TRPG General Chat

2:00 PM

I do not think it's reasonable. We're not a community that's actually trying to vie "A! no, B! No, A! No, B!" — we're a community that's just trying to find what works.

Alleging that we're just going to experience the exact same in reverse afterwards is exactly a discouraging assertion that makes people dread engaging in the topic or developing a way forward together.

NautArch

I think KRyan is saying (or at least my interpretation of it) is that historically we've seen the push and pull by mostly entrenched sides. Yes, there are those that move, but this is showing signs of entrenched positions by vocal users.

doppelgreener

Other topics show our actual pattern is "A? Yeah, A. Actually, maybe B. Yeah, that's good. What about C? That's even better, thank goodness we moved on from A and B. What about D? Nice, that's working."

NautArch

Yes, other topics of shown that, but this hasn't - or at least I haven't seen it here yet.

BESW

"It is what it is."

doppelgreener

@NautArch We haven't seen that history, though. We've had several topics starting from this current policy—there's never been a B taking over and then people wanting to go back, because A has only gotten more and more strictly enforced over time.

Thomas Markov

2:03 PM

@doppelgreener KRyan gives some relatively extensive commentary here: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/111179/2020/7/29

linksassin

@doppelgreener If it helps. I would happily switch to reverting the policy if and when I see a viable enforceable alternative. I don't support a wholesale reversion of the policy to allow any user to freely exercise their "expertise". I believe that will lead to many mistaken assumptions. And the current policy is the only one that I have seen that draws a line which is clearly defined.

doppelgreener

I am not even trying to revert the policy to nothing, let me be clear

NautArch

ANd honestly, it really is just 5e that seems to have this problem. Carving out an exception isn't unreasonable, but it does seem...icky?

linksassin

@doppelgreener I understand that, but it reverts it from a clear line to a blurry one. Unless we can clearly define that line I believe we will simply trade one problem for another one.

doppelgreener

There's many people saying "this isn't working for me" and many people saying "I want to keep doing things this way and don't want to go free-for-all", but there's not just two options in there, and I'm interested in finding out what will work for the community broadly.

@NautArch I don't think the problem is about D&D 5e, although that's where it's almost entirely showing up. We're not carving out an exception for D&D 5e, we're just approaching how to resolve this problem.

Bardic Wizard

2:06 PM

@AncientSwordRage ah. I suggest casting wish, then.

BESW

We've had a small but persistent assuming-the-system problem since before 5e was a wildly overpromised sales pitch.

doppelgreener

@ThomasMarkov I genuinely do not appreciate the lens at which KRyan casts the discussion and think it is, in fact, part of the harm being done to our discussions on the topic, including right there in that transcript, but I don't know how to express this in a constructive manner here right now.

the tldr being KRyan asserts he is not trying to stifle discussion, but he has specifically done exactly that multiple times in words and action

Thomas Markov

Maybe so, but I think its neither here nor there until he engages this time.

doppelgreener

it's extremely relevant

12 mins ago, by doppelgreener

Like, I need to level here. I don't think the fatigue about this topic is about revisiting it—there's lots of topics we've revisited. I believe the fatigue relates to the behaviour some people bring to the topic which acts to chill discussion.

BESW

New meta posts don't magically erase all the previous context.

Thomas Markov

2:10 PM

@doppelgreener So you agree with me when I said, "KRyan seems to be quite insistent that this isn’t the case, rather that the interlocutors who in various ways voice opposition to the policy merely represent an illegitimate vocal minority who are just bucking a well established, overwhelmingly consensual system."

BESW

I don't think that statement has anything to do with what Greener is talking about?

doppelgreener

I'm having trouble parsing that

Thomas Markov

KRyan has engaged in comments on the new post, so my statement about irrelevance is...irrelevant anyway.

BESW

🐘

Medix2

@NautArch I highly imagine a new user with an unpleasant first experience is going to stumble upon and participate in Meta to question the process they were required to follow :(

NautArch

2:14 PM

@Medix2 are we sure that they are even having an unpleasant experience?

Thomas Markov

@NautArch question closure when its obvious seems unpleasant tbh.

Someone_Evil

Maybe it'd be better if it just said "on hold" to indicate it being temporary/reversible? :p

BESW

Your sass has been recorded and reported to the Stack Overlords. Please stand by for extirpation.

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov wasn't to me when I first joined.

doppelgreener

@ThomasMarkov as far as the position that people objecting to the policy are illegitimate opposition, I've written a bit about that here: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/11?m=55102739#55102739

the policy itself suggests opposition to the policy is illegitimate, but that's ... not how our system's supposed to work

NautArch

2:17 PM

If folks balk at learning how a new place works, then they aren't really interested in joining.

