English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@tchrist Demonym?

Is this your new variant on Semantle?

Q: Is there a "-nym" word for kinship terms?

Yes. Or gentilic, to be precise. But those are the same thing. What can't go there, though, is a genonym, which was the answer to something or other on the main site. Or should have been.

1

... or do we just say "kinship terms" or "family relationship terms" or something like that? In English we have for example "aunt" and "uncle" meaning "sister/brother of one of one's parents", but in (for example) Indian languages, there are a lot of more specific terms; so the words for "wife of...

single-word-requests

A country is not typically a genus.

Exactly.

Demonyms are named for people of a particular place. Gentilic was the blank from the OED, but still.

12:13 AM

A demos is a people.

But also a deme.

Finding Greek combining forms for family, especially one from Classical Greek, is somewhat challenging.

I'm slightly tipsy.

But what family are we looking for?

Just for kinship terms.

The Germans have done something with geno- to us.

> geno-, comb. form
Pronunciation: Stress is usually determined by a subsequent element and vowels may be reduced accordingly.
Origin: Formed within English, by derivation; modelled on a German lexical item. Etymons: gene n.2, -o- connective.
Etymology: < gene n.2 + -o- connective, after German geno- (see genotype n.2).
Earliest in genotype n.2, modelled on German. Formations within English are found from the 1920s onwards.

Biology.

Forming terms relating to genes or genetics, as genophore n., genotype n.2

Maybe we can still use genonym; I'm not sure.

Sure you could.

12:41 AM

@tchrist as @Cerberus said, demonym, or at a distance, ethnonym.

Genonym might work but annoy pedants who also dislike television

rather 'television'

wait

'genus' is from greek?

'All signs point to yes'

'genonym' isn't familiar to me at all

'kinship term' is what is used

@Mitch Genos is Greek, genus Latin.

@Cerberus I am (almost) blind to vowel differences

a genunym is what you call your knees

That would be a very ugly hybrid.

and yet there it is

To change topic bluntly, what then is your alcoholic beverage of choice?

And was it that has at this moment led to your state of tipsiness?

Beer and wine.

Oh, did I have to pick one?

I drank half a can of beer, and some glasses of wine this evening.

It was a postponed birthday celebration.

1:18 AM

@Cerberus Grape or grain, never the twain

supposedly both together is cause of worse hangovers

I think together would be gastronomically ill-advised

2:16 AM

@Mitch Hah.

@Cerberus That almost sounds racist. :)

@tchrist Well, I have nothing against the race, just against using the word as a praefix in an inappropriate context!

@Mitch Generally and perhaps over-generously speaking, the stem of genus is not genu- but genera- for English adoption purposes. For matters generational, see generatrix, generatrices.

@Cerberus Like a dummynym would be. :)

Houyhnhnms are cool.

2:43 AM

@tchrist Hmm is "stem" the right term?

And why the -a-?

@Cerberus So I could generate things generically?

I see no a in generic...

Nor in generous.

Etc.

The stem is of course gener-.

I know you know this.

It's Mitch. He's spoofable.

2:45 AM

Besides, even if you didn't, you wouldn't be crazy enough to assert otherwise without looking it up.

I'm sorry about all the negationity.

You normally use the genitive to find the stem.

Yeah.

I'm trying to avoid gen- words but failing.

You usually wouldn't try.

That's why I couched my assertion with "perhaps over-generously speaking".

2:48 AM

Haha I somehow totally missed over-generously.

The over-generosity was of the extra letter.

I'm just wondering why you added it.

I wouldn't call the time prefix tempora-. That one we save for ~~Portuguese~~ Japanese fried stuff.

Because I was going to use a bunch of words that only began with that. And reneged.

I'm not sure whether Latin has an allomorph tempur-.

We temporize not tempurize.

2:52 AM

Indeed.

It must be said that o and u are often related phones in Latin. Or phonemes?

But in English, the prefix is with the vowel: temporo-. That means a specific thing. Words like temporal, temporaneous, temporicide don't count.

I think I'm sober again but I have forgotten the difference tempurarily.

@tchrist Then I must ask the same question: why add the -o-?

