This Is Fine

12:27 AM

Laura Ingraham and the former president are blaming Biden for Russian aggression. Sick and twisted stuff. twitter.com/atrupar/status/…

> OMG. After Ingraham mentions that Russian forces are reportedly engaged in an amphibious attack, Trump says, "you told me about the amphibious attack by Americans. You shouldn't be saying that ... they should do that secretly."

"No. That was the Russians," Ingraham corrects him.

The American right are just the absolute worst.

I just don't understand how they got as bad as they are.

Jolenealaska

1:19 AM

Ex-Officers Guilty in Federal Trial Over George Floyd’s Death

Mazura

Ah found you guys. WTF is going on! Ukraine is fuct?

Jolenealaska

ST. PAUL, Minn. — Three former Minneapolis police officers were found guilty on Thursday of federal crimes for failing to intervene as another officer killed George Floyd by pressing his knee on his neck for more than nine minutes.

The case was an extraordinarily rare example of the Justice Department prosecuting officers for their inaction while another officer used excessive force. The verdicts signal to police departments across America that juries may become more willing to convict not just officers who kill people on the job, but also those who watch them do it.

@Mazura It's bad. It's really bad. That's about all we know yet.

Mazura

That would explain why I can't find anything about it other than a death toll.

And some night footage looking like it's 2003

... with my free 8 min of CNN go (so stupid)

Go figure. Imgur is doing a pretty good job. "It's bad. It's really bad." yep.

Wipqozn

1:37 AM

@Mazura Basically, Putin is nuts.

Mazura

People hiding in the freaking subway.

Wipqozn

Yeah it's fucked.

Mazura

UN needs a new rule. Start shit anywhere and we will come end you.

Wipqozn

@Mazura This is a good summary ctvnews.ca/mobile/world/…

But basically, there have been discussions around offering Ukraine NATO membership, which appears to be a large factor in what triggered this invasion.

Cerberus

2:18 AM

@Wipqozn Well, from what I know, there was absolutely no chance of Ukraine gaining NATO membership in the intermediate future.

Nobody wanted to provoke Putin that way.

> The Untold Story of the Ukraine Crisis

4

This article is pretty interesting.

Jolenealaska

9:51 AM

So, whaddya think? Is this the start of World War III?

Wipqozn

11:28 AM

@Jolenealaska Honestly I have no idea. The problem is Russia has nukes, so no country will want to start something... But does that mean Putin will just keep pushing?

Sanctions are likely all we'll see for now, I think.

Jolenealaska

11:42 AM

I've been doomscrolling for a couple of hours. I think it comes down to - just how nuts is he?

Nzall

12:23 PM

@Jolenealaska There's also the complication that multiple foreign cargo ships have been damaged by bombs while sailing through the Black Sea, vessels that were not under a NATO country flag fortunately (otherwise Article 5 might have been invoked), but that were chartered and sometimes owned by a NATO country company. fortune.com/2022/02/24/…

Jolenealaska

12:39 PM

How's that for a nightmare? World War III triggered because a NATO country flagged ship carrying corn was clipped.

Russian Troops Enter Kyiv as Moscow Pushes to Topple Ukraine’s Government

My precious Guinea pig is about to give birth. I would like very much for that to be my biggest concern right now.

Fredy31

1:52 PM

Not so sure.

Nobody is putting boots on the ground against him except Ukraine, so currently no domino effect.

Protests against it in Russia. People have got their fill of putin.

But what i think is gonna tip the scales is that in the business world, Russian companies are kicked out of every deal/sponsorship I see. And when it will hurt the businessmen that bankroll putin, they will tell him to back down and he will have to listen.