2

doppelgreener

and there's no other basis on which to suggest people seeking policy change are somehow illegitimate in doing so

Medix2

@NautArch I was taking screenshots and documenting strife caused by the guess the system policy because all the comments (and questions/answers) kept getting deleted. And then my hard drive died

linksassin

@Someone_Evil I still fail to understand how that change was in the name of improving the user experience.

Someone_Evil

@linksassin The initial implementation or the reversal of it?

NautArch

@Medix2 was th querent generally involved in those comment chains?

BESW

2:19 PM

@NautArch The learning experience has been made arcane and obstructionist by the Stack Overlords, both deliberately and through neglect.

linksassin

@Someone_Evil The reversal of the "On Hold" messaging. To simply be closed. I find it to be much more permanent in the new guise and less encouraging to users to attempt to resolve it.

Medix2

@NautArch What they'll ball at is "I am using the Twinned Spell Metamagic on the Booming Blade Cantrip on my Lunging Attack Battle Master Fighter" "There are thousands of RPGs and we can't possibly know what you're talking about" " Oh, I'm playing 5e" "Do you mean 5e DnD, 5e Call of Cthulhu, 5e Masquerade?"

@NautArch All the ones I had were only with the OP

Like, I just ignored comment threads that involved long standing users just rehashing things in comments

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener I spent like 20 minutes trying to think of how to explain what youre getting at, then decided that was stupid when I could just copy paste your answer into mine.

NautArch

@Medix2 and the querent's got frustrated and left after that?

Medix2

@linksassin Didn't they give some statistics or something?

doppelgreener

2:21 PM

@ThomasMarkov i won't object to that

Someone_Evil

@linksassin Yes. As far as I understood it, they couldn't measure an improvement/benefit, so it got reversed to reduce system complexity (which is a general goal)

BESW

@NautArch Even I, as a dedicated avoider of 5e questions, have seen this be a source of frequent frustration (often turning to rather understandable name-calling) for the OP.

Medix2

@NautArch Or frustrated and left comments explaining as such and then not returned since

linksassin

@Medix2 Probably did, I just disagree with them. Most of their statistics would be based on larger sites like SO where perhaps the change made more sense. Here I would have prefer the On Hold version

doppelgreener

^ same

Medix2

2:23 PM

@linksassin Yeah... Fun with "Here's something that helps XYZ sites and uh... Yeah we have no idea about A-W"

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 I wonder how much of that can be improved by having more guidance in the pro-forma comments. If you give examples to drive towards giving both name and system, or for obvious cases simply ask whether it's D&D 5e (so we can accept a "yes") it might help that process

BESW

"Difference between 'On-Hold' and 'Closed'?"

doppelgreener

@BESW thank you! i can't imagine much. i need to fill out papers, find a place to move to, do viewings, pack up and move, etc, which is part of the trouble lol....

and i seem to have picked up influenza last friday, so i need to do all of that but also take it easy this week ~_~

NautArch

@Medix2 And in contrast, I wonder how many made the change and stayed.

@doppelgreener ohno. I really must go get the flu shot. I'm the last in my family, but looks like CVS has them now.

Thomas Markov

You can tell I feel really strongly about this because I used a h1 header in my answer.

BESW

2:26 PM

@doppelgreener I can provide encouraging and adorable memes, listen to frustrations and joys, and remind you to drink hot tea with lemon and ginger!

Medix2

@Someone_Evil I mean... I'm certainly tired of reading the word "querent" which is used approximately nowhere else; so much so that a user will likely need to search online what the word even means. And then I also worry that pro-forms comments (or maybe just internet speak in general) are inherently flawed to come across as condescending :(

People have previously expressed those points ^ I'm just stating them again

NautArch

@Medix2 We can use OP :P

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 Not sure how much the anecdotal evidence is worth, but we do get a lot of users who simply don't return to their first question, irrespective of how it was received. We also get some number who go "oh, sorry. Added. Thanks for pointing it out". Who I can't say how much this how we approch in each case, and how much is luck

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 Should I change "querent" to interrogatory user?

doppelgreener

@BESW thank you! i would like these things

Bardic Wizard

2:27 PM

@doppelgreener oh dear, hope you feel better! The flu season in my area hasn’t been that bad but tomorrow we move back into the higher COVID tier so a lot of things are about to shut down.

BESW

I had to look up what OP meant, it was completely foreign to my online experience prior to coming to the Stack. I knew what querent meant though, because it's a word I've read in books.

Medix2

@Someone_Evil Yeah agreed, which is why I don't think statistics help here at all

doppelgreener

i am dismayed that i have twice found a wonderful place to move to and then, also, it turns out the person whose room i'd be taking can't actually move out yet and has to delay. (but one of those places was just this past friday and it's because of work hiccups they're trying to sort out)

Medix2

Well, outside of something like "rarely happens"

@ThomasMarkov I just use "asker" or OP

Thomas Markov

Interrogatory user, got it. ;P

doppelgreener

2:28 PM

i find "querent" or "asker" more helpful than OP here, because OP can be an answer or the author of an answer, too.