> temporo-, comb. form
Pronunciation: Stress is usually determined by a subsequent element and vowels may be reduced accordingly.
Forms: before a vowel sometimes tempor-.
Origin: A borrowing from Latin, combined with an English element. Etymons: Latin tempora , -o- connective.
Etymology: < classical Latin tempora temples (of the head) (see temple n.2) + -o- connective.
Compare scientific Latin temporo-, French temporo-.

temporo-alar
temporo-auricular
temporoccipital
temporo-facial
temporo-hyoid

@Cerberus Oh. I found the answer to your question. It's very long.

> -o-, connective

Pronunciation: Brit. /əʊ/, U.S. /oʊ/
Origin: A borrowing from Latin. Etymon: Latin -o-.
Etymology: < post-classical Latin -o-, a connecting vowel occurring in compounds formed by analogy with Greek compounds (and classical Latin compounds borrowed from them) in which the first element ended in -ο ; this was originally the nominal stem of the first element (as in δημοκρατία democracy n.) and was later added to other first elements by analogy (as in μητρόπολις metropolis n.).
Classical Latin -o- appears mainly in words borrowed from Greek, e.g. classical Latin philosophia p…

In English, the element is found earliest in borrowings of Latin and Greek combining forms, from the Middle English period onwards, such as those listed above in conjunction with the Latin forms cited. The earliest native formations with this element are on Greek and Latin bases which did not have a combining form or stem vowel in -o in the original languages.

It's something we do.

@tchrist Ok sure, that's just the Greek connective -o-.

And, yes, modern language can use it form modern compounds, especially before a hyphen.

"Normanno-Saxonic"

3:07 AM

But I wouldn't say it is part of a stem?

I should have said prefix.

Or combining form.

temporo-facial

That I could live with: there is a praefix temporo-, just as there is a praefix Hollando- (even though I have never seen it).

uinolentus, somnolentus

A Hollando-Zeelandic personal union.

@tchrist I'm not sure about that o. Could be part of the suffix?

Normally, Latin does not form compounds like Greek. And, when it does, it generally uses -i-.

> There are some suffixes and combining forms before which -o- regularly appears, and where it tends to be treated as if it were part of the termination, particularly where the latter is combined with an English first element which ends in a consonant.

Examples include -ocracy comb. form (for an example with a vowel, compare the variant bureau-ocracy at bureaucracy n. Forms), -ography comb. form, -ology comb. form, -ometer comb. form. Compare classical Latin -olentus (after uiolentus) in e.g. uinolentus, somnolentus.

3:11 AM

That is just wrong, sorry!

Write them.

I will!

The only situation in which I'd be willing to recognise the o as being part of something is in a modern praefix.

Looks like it sounds like a hobo stew, that word does: wino lentils.

You cannot both say that the praefix is aristo- and the suffix -ocracy.

Heh.

You could if they fused.

If your language were one which customarily did such reductions.

3:14 AM

And in hyphenation, it clearly shows that the o is part of the praefix.

But the modern languages that use the o do not do this.

How to explain temporoccipital?

As a more appropriate compound.

heh

In Greek, the o is only necessary before a consonant or perhaps certain diphthongs?

Oölithic looks Greek to me. I wouldn't want to have to have temporoöccipital.

Yes, It's not oolithoic or whatnot. No o.

3:19 AM

I'm not sure what you mean, but doesn't it come before a consonant?

Zoölogy in four syllables, stressed on antepenult.

But those all come before a consonant.

@Cerberus I don't mean anything, don't worry. Just moronically inserting more o's willy-nilly for (non)comedic effect.

When you have word with a stem on a vowel, and you want to praefix it to a word beginning with a consonant, you'd normally still add -o-.

Yeah.

3:22 AM

It may seem unnecessary to you.

And so it may be.

But it is what they did.

We all want open syllables.

Or at least, classical forms do.

It sounds bad (to ears with my bias) when you have a consonant coda abutting yet another consonant in the next syllable onset.

In Dutch, you could write zeeëend.

Although any sane person would spell that zee-eend.

@tchrist Hmm in which situations?

Even in Greek, you can do that!

Even with two plosives.

hounddog? aftertree?

Northampton?

Dodge Judge. :)

threshold

Uptick?

