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12:23 AM
@AncientSwordRage I think you must realize the milk is in the same boat as the rest of it :P
 
12:55 AM
@TheDragonOfFlame disregarding sub classes is to disregard 5e. The replace Prestige Classes with Sub Classes, and for those of the mind, MC.
 
1:26 AM
@trogdor I'm not sure if need quite a boats load of intravenous coffee
 
 
2 hours later…
2:57 AM
10
Q: What are martial classes?

AkixkisuWhat are martial classes in the context of 5e? Is there a consensus on what the terminology means? Are martial classes something that you have to specify to make yourself understood?

 
@KorvinStarmast yes but then every class in 5e would be a Spellcasting class (barring Barbarian, and there is homebrew for that)
 
@AncientSwordRage lol
 
 
3 hours later…
5:49 AM
@Trish @ThomasMarkov @Medix2 Regarding this deleted answer to the dragons v towns question. What were the grounds to warrant deletion? To me it looks like a perfectly reasonable, if incorrect answer. Worthy of downvotes but not deletion.
Just trying to understand the context as they have reposted to get around deletion, which is a separate issue.
 
 
4 hours later…
9:39 AM
@linksassin the entire answer is made up. It makes no reference to any relevant materials. There is no context given for the completely made up numbers. There is no contribution of personal experience. It’s just making stuff up from start to finish.
At the very least it needs a post notice.
And I’ve flagged it VLQ and voted to delete again.
 
9:56 AM
@linksassin it read like idea generation, and poorly reasoned: as in, all the mechanic points are only alluded to not spelled out as I added why I said he is ignoring the range issue. The Dragon moves too fast to keep that ring populated and will eventually kill everyone in its range off before the people can harm him to 50%. Also, there just aren't enough people in towns.
Actually, the only weapon that might arguably work against dragons is a ballista, and that has 1 shot before the dragon burns it in the round after it fired.
Since FR does not feature canons/guns prominently, those evade scrutiny, but those would most likely manage to do enough damage and be within range...
But I only have experience with players pondering to use a Trebuchet against a flying demon... until they realized that a single miss-shot would land their last barrel of napalm-esque fire oil in the city, so they used it to fire on the approaching orcs instead and called for a griffin.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:05 AM
[confused] Answers that are bad or wrong don't get deleted. Answers that are not actually answers at all, or which actively cause harm, get deleted.
6
"I made stuff up" is still an answer, so long as the stuff made up is relephant to the question.
Last I checked, deleting answers for failing to provide citation was an unpopular move.
 
I think our First Answers or Low Quality Posts queues might be training people wrong. You're given two choices: "Looks OK" or "Delete". It would appear that you're being told that if the answer doesn't actually look OK (because it is bad or wrong) then you should delete it.
 
@BESW I think there's a requirement to support the answer though, especially on a question
 
I've been waiting to see a First Answers item to review so that I can poke around in the dialogs, get some screenshots, and report this issue.
@AncientSwordRage tags don't come with special requirements
 
@doppelgreener the 'especially' bit was my own opinion of that tag, but by and large you're right: All questions should be supported in some way
 
it's something people have actually taken seriously enough (and we used to operate with for one tag) that we should be careful not to suggest that they do
unless they're game system tags
 
11:17 AM
and if the answer doesn't reference Forgotten Realms lore, is it actually answering the question?
@doppelgreener sorry struggling to parse that last bit: " we should be careful not to suggest that they do", that they do what? enforce supporting answers?
 
@AncientSwordRage Yes, there's an expectation, but answers don't get deleted for failing to offer support.
 
@AncientSwordRage not infrequently i've seen people respond to answers as though the (non-system) tags on the question have imposed specific magical unmentioned requirements upon the answers that are not expected in questions without that tag. we should be mindful to correct this idea when it comes up and careful to not suggest that (non-system) tags do come with special requirements.
I'm going to need to get that First Answers review opportunity to check, but I believe the actual guidance on that queue is that the answer's OK if it appears to be a sincere attempt to answer the question. Failing to do that very well is something we can respond to with downvotes. Deletion is for when it's simply not a sincere attempt to answer the question.
 
@BESW expectation is much better word to use, but my logic is still that to answer the question is should reference the lore?
 