Maybe I'm optimist

BradC

2:32 PM

@Fredy31 its very hard to put financial pressure on a kleptocrat (a leader who plunders the wealth of his country for his own benefit). Someone like that doesn't work in the best interests of his country; he may or may not care if his country's businesses or their people (even wealthy ones) are impacted by sanctions

Flats

@Wipqozn Nah, but if the conflict extends past Ukraine, it's not gonna matter where you're from lol

BradC

So to really pressure Putin, sanctions need to really target his own personal financial holdings

Memor-X

@BradC however it would strain his supporters, the ones he needs to maintain power because he can't do everything by himself and he can't fund the military if he's hording the money for himself

Nzall

I think the only economic sanction that might work is the SWIFT exclusion, but the problem is that means a lot of Europe will suddenly lose access to Russian gas

BradC

@Memor-X Sure, its somewhat of a balance, but a kleptocratic dictator like Putin maintains power through fear and force and political favors, not through "support" in the usual sense

Flats

2:42 PM

I had just watched one of Putin's speeches about why he invaded: Why does he always look so bored??

BradC

(discussing whether Putin has the "support" of his country's ruling class is a bit of a misnomer as well; it kind of assumes those people have a choice, like they could voice their disapproval of Putin or their support of opposing ideas without risking their positions, and probably their very lives)

Nzall

If I was Zelensky, I would try to make a deal with Putin that in return for complete Russian withdrawal and help in reclaiming the Donbas region, Ukraine would officially recognize Russia as owner of Crimea and not continue NATO negotiations until the end of Putin's successor's first term.

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska No, I don't think so.

Putin is pretty rational. He takes what he thinks he can take.

He knows he cannot win an invasion into NATO countries.

Which is why he is so paranoid about Ukraine joining NATO.

MBraedley

@Nzall One of the goals of the invasion is to depose Zelensky. How do you negotiate with someone that doesn't view you as the legitimate leader of your country (while also not recognizing your sovereignty to begin with)?

BradC

@Cerberus I agree with much of that regarding Putin's awareness of risk, but I'm not sure I would ever use the phrase "Putin is pretty rational"

Cerberus

2:51 PM

@BradC Some of the economic élite have voiced some concern, I believe in a kind of television discussion with Putin, of course fully orchestrated. Putin was trying to assuage their worries by saying Russia will remain inside the global economic system.

However, there is concern that Putin is no longer listening to the economic élite/plutocrats very much any more, but only to the small circle of former KGB agents he has surrounded himself with as his unofficial 'cabinet'.

Then again, I imagine those KGB people must also be cleptocrats possibly affected by sanctions and such.

I think the West is still not sanctioning the wealth of Putin himself?

@BradC I would say he has certain goals that we consider irrational, such as reigning over Ukraine at great cost; but I think he is pretty rational in the way he assesses the means to get there, and his chances. Unlike, say, Hitler, who invaded Russia against the advice of his generals.

Similarly, I think the Ayatollahs of Iran are pretty irrational in their religion, but I do think they would not nuke Israel, because they know it would mean the end of their own régime.

user4539917

What if, just hypothetically of course, Putin is actually a genius as Trump has announced?

Cerberus

What does that mean?

And what trumpet?

user4539917

Assuming he meant a tactical genius.

Cerberus

Oh haha.

> Britain’s defense secretary, Ben Wallace, said on Friday that the verified assessment of his country’s intelligence services was that Russian forces “hadn’t achieved their goals so far” and had failed to meet any of their objectives in the first day of their invasion of Ukraine.

Mr. Wallace, speaking to the BBC on Friday morning, said President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia had so far failed in an attempt to take a key airport north of Kyiv, Ukraine’s capital. Russian forces also lost approximately 450 troops and a significant number of tanks, and have so far not broken through the line of…

At any rate, you don't need to be a great tactician to defeat a vastly inferior army.

Flats

I think this is the right spot to put this (it is an Arqade chat room afterall) but the proceeds from the game "This War of Mine" on Steam are going to the Ukrainian Red Cross right now. I haven't played yet but some of my friends say its a pretty fun game.

Cerberus

3:01 PM

Besides, I should think it's Putin's generals who devise Russian tactics mostly, less so Putin himself.

@Flats That's nice. I have it in my library. But I think it would be too depressing to play now.