In Greek, somehow compounds don't like it.

But outside compounds, consonants can but.

3:39 AM

Acoustic but acousto-electric.

In Greek, you would not normally need that o.

Then again, you wouldn't use a hyphen.

What not acoustelectric?

I would say, in the modern languages, it is the hyphen which enforces this o on the praefix even before a vowel.

@tchrist That would be appropriate.

But not with a hyphen.

The hyphen-type compounds are just a modern oddity.

acousto-optics or acoustoöptics or acoustoptics?

1 or 3.

The hyphen drops all praetence of Latino-Hellenicism.

3:43 AM

Well....

I know people may write 2 as well.

Socioeconomics.

But I would always use a hyphen there.

You have to smash together words built out of several component pieces one way or another. You can separate it with spaces, or with highpens, or with nothing.

But the hyphen makes a difference.

How so?

You can write temporoccipital but not tempor-occipital.

3:46 AM

That's true.

It tells you which part had been which.

And so noöne would object to socio-economic, but some like me would strongly prefer it over socioeconomic. That preference is a difference caused by the hyphen.

In Dutch, we say sociaal-economisch, by the way.

Are you afraid of seeing an o get unnaturally chummy with the e in front of it and this causing mispronunciations?

I am afraid of their proximity because the word as a whole suggests a compound made after the Greek fashion, but then the hiatus violates rules of Greek.

@Cerberus Saved by an -l.

We basically use two adjectives, but the first one isn't declined.

So sociaal-economische zaken.

In English, social-economic would in theory be possible as a compound adjective.

But I think this is never used.

3:51 AM

I don't mind thinking about declensions, but I had thought you'd lost yours on nominals almost as much as we have.

Indefinite neuter singular adjectives use the basic form, while others normally get -e.

ok

> Een groot huis.
Het grote huis.
Grote huizen.
Een grote man.
De grote man.
Grote mannen.

And groot verdriet (no article means indefinite).

I forgot to add the word 'neuter'.

As opposed to the common gender?

Yes, or as opposed to masculine and feminine.

3:55 AM

Right.

There are of course exceptions.

Certain adjectives or certain situations also use the basic form.

Inflecting adjectives needs to go. :)

Poor learners!

@tchrist chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/60528304#60528304 would be a good question comment for english.stackexchange.com/questions/585188/…? Or I may quote your permalink.

@prosody-GabeVereableContext You can say it yourself if you find it so. No attribution needed.

There are actual reasons for this.

forum.wordreference.com/threads/greek-prefix-for-family.787604

> The word for family in Greek is a complicated one. In Modern Greek it is οικογένεια [ikoyénia] which is a neologism meaning that other words were being used until the national awakening.

Some of these words may have been Italian famiglia and Turkish soy, in Greek written (respectively) φαμίλια and σόι. The word in use today comes from Hellenistic Greek reflecting a Classical Greek adjectival compound indicating a “person who is born and bred in the house”, οἶκος. The problem is that such a person could as well be a slave as a real family member (according to our own ideas about “family”).

Oikos

The ancient Greek word oikos (ancient Greek: οἶκος, plural: οἶκοι; English prefix: eco- for ecology and economics) refers to three related but distinct concepts: the family, the family's property, and the house. Its meaning shifts even within texts, which can lead to confusion.The oikos was the basic unit of society in most Greek city-states. In normal Attic usage the oikos, in the context of families, referred to a line of descent from father to son from generation to generation. Alternatively, as Aristotle used it in his Politics, the term was sometimes used to refer to everybody living in...

4:05 AM

Yeah house slaves were generally considered part of the family, or household.

In Rome and Athens.

So perhaps familia and oikos are best translated as "household" rather than our modern "family".

@tchrist I said "comment", I did not say give me an "answer". And now I might have questions too. Now what do i do. O:)

Although you could say the Roman concept of a family just differed from ours: household slaves would normally be liberated eventually, upon which event they would take the family name of their former master.

@prosody-GabeVereableContext Ponder?

Next attack can be china - taiwan

eurasiantimes.com/…

In some time , it may happen.

Let's hope China is not ready.

Hmm. :}

4:08 AM

I had seen that.