Absolutely, I agree it should.
But we don't delete answers for failing to meet expectations.
The Stack values its content too much to use its "remove content" button to police all but the most dire of guideline infractions.
 
It would be more obviously NAA if they referenced say Eberron, on a FR question, (unless really well worded) in the same way that answering a FATE question with information from a Non-FATE system is probably NAA (again, unless really well worded).
Is the fact that if it were being better worded, and thus be viable as an answer, an argument to say it should be downvoted to encourage improvement rather than be deleted? Maybe
 
11:39 AM
@doppelgreener I don't think there is an explicit requirement, but there's implicit requirement for questions to be a) supported and b) relevant to the tags, and if it's neither it doesn't feel like it's answering that question.
I dunno, I feel like I've argued the exact opposite in the past so I may now be doubting my arguments
 
I totally agree that "I made up some stuff" is usually a notably bad answer. I'm just not sure deletion is the usual response.
I've had a lot of "just make stuff up, you're the GM" answers to questions where I was clearly asking for specific information or guidance, and those only got deleted where the tone was belligerent or the answerer self-deleted after realizing the disconnect.
This answer shows more effort than that, since they're doing the making-up themselves rather than just instructing the asker to.
What makes this one so much more egregious? The lore tag?
 
@BESW Maybe? I'm trying to articulate a feeling rather than starting from somewhere rational
@BESW I feel like if the answer had said "Forget the lore, you're the DM you can make it up" I'd be 100% happier with it
 
H*ck, in at least one case we've even undeleted an actively harmful answer because it was such a pure and undeniable form of a common toxic attitude, that deleting it would have invited more insidiously unctuous versions of the same argument.
 
@BESW I feel like that's a separate issue
 
11:54 AM
Sure. But it's still about using the delete tool cautiously and not slapping it because "answer bad."
 
@BESW Is it worse to delete a good answer on the wrong question or to downvote it?
The author of that questions doesn't deserve downvotes, and I don't think it belongs (in it's current state) on tht question
 
@AncientSwordRage If it's not an answer it's not an answer.
 
This answer seems to have hit a nerve, and I'm not seeing for myself what caused it. I'm open to persuasion, but I'm not gonna persuade myself.
 
@ThomasMarkov I agree... ish... NAA tends to be for somebody putting in gibberish not just widely missing the mark of what the question expects
 
Yeah, answering a different question is a form of NAA but we don't usually delete them immediately. Commenting with "how does this answer [question]?" usually fixes the problem with either user edits to clarify (sometimes it IS an answer to the question but we didn't see how!) or self-deletion.
 
12:00 PM
@BESW some of that happened... but not a lot? I'm not sure
I really liked it, but it read a little too much like an answer to a worldbuilding question
 
@AncientSwordRage what q&a is this
 
@ThomasMarkov the FR Dragon defence one
you didn't see me edit that #ModAbuse
 
@AncientSwordRage Ah, I see what you're talking about.
I explained in comments why that answer doesn't work here. But I see what you mean, it would work just fine at worldbuilding.se.
 
@ThomasMarkov It still relies on some D&D stuff, but I'd expect it at least reference/frame challenge FR lore here
 
@AncientSwordRage If you remove the one instance of "DM" from that answer there is no indication that it is even about a role playing game.
Much less D&D specifically.
 
12:11 PM
@ThomasMarkov I'm thinking of like how the dragon could be bloodied/50% health and the mechanical calculation
 
@AncientSwordRage Yeah, is that about a video game, board game, or ttrpg?
And if it is about a ttrpg, which "DM" does indicate, which one? Nothing in that answer even hints at what game or setting it concerns.
 
12:33 PM
ON another answer, is there FR lore with towns paying homage to dragons to keep them at bay? I did a quick search for virgin sacrifice and FR, but got no hits.
 
12:46 PM
@NautArch unfortunately it is upvoted so I cannot flag VLQ.
 
@BESW To me, there is a fundamental world of difference between an actively harmgul and toxic answer and an unsupported answer
5
A: Why was my answer to a question about the naming of oozes deemed "not an answer"?

NautArchUnsupported answers may be deleted I had voted to delete because while your initial argument on there not being an explanation was reasonable, the remaining part about what you suspect may be going on was completely unsupported conjecture. As likely as it may be, it was just a guess. At times, t...

