TeX, LaTeX and Friends - 2020-12-08

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12:08 AM

@DavidCarlisle Right and the next release will by after TeXLive 2021 so it should be safe. I'm currently occupied with PDF testing and Christmas stuff though, so I'll probably forget about it...

12:33 AM

What Vim plug-ins should I explore? I just installed rainbow parentheses.

2 hours later…

2:44 AM

@UlrikeFischer -- At the request of the OP, I posted an answer, but it's still a guess (and so identified). Your experience is that this is apparently incorrect, or at least incomplete. If you say so, I will be happy to delete it, but if you have anything to add, perhaps a better answer is possible. I really wouldn't like the present answer to be considered authoritative.

3 hours later…

5:22 AM

@PauloCereda ?? That cwac confused the cat.

Bore da - yn fuan!:56343615

6:22 AM

@cfr Bore da! Dw i'n hoffi caws XD

7:17 AM

@barbarabeeton loading the font before polyglossia is fine, this will set it in node mode too and so avoid the bug.

Stefan Kottwitz

@cfr Dw i wedi blino.

7:34 AM

@JosephWright With LaTeX PGF relies almost completely on xcolor to handle colors. However, I don't really know what your plans are.

@HenriMenke At the moment, 'get it right in the L3 code'; if and when I'm happy, I might look at pdftex.def, etc.

@cfr ooh quack :)

7:52 AM

@HenriMenke isn't xcolor mostly used for the color expressions? Isn't there some low level code in pgf to set fill and stroke colors?

8:23 AM

@HenriMenke I'm exploring using the colour stack for all colour: the idea is that with some backend updates it should work

8:56 AM

@DavidCarlisle No deal ...

9:17 AM

@JosephWright ?

@PauloCereda Regarding texdoc.org could you do me two favours? (1) Please enable HTTPS with HSTS. (2) Please self-host fonts and the iconify script. Privacy conscious users like myself will thank you!

samcarter_preparing_for_xmas

@PauloCereda Users can't wait to have Albatross in texlive :)

Thanks @samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz - albatross looks great! I can see it is from someone related to Tex Users Group, and I was hoping it is already in texlive, but I couldn't find it ... So I looked into compiling it myself, but it's in Kotlin, needs gradlew to build, and I'm not really a Java guy, so cannot do that either. Otherwise, I use the Python approach listed in jdhao.github.io/2018/04/08/matplotlib-unicode-character — sdbbs 1 hour ago

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas Thanks again for the chocolate.

@UlrikeFischer Yes, there is a handful of command to set the color, see 121.7 Color System Commands texdoc.org/serve/pgf/0#subsection.121.7

samcarter_preparing_for_xmas

9:35 AM

@HenriMenke You're welcome! If this boring pandemic is over, I'd be happy to meet for a coffee or something if you'd like.

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas Well, given the location we should probably meet for beer, but coffee is fine too :)

@HenriMenke yes, and that is a part Joseph is working on: to have proper stroke and fill support in the kernel.

@HenriMenke I think @StefanKottwitz does the hosting. The current recommended deploy path uses Let's Encrypt by default. Judging by the changelog and the update date on texdoc.org I assume it still does not run version 0.3.0 or later as the updating fix seems to be missing.

Stefan Kottwitz

9:53 AM

@HenriMenke @TeXnician The docker image supports HTTPS now, as also I asked for it, I'm planning to update it on texdoc.org too. Fonts and scripts are a IoT topic.

samcarter_preparing_for_xmas

@HenriMenke Beer should indeed be findable :)

@DavidCarlisle Boris off to Brussels ... to 'charm' people!

samcarter_preparing_for_xmas

user image

@PauloCereda ^^^ :D

@JosephWright What's your opinion? How bad (or good) do you think it's going to be?

@JosephWright silly me, I thought being here it was tex related comment:-)

10:05 AM

@DavidCarlisle :)

@HenriMenke I've been saying No Deal for several years ..

