
@mickep describing ! it as "try harder" makes it sound like a good thing to do. A more accurate description that matches its implementation is "give up on the user-specified constraints for reasonable typeset output, and place it wherever you can"
cis
cis
10:32 AM
@DavidCarlisle and @Skillmon
You said MathJax-questions are forbidden.
But I found out, that TikzJax-questions seems to be allowed :()
----> https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/499669/how-to-make-an-e-tex-webassembly-with-jim-fowlers-web-tex-pascal-to-wasm-compil
@cis Not forbidden, it's just that unless there's also a 'real TeX' aspect they tend to be closed
@cis nothing is forbidden, just likely to get closed as off topic if they do not involve tex. The link you gave does involve tex in a big way as it is a question about compiling the tex source code
@cis TikZJax seems to use TeX, so is on topic, see the question you linked to.
cis
cis
I wrote to @Jim Fowler, asking him what about tikzlibraries in TikZJax or how to use them there.
@DavidCarlisle, @egreg, @UlrikeFischer Comments on github.com/josephwright/etoolbox/issues/45?
10:56 AM
@JosephWright hm, I wonder why they don't use \protected@write\@mainaux{}{\string\@namedef{a}{a\,b}}. But apart from this, the kernel definition looks wrong here, it should do \NewCommandCopy\thinspace\,.
@UlrikeFischer @JosephWright probably also \let\@dischyph=\-, \let\math=\(
11:20 AM
@DavidCarlisle Indeed
11:56 AM
Do you absolutely have to remain married to the same person? Just to consider all possible solutions. — yivi 46 mins ago
^^^ a programmer needs to be open minded when debugging a problem :P
 
1 hour later…
1:25 PM
@samcarter -- Oh, yes! Thank you.
1:54 PM
@DavidCarlisle Well, try harder or omit some restrictions, more or less the same.
@mickep more like "! this is ugly" :)
@Skillmon I don't have sufficient experience to have an opinion. But I have a feeling that what people do wrong is to mess with float placement before they are done with the text.
@mickep yes, that's one of the main problems. And the quite common misunderstanding that figures absolutely have to show up between these two paragraphs... And ! really turns towards the "make it ugly, but make it" side.
@yo' OH MY, YEEEEEEEEES
@samcarter @UlrikeFischer @PhelypeOleinik ^^
2:02 PM
@PauloCereda Ohhhh
@samcarter maybe @UlrikeFischer and Gert could visit Prague. :)
@PauloCereda The organisers of the walk should have coordinated with @yo' to find a common date with TUG24
@samcarter ooh
3:25 PM
@Skillmon ooh
3:52 PM
@DavidCarlisle so would you say that [ht] is more akin to [H]? This worked for me with newfloat, but I want to ditch float as it seems it is unmaintained
@FelixMaldonado no, they are completely different. [ht] provides the areas to which the float may be places (here and top, but not on a page on its own, or at the bottom) [H] is equivalent to not using a float at all, it essentially just makes a minipage and never moves "floats" the table even if that generates bad space at a page break, so in that case you need to move the table by hand or change the surrounding words.
@FelixMaldonado why do you need an option at all?
4:20 PM
@DavidCarlisle Because only using h has not sufficed when trying to have a picture where I wanted it
@FelixMaldonado using [h] on its own is almost always wrong, and latex will give a warning and change it to [ht]. Note you can include a picture with \includegraphics the only function of the figure environment is to mark the region as a float that may be moved and inserted elsewhere.
@FelixMaldonado Maybe you're falling into the trap (that many have fallen into) of thinking that every image must be inside a figure environment. If you're trying to place an image, but it doesn't have a caption and wouldn't appear e.g. in a list of figures, then you shouldn't use the figure environment at all.
@FelixMaldonado For example, in my field, most things are numbered like equations, whether they are text, math, or an image, so I rarely use the figure environment.
@DavidCarlisle so, ht should always works?
@FelixMaldonado not if you want the figure "exactly here". If you want "here if it fits but move it if not" then it should work.
@AlanMunn so H has no real replacement then?
With newfloat?