I’m sure they are ready

China still has hope for a peaceful joining.

I hope Taiwan gets ready & strong

I'm not really sure how strong Taiwan is.

China has been attacking Taiwan for a long time always with its aircraft’s

Taiwan are Better than Ukraine

4:09 AM

Nor how willing China would be to bomb it to the ground.

Taiwan believes in no negotiation with China ( which is right ) & they believe to fight fiercely

if it happens

That’s why they’re safe till now.

China is same like russia

Well, I believe Taiwan also believes in not antagonising China if possible.

Russia aspires for Soviet Union back

China wants that all people who look like Chinese should be with them

Example : China occupied Tibet

Which is why not even the anti-Chinese party, currently in power, wishes to declare formal independence.

Now , the Tibet people live in India (himachal)

4:11 AM

@S.M.T Yes.

Sad.

Why are they able to attack ? Communist parties. They can easily influence their army + there is no one to object them

@S.M.T One difference is that China has more or less possessed Tibet for how many centuries?

They have most of tibet I guess. Some is with India.

These are 2 attacks , 3rd attack can be is on India’s Kashmir. Not entire India.

But , Russia & India are good friends for very long.

So , Russia won’t attack india.

China + Pakistan + Afghanistan will fight against India to capture Kashmir mostly.

World war 3 may start , it looks like.

US knows that Russia will not attack the NATO countries , that’s why they’re soldiers are there.

US won’t help in terms of military mostly , they never have.

So , it will be battle of individual countries with interests.

4:35 AM

@S.M.T I don't know, Kashmir is just such a small and poor region: will China really engage with India in a great war over it?

4:51 AM

@Cerberus China & Pakistan are friends + China also wants some parts of India i.e like the east India.

But a big war against a nuclear power?

East India is part of India but people live there who look like Chinese.

Ladakh , Himachal Pradesh , Sikkim , Arunachal parades etc..

@Cerberus It’s ongoing still right. Few months back , we had a fight with them at Siachen

Not a great war.

They also captured an Indian civilian who was released after 2 weeks

@Cerberus No one will use nuclear weapons right

Nuclear weapon will create radiations which will hurt both sides always + citizens a lot.

Yeah.

And I really don't think China and India want a great war between them.

4:55 AM

@Cerberus Few days back , india claims that taliban attacked at Kashmir who were neutralised earlier because the weapons , uniform was of US army.

Which Taliban had kind of like stolen earlier.

India doesn’t but China does I feel. Since , there are reports + it’s been happening as well right.

But India , is quite strong a lot. We have the best military trained officers + rich history of fights.

I don't think China wants a great war against a nuclear power.

Hmm , let’s see. China is unpredictable

Maybe , they will just help Pakistan with weapons to fight for Kashmir first.

I don't know.

China doesn't want a nuclear war between India and Pakistan.

And, again, Kashmir is just a smallish, poor region, isn't it?

Umm

Muslims love other Muslims

Pakistan wants Kashmir because they feel , they are Pakistan Muslims living in India + India is not treating them well.

Same is Taliban , they feel a need to help Kashmir Muslims too.

If it was just a small poor land , there wouldn’t be so many wars going over for so long.

OK it's not really small.

But still, is it worth a great war to India?

5:06 AM

Also , I agree with your point that China shouldn’t attack India because of nuclear power.

But , then why have they been till now. They’re planning sth really big.

@Cerberus I don’t think so , you’re right.

My predictions are based on recent events + what’s happening till now.

I don't know, I've heard about some fighting.

But that happens all the time in Kashmir.

Ever since it was divided between the three countries, right?

2 countries

Yes , it does happen all the time. But , the reason is same. Pakistan wants Kashmir.

Doesn't China control some smaller part?

No

It was always divided between india & Pakistan only

Oh , I’m sorry it does in fact.

5:11 AM

I just checked rn

I didn’t know it was called COK

You’re right

Pakistan surrendered some part of Kashmir to china

Pakistan surrendered approximately 5,300 km2 (2,050 sq mi) of territory to China.

There is just so much of history + these people keep on complicating stuff. Why can’t they all live peacefully ? Why should one keep on learning about their agreements , wars , wrongdoings.