@DavidCarlisle same, somehow I thought of some TUG-person named Boris... :)

@Skillmon he'd make a better job

2

@DavidCarlisle :)

@HenriMenke I think 'not great for us' - I can't see a deal that satisfies the 'take back control' aspect

@HenriMenke Ack. :) @StefanKottwitz unfortunately does not host the latest version -- Stefan, could you deploy our latest version, if possible? :) The recommended setup is one with Let's Encrypt HTTPS enabled. Self-hosting fonts and scripts will be part of the next version, we just have to adjust our build process so that we don't have to have them as part of our repository. :)

@DavidCarlisle I don't think he'd make a better job in Brexit (I don't think he'd want to pull through a Brexit at all, but that's speculative, I never had personal contact to him)

10:07 AM

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas ooh

@HenriMenke also, Stefan still runs a version with broken auto-updating, so... Stefan, could you deploy our latest version? :)

@HenriMenke thanks for the feedback. <3

@Skillmon it's not possible to make a better job of brexit just try to mitigate some of the worst aspects of a self inflicted disaster.

@DavidCarlisle Sounds about right

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas albatross is broken with Windows because of paths.. Akira reported it to me, so we already have a fix. We are just giving the final touches. :)

@DavidCarlisle /poke

ooh Brexit vibes

@StefanKottwitz oopsie, sorry, I should've have read chat messages before writing. :) Thank you very much! <3

Also.. did someone say chocolate?!

samcarter_preparing_for_xmas

@PauloCereda :) trying to fit in with the rest of the broken windows ecosystem?

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas quite! The ultimate fix would be ditching Windows for anything decent. :)

samcarter_preparing_for_xmas

10:13 AM

@PauloCereda :) Yesssss

@JosephWright ooh Brussels sprouts

@PauloCereda You can just copy the assets into the container at build time. Docker's ADD supports URL sources.

@JosephWright Very grim outlook. I think in a sense the pandemic came at the right time for Brexit, because any economic downturn that would be caused by Brexit will be completely overshadowed by the massive economic fallout from COVID.

samcarter_preparing_for_xmas

I suggest to sent this competent politician instead: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_(cat)

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas just why? Why do Brits have famous cats in politics?

samcarter_preparing_for_xmas

@Skillmon Isn't the better question: why don't we have them?

10:26 AM

@PauloCereda there isn't a native cygwin java (as far as I know) so i use a windows java in cygwin (which is a pain:-) but:

$ pwd
/c/users/davidc/Downloads

$ java -jar osname.jar
Windows 10

$ uname -a
CYGWIN_NT-10.0 dc-bantham 3.1.5(0.340/5/3) 2020-06-01 08:59 x86_64 Cygwin

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas I'm not sure about this. While it's a funny and lovely thought, it's bewildering at the same time. I think I prefer a government which tries to act serious, not funny.

@Skillmon I don't know. Do you have to be serious to be competent?

@Skillmon You ain't seen nothing yet. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Buckethead

@HenriMenke I knew that one.

@Skillmon And after all, we have Die PARTEI.

10:40 AM

@Plergux not necessarily, no.

@HenriMenke yes, but Die PARTEI ist gut.

@HenriMenke also Die PARTEI \neq government.

@Skillmon Martin Sonneborn is a MEP, so not national government, but some government.

@PauloCereda and from wsl

$ java -jar  /mnt/c/users/davidc/Downloads/osname.jar
Linux

@HenriMenke I know.

@HenriMenke It's a shame Lord Sutch is no longer with us ...

11:04 AM

@HenriMenke ...don't get me started with italian examples --- some of them are even NSFW. Random selection of MPs can't go worse...

@Plergux I agree --- the big problem is when they are funny but don't realize that. ;-)

@Rmano You mean they're more laughable than funny. :p

@Plergux yes, better word, right

samcarter_preparing_for_xmas

@Skillmon I don't think serious politic and a sense of humour have to be exclusive. If anything this would make them more human.