12
A: Two Answers - One Deleted - What's the difference?

BESWIt's absolutely crucial that game-rec questions draw on experience (your own or someone else's) with the querent's criteria. In your answer I see your experience with DFRPG, but no mention of having used DFRPG for Harry Potter games. That's really important, because otherwise your answer--no matt...

 
@ThomasMarkov yeah, it's getting upvotes regardless of the post notice
 
@NautArch I've not looked at all the answers yet
 
7
A: When do we close a question for drawing opinion-based answers and how can we try to get ahead of such closures?

mxyzplkWe should take a hard line on unsupported answers I don't like questions drawing large numbers of unsupported answers having to be closed either. But last time we tried the alternate path of deleting unsupported answers, that generated a lot more blowback, so here we are. We have solid guidance ...

^ That one actually says deleting unsupported answers caused a lot of blowback
10
A: Why was this answer to the question "Can a player choose to fail a spell's ability check contest?" deleted?

Someone_EvilIt is site practice to delete unsupported answers Admittedly it's never really documented/discussed on it's own, but mostly in the discussions around fun topics like game recommendations and designer intent requests. Specifically, when the questions type really needs supported answers, aren't get...

Actually of note, my own deleted answer to that ^
30
A: What are the citation expectations of answers on RPG Stack Exchange?

doppelgreenerStack Exchange is a rigorous Q&A community with a mission to build up a reliable knowledge base for future readers. It's sort of like Wikipedia in that regard. To accomplish this mission we need our answers to be clearly backed up so visitors can verify our answers for themselves. Without any cit...

Done finding links
Also apparently the need citation notice changed from including "Answers without enough detail may be edited or deleted." to "Posts with unsourced content may be edited or deleted."
 
@NautArch Apparently I do have a VLQ flag raised already.
Been pending 23 hours now.
 
12:58 PM
@ThomasMarkov I downvoted so I could flag as NAA (that feels like it should be a comment maybe?)
@ThomasMarkov lets not rush into deciding how to act
it may end up being a nuanced situation that requires more community involvement via meta etc?
 
@AncientSwordRage But why? It is a textbook example of what not to do according to our citation guidance.
The post owner also hasn't logged in since posting the answer. It is likely we have a drive-by answer that isn't going to be improved.
 
@ThomasMarkov oh, that one is probably more fair game for deletion than the other
 
@AncientSwordRage They are both equally unsupported.
 
@ThomasMarkov one is much higher quality
 
And I really don't see how there is any room to argue otherwise, which is why @linksassin's action confuses me.
@AncientSwordRage For what definition of quality?
If "properly supported" is at least of part of your criteria for "high quality", that answer cannot be called "high quality".
 
1:06 PM
if I were to write a meta post about it, it would be titled "How to salvage good quality answers that don't address the requirements of the question?"
@ThomasMarkov I guess it supports it's arguments with calculations but not with reference to lore
it could definitely be considered 'useful' to somebody, so it's upvoteworthy (by them)
 
@AncientSwordRage I see exactly zero calculations in that answer. It just throws a table with some numbers at you, giving zero context to them.
 
@ThomasMarkov hmmm that could be improved, but it's leagues better than "Everybody grab a bow, and that should fend of the dragon"... the table supports the conclusion, but the table isn't supported
 
Making up your own data doesn't count
 
@AncientSwordRage Sure, it contains more detail than "everybody grab a bow", but that doesn't make it a better answer if those details are just made up.
 
Oh look, my data fits. Because I made it fit.
 
1:10 PM
If anything, I could probably go do the work for them to support "everybody grab a bow" because I can go check the source material for something like that. I don't know where to start with these numbers because I don't know where they come from, or really even what they mean.
 
I'm seeing lots of talk about why it's not a good answer, but I don't think anybody's arguing it is?
 
@ThomasMarkov more detail more betterer though.... It's going to be easier for them to support the table though.. I'm throwing them a bone
 
The question is what action to take, if any, in response to its quality.
 
@BESW linksassin said it was.
 
@BESW My current thinking is we need to determine "Is this a bad answer or a non-answer"?
 
1:12 PM
@ThomasMarkov Linksassin said it is incorrect.
 
Fair, he did not say it was good. What he said was "FWIW I personally like your answer."
 
I mean, you can like something that's unsupported, you can like anything; it has no real meaning?
 