Flats

Plus its on like a 80% off sale right now

user4539917

He could have meant a political tactic, no?

Cerberus

I don't really know what Trump did.

I wish he'd disappear.

I would say, strategically, what Putin is doing may be an effective way to achieve one of his goals.

But I think it will weaken Russia in the intermediate or long term, praecipitating its inevitable decline when Europe and China switch to American gas and nuclear power and clean energy.

I see no real future for Russia as a great power in a time of clean and nuclear energy.

Putin must know this, too.

So he felt he needed to strike soon.

user4539917

Strike while the world economy is trying to recover from what COVID has done.

Cerberus

Perhaps that, too.

Strike while Europe is still dependent on Russian gas.

And while China still wants Russian gas.

Nzall

3:14 PM

@Cerberus BTW, what Trump did was cheer on Vlad as he started the invasion, leading to nearly every Republican politician and pundit to start doing the same

user4539917

Be wise and monopolize.

Loong

@Cerberus Well, he is almost 70 years old, so yes.

Nzall

So you're now in the situation where if you see an American flag on an American SUV, there's a good chance they support Russia

Cerberus

@Nzall From what I heard, it was more like Trump's saying he admired Putin's skill, rather than approving of the invasion/threat?

@Loong Heh perhaps that, too.

@Nzall I'd like to see some source confirming that this is the communis opinio amongst Trump supporters..

Nzall

@Cerberus washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/23/…

Cerberus

3:17 PM

I remember now: Trump said something about how Putin was playing the game well, considering how meek American sanctions against Russia were? So it was mainly an attack on Biden.

Nzall

Also, when I say they support Russia, I meant they support Putin. I know there are large parts of Russia that don't agree with the invasion

Cerberus

Of course.

> Mackowiak said he believes that Trump and Pompeo are not assessing the moral implications of Putin’s tactics with their comments but rather his single-minded pursuit of his goal. But glowing language about Putin goes too far, Mackowiak said.

This is also how I would read what Trump and others have said?

Although some statements skirt or cross the line, like calling the Russian army a "peace-keeping force".

Nzall

@Cerberus That's how Russia calls it

user4539917

peace-keeping Eichmanns

Nzall

According to the Russians, Donetsk and Luhansk are independent republics, and the initial force that Russia sent was a peacekeeping force aimed at supporting them

Cerberus

3:27 PM

Yes, so using Russian rhetoric is rather inappropriate for Trump.

I think it is different from simply 'admiring' Putin's strategy.

One can admire the effectiveness of a robber. But calling the robbery a "borrowing of objects" (echoing the robber's words) sounds as though one were choosing the robber's side of the debate.

Wipqozn

3:59 PM

@MBraedley Yeah Putin just wants to take over the entire Ukraine.

BradC

Why dance around it? Trump deeply admires Putin; he's jealous of the way Putin rules his country as a dictator and a kleptocrat; Trump wishes his own presidency could have been more like Putin's.

Cerberus

But can he occupy it for a longer time?

@BradC Perhaps so.

> The Taliban on Friday issued its first response to the turmoil in Ukraine, calling on “both sides of the conflict to resolve the crisis through dialogue and peaceful means.”

user4539917

> Yes, there is a joke in Russia already, along the lines of "How fucked up should you be to have both the Vatican and the Taliban to ask you to stop".

Wipqozn

@BradC He's openly expressed admiration for many dictators. PLus there was the whole trying to overthrow the legally elected government thing.

user4539917

4:16 PM

> Russia's major electronic and consumer goods store chain today increased all prices by 30%.

30% in one day.

BradC

@Wipqozn Yep. The one anecdote that sticks with me, that I think characterizes Trump's troublesome view on Putin, is the way Trump accepted Putin's lame denial of Russian election hacking in the face of all the evidence and analysis of our own intelligence agencies.

Cerberus

Yeah Trump is pretty bad.

At least he is a coward.