@Rmano Once I was talking to colleagues over lunch and someone said “Is there any lower point than Donald Trump?” and one Italian colleagues answered “Yes! It's called the Berlusconi point”.

11:23 AM

@HenriMenke Well, they'll always have Ciccolina. :p

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas sure, but that cat thingy is bewildering me. I can't really explain why. Perhaps it's just too much for me.

samcarter_preparing_for_xmas

@Skillmon If the cat is too much, we could start with a mouse :)

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas I think a duck would be better, ducks are serious creatures.

11:43 AM

@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle Expect checkins: I think I've just about got the color stack stuff covered

12:07 PM

@Plergux that was the NSFW thingy --- I tried to find a fun link but they were all NSFW (obviously)

Even the wikipedia one is borderline ;-P

@Rmano Heh heh heh... I think she's just in general not a very NSFW person. :p And probably proud of it!

12:31 PM

@DavidCarlisle Thanks!

samcarter_preparing_for_xmas

@Skillmon A duck is a good compromise. sokks.com/blogs/blog/…

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas ooh

@UlrikeFischer around? :)

@MarcelKrüger Please, would you be willing to discuss some ideas around font caching with me, considering Overleaf? If so, would you prefer if I send you an email explaining the issue and list the questions, or maybe hop on a call? Or other media? Thanks :)

@PauloCereda not at the computer now, but I will be back in 30 minutes.

@UlrikeFischer ah okay, I'd need your assistance to test something, if possible. :)

samcarter_preparing_for_xmas

12:43 PM

@PauloCereda Testing how to replace a windows installation with fedora?

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas shhhh :)

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas sounds like a good plan, I second you (as in someone, not as in 2nd person) should test this! :)

samcarter_preparing_for_xmas

@Skillmon Been there, done that, am happy since years :)

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas see edit :)

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas just realised that it wasn't clear.

samcarter_preparing_for_xmas

@Skillmon :D

12:48 PM

@PauloCereda albatross? It was installed this morning but I couldn't look yet.

Stefan Kottwitz

@PauloCereda No worries, you know what I'm working on too ;-)

@UlrikeFischer There are some... issues I'd like to address :)

@StefanKottwitz <3

1:02 PM

        __ __           __
.---.-.|  |  |--.---.-.|  |_.----.-----.-----.-----.
|  _  ||  |  _  |  _  ||   _|   _|  _  |__ --|__ --|
|___._||__|_____|___._||____|__| |_____|_____|_____|

albatross 0.1.0
Copyright (c) 2020, Island of TeX
All rights reserved.

woo

@Skillmon <3

@PauloCereda just updated my TL :)

@Skillmon <3 we need a fix for Windows, in the works already. :)

Stefan Kottwitz

@PauloCereda After decades, you will fix Windows?

2

@PauloCereda yeah, I secretly read your messages :)

@StefanKottwitz it's easy to fix Windows. 1. Insert a Linux bootable device. 2. install Linux from bootable device. 3. done.

2

1:05 PM

@StefanKottwitz I wish I could. :) On the bright side, I had a very old Macbook (mid 2007) which I could resurrect by running Fedora 33 + White Sur GTK theme, so it really looks like a MacOS machine!

@Skillmon ooh rabbits

1:36 PM

A friend told me about a talk he downloaded where you could click on a slide and get the audio explanation of it. Is that possible in latex?

@Anush which file format was your friend's talk?

@PauloCereda I am guessing it was powerpoint. But I want to write a talk now for use online in latex/beamer

it seems like a good idea

@PauloCereda I'm back.What should I try?

@UlrikeFischer Will poke you. :)

@UlrikeFischer Skype poke. :)

1:51 PM

@PauloCereda from which direction will the poke come?