4:35 PM
@FelixMaldonado no you are omitting p so you may be specifying unsatisfiable constraints. For example by default h and t floats may not take more than 70% of a page so if you use [ht] you say they must got in h or t but may not be placed on a page with just floats. so if your float is 75% of text height it can not be placed anywhere and will drift to the end of the document
@FelixMaldonado why use a float and then request an option to make it not float? it is much more logical to simply not use a float. [H] is a really weird idea (I can say that as it was my idea)
@FelixMaldonado Not sure what you mean by that. If you truly need something not to float, then don't use a floating environment for it. If you need a non-floating thing to have a caption, then use the \captionof provided by the capt-of package, or the caption package if you're using it.
@DavidCarlisle You could even add \xspace afterwards. :)
@AlanMunn so if I dont want a captioned figure to float, dont even add [anything]?
@FelixMaldonado @AlanMunn (and I) mean don't use \begin{figure} at all.
@FelixMaldonado Exactly what @DavidCarlisle said. No figure environment at all. Just use \includegraphics (or if it's a TikZ image, just the regular tikzpicture environment.)
@FelixMaldonado But as I said, if you need a caption, and you don't want something to float, then you must use \captionof provided by the capt-of or caption packages rather than \caption.
@FelixMaldonado But as a general rule, if something is used with a caption, it's better to let LaTeX deal with its position, and so you should use the figure environment, but don't add any specifications for placement.
 
1 hour later…
5:51 PM
@AlanMunn well when I use h and H it places things exactly where I want. Without them being there, they are not in the desired places.
@FelixMaldonado To be fair, it is not easy to know where you want the floats. :)
@FelixMaldonado Are you sure what you call "desired places" is actually the best possible location? Latex is usually very good at placing figures if you allow it to do its job.
6:27 PM
@FelixMaldonado make the content larger. E.g. use \rule{1cm}{0.5\textheight}. Then you will see the difference between h and H (and also see why it can be good if things can float).
6:38 PM
@samcarter yes, because they are out order with my text, paragraphs, and the rest of the document.
when using ht for all my pictures with captions, it seems to do the trick
@DavidCarlisle so add p to [ht?]
sorry for overloading the chat with float stuff
It finally works for me
@FelixMaldonado so they should not float --- that's ok. Use the figure plainly and, if you want a caption, use \captionof (from the same-named package). I always say that figure and table where poorly πŸ˜‰chosen names; the environments should be called put-a-thing-here-that-can-float-and-is-captioned-as-a-figure 😘
Thank, overleaf already loads \caption{}
Hi @all, happy new year!
@Rmano honestly besides maybe adding p as David said, in just gonna make [ht] my float default, it works for me and I dont want to overthink it more
Im not gonna read that entire tutorial for floats that got linked above....
πŸ˜‚
@FelixMaldonado If the images are not tall, the best thing is using htbp. That makes the images staying at the nearest possible position given the normal constraints.
6:50 PM
@Rmano hmm, alright. And lets say they are tall?
htbp works perfectly, thank you
β€”ht-- htbp
@FelixMaldonado If they are tall, is almost impossible to keep them near the first reference to them without having awful vertical spacing. So what LaTeX will do is try to put them near, and when it's impossible, will emit a page with only floats. Which is normally the best solution.
I think that is all explained in the mega answer that you cited πŸ˜‰
For example, in the circuitikz manual I basically decided not to use floats, and all the figures are in-line, not captioned (they are in the flow of text) and sometimes the page layout comes out very loose --- but I think it's acceptable for that kind of document.
@FelixMaldonado it is not a tutorial but an explanation of the algorithm. And it is very useful.
7:09 PM
hmmm.... even for a really fat and tall picture (maybe like 1/3 as tall as a page), htbp with newfloat seems to solve everything for me, just like H in float does
@Rmano [htbp] it is!
@Rmano thanks, señor squirrel!
@PauloCereda You're welcome, Mr. Pato!
@Rmano <3
7:26 PM
@FelixMaldonado no overleaf just hosts texlive it does not change what is loaded in a tex document
@FelixMaldonado only use the [...] option when you need a non-default option, for most floats you should use no option at all and so use the default which is tbp in the standard classes but you can reset it to htbp if you wish.