@ThomasMarkov thats why I feels like we should attempt to salvage it some how
 
@Medix2 I suppose.
@AncientSwordRage Why? cuz a mod said he liked it?
 
@ThomasMarkov I also like it
it's definitely underdeveloped
but it's got some workable pieces
 
1:14 PM
Probably because altruism and believing in the answer and not wanting to create a primarily negative experience for the answerer by deleting it?
 
we just need a) how did you get those numbers, and b) does FR lore support those numbers?
That's one path to salvaging it
 
@Medix2 If they want to support the answer, they are free to edit it and flag for undeletion.
 
Kind of feels like the community has chosen what to do here not quite sure why we're trying to stop that.
 
@NautArch the community can be wrong though
 
1:17 PM
@AncientSwordRage That would be a meta decision, not a chat one.
 
@BESW yeah I think that's a good conclusion from this discussion
 
@AncientSwordRage and other other members of the community are free to undelete. Doesn't seem like a man needs to step in and do something though.
There were no previous undelete votes by other statckizens nor by the user themselves. Not quite sure what the issue is.
 
No one is arguing that the answer is supported, right? The question here is not "is this answer adequately supported", the question is "should this answer be undeleted despite having exactly zero of the elements asked for in the citation guidance", right?
Just want to make sure we all agree on the location of the goalposts here.
 
1:33 PM
It's a lot more supported than I originally expected from y'all talking about it, and it's probably exactly what the querent was originally looking for.
Neither of which means it meets the standards of the Stack.
 
@BESW Considering that OP asked for 5th Edition and Forgotten Realms, and the answer appears to reference neither, I don't think it's exactly what OP was after.
Question: "What methods are expected to be feasible in the combination of system (as of fifth edition) and setting (northern regions of Forgotten Realms), that towns employed to protect themselves against dragons?"

Answer: Here's some ideas based on none of the sources you asked for.
It's not like 5e is implicit from the tag, and FR is implicit from being the default setting. OP explicitly asked for answers to be situated within the context of both 5e mechanics and Forgotten Realms lore.
Which that answer seems to make no attempt at doing.
 
I'd also say that the presence of the [lore] tag and the phrase "how did towns mundanely protect against Dragons" (as opposed to how might towns do it) means it is asking for canonical examples
 
1:52 PM
@Medix2 I caution putting too great of stock in using tags to interpret intent, especially when --as in this case-- they're tags added by other users
 
@BESW I had helped the querent craft that question, and it absolutely was asking for actual lore examples and not theoretical.
 
That's a good point, though I then wonder if "How might a town do X" is just idea-generation
 
@BESW That's kind of the point I was making. We don't have to assume intent from tags, as it is clearly stated in the body of the question: "What methods are expected to be feasible in the combination of system (as of fifth edition) and setting (northern regions of Forgotten Realms)"
 
@Medix2 Not necessarily. If they provide enough details of the town, we could look at lore to support an answer. That was kind of how it was originally, but I worked with them to narrow it down to a stackable question.
 
@Medix2 That's a big issue with Stack questions; we massage them into Stackability and sometimes that means they're no longer the question we actually want to ask. And when answerers are canny enough to tell the difference and provide solutions to the original question rather than the Stackable version, the Stack penalizes them.
 
1:58 PM
Well, Im going to go ahead and write up an answer based on chapter 4 of Icewind Dale, since the entire premise of the chapter is a dragon attacking small towns like the question asks about.
 
@ThomasMarkov Ha! Was just thinking about that. It's a bit of a different dragon because it's a construct, but still applicable. And pretty much would destroy any available town.
 
That's often the best response to an answer like this: write a better one.
3
 
Everything is simply based on time to destroy the town. More defenses is just more time.
And that's with a dragon that can't heal itself.
 
For some perspective, we have this great quote: "Bremen’s militia puts up a good fight, reducing the dragon’s hit points by 5."
5 hit points is a good fight for a militia.
 
@BESW Honestly I kinda want to star the idea of "See an answer you don't like? Write a better one!"
 
2:01 PM
@Medix2 That's usually a much shinier side of the same coin.
But we can both prune and improve. Better to do both than either one or the other.
 
Not everything that's wrong needs a mechanical sanction.
 
Sure, but that's why we have community votes. If the community votes to do it, than I see no issue.
 