BESW

(I regularly come across things that Stack users think are "common knowledge" but are actually limited to reddit/chan/tech circles.)

Thomas Markov

Answerogatory user?

Medix2

Yeah, I'll probably move towards just using "asker", since it's a building off a word everybody knows "to ask"

Thomas Markov

Askerogatory and Answerogatory I think are the best.

2

Bardic Wizard

@BESW funnily, I had only ever seen OP. It may be a generational difference though, I’m certainly much younger than like 90% of the people here

linksassin

2:30 PM

@Medix2 "Querent" is a precise term, "asker" is bad grammar. Perhaps it is slightly rare in every day usage but I prefer to use correct english and precise wording where possible.

Someone_Evil

I find querent more useful in some cases because "asker" is could also mean the person requesting clarification of a question

Bardic Wizard

@ThomasMarkov are they adjectives or nouns?

Thomas Markov

@BardicWizard Yes.

Medix2

@linksassin Bad Grammar? I... I will avoid going on tirade against the systemic and fundamental problems inherent to prescriptivism and acedemese

@Someone_Evil Time to use nothing but usernames XD

Bardic Wizard

@ThomasMarkov fine. Which are they, adjectives or nouns?

BESW

2:31 PM

I have no issues with "bad grammar." Grammatical precision is a bugbear of class-based education, inserting shibboleths to keep out the riffraff by pretending their language is somehow less effective at communicating because their dialect evolved in a different direction.

4

doppelgreener

(also genuinely this request I made earlier is one i'm making for my own health—I want to engage, but I need to not do that much, and I've been one of the most vocal people on the topic previously and that's not healthy for me nor the discussion especially when there's people trying to convey that my say is inherently illegitimate and doesn't count)

BESW

@Medix2 I gotchu.

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 Dont get me started, the thesis reviewer at my college kicked back my thesis for bad grammar about a grammatical construction that was entirely standard in mathematics literature.

NautArch

@doppelgreener just confirming I'm not someone who is conveying bthat.

doppelgreener

@NautArch no, you're not. just, well, some are

past history and meta context and all that

it's not happening here and now at all

all of this is long-term, and there is a stance that because I'm opposing it my voice doesn't count, and if that turns into "well just don't listen to doppelgreener, their voice specifically doesn't count" that'd be bad for me and the discussion

diversity of voices on the topic is important, not least because peoples' individual stances will vary and that's valuable, and individuals speaking up may bring novel ideas to the discussion that help us move forward in new ways

6

BESW

2:38 PM

@BardicWizard Yeah, I cut my Internet-community teeth on phpBB2 forums and pre-Russia LiveJournal, a few years before Reddit or YouTube.

Medix2

I keep thinking back to my post along the lines of "per question Metas shouldn't exist" and honestly, after having been helped out of having completely given up on this topic ever moving... The fact that people agree with that is... Alarming? Concerning? I don't know... I think about it a lot, but finding words is hard

BESW

@doppelgreener Oh gosh, I hope you can find a match with better timing soon! We'll assume that the others didn't work out because there was something about them that was going to be horribly wrong for you.

Bardic Wizard

@BESW for me it was the Scratch programming forums, a handful of other “started as school related” things, and later Wikipedia

doppelgreener

@BESW oh, yeah. london is very much a situation of lots of housing being pretty bad, so i need to find a place with a decent room that can fit a desk and a decent kitchen and good housemates, and those first two factors eliminate 90% of the market

but of the remaining 10% i've been having a lot of luck, so that's keeping me optimistic

Bardic Wizard

@BESW also, what’s live journal?

RevenantBacon

2:45 PM

Big city livin' is an OOF all around

BESW

@doppelgreener I offer this Hades fan art.

doppelgreener

@BESW thank you so much

Medix2

@linksassin I don't know if you wanted to, but I feel like this answer works well with your recent answer. Or at least, it takes the stance that there are reasons not to edit in a system tag even when we know the system

doppelgreener

why

BESW

@BardicWizard LJ was a blogging host platform, kinda like a stripped-down Wordpress or a proto-Facebook. People wrote diary-like entries on their pages and read each other's posts and commented on them. It had a very strong fanfic community that I was into for a while.

doppelgreener

2:48 PM

"we should not make edits even when they're obvious because it teaches people to do things for themselves" is a position we take on this issue exclusively

nevermind, you don't need to answer that, i am just frustrated by seeing that argument come up repeatedly

BESW

Then LJ got bought out by Russian oligarchs and everybody left.

linksassin

@Medix2 It's a reasonable answer but I'm not sure it adds anything I haven't already covered.

doppelgreener

@BESW also it banned tons of fanfics!