@PauloCereda then wait a minute, my laptop and skype have some communication problems, I always get logged out

2:48 PM

@UlrikeFischer ooh <3

3:09 PM

@Anush should be with media9 (but I have no experience with it, perhaps ask @AlexG)

@Skillmon <3

@Anush Do you want to install the presentation on a web server? And users watch it online in the web browser?

@AlexG <3

@Skillmon <3

So many carrots lately <3

@Skillmon You deserve lots and lots <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

@PauloCereda A cupcake for you: E3

3:19 PM

@PauloCereda /fat rabbit

3:44 PM

`texdist --current` seems to work fine for me. But `texdist --list` returns nothing, not even an error.

I'm on a Mac running "TeXLive-2020" (according to `texdist --current` :-) )

Might I have something installed incorrectly?

3:59 PM

@dedded texdist? (not a command name I recognise)

It was referenced in
/Library/TeX/Choosing\ a\ TeX\ Distribution.rtf

It's located at /usr/local/bin/texdist

It doesn't really matter, I was trying to figure out how I would switch back to texlive 2019 and was following links and found the .rtf file.

@dedded must be a mac-tex thing, I don't think I have seen it in texlive in cygwin or linux

@dedded Not here ...

@DavidCarlisle Is there a newer, perhaps tlmgr-driven, way to switch texlive to an older year?

@dedded Did you install using MacTeX or 'vanilla' TeX Live 2020

@dedded You just set the path using the 'magic' in paths.d

4:07 PM

@dedded since I install them in the default /usr/local/texlive/2020, /usr/local/texlive/2019 etc, nothing special is needed just set the PATH and I can test any one I have (which is 2016-2020 currently)

@DavidCarlisle :( only 2018-20

samcarter_preparing_for_xmas

@Skillmon Could be worse, I only have 19+20

@dedded At the Terminal, what does ls /Library/TeX/Distributions report?

@dedded Have you got the TeX Live Utility installed?

@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle Part-way thorough the colour stuff: I've committed to master; it covers some aspects of the stack, just need to think a bit more about drawing colour (I'm wondering if using the stack might be an issue)

/etc/paths.d/TeX has /Library/TeX/texbin
which is a symlink to Distributions/Programs/texbin (in same directory)
which is a symlink to ../.DefaultTeX/Contents/Programs/texbin
where the "Contents" component is a symlink to ../TeXLive-2020.texdist/Contents

So it looks like that last symlink is what would need to change (or I could just put /usr/local/texlive/2019/... in my path).

With all those symlinks, I thought there would be some utility that managed them.

@dedded There is: TeX Live Utility

4:14 PM

This is MacTex

@dedded Yup: I think for TL'20 you might need to download it separately

Yes, looks like I have tex live utility, which appears to be a GUI.

@dedded Yes, that's what you use to set that stuff

@JosephWright OK, but if I ever really had to do it, I could just change /etc/paths.d/TeX? That seems simpler.

@JosephWright the \pdfcoredict_gput should be renamed to the new name \pdfmanagement_add.

4:19 PM

@UlrikeFischer Ah, right

@dedded You could, yes, but why?

@dedded If you want to fiddle with the path, etc., I'm not sure why you are after a utility - it's there specifically to help GUI users (my own GUI-of-choice sets path internally, so I only need to worry at the Terminal)

@JosephWright I just saw that you actually implemented the \sys_get_shell:nnNTF { extractbb~--version } idea. So it will be always active? What happens if someone has disable pipes (or doesn't have extractbb for some odd reason)?

Presumably I would only ever switch if there was a problem with 2020 and a document that I needed to compile. I keep the current and one previous texlive installation, just in case. I've never needed it, but was curious what I'd need to do if I did.

I'm not so much after a utility, I followed `which lualatex` and followed the links, and found the .rtf file which described `texdist` (which I've just noticed dates to 2014, whichis when I got the machine.)

