The Reading Room - 2023-02-26

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12:50 AM

@bobble That answer gave me the impression that the author is knowledgeable enough about both Lord of the Flies and the Bible to turn that into something that meets our standards. Deleting it as NAA too quickly will simply discourage that user from coming back.

Judging the quality of answers is not the same thing is killing weed. Weed doesn't come from people who want to contribute something useful. (I have been accused of wanting to push people away from this site...)

1 hour later…

2:19 AM

@b_jonas it's been my experience that certain posts, if flagged too early on in their history, will be allowed to stay up because the poster hasn't been given sufficient time to overhaul their answer

(or that's the reasoning given to me for why the post is no longer in the queue)

The eventual effect was to discourage me from flagging anything at all

@Tsundoku you could have given them more time to edit or respond to my comment. Instead, you claimed the answer "Looks OK", removing it from the queue unilaterally.

You didn't have to review right then. Like Rand says, the queue is slow - only one vote (for deletion, note) before yours.

3:01 AM

0

Q: In the Great Gatsby does Gatsby want Daisy because he is obsessed with wealth/prestige or does he want wealth because he is obsessed with Daisy?

At some points throughout the novel Daisy is objectified or otherwise synonymized with money(such as when her voice was described to be full of money). This, coupled with Gatsby's clear ambition from childhood, could lead one to conclude that Gatsby wanted Daisy because of what she represented, w...

the-great-gatsby theme

3:25 AM

@bobble If a new user's first answer gets deleted as NAA, they leave and there isn't "more time to edit". More time was what I was giving.

@bobble I guess I'll stop reviewing.

@Tsundoku I'm just saying that by your own logic, if moderation needs time, then you're denying other people the time to moderate by unilaterally removing things from review. The post author will get time due to the slowness of the queue and It wasn't going to be deleted immediately. If you waited a week or something like that I'd be fine

@bobble Where did I say that moderation needs time? I was saying that the answerer needs time to improve their answer. NAA implies that no time needs to be given because the answer is unsalvagable.

4:08 AM

@Tsundoku I think we just have different ideas about what flags mean. You think if I flag something I want it gone this instant. My goal is not insta-deletion, it's getting more eyes on the answer and putting it on the path to deletion if nothing changes. My frustration is that your keep taking it off its slow path towards moderation.

@Bookworm I believe the answer to this question is "yes"

But I don't have a hope of changing your opinion or the moderation style of the site at large. This started with me explaining why I wouldn't be a good fit for the mod team

@bobble if you have a vision for how the site should be moderated that differs from the current vision, running for mod seems like it would be a good thing? You can make your case to the voters and if more agree with your view, then you'll be elected and the mod policy will change. Else things will go on as is, if the same three mods run again and are reëlected.

I appreciate your point of view, that mods making unilateral decisions shortcircuits what would ideally be a process involving user input. I also appreciate what @Randal'Thor pointed out, that perhaps user input is too scarce, so sometimes mods have to make the decision. And I appreciate @Tsundoku's desire to encourage new users to stick around and learn what works on this site, rather than to come across as punitive/snobbish to them.

But I've been told my view is wrong by multiple people I respect so I don't want to go forcing it on others

I think this discussion is worth having, and I think it's worth having before all committed users; why not run, so the discussion happens?

@bobble But they respect you too! They just don't share your viewpoint. I don't see eye-to-eye with people I respect on here all the time either. For example, I think @Tsundoku's arguments in this meta question are wrong. But if more people agree with him than with me, well, that's fine. It just means more people are wrong 🙃

It doesn't follow that we don't respect each other. I admire him greatly. I can still think he's wrong. And at this point, I'm not invested enough in that particular issue to want to run for moderator, but clearly, you care deeply about modding and mod procedures, so if you think they could/should be differently, do run.

Dear @bobble, you have worked so hard on this site and I personally have enjoyed the site more since you began hanging out here. So I'm sorry that you feel that your opinion doesn't or shouldn't count.

4:48 AM

I mean I'm also a teenager and accustomed to trusting adults over myself when it comes to right and wrong

Wasn't @Mithical fifteen or sth when they first became a mod?