BESW

@doppelgreener Oh gosh, I remember the Days of Ricean Terror.

doppelgreener

Not just banned but overnight deleted thousands of accounts

Bardic Wizard

2:50 PM

@BESW ah. As a person who was probably not on the internet when that was a thing, it does sound interesting.

doppelgreener

And everything they'd ever written

That event is why AO3 exists

BESW

@BardicWizard Like, technically LJ is still around. But in the sense that MySpace is still around.

NautArch

@doppelgreener yeah, no reason to do that here. We can still put the edit in once they've said what to edit.

BESW

(LJ launched in 1999, was bought by Russian interests in 2007, which coincided with The Ficcer Purge, and they started moving to Russian servers in 2009.)

doppelgreener

@BESW what's the days of ricean terror?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

2:53 PM

The Rise of the Mother of All Vampires, presumably.

Against fanficcers.

Bardic Wizard

@BESW so... bought when I was less than 5. Guess that’s why I’ve never heard of it

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

(Spoiler: Not really mother of all of them!)

BESW

@doppelgreener Scroll to the last paragraph on this page.

doppelgreener

@BESW aha

Bardic Wizard

@BESW I’ve only read of myspace as a passing reference in a book once

BESW

2:57 PM

For many years there was a very tenuous truce between published authors and fanfic writers, because authors could get sued for IP theft if one of their novels strayed too closely to a ficcer's prior work in the same franchise. Then Anne Rice went on a rampage about other people getting their dirty fingers on her precious characters and got all fics based on her work stripped from major fanfic archives.

That tipped the scales of power toward published authors (well, publishers really) and began the era of aggressive "I own nothing, please don't sue" disclaimers, a toned-down version of which a lot of ficcers still use today.

For years, fanfiction communities knew that they were working in quasi-legal territory and if they attracted too much attention they'd get slapped with copyright infringement suits they couldn't afford to contest.

AO3 is a magical land of frolicking unicorns (and not the kind of unicorns that are lice-ridden and prone to stabbing you; the cute ones that rummage through your garbage) by comparison.

Bardic Wizard

@BESW ugh, copyright law needs an overhaul. Also I thought fanfic was classified under ‘fair use’?

BESW

In theory. But fair use is a defense, not a permission.

Fair use doesn't keep anybody from being taken to court. It's an argument you use in court.

These days published authors are just advised to avoid reading fanfic of their own works so they have plausible deniability about where their ideas come from, and most publishers consider fanfic part of a healthy audience community and a form of free advertising so long as nobody's profiting off it without cutting them in.

There's still some wild stuff (Fifty Shades of Grey comes to mind, as does the whole Omegaverse legal drama currently ongoing, both of which come with "Google at your own risk" warnings for explicit sexual content and glorification of physical and mental abuse.)

Bardic Wizard

@BESW this is why I will never willingly go into writing books. It’s a lot of deniability and ignoring things

BESW

Or just never write sequels. [grin]

Bardic Wizard

3:24 PM

True. Incidentally, @BESW, if you wouldn’t mind, I think you’re the last person currently active who hasn’t seen what happened in that pbp we’re doing?

Yuuki

@BESW I definitely remember when all those disclaimers started popping up.

Thomas Markov

@NautArch I'll bet 1 large pizza Tasha's does not clarify the new self range.

Yuuki

Even though I'm pretty sure they had no value/use whatsoever.

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov I'll take that bet. Just because giving/receiving pizza is always a win.

doppelgreener

@BardicWizard the only times i hear about myspace nowadays are when people are drawing comparison to it as a means of expressing irrelevance :D

Thomas Markov

3:29 PM

@NautArch If Tasha's clarifies this I'll buy you a pizza. Else you buy me a pizza. Do we have a deal?

Yuuki

either way, there's a pizza involved and maybe you guys can share it. sounds like a win-win to me

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov Well, I'm done with spell targeting XD

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov Deal! And I agree with you, but i'm totally fine buyingyou a pizza in the hopes they actually define it.

Bardic Wizard

@ThomasMarkov watch them half-clarify it in a way that prompts more questions than it answers...

Medix2

I might just say "Here's what Crawford intended; what you do should be whatever you want to do"

doppelgreener

3:33 PM

i was very confused who this Tasha was and what she needed to clarify before I realised this might be a spell

Medix2

@BardicWizard I was about to put my pizza on that option

@doppelgreener It's a new sourcebook

Thomas Markov

So if Tasha's makes this worse than it already is we buy @BardicWizard a pizza?

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov looks like we're most likely being them a pizza

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov No no, you each buy them half a pizza, utterly different I'm sure

Thomas Markov

@NautArch little aggressive on the space bar there bud

@Medix2 Is BardicWizard the target, or the pizza?