7:51 PM
@DavidCarlisle thank you for the tip, but htbp seems to work for every figure and make everything just work, I'll just use that for figures from now on.
I will recommend htbp to my friend when using figures
@FelixMaldonado sure but if you want that to be the default you should specify that as the default not specify that as an option to every figure.
@DavidCarlisle I can automatically have [htbp] be on for every figure? How?
This float stuff dragged on for too long...
πŸ˜‚
@FelixMaldonado float package gives a custom declaration but it's just \renewcommand\fps@figure{htbp} somewhere that @ is a letter
Im using newfloat
@FelixMaldonado shrug been giving the same answers for 30 years so how long is "too long"
@FelixMaldonado the renewcommand version is basic latex so will work for any package
8:05 PM
@FelixMaldonado you shouldn't worry about floats when still writing the text. If you fine-tune their position now you will redo the work at the end again.
8:25 PM
@UlrikeFischer I only edit floats at the end of my documents.
@DavidCarlisle the renewcommand code didnt work
@FelixMaldonado Did you wrap the code in \makeatletter ... \makeatother? You need to if you're working with macros containing @ inside a document.
@FelixMaldonado Which is what @DavidCarlisle meant by "somewhere that @ is a letter"
@DavidCarlisle boooo!!! You first need to strongly discourage OP, and wait for some reasons before you provide a solution!
\makeatletter renewcommand \makeatother ?
ohh.... this does seem to work
@Skillmon Did you read back? We're done discouraging... :)
8:40 PM
@AlanMunn wait, what?
@FelixMaldonado See tex.stackexchange.com/q/8351/2693 for an explanation.
@Skillmon Oh, I thought we were still talking about floats...
@Skillmon Yes, I figured that as soon as you seemed puzzled.
@Skillmon the customer is always right?
@DavidCarlisle nah, see ifthen, xspace, ...
8:52 PM
@Skillmon all brilliant and bug free
@DavidCarlisle just not right
9:10 PM
@Skillmon you think I should answer this one instead? :-) tex.stackexchange.com/questions/706261/…
@DavidCarlisle nah, got deleted just now
9:25 PM
@JosephWright Of course we might define \, and \thinspace as \protected. But why would we support \write instead of \protected@write? In passing, we need \protected@immediatewrite in the kernel anyhow.
@egreg \protected is faster and still works in \protected@write, doesn't it?
@egreg @JosephWright lives in an alternative universe where all robust commands are \protected and \protected@write is just \write
@DavidCarlisle sounds reasonable
@Skillmon The kernel has some \protected macros, but the legacy mechanism is what people expect. And I'd be careful not to allow using \write indiscriminately, unless one precisely knows what they're doing. Maybe we'll abandon the legacy mechanism in some undetermined future. But \protected@write has features that \write hasn't (an argument for special setup).
9:41 PM
@egreg well, I'm not arguing against \protected@write, I'm arguing for \protected :P
@DavidCarlisle :)
@JosephWright Can you reopen this question; it's only a partial duplicate, but because the OP asked about two different commands and the patching methods are different.
@AlanMunn Done
@Skillmon sigh, so depressing when you are right: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/706255/…
@JosephWright Thanks!
9:52 PM
@DavidCarlisle rule numer 1: I'm always right, except when I'm not, in which case I'm still right, just a bit less.
@Skillmon except when discussing editors, when you are always completely misguided
@DavidCarlisle you misspelled right!
@DavidCarlisle see rule number 1.
10:27 PM
@egreg The issue wasn't about \protected per se, it's about the presence of the internal \,[space] in \thinspace (as you know, I'd like to go sheep-and-goats, but I don't think that will ever happen)
@JosephWright yes but applying \robustify to a robust command was only necessary as \write was being used
@DavidCarlisle Hmm, in the MWE yes but would also apply anywhere else, and the whole point of \protected is one doesn't have to worry about this - anyway, the same could pop in other places
@JosephWright yes which is why I think I'd favour changing \robustify rather than fixing each case separately

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