Flats

Trump may be (not so) secretly in love with Putin, But I have yet to see any of the people I know that supported Trump say anything you could even mistake as praise for Putin since he invaded. I would say that its a unanimous disdain, the only dissent being people that think we should just ignore the whole deal and not get involved

@Cerberus I think this is the right take

Cerberus

@Flats Yeah that is what I would expect, too.

BradC

PRESIDENT BIDEN NOMINATES KETANJI BROWN JACKSON TO SERVE ON THE U.S. SUPREME COURT

Flats

4:23 PM

As such I think it's the wrong move to put out an article saying that "republicans praise" Putin for any of this. Just disingenuous. Examine their speech specifically and call out actual Putin supporters individually. Blanket statements are not the way to go for this one

Cerberus

@Flats Yeah I agree.

Typical clickbait.

Applying the techniques of 'social media'.

Flats

@Cerberus The usual lol

Cerberus

I do think "Trump praises Putin's tactics" would not be unfounded.

Or "Trump admires Putin's authoritarian approach".

Because he actually did those things, didn't he?

But actually, I'd prefer no headlines whatsoever about controversial people.

The attention only foments their influence.

Flats

@Cerberus Now wouldn't that be nice

but then we couldnt get any info about them

Cerberus

No need.

Flats

4:32 PM

Honestly I think recognizing aspects of even terrible people's tactics as (tactically) brilliant or similar, shouldn't be an issue at all. I can recognize that scummy business tactics are scummy while also admiring the "success" that they give to aspects of the business. (think environmental destruction or worker abuse/disregard)

If it works, it works. Doesn't mean I think it's good

Cerberus

@Flats I don't think it's necessarily immoral to do so, but I do find it...in bad taste.

Admiring the skill applied in an immoral act.

Describing it as effective in a neutral tone, that is as far as I would go.

Flats

Likewise, a political voice can recognize that Putin's timing or entry points were tactically brilliant or at least the best he could have gotten, without actually supporting them

@Cerberus I'm with ya on that, yeah

Cerberus

@Flats I really think words like "brilliant" are in bad taste.

For one thing, "brilliant" suggests perfection.

Which is an exaggeration, or a misplaced cliché.

And I think it is in bad taste to exaggerate the skill of an immoral party.

Flats

Fair enough, I won't pretend to know about whether they were actually brilliant or just effective. And I see what you mean.

Cerberus

It also smacks of admiration in the sense of "he is super good at what he does, he should be an example to us, at least in this respect".

Of course its distastefulness grows as the act is more immoral.

Admiring the technique of a rapist, I think anyone will agree that this would be distasteful.

Flats

4:37 PM

@Cerberus Hadn't thought of it that way, but you're right. The way that people interpret the words means much more than what they are specifically defined as.

Cerberus

Admiring the technique of a bank robber, less distasteful.

@Flats Right, that is another point.

Flats

@Cerberus People do this with Serial killers and such though, think of all of the media around how "brilliant" their evasion of capture was

And I'd put serial killers and rapists near the top of the distasteful-to-admire group

Classic media, always playin up the death and destruction

why would I want to hear news if it isn't bad news?

Cerberus

@Flats I think many people find praising rapists even more distasteful than killers haha.

Flats

Good news is boring

Cerberus

@Flats Yeah, the continual flood of scandals and crime in media is bad for the population, I think.

@Flats Yes, alas.

Newspapers should post the graphs of decreasing crime and increasing life span and Internet access etc. every week!

Flats

4:42 PM

@Cerberus I think I would agree with that observation but its hard for me to justify. I'd rather just not think about it at all honestly

Cerberus

I personally feel murder is usually even worse than rape.

But I think the sexual aspect of rape makes it easier for people see how praising a criminal's skill can be in bad taste.

Flats

@Cerberus Extra! Extra! Kittens Being Adopted at Record Rates!

Cerberus

What Putin is doing is causing many deaths, though perhaps few murders.

@Flats Exactly!

Flats

@Cerberus at least one person disagrees lol: wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/…

Cerberus

Hmm access denied.

Can't read the article.

I have to go in a minute, btw.