NautArch

3:37 PM

@ThomasMarkov always, my man

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov So NautArch is aggressive and the pizza is a BardicWizard... such times!

NautArch

i also think i type faster than the bluetooth can keep up

TheDragonOfFlame

drive.google.com/file/d/0B-Oc_Hm6mSAKVGc0YjJGS1E3VDQ/view

Thomas Markov

@TheDragonOfFlame please tell me what that is before I click it

TheDragonOfFlame

This homebrew is fairly cool and I wanted to discuss the ritualistic wizard subclass

this is homebrew subclasses for d&d 5e

Bardic Wizard

3:41 PM

@ThomasMarkov nah, but thanks for the offer (I can’t eat pizza)

TheDragonOfFlame

specifically one of the ritualist abilities allows you to make things into rituals; what spells would that be best with?

1 I think is mage armor

Medix2

@BardicWizard Can you eat gluten-free cheese-less pizza?

TheDragonOfFlame

Are you gluten free?

i am

:56136027

Bardic Wizard

@Medix2 I hate pizza, that’s the problem. I have lactose intolerance and a semi permanent hatred of tomato sauce so there’s not much point

NautArch

@TheDragonOfFlame I'm not so sure about that class balance.

Medix2

3:44 PM

The regaining spell slots seems scary; though... it does require doing something you otherwise won't often do...

Oh wait... I forgot about Expanded Ritual Casting. some of those might be cast as non-ritual spells more often than other rituals

NautArch

@Medix2 It does when you want one of those spells NOW

Thomas Markov

On the surface it seems woefully underpowered, but the mechanics are totally unique so they probably break something Im not thinking of.

Medix2

@NautArch Yeah but I can't imagine that happening enough times that the number of regained spell slots it alarming; though turning a 6th level slots into a 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st level slot is... scary

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov some of the new ritual spells are pretty strong. I used to protection from good and evil quite a bit for my paladin.

Medix2

Yeah... turning 6 levels of spell slot into 21 levels of spell slot is a lot

NautArch

3:48 PM

yeah, that too

If the spells really were more utility spells, i think that's a better use-case for those tags.

but the remainder of things are pretty odd.

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 hold up what

TheDragonOfFlame

Except that the expert ritualist feature mimics features of other wizard subclasses

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov Casting a 6th level ritual gets you a 5th level slot. Use that to cast a 5th level ritual and get a 4th level slot... and so on

TheDragonOfFlame

for example divination wizards have the same feature with divination spells

Thomas Markov

Youre reading it wrong

> When you cast a ritual spell of 2nd level or higher using a spell slot,

The 6th level slot is expended

Medix2

3:50 PM

@ThomasMarkov Yeah so cast a 6th level tirual using a slot

NautArch

@TheDragonOfFlame have you looked at divination spells? They're mostly not very combat-focused. At all.

Medix2

You get a 5th level slot which you can use to cast a 5th level ritual. and so on

One 6th level slot can be used to cast a 6th level ritual, 5th level, 4th, ... 1st level ritual

Thomas Markov

Right.

Medix2

All in a chain

TheDragonOfFlame

Yes but other schools have the same feature (I believe)

Thomas Markov

3:50 PM

You're right. That's borked.

TheDragonOfFlame

also non of these are combat focused either

Except for protection

RevenantBacon

@TheDragonOfFlame I don;t think they do

Thomas Markov

Ive never heard of this feature, or anything similar

TheDragonOfFlame

I’ll check

Someone_Evil

No, AFAIK the only patterned wizard subclass feature is the ones discounting the copying of spells of the given school

Medix2

3:52 PM

That's true, my thing definitely has this baked in assumption of one adventuring day somehow needing dream, stone shape, remove curse, arcane lock, and disguise self all in that order

TheDragonOfFlame

but also what spells do you think would work well as rituals, using the L14 feature?

Medix2

@TheDragonOfFlame jump and fly and invisibility I think

TheDragonOfFlame

Those would be good (though for fly spend 10 minutes for 10 minutes of fly wouldn’t be amazing)

NautArch

@TheDragonOfFlame false life, alter self, rope trick, faithful hound are all combat related.

Someone_Evil

Animate Dead?

TheDragonOfFlame

3:53 PM

And why cast jump when you could cast fly

Thomas Markov

Feather fall /s

Medix2

Well, I got a list of what would be my candidates

47 to read through now...

(imo, all the spells that last more than 1 minute)

glyph of warding XD

Someone_Evil

Catnap, dispel magic, glyph, tiny servant (this one I really want)

Medix2

@Someone_Evil I thought about catnap but it seems useless given that Arcane Reovery exists

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 link your list?

is it ddb?