@UlrikeFischer They get the F branch, which sets the int to 0

@UlrikeFischer extractbb is dvipdfmx, so they'll be in real trouble

twitter.com/kocienda/status/1336344119245881346

Er ... hope he didn't mean l3build

@AlexG ooh

@dedded The whole setup is based around the TeX Live Utility, like I said: I'm on a new Mac so only have TL'20 installed 'natively', but I know in the past it was v. handy. (I do have lots of TL versions, but on my Windows VM)

@UlrikeFischer Fixed: do we have a fold-back plan yet? I guess depends still on zref-stuff

@UlrikeFischer I did say I would ;)

4:30 PM

@JosephWright depends on what is available ;-) On my system it doesn't depend on zref anymore.

@UlrikeFischer Well yes ...

@UlrikeFischer I'd like to fold stuff back ASAP: we need to allow testing beyond you, me, @DavidCarlisle ...

@JosephWright Thanks, Joseph.

@UlrikeFischer I want to sort colour later today: I'm thinking about the stack. Then I might look at this again

@UlrikeFischer Might want to get @HenriMenke's thoughts (or @DavidCarlisle's): is there a technical reason that drawing elements in pgf don't use the colour stack, or is it simply that when he wrote it, Till couldn't use the 'standard' methods as they were not available in dvipmdfx and v. hard to pull off in dvips? (Fix for the latter thanks to @DavidCarlisle)

@JosephWright I'm not at home at moment will be home (and online more) after this evening

@DavidCarlisle Cool: no rush

4:33 PM

@JosephWright me too. I would remove the "x" everywhere and then move it to l3experimental. Apart from the small issues I added I think it is sound.

@DavidCarlisle I have to nip out after a work meeting, so won;t action anything just yet

@UlrikeFischer Sounds good to me: probably my next task (we are getting very close to being able to swap out graphics-def entirely ...)

@UlrikeFischer Issue?

@UlrikeFischer I'll perhaps look at a PR: the best way to add new stuff now

Speaking of which: everyone looking forward to regex-based \NewDocumentCommand stuff? Bruno is I think on it. (@egreg in particular will be pleased)

@JosephWright in the xref repo. When I saw something missing I collected it there.

@UlrikeFischer Ah: I'll look

@UlrikeFischer I can get to the issues from my Git GUI :)

@JosephWright god are you fast ;-) All came up in the "real world": I have converted all zref usages in tagpdf, in the hyperref driver and the pdf management (and I do like it there is no longer a conceptual difference between "label by props" and "label by list", it is clearer so).

@UlrikeFischer Cool

@UlrikeFischer Like I said, colour first, then I think zref is the must have

4:50 PM

@JosephWright I guess so. But this opens the path to very nonstandard syntax!

@JosephWright I just tested \sys_get_shell:nnNTF {extractbb~--version }{}\l_tmpa_str{}{}: in miktex if one use --disable-pipes it errors: ! I can't find file "|extractbb --version"'.. In texlive I think the option doesn't exist. --no-shell-escape returns an empty string and false, but doesn't error in both systems.

@dedded The safest way is to use TeX Live Utility

@JosephWright @DavidCarlisle:

`This is TeXDist, (C) Gerben Wierda, 2006
TeXDist is an interface to multiple TeX distributions on your system, using
the TeXDist description structure.`

So it's an ancient Perl script. I don't think it's in use any more.

When I do texdist --list it lists 2013-2016 but nothing later than that.

The Mac used to have a control panel thingy to switch distributions. This might be the underlying script that it called. It disappeared some time ago and the functionality was added to TeX Live Utility instead.

@AlanMunn ooh it's like St. Malachy's prophecy for TeX distros. :)

YAPM?

@JosephWright See my answer at tex.stackexchange.com/q/573067/4427

@PauloCereda Yep. ;)

4:58 PM

@AlanMunn ooh :)

@PauloCereda "Most scholars consider the document a 16th-century elaborate hoax."

@AlanMunn ooh

@egreg That is an issue (@HenriMenke already pointed out that one might argue for not even having d-type)

@JosephWright Well, the simple types are easier to deal with.