@Cerberus Gotta go now for study , thanks for the discussion. It was wonderful

I’m from India btw

@S.M.T Exactly!

@S.M.T Heh I figured you were!

Adios.

5:35 AM

washingtonpost.com/business/2022/02/26/…

This will be interesting.

Cutting off the Russian central bank from its foreign reserves.

M.A.R.

7:39 AM

@S.M.T well, Pakistanis saying "India wants Kashmir" and Indians saying "Pakistan wants Kashmir" might have something to do with it. Everyone is looking to assign blame, but fights are self-propagating, and after a long enough period both sides have something to cling onto to keep fighting.

M.A.R.

9:27 AM

@Cerberus well, the way corporations like to redefine the merry gathering of their wage slaves as "family" makes me think we've almost come full circle.

11:03 AM

@M.A.R. Sometimes , there can only be a solution when people are intelligent. That’s the problem with democracy. It just elects people who citizens want unknowingly whether is he educated enough , doing right thing or not , competitive enough.

12:26 PM

Sure. Also it's least likely a nuclear war between India, Pakistan and China. They can go into some traditional wars for small issues but not to occupy areas already covered by each country.

Pakistan perhaps doesn't want whole of Kashmir. They are more open to more solutions I read somewhere. India wants the POK, COK all back if possible.

12:53 PM

Maybe Kashmir could become an independent country?

@S.M.T Some form of ~Democratic_Intelligence, er, ~Intelligent_Democracy, would help. (I mean, that might just mean internet access, or public tax records, maybe asking for greater/deeper disclosures in general. Even autocrats use/abuse some democratic tools oddly, some better/worse than we do in the USA ourselves. Record-keeping makes democracy-keeping, but the press is not required to report all conflicting interests in elections information, background checks are not standardized vetting.)

@CowperKettle I also want that. But India/Pakistan don't think they should free them.

Just free Kashmir and then focus energy/resources in other things that matter.

1:11 PM

@prosody-GabeVereableContext Like a minimum degree of knowledge to become president.

There should be a test.

He must know basic of law

psychology , geopolitics

etc

@CowperKettle Never it can.

@Vikas Pakistan wants the Kashmir present with India. All of it.

@Vikas Freeing Kashmir still has a lot of problems. If India , Pakistan , China free Kashmir after long fights. Still , any trade to happen in Kashmir will be through these 3 countries.

So what? Switzerland is surrounded by different countries, and does quite well.

*Freeing Kashmir still has a lot of problems* of course. India/Pakistan also had problems when they got freed.

Note that you may be right. But both India and Pakistan use this phrase for their own benefits like occupying it, rather than freeing it.

I asked a question about this in case you want to read: politics.stackexchange.com/questions/69018/…

I was also deeply interested in understanding it.

@CowperKettle I also don't consider it a good enough reason to NOT free Kashmir.

1:27 PM

Putin has just ordered Russia's Nuclear Forces to be put on Combat Alert due to "aggressive statements made by NATO countries" meduza.io/news/2022/02/27/…

Putin famously said some time ago that if Russia and NATO come to nuclear blows, "we (Russians) will go to Heaven, and they will just disintegrate."

@CowperKettle "famously" ?

@CowperKettle That doesn't look great.

Vladimir Putin announces 'Russians will go to Heaven as martyrs'

Just in case, it was very nice chatting with you. If there's Heaven, I hope there is some version of this chat there.

He. Is. Mad.

Angela Merkel was right when she said after a phone call in 2014 that "Putin sounds deranged, out of contact with reality".

Just the kind of guy.

> “The top officials of the leading NATO countries allow aggressive statements against our country, therefore I order the Minister of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff to transfer the deterrence forces of the Russian army to a special mode of combat duty,” Putin said during the meeting

Yekaterinburg is a large industrial city with military-industrial facilities, including those that make equipment for rockets.

It's too bad that I don't have a country house ("dacha").

Today Putin's henchman Kadyrov said that the war is going too slow, and "we should redouble our efforts, and really hit at all fronts. There will be destruction, yes, but this happens during wars".

I hope he is upping the ante to gain some playing cards at the negotiations. But I've been wrong twice about him: when he invaded Eastern Ukraine using covert troops in 2014, and when he invaded Ukraine three days ago.