Medix2

3:56 PM

@ThomasMarkov I'll try that

Uhh.. what is a spell subclass 0_0 "coming soon"

Hmm, I don't think you can filter by duration on DnDB

Thomas Markov

you can sort by duration

Medix2

But probably these sorted by duration. Until the middle of page 3 where they only last 1 minute

illustro

Can I get some input on this: rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/11289/…

NautArch

I'd be really war to give a lot of combat spells ritual tags. This really feels like it's more of a utility thing with Ritual spells.

@illustro i see the dupe war happened anyway

illustro

Apparently so

Medix2

4:12 PM

I changed the title, feel free to change it back

illustro

@Medix2 The title is clearer than my original one. I may modify it, but it was an improvement

The new new title is a further improvement

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 I would assume it's a feature they're implementing to let you filter/show by subclasses. Eg. which spells are on given domain lists, patrons etc.

Medix2

I changed the body, feel free to change it back XD

AncientSwordRage

I got so excited thinking tasha's made some old spells into rituals

The Oracle

-2

Q: More of a Statement than a question

I'm sorry that we got off on the wrong foot, as it's my first time in a forum such as this one. While I was banned from posting for 3 days, I found a more suitable forum, called Dragonsfoot.org where I can post questions as well as comment and post things other than very specific questions. I app...

bug

3

Q: Is this question actually a duplicate?

My most recent question has been marked as a duplicate twice (it was closed as a dupe, then reopened, then reclosed again) of this question. It is not, in my opinion, but would like to get some commentary on it. The linked question is asking about whether or not spells with a range of "Self" targ...

discussion specific-question duplicates

MikeQ

4:50 PM

@BESW I'm playing in a PF2 campaign. The AONPRD2 site has all the updated SRD information, but it's badly organized and its search feature doesn't work well, so I google "aonprd pf2 <term or query>" and that generally gets the information I need.

NautArch

5:34 PM

→ 14 messages moved to Trash

Thanks y'all

So...I finished all my fall leaf cleanup!

3/4 of an acre of leaves is a LOT of work.

MikeQ

Maybe you should invest in self-cleaning leaves. They sound more expensive but they require less maintenance over time.

doppelgreener

the R&D in developing them is only most of the cost

NautArch

It's also taken me way too long to figure out the optimal method of use the blower almost entirely to blow the leaves onto tarps first.

Mark Wells

What eats fallen leaves? rolls Knowledge (Nature) check, fails

Thomas Markov

@NautArch I'm a little offended by the notification I just received. "NautArch has invited you to join Trash." I see how it is. XD :P

KorvinStarmast

5:37 PM

@NautArch 5e is good enough if I have other contextual clues, but I've answered in that vein already in the past.

Mark Wells

@ThomasMarkov As a lifelong Oscar the Grouch fan, I take that as a sincere offer of hospitality.

MikeQ

Honestly I don't see the point in cleaning leaves. They just die off in the winter and grow back in the spring. Cleaning each leaf seems like wasted effort.

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov Well, I'm already in the Trash, so what does that say about me?

@KorvinStarmast yeah, 5e with contextual clues seems reasonable.

But i'm still on the fence.

@MikeQ I'll have a lot of dead grass otherwise.

Thomas Markov

@NautArch Why did you throw away a good fence?

NautArch

and just a constant layer of leaves instead of grass. I know this because my neighbor doesn't do any leaf cleanup.

KorvinStarmast

5:41 PM

@MikeQ I dethatched the lawn and raked leaves yesterday. I then put down fertilizer (last feed before winter, basically) ... but there is no way I'd clean all those leaves.

@NautArch will I add any value if I add that answer again? Maybe the question needs a frame challenge.

does the term 5e happen in a vacuum?

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast I...don't know

KorvinStarmast

when I was a kid, my dad use to burn the piles of leaves. Then, in the late 1960's, a city ordnance was passed and burning was not legal. (And we had neighbors who would narc people out) So my brother and I used to collect huge bundles of leaves in old table cloths or bed spreads and walk them over to the permanently wooded area, and dump them there.

We looked like that guy going to St Ives with Seven Sacks and Seven wives and all those kittens ...

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast We aren't allowed to burn leaves here. Can burn sticks/branches, etc. - but not leaves.

and I dump ours in our backyard that opens into woods

KorvinStarmast

When I lived in CT, burn ban was in effect.

Man, that's like 20 years ago.

Bardic Wizard

There’s a new leaf blower ban here on days with AQI higher than 100

As of yesterday.

KorvinStarmast

5:46 PM

Is that a noise measurement?

Or is that for gas powered blowers?

NautArch

@BardicWizard assuming electric blowers are okay?