@AlanMunn I don't have it: like I said, new Mac, just TL'20

5:06 PM

@AlanMunn GWTeX was discontinued in 2006, AFAIR. On my office machine I have TL from 2007 on.

@egreg Yes, but I think this script worked for longer than that.

@AlanMunn I guess so. The control panel was based on GW's work.

@AlanMunn Anyway, it's simpler to call /usr/local/texlive/2012/bin/x86_64-darwin/pdflatex to run TL 2012 instead of switching to the distribution with TLU.

@AlanMunn Magic of the kpathsea library.

@UlrikeFischer Sigh: this was the business about having to check we can read, but that meaning we have to run the same tool twice

@UlrikeFischer Ideally we'd have a primitive to see if it's turned on, as at least then we'd only have a shell error if the tool is not available

@UlrikeFischer We could for the present have a switch to turn it off 'manually'?

@UlrikeFischer I don't think TL splits out pipes from shell escape, like you say

@egreg Wow!

@JosephWright I could ask Christian if there is a test for pipes.

@UlrikeFischer Why don't you ask Jewish or Buddhist?

(sorry my brain is burned out for today and only gibberish is bound to leave it)

5:15 PM

@UlrikeFischer Good plan: perhaps there is one

@Skillmon /hugs

@PauloCereda <3

@Skillmon <3

carrot exchange!

I'm looking for useful Vim plug-ins that would work well with vimtex. Any recommendations?

5:24 PM

@LaTeXereXeTaL I can recommend general plugins. :)

@PauloCereda do you think I should suggest emacs ^^]

@DavidCarlisle he asked for useful things.

@DavidCarlisle I wondered how long that would take

@DavidCarlisle you are mean

Jun 29 '17 at 16:15, by Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle you are not mean :)

5:25 PM

I installed rainbow parentheses.

@DavidCarlisle oh

   3   │ Plug 'godlygeek/tabular'
   4   │ Plug 'itchyny/lightline.vim'
   5   │ Plug 'sheerun/vim-polyglot'
   6   │ Plug 'sainnhe/edge'
   7   │ Plug 'preservim/nerdtree'
   8   │ Plug 'psliwka/vim-smoothie'
   9   │ Plug 'mhinz/vim-startify'
  10   │ Plug 'tpope/vim-surround'
  11   │ Plug 'preservim/nerdcommenter'
  12   │ Plug 'luochen1990/rainbow'
  13   │ Plug 'teto/vim-listchars'

@LaTeXereXeTaL ^^ these are the ones I use in this machine :)

@JosephWright Now you understand why I insisted for a new release. ;-)

@egreg Rep harvesting?

@PauloCereda I've seen lightline and nerdtree. I'll check the others too!

@JosephWright ooh :)

@LaTeXereXeTaL I highly recommend using a plugin manager... I use vim-plug

5:28 PM

@PauloCereda Me too!

@LaTeXereXeTaL also ALE is interesting (not necessarily for TeX, but for general programming)

@LaTeXereXeTaL ooh :)

@Skillmon Okay I'll look at that too. I've seen it mentioned.

@JosephWright A one-liner instead of complicated code.

@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle (@HenriMenke) Looking at colour in pgf, I see that Till uses his 'protocol' idea here: the colour along with everything else is held in a macro. Perhaps that as much as anything is why he's not used the stack.

@egreg Yes, I get that: of course, as pointed out, that makes it easy to generate problematic interfaces ...

@egreg I think the balance is about right: some regex grabbing is fine

5:32 PM

@DavidCarlisle I've nothing against emacs. I just couldn't get accustomed to it.

@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle (@HenriMenke) At present, I've not implemented 'protocols' at all: I think they are mainly needed for arrows and decorations. I'm not 100% sure they are needed

@JosephWright I have seen protocols mentioned but didn't yet understand what they are doing, I would have to trace and see some of their content first.