5:00 AM

Rules changed, now you have to be 18. I do qualify on that front

hey, so do I! Many times over!

But I'm very used to being told that the way I think/have feelings is wrong, and then accepting that

Turning 18 didn't change a lifetime of training on that front

I see. Well, it probably will be counterproductive to tell you that you shouldn't feel that way, then 🙃

I'm sorry that some of what goes on here exacerbates a difficult circumstance for you. Please run or not, whichever you feel is right for you and the site.

I do want to say that I agree in principle with some of the points you're making, and appreciate the effort you as well as others have put in to hash out the various opinions.

I'll pull another personality card, which is that people telling me I'm wrong sends me into a self-hating tailspin if it's a bad day. I mostly lash inward instead of out, but it's still bad for a mod to randomly become non-functional if criticized

I can see that that would suck bigly, yes

5:12 AM

@verbose 14

That's amazing. I wasn't even born when I was fourteen.

:thinking_face:

@verbose Exactly. A difference in approach or opinion doesn't mean that there's dislike or hard feelings, it just means that people have different approaches. There are some people that I argue with consistently yet still hold them in high regard.

@bobble Believe it or not, I had this to a degree when I first started as a moderator. The mod experience helped iron that out.

I'm also happy to answer any questions anyone has about being a moderator, especially if someone's on the fence.

@verbose I mean, I don't think the current mods are exactly unified on that front either. I'll usually leave NaA and LQ flags pending for a while, to let the queue handle them. If, after a while, they're still pending and I think the flags are correct, I'll delete the answer - I'm not a fan of leaving it around either.

5:33 AM

@Mithical yeah, but it only takes one mod inclined to act early for a mod to act early

@verbose That's a nice answer, FWIW.

@bobble That's true, and there's some room for improvement there.

@Mithical so upvote it already :-)

5:48 AM

Who says I didn't? :P

@bobble Since I won't be participating in the moderator election, there'll be fewer causes of frustration, I reckon.

@Tsundoku oh come now. She (@bobble, that is your appropriate pronoun, yes? Forgive me and lmk if not) wasn't so much saying she was frustrated at you, she was merely saying she found certain mod practices prevalent here, and which you follow, frustrating. And I hope you run again too. You're super valuable to the site as well!

We're trying to get this election going because I want to hand in my moderator badge.

I mean, if you just think it's time to step aside for a bit, I can appreciate that. I was board president of my Homeowner's Association for about four years and my term ended last June. I think most (though not all) folks would have been happy enough to see me run again, but I was ... done.

Well, I didn't take that decision in the last few days. I have just waited to write up the interest check until all mods were fully available. (One was less available for a few weeks.)

5:55 AM

In that case, I wanna say I really appreciate all the work you put in on the site. Modding is a thankless job and most of us just take it for granted ... the indication of a well-modded site is that the mods aren't noticed

well then if we're gonna be short a bod, er, I mean mod, I definitely hope @bobble runs.

Well, "the mods aren't noticed" does not entirely apply, judging by some people's frustration.

I didn't mean that statement in reference to folks who are active in this chat

Like, by definition we all know each other to some degree

and we are super invested in this community

to an extent that even heavy posters like for example Gareth or Peter Shor aren't

I mean, I don't see either of them running for mod, I'd be a bit surprised if they did

I don't mean they don't care about LitSE, obvs they do

but they care about the content and the on-topic conversations, which they tremendously enhance

I doubt they care about things like mod discussions. Like, are they even active in meta?

Apr 14, 2020 at 17:10, by Gareth Rees

What I mean by "temperamentally unsuited" is that I don't like ticketing systems — moderation (as I understand it) involves dealing with a bunch of task queues, like the flag queue. I get more than enough of that at work.

ah

well, see.

That's from around the time of the previous election.

6:01 AM

@verbose I would appreciate "they" <3

that's kinda what I said. I don't see Gareth running any time soon. Someone can be superb at providing answers and yet not wanna mod.

@bobble thanks for the correction, my apologies, I will bear it in mind.

I have two hours to finish homework that I'm only 27% of the way through! Stop distracting me, all y'all!