Flats

4:51 PM

odd, well it was a story of someone spraypainting "Murder" in front of the Russian Embassy

Cerberus

I found the incident elsewhere.

I suppose the fine like between murder and death is less important here.

Later!

Wipqozn

5:16 PM

‘Putin ain’t woke’: Steve Bannon and Erik Prince celebrate Russia for being anti-LGBT independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/…

WEll paywell needed

Contains the video though

non-paywalled source: ca.movies.yahoo.com/…

What shitty, shitty people.

prosody-Gabe Vereable Context

Written news chat transcripts are better than TV. (For news, I always had Mac not TV at home in my room, pre-iPhone. Fam was all network/antennae TV. I/family never had cable growing up. Just tried DirecTV for first time ever this month, at a shelter hotel (a Holiday Inn). It seems transcripts.cnn.com was coded in the early 1800s? Lord CNN Transcripts (& Tweets) suck compared to StackExchange transcripts. Why's transcripts.cnn.com not have the teleanchors chatting while talking?)

Wipqozn

5:53 PM

Russia said on Friday it was partially limiting access to Meta Platforms Inc's (FB.O) Facebook, accusing it of "censoring" Russian media, the latest in a series of steps against U.S. social media giants. reuters.com/business/media-telecom/…

Wipqozn

6:44 PM

NBC News: Capitol rioter photographed with Pelosi's podium on Jan. 6 sentenced to prison.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/capitol-rioter-photographed-pelosis-podium-jan-6-sentenced-prison-rcna17409

This guy

> A Florida man who bragged he "broke the internet" when he was photographed carrying House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's podium during the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was sentenced to 75 days in prison on Friday.

75 days? Oh boy.

75 days for trying to overthrow a legally elected government and execute public officials.

Yuuki

> Finland or Sweden joining Nato would spark Russian response, Russia warns

uhhhh

i mean, it's apparent that not joining NATO would spark a Russian response too, so...

source

Fredy31

7:43 PM

Yeah didn't all this start by Ukraine saying, in passing, that they MIGHT want to join NATO?

Wipqozn

9:06 PM

@Yuuki Yeah this is fucked.

NATO Response Force activated for first time cnn.com/2022/02/25/politics/nato-ukraine-russia/index.html

Yuuki

@Fredy31 note that support for joining NATO in Ukraine was in the low 30s before the crimean invasion, public opinion only started moving towards to NATO in response to that

prosody-Gabe Vereable Context

@Fredy31 I thought it was because they're getting older? They're almost 70 now, they're asking themself if there is still time to conquer the world (and before Starlink Satellite Internet, drones delivery, and 5G are ready to give people ammunition/power to live to speak about it)?

(@Wipqozn I keep typing at the same time immediately before you send a message, we should be timestamp soulmates.)

Thinking to myself, "should I still send now, will it flow with the room"...

Wipqozn

@prosody-GabeVereableContext Rumours are Putin has some terminal disease too,I think.

@prosody-GabeVereableContext The NATO thing? Yeah, pretty much anything related to the Russia-Ukraine invasion is going to flow with this room right now.

prosody-Gabe Vereable Context

9:35 PM

I just found about the room here from chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/60513627#60513627 where we're also talking about WWIII in the chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/95/… English Language room. I guess we're all speaking the same language, & on th same page, ...We want to know if its WWIII yet, and can not fit that into a proper StackExchange question format. O:) Wait, there must be a Poli q about if it's WWIII yet somewhere.

Wipqozn

Not WW3 yet

The problem is Russia has nukes, so no one wants to go to war with them, which I'm sure Putin is well aware of.

prosody-Gabe Vereable Context

9:57 PM

washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/02/24/… from Ignatius on CNN TV yesterday, talks about how it's the (psychological?) end of one war, if not the start of another. Good they/we've waited for President Biden first, at least: "When Russian President Vladimir Putin launched his all-out invasion of Ukraine on Thursday, he effectively ended the post-Cold War era. A new architecture for global relations must be built, and its shape will depend[]"

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