2:40 PM
Posted my answer, which definitely invalidates all the numbers in the table of the deleted answer.
 
Updooted accordingly.
Still love how you gave up the town with defenses that threw you out to save the next smaller town.
 
@NautArch You reap what you sew.
 
@ThomasMarkov sounds like they got stitched up
 
Easthaven kicked me out of town, so we skipped them when it came time to face the dragon, and went straight to the town that was good to us.
 
> Their militia of over 250 soldiers was decimated
more than 1 in 10 got killed...
 
2:44 PM
@ThomasMarkov You may want to spoiler some of that stuff.
@AncientSwordRage I wouldn't assume WoTC knows what decimated actually means :P
 
also s/gest it right/gets it right/'
@NautArch you didn't quote WotC saying that, TM said it
 
@AncientSwordRage oh, nm then.
 
@AncientSwordRage that's an archaic definition according to my sources.
 
I could rant about "decimate"
 
@ThomasMarkov Yeah, because we suck at making meanings meaningful.
 
2:47 PM
Today I've learned someone can just repeatedly vote to delete an answer, and the delete votes don't get "used up" the way close votes do
 
@doppelgreener This is correct.
 
The meaning of a word changes as people use it in new ways; the word decimate does not, at all in modern use, have anything to do with "ten"
 
I could have sworn that there was a story about George Washington decimating his own army as punishment, but having trouble finding it.
 
@Medix2 Yeah, this is the first time in all my life I've seen the word associated with 10.
 
@Medix2 'they we're literally decimated' <-- even better
 
2:48 PM
@NautArch Washington, Washington.
 
@ThomasMarkov roots matter :P
 
12 stories high, made of radiation
If you haven't heard the George Washington rap you definitely should
 
@NautArch Tell that to unravel and inflammable
 
@Medix2 I don't talk to those two.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:06 PM
I just had one of those "I have no idea what I did but it worked" things happen.
I put most of this answer into spoiler blocks and preserved the formatting.
I have no idea why it works the way it did.
Did I just find a workaround for this question?
 
 
2 hours later…
6:26 PM
@TheDragonOfFlame The error (the one you are perpetuating with this line) is in asserting that there are only two kinds of classes: martial and spell casting. That stance is overly reductionist.
 
6:54 PM
This answer is now negative and can be delete voted at your discretion.
 
I don't think i've ever chosen an intersection on a grid as the point where effects start.
 
@NautArch yeah we havent been using that rule.
 
I don't think any table i've been at has used that rule :P
 
If you use some of the rules from XGtE you get contradicting rules.
In the DMG it uses the "at least half a square" rule, and XGtE uses a "any part of a square" rule.
 
7:09 PM
Using a grid intersection as the origin is useful for effects that are shapes with a given size/radius.
For example, if an effect is a 5-ft radius circle, what does that look like in your 5-ft square grid? If the origin is at an intersection, then it hits 4 squares (2x2). If the origin is inside a square, then it hits 9 squares (3x3).
 
hello
any one on?
 
Whats up
@Catofdoom2 Yes
 
7:28 PM
@Catofdoom2 Whoose on first
 
What's not up. What's on second.
Something's up, but then again, something's amiss. Two more misses and something's out.
Although if something's afoul, then they get a free walk to first, and then who will be on second.
 
8:19 PM
@MikeQ I thought that a foul means that the pitcher pitches again, since the ball wasn't put into play, but who knows? They keep changing the rules 😢
 
I suppose a discussion forum could be considered a survey. Research is research.
 
Can we support our answers here with surveys on forums?
Also, these aren't surveys. THey are articles written by individuals.
Top 10 commercials from 1995 isn't an actual list of the top 10 commercials (unless it's sourced from an actual survey or based on a value or something.)
@MikeQ And that works for building a question, but maybe not for an answer?
 
Depends on what the question is asking. In this case, the question is asking about a term that is somewhat defined by the D&D community, and the answer cites several forum discussions to sample data from the D&D community. Seems valid to me.
 
@MikeQ Fair enough. I'll just downvote and move on.
I disagree, and the fact that there are discussions in here on chat and under many questions as to what constitutes what seems to suggest it isn't a consensus.
Or that those who believe there is don't care about those who disagree.
But alas, you had voted to close and you were right :)
 
9:01 PM
@NautArch the question would be, support for what?
 