Bardic Wizard

@NautArch i don’t know. I paid like 1% attention

@KorvinStarmast i think it’s related to air quality

KorvinStarmast

@BardicWizard makes sense

Bardic Wizard

6:00 PM

it’s air quality and health related

NautArch

wow, gas and electric

not sure I totally understand, unless it's about blowing particles up off the ground.

which it probably is

Thomas Markov

If that's not a commentary on destructive unrestrained capitalism, I dont know what is.

doppelgreener

@Someone_Evil If you're around, we could really do with a mod intervening on meta.

(stack says you're active a few seconds ago, idk if that's accurate)

Someone_Evil

I am, and I guess my blood sugar is now high enough to engage on it :)

doppelgreener

Thank you

Thomas Markov

6:04 PM

Sacramento's air quality sucks, let's ban leaf blowers instead of addressing the unregulated industrial complex that's polluting our air.

doppelgreener

Someone is trying to allege that the question is exactly exclusively about the single term "5e" and cannot be about anything else

to which i think I might point back to my comment suggestion to update the question

Bardic Wizard

I actually don’t agree with it cause it harms low income workers who do yard work for a living. Yes, it only affects them 34.4 days per year, but that can be the difference between making a living and not making enough to live on

Especially this year with all the fires

Someone_Evil

I have this weird feeling that everyone is jumping to answers and replies rather than actually thinking things over (and rattling it in the back of their mind). Maybe this is part of the whole "entrenched" problem

doppelgreener

@Someone_Evil Normally when I leave a meta post about a long-standing issue, I've already been thinking about that issue for weeks or months or years

NautArch

I stinks that it's not possible for us to handle this differently. Nominate a single person to write their proposal and then have the community vote on those proposals.

doppelgreener

6:10 PM

So my meta post is the result of already having done a lot of thinking

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov But now you can make a difference, don't you feel better about it now and don't want to discuss things further?

doppelgreener

But also, metas aren't usually an open collaborative space to work out potential solutions—they're a place for finalised definitive responses. So I think that's just, you know, a normal effect?

We could have an open brainstorming "so what could we do?" but that'd be a different kind of question

(and would similarly need to be without "but you can't" comments)

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener I tried to pour some oil on troubled waters, but it may just be fuel to the fire

(you know how I can do that, oh well)

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast honestly, it is a little inflammatory.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch The oh Dear part?

NautArch

6:17 PM

or at least, i'm reading the tone as that when maybe i shouldn't

But it just feels very snarky

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I may edit that out. I get so tired of this "but it's policy" stuff ... yeah, I need to edit that, I'll get to it.

NautArch

""I want a policy / I want a rule": is this short hand for "I don't want to have to think?"
Not always, but sometimes it sure appears that w"

It reads like you're very frustrated

which you probably are :)

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I am, and thanks to your feedback, I got rid of that. Yeah, no value added.

NautArch

I totally understand frustrated, it's more than reasonable at this point

KorvinStarmast

using policy as a bludgeon on this site sometimes gets me all grumpy ...

NautArch

6:19 PM

Would it help if I used my Dupe Hammer on you?

oh, read that as lumpy and thought a hammer might help bludgeon it straight.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Wait, that's getting Hit On The Head department, and I am in "I want a Meta" department

Arrgh, just read a news flash that a helicopter crashed near Sharm El Shiekh with a bunch of peace keepers on board ... fatalities ... 😢

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast ooof

Bardic Wizard

6:36 PM

@KorvinStarmast :-( that is horrible

Medix2

@NautArch Technically you could open a question, and close it so only clarifications can be made in comments and then open it some time later to formally accept answers

KorvinStarmast

@BardicWizard I guess some more details will be out in the next few days, when someone says "technical malfunction" and it's a helicopter, it could be one of a few hundred things ...

Medix2

@doppelgreener Yeah I was... annoyed at the question's phrasing :(

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener That someone has now engaged me with the starboard batteries, it seems, and is coming about to bring the port side batteries to bear. 🤣

"Stand by to repel boarders!"

"Give 'em a whiff o' the grape, Gunner!"

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast I really think him doing this is not OK

KorvinStarmast

6:49 PM

@doppelgreener I have decided to disengage, given my own experiences with a few threads / comment streams, that got kinda testy. Life's too short.

so I'll make a joke about it instead.

Wisecracks: my oldest coping mechanism for some of the things in life that make me grumpy

AncientSwordRage

@BardicWizard I think Mirage Arcane (level 7) almost works, but I'd want it to be 'real' not illusionary

Bardic Wizard

@AncientSwordRage I repeat my suggestion of wish, or possibly just wait until the next one, on December 14 of this year in various parts of the pacific

NautArch

@Medix2 i'm almost seeing this as a mod voting methodology.

but it also feels like this is overkill. Not an easy situation.

