English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@tchrist Demonym?

Is this your new variant on Semantle?

Q: Is there a "-nym" word for kinship terms?

Yes. Or gentilic, to be precise. But those are the same thing. What can't go there, though, is a genonym, which was the answer to something or other on the main site. Or should have been.

1

... or do we just say "kinship terms" or "family relationship terms" or something like that? In English we have for example "aunt" and "uncle" meaning "sister/brother of one of one's parents", but in (for example) Indian languages, there are a lot of more specific terms; so the words for "wife of...

single-word-requests

A country is not typically a genus.

Exactly.

Demonyms are named for people of a particular place. Gentilic was the blank from the OED, but still.

12:13 AM

A demos is a people.

But also a deme.

Finding Greek combining forms for family, especially one from Classical Greek, is somewhat challenging.

I'm slightly tipsy.

But what family are we looking for?

Just for kinship terms.

The Germans have done something with geno- to us.

> geno-, comb. form
Pronunciation: Stress is usually determined by a subsequent element and vowels may be reduced accordingly.
Origin: Formed within English, by derivation; modelled on a German lexical item. Etymons: gene n.2, -o- connective.
Etymology: < gene n.2 + -o- connective, after German geno- (see genotype n.2).
Earliest in genotype n.2, modelled on German. Formations within English are found from the 1920s onwards.

Biology.

Forming terms relating to genes or genetics, as genophore n., genotype n.2

Maybe we can still use genonym; I'm not sure.

Sure you could.

12:41 AM

@tchrist as @Cerberus said, demonym, or at a distance, ethnonym.

Genonym might work but annoy pedants who also dislike television

rather 'television'

wait

'genus' is from greek?

'All signs point to yes'

'genonym' isn't familiar to me at all

'kinship term' is what is used

@Mitch Genos is Greek, genus Latin.

@Cerberus I am (almost) blind to vowel differences

a genunym is what you call your knees

That would be a very ugly hybrid.

and yet there it is

To change topic bluntly, what then is your alcoholic beverage of choice?

And was it that has at this moment led to your state of tipsiness?

Beer and wine.

Oh, did I have to pick one?

I drank half a can of beer, and some glasses of wine this evening.

It was a postponed birthday celebration.

1:18 AM

@Cerberus Grape or grain, never the twain

supposedly both together is cause of worse hangovers

I think together would be gastronomically ill-advised

2:16 AM

@Mitch Hah.

@Cerberus That almost sounds racist. :)

@tchrist Well, I have nothing against the race, just against using the word as a praefix in an inappropriate context!

@Mitch Generally and perhaps over-generously speaking, the stem of genus is not genu- but genera- for English adoption purposes. For matters generational, see generatrix, generatrices.

@Cerberus Like a dummynym would be. :)

Houyhnhnms are cool.

2:43 AM

@tchrist Hmm is "stem" the right term?

And why the -a-?

@Cerberus So I could generate things generically?

I see no a in generic...

Nor in generous.

Etc.

The stem is of course gener-.

I know you know this.

It's Mitch. He's spoofable.

2:45 AM

Besides, even if you didn't, you wouldn't be crazy enough to assert otherwise without looking it up.

I'm sorry about all the negationity.

You normally use the genitive to find the stem.

Yeah.

I'm trying to avoid gen- words but failing.

You usually wouldn't try.

That's why I couched my assertion with "perhaps over-generously speaking".

2:48 AM

Haha I somehow totally missed over-generously.

The over-generosity was of the extra letter.

I'm just wondering why you added it.

I wouldn't call the time prefix tempora-. That one we save for ~~Portuguese~~ Japanese fried stuff.

Because I was going to use a bunch of words that only began with that. And reneged.

I'm not sure whether Latin has an allomorph tempur-.

We temporize not tempurize.

2:52 AM

Indeed.

It must be said that o and u are often related phones in Latin. Or phonemes?

But in English, the prefix is with the vowel: temporo-. That means a specific thing. Words like temporal, temporaneous, temporicide don't count.

I think I'm sober again but I have forgotten the difference tempurarily.