@UlrikeFischer OK, I'll explain :)

@UlrikeFischer What Till does is to take the various drawing instructions and hold them in a macro, so when you have e.g. 'moveto', a XXX m is added to a token list. Only when something needs to be 'finalised' is anything actually passed to a special.

@UlrikeFischer That means almost all drawing instructions are written in one-line-per-path \pdfliteral or a 'raw' \special. Looking again, colour is the same: we might in PDF terms have something like 0 0 m 1 1 l 0 1 0 RG 1 0 l n or whatever, build up from a move, a line, a colour op, a line and a close-path

@JosephWright so instead of \pdfliteral{a}\pdfliteral{b} he does \pdfliteral{\mymacro}?

@UlrikeFischer That's the one

@UlrikeFischer The idea is you can then save the \mymacro as a pre-constructed 'thing'

@UlrikeFischer I suspect most of the time objects can be used just as well, but I've not yet done the work (and they don't inherit surrounding colour ...)

5:41 PM

@JosephWright how does one reuse a pre-constructed thing? Does pgf store the info what \mymacro is about? Is there something like a "this is a red arrow with blue line in the middle" description?

@UlrikeFischer We are at the limit of what I've looked at :) I think it stores 'this is a decorated line' or similar

% This package provides the pgf system protocol layer. Protocolling is
% used to record a bunch of graphic operations so that they can be
% reused quickly at a later point.
%
% Basically, all ``recordable'' \pgfsys@xxxx commands call
% \pgfsysprotocol@protocol for their protocolable literal
% specials. The literal text will either be stored in the current
% protocol. At a later point (actually, normally this happens
% immediately afterwards), the accumulated protocolled text is invoked
% using pgfsys@invokeprotocol.

@JosephWright sorry to ask ;-). I did look at this today too, and while the "accumulating" part is quite understandable I didn't get the "reused" part.

@UlrikeFischer Only used for arrows and patterns

@UlrikeFischer When I looked, I was minded not to do it ... like I said, I suspect I can use PDF objects instead, and avoid the hit in the output size, etc.

@UlrikeFischer Perhaps I should do patterns and arrows first, then look again at this (I'm reasonably serious)

@JosephWright well pattern are objects, and they have to be made only once and using them is cheap. But arrow tips are probably not xobjects in pgf but long literal strings?

@UlrikeFischer Yes, I think so

@UlrikeFischer Probably I can risk changing the backend: if we need protocolled stuff, that goes 'in between' the current interfaces and the backend anyway

@UlrikeFischer Perhaps I'll do zref first: clearer target :)

6:12 PM

@JosephWright ;-) but I wondered about the remark about the space command and the latex layer: it does write to the aux which is latex specific. Should one separate this and allow also other outputfile?

6:47 PM

@DavidCarlisle polygon.com/2020/12/8/22163526/…

7:34 PM

@DavidCarlisle quack

Nov 8 at 15:14, by David Carlisle

@PauloCereda dinner

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@egreg Any comment on tex.stackexchange.com/questions/573663/…?

7:50 PM

@JosephWright "Didn't we learn anything using Excel with large numbers?" :)

@PauloCereda :)

8:35 PM

@UlrikeFischer How does the internal abstraction look to you for color stacks?

8:46 PM

@UlrikeFischer But the \label interface itself is in the document: being tied to 2e doesn't mean that code and interface shouldn't be separated

1 hour later…

10:01 PM

Anyone have thoughts on Ierusalimschy's Programming in Lua book?

@JosephWright how does one initialize a new color stack? I can't find it in l3backend_color. Is this somewhere else?

