Not a bar, but plays one on TV - 2020-09-18

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7:46 AM

@trogdor Sunset, yep. Her figure doesn't fit with the other mane sic, at least imho

I mean, I guess she's supposed to be different? but yeah

I can at least see why you would be a little annoyed by that

@trogdor Was the main antagonist in one movie, then become a main character in the other three. And basically every other short that featured her. And they had to go for the villain version (even the pony seem based on the scene where she escapes in the mirror).

But I could live with that.

The gesture, can't really manage to unsee it

8:16 AM

the gesture was definitely unneeded

they could have even gone for something else really

I think she would otherwise be fine honestly in fact

the gesture is just,... kinda weird

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

You're all pointing to the hand gesture, right?

yes

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

I'm currently looking at the feet positioning/angle, which is more prominent thanks to the camera angle in the last image (which AFAIK is also the very first preview image), and that looks very off to me (and is in fact similar to my objections to some of the City of Heroes postures).

That's what, 30° inward? Why? Or is that just an optical illusion due to an unfortunately chosen camera angle? I think it's the former.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica the figurine as a whole is a little weird, from the positioning, to the half down jacket, to the pony positioning (that kinda makes sense but only if you realize that it probably based on the escape scene in the first movie). But I could live with those.

Yeah I'm not nuts about her,.. trying to position her spine that way?

I can live with that though

The hand gesture just seems out of place for the overall aesthetic of the franchise

IMO at least

8:32 AM

The hand.... I don't know how that gesture "weight" differ between different cultures, but here I would associate that to Black Metal, which you know often falls into some serious issues with the content of some songs.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Specifically black metal, not rock-and-metal in general?

There's a lot of different kinds of metal

To be fair people into a few different types of music might use the gesture, but it's not without negative conotations in the USA either

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Kinda depends. You will see people making that hand gesture even at some Medieval music festivals.... during a Scottish bagpipe concert. I know that would be more of a generic Rock thing, but for some reason often people here think of the more "extreme" genres if you get what I mean.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy I'm not getting immediate search hits to provide an image proof, but I thought of it associated with a very wide spectrum of music, ranging from the classics like Ozzy, and all the way to such soft examples as Lacuna Coil, Evanescence, and maybe occasionally even Stirling. So I'm very puzzled about how it overshadows the very eyebrow-raising posture/balance choice.

Ugh, balance may be the wrong word, but I don't have an English word for the concept I'm trying to convey.

Locomotor stability configuration?

To be fair, since you mentioned Ozzy.... Isn't the first "official" usage of the horn gesture to rock culture usually considered the album "Witchcraft Destroys Minds & Reaps Souls"?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

8:46 AM

Thus the range from such classics to much softer bands.

Though then again, Ozzy is, apparently, a Christian performer despite outward edginess.

I mean it is widely used, it's mostly just strange to see it on a collectable product

Based off of a kids show

Otherwise I wouldn't bat an eye at it

I also think the posture is weird

well, if I search wikipedia for the origin of the horn gesture, I get redirected to this.

Coven is an American rock band with occult lyrics formed in the late 1960s. They had a top 40 hit in 1971 with the song "One Tin Soldier", the theme song of the movie Billy Jack. Coven was composed of vocalist Esther "Jinx" Dawson, bassist Greg "Oz" Osborne, guitarist Chris Neilsen, keyboardist Rick Durrett (later replaced by John Hobbs), and drummer Steve Ross. They are recognized by metal fans and metal historians as being the band that introduced the "Sign of the horns" to rock, metal and pop culture (as seen on their 1969 debut album release Witchcraft Destroys Minds & Reaps Souls, which has...

Read the description of that album. Witchcraft Destroys Minds & Reaps Souls.

Leaning back is one thing but it looks like she's ruining her back a bit

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@trogdor Kids don't rock in your culture?

At least to me

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica they definitely do but that wasn't my point

8:50 AM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica As for the pose, the leaning back.... read the messages I exchanged with doppel. I joked saying that she is trying to pose like Boa for a reason.

Yes, her posture is quite unnatural.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

I think I just have trouble focusing on any flaws when comparing to the supports angle.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica if you want to see the figure from other angles, have a look here

in Sugarcube Corner, 14 hours ago, by Derpy

KOTOBUKIYA SUMMER EXPO Live #1【BISHOUJO, DC Comics, Japan-Related Titles, and Horror】

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Maybe ponies just don't have a good idea about how bipeds walk/stand so they can't sculpt a good humanoid . . .

I'm not even really trying to say I think it's a major fault to include the hand gesture, just that I personally find it a bit off really

pretty much the same way I see her leaning back so far

and other than those two things I really don't have any issues with it

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica look, MLP is already full of parodies. Some are average, some are great and some I would like to wipe from existence (Cupcakes, Smile HD....)