@tchrist Then I must ask the same question: why add the -o-?

> temporo-, comb. form
Pronunciation: Stress is usually determined by a subsequent element and vowels may be reduced accordingly.
Forms: before a vowel sometimes tempor-.
Origin: A borrowing from Latin, combined with an English element. Etymons: Latin tempora , -o- connective.
Etymology: < classical Latin tempora temples (of the head) (see temple n.2) + -o- connective.
Compare scientific Latin temporo-, French temporo-.

temporo-alar
temporo-auricular
temporoccipital
temporo-facial
temporo-hyoid

@Cerberus Oh. I found the answer to your question. It's very long.

> -o-, connective

Pronunciation: Brit. /əʊ/, U.S. /oʊ/
Origin: A borrowing from Latin. Etymon: Latin -o-.
Etymology: < post-classical Latin -o-, a connecting vowel occurring in compounds formed by analogy with Greek compounds (and classical Latin compounds borrowed from them) in which the first element ended in -ο ; this was originally the nominal stem of the first element (as in δημοκρατία democracy n.) and was later added to other first elements by analogy (as in μητρόπολις metropolis n.).
Classical Latin -o- appears mainly in words borrowed from Greek, e.g. classical Latin philosophia p…

In English, the element is found earliest in borrowings of Latin and Greek combining forms, from the Middle English period onwards, such as those listed above in conjunction with the Latin forms cited. The earliest native formations with this element are on Greek and Latin bases which did not have a combining form or stem vowel in -o in the original languages.

It's something we do.

@tchrist Ok sure, that's just the Greek connective -o-.

And, yes, modern language can use it form modern compounds, especially before a hyphen.

"Normanno-Saxonic"

3:07 AM

But I wouldn't say it is part of a stem?

I should have said prefix.

Or combining form.

temporo-facial

That I could live with: there is a praefix temporo-, just as there is a praefix Hollando- (even though I have never seen it).

uinolentus, somnolentus

A Hollando-Zeelandic personal union.

@tchrist I'm not sure about that o. Could be part of the suffix?

Normally, Latin does not form compounds like Greek. And, when it does, it generally uses -i-.

> There are some suffixes and combining forms before which -o- regularly appears, and where it tends to be treated as if it were part of the termination, particularly where the latter is combined with an English first element which ends in a consonant.

Examples include -ocracy comb. form (for an example with a vowel, compare the variant bureau-ocracy at bureaucracy n. Forms), -ography comb. form, -ology comb. form, -ometer comb. form. Compare classical Latin -olentus (after uiolentus) in e.g. uinolentus, somnolentus.

3:11 AM

That is just wrong, sorry!

Write them.

I will!

The only situation in which I'd be willing to recognise the o as being part of something is in a modern praefix.

Looks like it sounds like a hobo stew, that word does: wino lentils.

You cannot both say that the praefix is aristo- and the suffix -ocracy.

Heh.

You could if they fused.

If your language were one which customarily did such reductions.

3:14 AM

And in hyphenation, it clearly shows that the o is part of the praefix.

But the modern languages that use the o do not do this.

How to explain temporoccipital?

As a more appropriate compound.

heh

In Greek, the o is only necessary before a consonant or perhaps certain diphthongs?

Oölithic looks Greek to me. I wouldn't want to have to have temporoöccipital.

Yes, It's not oolithoic or whatnot. No o.

3:19 AM

I'm not sure what you mean, but doesn't it come before a consonant?

Zoölogy in four syllables, stressed on antepenult.

But those all come before a consonant.

@Cerberus I don't mean anything, don't worry. Just moronically inserting more o's willy-nilly for (non)comedic effect.

When you have word with a stem on a vowel, and you want to praefix it to a word beginning with a consonant, you'd normally still add -o-.

Yeah.

3:22 AM

It may seem unnecessary to you.

And so it may be.

But it is what they did.

We all want open syllables.

Or at least, classical forms do.

It sounds bad (to ears with my bias) when you have a consonant coda abutting yet another consonant in the next syllable onset.

In Dutch, you could write zeeëend.

Although any sane person would spell that zee-eend.