@UlrikeFischer Ah, drat, forgot about that for dvidpfmx: give me five

@dedded it's essentially the official Lua reference manual. lua.org/pil

@UlrikeFischer Just checking the refs

@JosephWright there are two variants (as with pdftex):

\special{pdfcolorstackinit 1 page direct (0 g)}
\special{pdfcolorstackinit 2 direct (0 g)}

10:09 PM

@UlrikeFischer Yes, but at the moment I've keeping things simple: I'll just abstract the basics

@UlrikeFischer I'm just working out an interface (unless you want to)

@JosephWright every interface is fine, I think one need both (page and non-page stacks), transparent is a page stack, but imho the footnote color is not.

@UlrikeFischer I was just trying to cover the starting point ...

@UlrikeFischer OK, I might need a little time: I'm just thinking about how best to do this

@UlrikeFischer Does one actually need the page keyword? Isn't it the default?

@JosephWright what do you mean by default? The two stack variants work differently.

@UlrikeFischer I mean that the page keyword seems to be optional: from my reading of the pdfTeX manual, \pdfcolorstackinit {...} is the same as \pdfcolorstackinit page{...}, so it should be the same in dvipdfmx

@JosephWright it is optional, but it changes the behaviour of the stack. you need page, if the color/graphic state should be reinserted on the next page: "Optional page keyword instructs pdfTEX to restore the graphic at the beginning of every new page."

10:23 PM

@UlrikeFischer Isn't that what happens anyway?

@JosephWright but I think some command with the arguments N (for the number), n (options page/direct) and n (for the default/first value) should work fine.

@JosephWright no, you can also have a stack which isn't reinserted at the next page. As I wrote: pdfcol/pdfcolfoot uses non page bounded color/graphic stacks.

10:53 PM

@UlrikeFischer Isn't that direct though? Or something else entirely?

@UlrikeFischer I guess if we keep it internal, yes

@UlrikeFischer Might take until some time tomorrow but I'm on it; I'm just pondering a little

@JosephWright "direct" avoids that a transformation matrix is set (like in \pdfliteral)

@UlrikeFischer Yes, I get that, but does it matter?

@JosephWright no rush.

@JosephWright which one?

@UlrikeFischer I'm also trying to get a feel for the 'standard' stack

@UlrikeFischer direct: the cm shouldn't have any effect, it's just the 'it's not a page reset' business

@UlrikeFischer If purely internal it's no issue, it's more if we need something outside of l3backend at some stage

@JosephWright transparent and pdfcol both use direct, and for colors this is imho sensible. As these stacks can be used for all sorts of graphic states I wouldn't exclude categorically that there isn't a use case for a "non direct" imaginable, but setting direct for now is probably fine.

11:03 PM

@UlrikeFischer Like I said, only really important if we want a more public interface

@UlrikeFischer Could you check whether you have to init color stack 0 under dvipdfmx?

@JosephWright yes without the init this gives simply black:

\documentclass{article}
\begin{document}
\special{pdfcolorstackinit 0 page direct (0 g)}
\special{pdfcolorstack 0 push (0 0 1 rg)}
\special{pdfcolorstack 0 current}
blue
\newpage
should be blue

\end{document}

@JosephWright that is different to pdflatex. Good catch.

@UlrikeFischer Is there any reason to omit direct?

@JosephWright I don't know one currently, but as I said I won't exclude that there is one ... perhaps @AlexG has an example where it matters.

11:20 PM

@UlrikeFischer \__kernel_color_stack_init:Nnn added for the present

@UlrikeFischer A few checks to I hope get something about right

@JosephWright I wonder if the implementation in xdvipdfmx is right. Which color would you expect here on the second page:

\documentclass{article}
\begin{document}
\special{pdfcolorstackinit 1 page direct (0 g)}
\special{pdfcolorstack 1 push (0 0 1 rg)}
this is blue
\special{pdf: bc [1 0 0]}
this ist red
\newpage
and this?
\special{pdf: ec}
\end{document}

@dedded I have it. Not exactly my cup of tea, I particularly prefer Beginning Lua programming from Wrox.

@JosephWright Now LL looks like Windows XP, including one of those adware toolbars for IE. :)

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