@Tsundoku I, on the other hand, am quite suited to ticketing systems and think I'd be fine with being a mod. I just worry I'd be a net negative

@bobble I strongly doubt that, but I don't wanna tell you how to feel.

that you'll be a net negative, I mean.

Nominations may come from people we don't expect. I have seen that in other elections in recent years. I have even seen people elected who didn't show up after the election ...

yikes

6:07 AM

@bobble I doubt it. Lit SE isn't a big site and moderation isn't a big task.

I mean it's not a big task time wise. When one mod is on vacation, I doubt anybody outside the chatroom notices anything.

There have been a couple instances in Lit's history where it was being moderated by a single moderator, effectively. It's gotten slightly larger since then, but not by much.

@verbose This is the Reading Room. We're not even supposed to talk here :-P

@Tsundoku Must have been following this:

Apr 6, 2021 at 11:55, by Alex

If nominated I will not run, if elected I will not serve.

6:24 AM

I do not want LBJ moderating this site

@Alex Or just making sure that the election was competitive. Some sites work quite well with just one active moderator.

Anyway, the meta question about 'beat literature' tag has partly turned into a policy discussion, but I think it would be better to decide on such a policy in a separate meta question. The question should just about whether people want tags for literary movements and periods but also about how to use them.

See, for example, how the tag literary-criticism is used: i.e. just for questions about literary criticism, not for every question that involves literary criticism in a different way.

Apr 6, 2021 at 12:38, by verbose

@Alex yep you're right, LBJ said something similar: see here

6:49 AM

Now that the cat's out of the bag - Tsundoku planning to step down is part of why I wanted to ask @verbose about stepping up. The two of you have probably each forgotten more about literature than Mith or I have learned yet.

@verbose Gareth isn't tremendously active in meta, but he's started and contributed to some particularly important discussions there. I think he'd be a great choice for mod, but respect that he doesn't feel he'd enjoy the job.

Regarding the meta discussion about tags for bodies of literature: I've dug up some of the old meta posts from 2017 about related issues.

Here, we got a consensus to not use genre tags, because genres are hard to strictly define and we'd get into arguments about grey areas.

Here, the discussion about using broad body-of-literature tags was more complicated. Then-CM Robert Cartaino said don't use them, and IIRC got a good consensus at first. Skooba's answer saying use language tags later came to the top, and reflects current consensus and practice. Gilles's answer says use language and period tags, but floats in the middle votes-wise.

An important consideration here is that we can't have more than 5 tags per question. Language, period, author, and title would already use up 4, leaving almost no space for other general tags like [symbolism] or [character-analysis] etc., and creating bigger problems (which we already have, admittedly) if we want to ask about connections between two different books.

@Tsundoku Agreed - if we want to start using body-of-literature tags (which would be a massive change to the tagging system of the site involving thousands of retaggings, if I understand the proposal correctly), it'd be better to discuss that in a general featured meta post, rather than something with a title about beat literature which may not interest many voters.

4 hours later…

11:28 AM

1

Q: Meaning of "anticipated cosmetic collapse" in Andrew's Brain by E. L. Doctorow

In Andrew's Brain by E. L. Doctorow: There were a lot of western blondes at the college but mostly of the blaringly self-indicative kind, with an empty-headedness or cunning about them, or perhaps their faces too clearly anticipated cosmetic collapse. Briony was fine-featured, her looks were mo...

meaning andrews-brain e-l-doctorow

2 hours later…

1:03 PM

We now have exactly 6000 extant questions.

1 hour later…

2:25 PM

0

Q: Meaning of "This is you" in Andrew's Brain by E. L. Doctorow

In Andrew's Brain by E. L. Doctorow: This is you, God. And who did you say it was, Jonah, riding the struts of the leviathan? With the tons of fish washing beneath him into the digestive caldron, as he plants one foot on one beamy rib, the other on the other, and it would be dark except for the ...

meaning andrews-brain e-l-doctorow

New big fat meta question incoming: Do we want tags for literary movements and periods?

Excellent post; let's hope it inspires further discussion.