Both times, I was completely calm and did not expect anything until it happened.

►

My psychiatrist friend told me that Putin might be taking some psychoactive stuff, but it's hard to tell.

Postsoviet pharmacology might cause some trouble for the world.

@CowperKettle ok

At the same time, 16 minutes ago a representative of President of Ukraine said that there will be negotiations.

Almost all of Europe is closed to Russian airplane companies.

Yesterday, the EU forbade the selling of parts to maintain the Russian cilivian fleet of airplanes. This means that by year-end some 50% of the planes might be grounded.

Russia's billionaire owner of Alfa Bank has spoke out against the war, although mildly. He is walking on a thin ice. Qudos for bravery.

Russia's state television continues to say that there are no losses, while Ukraine offers to transfer to Russia some 3000 dead soldiers.

Meanwhile all Russians can see corpses of Russian soldiers online. It's surreal.

My translator friend in Kharkiv said that Russian solders don't have enough food. They roam of outskirts of the city, asking for food. Some people are firing at them from their homes.

He has flooded me with videos of captured Russians, burned out Russian vehicles.

1:49 PM

@CowperKettle @Vikas People from ages 18-60 are fighting & registering.

I asked him not to be so upbead, because an enraged Putin might just announce a total callup of all men, and flood Ukraine with cannon fodder.

I saw a video of 21 yr old guarding a flyover in capital city of Ukraine. So brave

I really think other countries should come & attack now.

My longtime friend called me a traitor of Russia for being agains the war. She said "Russia has never attacked anybody".

@CowperKettle That’s the thing. Bad influence which Russia have over its people.

@S.M.T They will never do it for fear of a nuclear war.

1:51 PM

@CowperKettle Hmm , It’s so tense situation.

I wrote her a long list of countries which Russia attacked during the 19th and the 20th century.

Exactly

How do you think Soviet Union was made & why was it so big ? By capturing other countries. After capturing , they use their labour.

I know. People are brainwashed.

The USSR invaded and captured Georgia in 1921, although it was ruled by Socialists.

What can you do ? That’s why I like the idea of multi-planetary species of Elon musk. Just go out of earth & live on other planet.

😂😀

Yes))

1:54 PM

U know what I think

Humans are people who are survivors , fighters etc

Just like lions. They survive by killing.

U will see people saying that we don’t like to kill or hurt someone but if you notice , these will be the same people who watch murder movies , play shooting games

Why do u enjoy killing in video game then ?

Human we’re not made to live together in peace & harmony. Why do u think people enjoy boxing , wrestling etc. There is no right or wrong in human conscious.

@CowperKettle Putin is a communist person right ? How can we believe in heaven & hell ?

@S.M.T That is kind of true.

@Vikas Right.

Humans like everything , good or bad.

But I think it's true in a broader picture and in a long timespan. We can't blame individual human at a particular time.

They may not show it but it is present in our mentality.

For example we can say a lot of people/countries survived by killing others in past.

2:09 PM

That’s survival.

@S.M.T Babies show in-built morality system in their brain at the age of several months. They are made to observe dots of different size "helping" or "attacking" each other, and scientists track babies' gaze, and conclude that babies are interested in the "moral" scheme of the events.

Robusto

@Cerberus Yes, oikos is where we get our word economy. And the wife was the original economist, since she had the responsibility of managing the household.

@Vikas If you’re in jungle , will you kill an animal so that u can live ? U will.

@CowperKettle K.

@S.M.T First I will try to run away or hide xD

Because I don't think I'll survive the attack.

@Vikas You can’t stay hungry all your life can u ?

@Vikas Haaa , u can start with deer or small animal too

2:12 PM

Yes for survival you would tend to kill.

@CowperKettle @Vikas I think humans are gods (in a sense). Definitely , no one knows who created us & why are we like this. But , we as humans created robots.

Then , we created artificial intelligence.

I mean like , who knows if AI robots are so intelligent that they can find solution to problems in seconds. We may even build v strong rockets & maybe , find aliens or the one who created us.

That is what I am excited for in life.

Robusto

@CowperKettle I liked your leaflet where you called Putin a war criminal.