@doppelgreener for an answer on our website?
 
we don't have an allowlist for what is/isn't a legitimate source, so the question would be what the answer is using a discussion to support, and whether that discussion supports it
we use rule books to support statements about the rules, because those back up our statements
if they're citing a broad set of discussions to back up a broad statement about discussions, that's quite reasonable
that answer seems to be providing a survey of ways people have been discussing and categorising the classes to point to how people discuss and categorise the classes, and while it's not exhasustive (and can't be short of a team of paid staffers working for an extended period), it's quite reasonable
Some of the choices though are questionable, like a forum post with only one non-OP reply, and a quote of the OP only from a non-notable reddit thread
But they seem to be reinforcing a common thread that matches the conclusion of the answer, that people keep referencing the same set of classes (more or less) as martial, and the rest as not
 
If we're going to start asking soft questions that aren't rules supported or supported by experience seen or done and then can be backed up without those things, i'm not sure I'm so into that.
@doppelgreener Except for everytime someone disagrees (see chat and comments under many answers discussing this.)
But I've said my piece, if the community wants to open up, ask, and answer these with soft support like that, then that's the communities choice. BUt i'm going to keep on doing what i think is best as well.
 
@NautArch the guideline is that answers are supported by verifiable fact, not rules. we can point to "here's how people are discussing this thing, look, it's right there" as verifiable fact. we can also point to "in my experience, the terminology works this way and doesn't work when you use it this way".
 
Random people discussing these is not verifiable facts as far as i'm concerned.
If you see discussions are verifiable facts worthy of supporting answers, then we have a very different idea of what support means.
 
9:12 PM
but, hold on, the question is "What does [term] mean?"—if the fact is that people are consistently referencing [term] as meaning this particular thing, showing that people are consistently referencing [term] as that thing is factual citation.
 
@NautArch except these aren't random people, they're people with (some amount of ) d&d experience, and we have a community member collecting, sorting through and summarising these experiences
 
@AncientSwordRage By selecting data points that agree with them, yes.
IT's easy to prove your point when you are picking what you want.
 
@NautArch Well, sure! Confirmation bias is for the community to perform an acid test on.
But they are making legitimate citation.
 
As I said, I 100% disagree.
 
I'd also point to people citing the section of the rules that supports their interpretation when someone else might cite a different section that contradicts that same interpretation.
 
9:14 PM
@doppelgreener Sure, but then they are using an official measuring stick at least.
This is just opinions by people on the internet.
 
Official isn't the defining feature we look for!
 
But anywho, I don't think either of us are going to convince the other.
 
We're not D&D 5e Rules stack exchange!
 
@doppelgreener Don't give me that tired line.
But i'm stepping out of this conversation, feel free to talk amongst yourselves about it.
 
You're the one who just now said rules is fine because at least it's official!
That's a shockingly distorted way to view RPG.SE's work and standards
I'm stepping out too.
 
9:16 PM
@NautArch A term can generally have different use-cases in different in-groups. All community defined terminology may have different usage cases, and sometimes a definition emerges that the community at large will accept. "Where does grognard come from?" will convey the same question - differently phrased and aimed at a different focus of how that term reached its generally accepted meaning.
 
If you asked "what are the rules of Monopoly?" and got the rules written in the game, is that going to be helpful when you find out how people actually play? Or is it more helpful to know how people are playing the game by collecting the opinions of people on the internet?
I say both are valid
 
If you think that asking for that meaning is opinion-based, then you probably want to seek out all questions that ask for someone to define terminology for a broader group of people, and close them.
 
9:34 PM
@KorvinStarmast is it though? Some classes can cast spells (spellcasters) some cannot (martials). I suppose you could define martial class as “class that deals the majority of its damage not through spells”
 
 
2 hours later…
11:36 PM
@Thatguy Do you watch Rick and Morty?
Understanding the show and leaning heavily into it's style helps that dungeon along immensely.
 
@NautArch Speaking of which, there is actually a potential benefit of losing a butt being the chance that "the Order of the Buttless sees the character as a god and does whatever the character commands."
 
@Medix2 I shall add, been a bit since I ran that.
you da best @Medix2!
 
@NautArch I literally just ctrl+f'ed "butt"
2
 
Still kinda bummed I didn't get to finish it.
But not that bummed.
 

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