2:40 PM

What I want to avoid with that long list of questions is that the community decides to use such tags without sufficient though, starts implementing the policy and then realies, "Oh, what have we gotten ourselves into?"

Wikipedia's list of literary movements: heavily biased towards Western literature, and within that to English-language literature.

1

Q: Do we want tags for literary movements and periods?

The recent question What's wrong with the "beat literature" tag? has turned into a broader discussion that touches on general policy, i.e. whether we should have tags for literary movements and periods. This would be distinct from genre tags, which the community decided not to use. This is also d...

discussion featured tags

@Tsundoku Yes. At first glance your meta post might look like it's "anti" the idea (which I generally dislike, preferring to keep meta discussion questions neutral and pro/anti explanations in answers), but it's actually not. It's very important - whether we do it or not - to be aware of what should be taken into account before introducing a new set of tags to a currently quite rigid tagging system.

@Tsundoku And that page only exists in 3 other languages: French, Chinese, and Punjabi.

2:56 PM

@Randal'Thor It's probably a bit better if you look at the literary movements category, but the article itself is a different matter. The difference between these two page on Wikipedia illustrates some of the complexity of tagging movements: people tend to think of the big ones and overlook the many smaller ones. (Admittedly, there would be fewer questions for the smaller ones.)

TIL Dutch literature has a latte generation.

Anyone born after that was too latte to join it.

(I heard that Dutch likes double letters?)

In Dutch, the plural of "boom" (tree) is "bomen". And the plural of "bom" (bomb) is "bommen". So it's important to get the number of consonants right.

Pronounced (approximately) like bow-men and bomb-men respectively?

En "late" also exists in Dutch; it is just a variant of "laat" (meaning "late") but it can only be used in certain contexts.

@Randal'Thor Depends on how good you want your approximations to be, but it's in the right direction.

Most nouns in Dutch have a plural on -en, and otherwise on -s. (So native speakers of Dutch aren't surprised by English plurals like children and oxen.)

2 hours later…

4:48 PM

@bobble I heard such rumors but where is that documented by the way? stackoverflow.com/legal/moderator-agreement doesn't say, so it looks as if 16 years of age were enough.

40

A: Is there a minimum age for Community Moderators on Stack Exchange?

TL;DR: Users have to be at least 18 to be a moderator on a Stack Exchange site. As of 2 December 2020 we established a policy requiring all moderators to be at least 18 years of age. Because the Moderator Agreement is considered a legal contract and minors can not legally be held by the agreemen...

@Mithical good. they should put that explicitly in the moderator agreement.

You have to tick an "I'm 18 or older" box before ever submitting a nomination.

oh no. we might not have enough mods for an election then.

@Tsundoku true

@Mithical I see. still it would be nice to mention that somewhere so that people who don't think of moderating can know this easily.

I hope we'll have enough candidates that I'll have to think about who to vote for, as opposed to just vote the three or four serious candidates in, however many moderator slots there will be.

(I'm guessing three slots but I'll ask when the nomination is actually starting.)

Napoleon Wilson

5:10 PM

Isn't it just one dude stepping down? Should be one open slot.

@Librarian sandraandwoo.com/2012/08/23/0405-the-archer

user image

@NapoleonWilson Not if it's a graduation election (and Lit is officially a graduated site, even if we still have no design and beta-level privilege thresholds). Electing n mods needs at least n+1 candidates, and current mods who want to continue should run again.

Napoleon Wilson

Oh.

right. so if there are three mod slots then we need Rand, Mithical, and two more serious candidates.

Napoleon Wilson

But didn't you graduate like 5 years ago?

5:12 PM

at least.

A year and three months ago.

A little over 1 year ago, in December 2021 (along with dozens of other sites, most of which haven't had graduation elections yet).

@NapoleonWilson the new Lit site is only 6 years old

Napoleon Wilson

Well, I didn't mean an actual 5. ;-)

Oh, your 5 is like your 5 million? TIL.

Napoleon Wilson

5:15 PM

Not really.

@Randal'Thor I see.

@NapoleonWilson Eine Ewigkeit.

5 hours later…

9:59 PM

@b_jonas haha, very telling and apt for our site

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