@tchrist Hmm in which situations?

Even in Greek, you can do that!

Even with two plosives.

hounddog? aftertree?

Northampton?

Dodge Judge. :)

threshold

Uptick?

In Greek, somehow compounds don't like it.

But outside compounds, consonants can but.

3:39 AM

Acoustic but acousto-electric.

In Greek, you would not normally need that o.

Then again, you wouldn't use a hyphen.

What not acoustelectric?

I would say, in the modern languages, it is the hyphen which enforces this o on the praefix even before a vowel.

@tchrist That would be appropriate.

But not with a hyphen.

The hyphen-type compounds are just a modern oddity.

acousto-optics or acoustoöptics or acoustoptics?

1 or 3.

The hyphen drops all praetence of Latino-Hellenicism.

3:43 AM

Well....

I know people may write 2 as well.

Socioeconomics.

But I would always use a hyphen there.

You have to smash together words built out of several component pieces one way or another. You can separate it with spaces, or with highpens, or with nothing.

But the hyphen makes a difference.

How so?

You can write temporoccipital but not tempor-occipital.

3:46 AM

That's true.

It tells you which part had been which.

And so noöne would object to socio-economic, but some like me would strongly prefer it over socioeconomic. That preference is a difference caused by the hyphen.

In Dutch, we say sociaal-economisch, by the way.

Are you afraid of seeing an o get unnaturally chummy with the e in front of it and this causing mispronunciations?

I am afraid of their proximity because the word as a whole suggests a compound made after the Greek fashion, but then the hiatus violates rules of Greek.

@Cerberus Saved by an -l.

We basically use two adjectives, but the first one isn't declined.

So sociaal-economische zaken.

In English, social-economic would in theory be possible as a compound adjective.

But I think this is never used.

3:51 AM

I don't mind thinking about declensions, but I had thought you'd lost yours on nominals almost as much as we have.

Indefinite neuter singular adjectives use the basic form, while others normally get -e.

ok

> Een groot huis.
Het grote huis.
Grote huizen.
Een grote man.
De grote man.
Grote mannen.

And groot verdriet (no article means indefinite).

I forgot to add the word 'neuter'.

As opposed to the common gender?

Yes, or as opposed to masculine and feminine.

3:55 AM

Right.

There are of course exceptions.

Certain adjectives or certain situations also use the basic form.

Inflecting adjectives needs to go. :)

prosody-Gabe Vereable Context

Poor learners!

@tchrist chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/60528304#60528304 would be a good question comment for english.stackexchange.com/questions/585188/…? Or I may quote your permalink.

@prosody-GabeVereableContext You can say it yourself if you find it so. No attribution needed.

There are actual reasons for this.

forum.wordreference.com/threads/greek-prefix-for-family.787604

> The word for family in Greek is a complicated one. In Modern Greek it is οικογένεια [ikoyénia] which is a neologism meaning that other words were being used until the national awakening.

Some of these words may have been Italian famiglia and Turkish soy, in Greek written (respectively) φαμίλια and σόι. The word in use today comes from Hellenistic Greek reflecting a Classical Greek adjectival compound indicating a “person who is born and bred in the house”, οἶκος. The problem is that such a person could as well be a slave as a real family member (according to our own ideas about “family”).

Oikos

The ancient Greek word oikos (ancient Greek: οἶκος, plural: οἶκοι; English prefix: eco- for ecology and economics) refers to three related but distinct concepts: the family, the family's property, and the house. Its meaning shifts even within texts, which can lead to confusion.The oikos was the basic unit of society in most Greek city-states. In normal Attic usage the oikos, in the context of families, referred to a line of descent from father to son from generation to generation. Alternatively, as Aristotle used it in his Politics, the term was sometimes used to refer to everybody living in...

prosody-Gabe Vereable Context

4:05 AM

Yeah house slaves were generally considered part of the family, or household.

In Rome and Athens.

So perhaps familia and oikos are best translated as "household" rather than our modern "family".

@tchrist I said "comment", I did not say give me an "answer". And now I might have questions too. Now what do i do. O:)