AncientSwordRage

Is there a D&D Build that relies entirely on reactions to do damage in combat? I was thinking of this because I was watching a MTG video about decks that do something similar

@BardicWizard I mean you can do most things via Wish, besides change SE policy, seems like overkill

Bardic Wizard

@AncientSwordRage it’s not always overkill

AncientSwordRage

6:56 PM

@BardicWizard when is Wish underkill?

doppelgreener

@AncientSwordRage when you could instead cast Even Bigger Wish

KorvinStarmast

@AncientSwordRage when you wish upon a star ...

Bardic Wizard

@AncientSwordRage anything involving deities

Medix2

@AncientSwordRage Now I wanna see hellish rebuke mixed with... uh... armor of agathys and... uh... Swashbuckler Rogue's Panache? Something that incentivizes "attack me"

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Add in Shadow of Moil, I suppose.

KorvinStarmast

7:03 PM

Why am I suddenly reminded of this song?

AncientSwordRage

I may have to ask, "what's the most damage a lvl20 character can do, without attacking on their turn?"

@KorvinStarmast because it's a good song

Mark Wells

@AncientSwordRage /prepares downvote finger

AncientSwordRage

@MarkWells I'm ready for that

KorvinStarmast

@AncientSwordRage And it reminds me of how many rings has my body-tree ...

Medix2

@AncientSwordRage Prepares upvote

Though remember that casting a spell isn't attacking, so you may want to reword/rework it. (Theoretical optimization is one of those things where sandboxes are good)

NautArch

7:19 PM

On one hand, Tim of Time's prose is really fun to read, but it's so hard to find the question sometimes.

MikeQ

@AncientSwordRage That's way too broad. What if they're making a deal with a powerful entity? Or they have a big red button that says "drop a piano on each creature in the multiverse"?

NautArch

@MikeQ holding an action, too.

that's reactoin

Medix2

@MikeQ Of course, you've also gotta check if the pianos are mimics

2

MikeQ

The question needs criteria about the character's immediate environment, otherwise it invites arguments like a CR 0 creature "causing" 20d6 damage by pushing someone off a cliff

Bardic Wizard

@Medix2 why would the piano be a mimic?

NautArch

7:23 PM

@BardicWizard why wouldn't it?

Medix2

@MikeQ I think there's a big general assumption that things like indirectly damage (fall damage and the like) don't count. But that could easily be stated

MikeQ

@BardicWizard The piano asked the same question.

Bardic Wizard

@NautArch well, there’s no evidence either way

Medix2

Though they also often come with a "How much free time do you have before combat starts" and what the monsters/creatures of the combat are allowed to look like; which should be somewhere

NautArch

@BardicWizard so you're saying there's a chance

Mark Wells

7:25 PM

@MikeQ CR 0 commoner with nuclear launch codes

Bardic Wizard

@NautArch there’s a chance. But it would not be logical

NautArch

Dumb and Dumber 'There's a Chance'

►

AncientSwordRage

@Medix2 oh absolutely needs tightening up

@MarkWells 1000 commoners passing a rock....

Thomas Markov

What did the sorcerer say when she used counterspell to stop booming blade? Okay boomer

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov followed by, crap, i wasted a third level slot on a cantrip.

Mark Wells

7:30 PM

What's the verbal component for a centaur casting counterspell? Neigh.

Thomas Markov

What's the highest level of spell a Zemnian Barbarian can cast? Nein

Medix2

@MarkWells Thanks for pointing out how weird it would actually be for a Centaur to neigh XD

Mark Wells

How about a minotaur casting counterspell? Nooooo.

Medix2

Wait... can 5e monsters just not use spell scrolls...?

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 Oh my.

Mark Wells

7:33 PM

Of course they can.

NautArch

@Medix2 doesn't it need to be on their spell list to use?

Thomas Markov

Cant have a spell list if you dont have a class.

Medix2

@NautArch Yeah exactly which is... oh wait some monsters do have class spell lists?

Someone_Evil

And there is a rule about how monsters count as that

Thomas Markov

Do they?

Someone_Evil

7:34 PM

MM p.10 (note errata)

Medix2

20

Q: What creatures can cast spells from spell scrolls?

The DMG outlines what it means to be a spellcaster: If the prerequisite is to be a spellcaster, a creature qualifies if it can cast at least one spell using its traits or features, not using a magic item or the like. The requirement to cast spells from scrolls as referenced by the Spell Scr...

dnd-5e spells magic-items monsters

Oh gosh darn it, is that not about monsters...

Ah it quotes "a monster qualifies [as a member of a class] if that monster has spell slots and uses that class's spell list."

> A monster with the Spellcasting class feature [...] has a list of spells known or prepared from a particular class. [...] The monster is considered a member of that class when attuning to or using a magic item that requires member-ship in the class or access to its spell list.

@Someone_Evil Yup, thanks for that; wouldn't have found that otherwise

KorvinStarmast

7:54 PM

@Medix2 huh, I thought it was just out of tune ...

Transcript for