It is just that I don't feel the urge to give more "bullets" to some weird sides of the fandom.

Since Sunset is also the one character that briefly turned into a demon....

3 hours later…

12:28 PM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica This too?

user image

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy This is why I complained about not using scientific notation.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Yep, buy I didn't realize that the button too had that problem.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Well, looking from behind didn't help any as far as my concerns were . . . concerned.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Talking about the figure, right?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Yes.

@doppelgreener You're mostly playing genre games, right?

12:36 PM

Neither is GURPS actually very universal or generic, except that it's simulated everything it can, but it's simulated within its lens of what matters and what doesn't matter. It's still very pointedly designed for certain kinds of gameplay—such as, gameplay that values specific kinda of violence as an option.

(Compared with, say, Bubblegumshoe and Cthulhu Dark which both have strong opinions on the place of violence not being a good solution, or D&D 4e which values different kinds of violence.)

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica You're going to have to define for me what that is.

@doppelgreener Speaking of which, I'm really curious to see what BOLT has to say about violence.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@doppelgreener Games (campaigns &c.) meant and made to fit within a specific genre, and appeal to fans of a specific genre. With rules adjusted in order to artificially nudge (with varying degrees of strength) outcomes, possibilities, and the like towards those that are more in line with a specific genre (or a specific selection of genres) and its conventions. By analogy with genre literature and other media.

E.g. the Ewok victory in Star Wars 6 was largely a result of genre conventions.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica My assertion to you would be that this describes every TRPG, where GURPS and EABA are also within a specific genre that's not too far from the D&D genre.

It also describes the RPGs which weren't consciously trying to do this, or were consciously trying to not: they are still in a genre and have rules which by their design nudge toward certain specific ranges of outcomes or possibilities that may not surface the same way in other games belonging to other genres.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

12:51 PM

@doppelgreener 'Not consciously trying to do this' and 'consciously trying not to' seem to be the opposite of 'artificially trying to' (though perhaps I should've used 'artificially/deliberately' for increased clarity).

So it's rather surprising that you find the two equivalent.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I am saying that every game winds up pursuing a genre, regardless of whether the designer was consciously pursuing a specific genre goal, not consciously pursuing one, or consciously trying not to pursue one. Their intent and conscious aim or lack thereof is neither here nor there: the result they produce in the end will belong to a genre and do what you laid out.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@doppelgreener That seems like pretty close to a stance that real life follows various genres in various times and places (or, a bit of an analogy: that nature sculpted a human portrait on Cydonia).

Something can be classified by onlookers as coincidentally fitting a trope. That doesn't mean it's actively emulating that trope.

That's not related to what I'm saying.

^^

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Any game system produces some sort of outcomes, possibilities and the like. Sometimes this is done in pursuit of a genre, and at others not.

1:01 PM

You're placing a lot of value on the authors' conscious pursuit when I am not.

Yeah, I'm kinda confused about why we're suddenly talking about [gestures above]. I thought we were talking about the illusion of narrative neutrality in game design.

I'm interested, as both a player and a designer, in avoiding that trap.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@doppelgreener Author's conscious actions on one hand, and the degree to which the outcomes diverge from the natural emulation of simplified life-like outcomes (i.e. imperfectly accurate, but genreless, since life is genreless) towards emulating a genre or genres (since genre conventions diverge from the natural outcomes).

Now, of course authors are imperfect and there are always some imperfections in an attempt to produce/convey/&c. a given type of experience.

But just because the message received is garbled doesn't mean the noise is part of the message.

So, the thing I am saying is that the options a game presents, how it presents them, and the possibilities and outcomes you're likely to see (or less likely to see), fundamentally define that game as separate from other games which present different options different ways and provide different ranges of possibilities or outcomes.

This describes every tabletop RPG without exception.

Games are genre games by dint of what they're doing. GURPS is a game that, for example, highly values violence as an available solution to problems, compared to other games which do not value it or do not even present it as an option.

GURPS covering all the options it can does not make it belong less to any genre; it makes it belong more to genres because of the options it's choosing to present vs not present.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica what can I say, at least AJ looks more natural.

user image

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy At least from this angle she does, yeah.

I feel like addressing replies touching on at least one part of the above can lead to huge rabbit holes, but . . .

1:14 PM

basically, GURPS is not a neutral experience that is independent of genres.

it is a very specific genre-ified game identified very strongly by multiple traits it possesses

the same goes for EABA, which makes its name kind of ironic

EABA's author might have thought they were making a super universal game, but they were really just making a new entry into a very specific genre of game

@doppelgreener I don't think we even need to get into genres to talk about this really, it's the nature of human experience that even the most earnest attempts to accurately represent our understanding of the world, are filtered through our personal sense of how the world works (CW sexism in science).

@BESW for sure

i don't even need to identify genres to be able to say "this is a certain kind of game that allows or encourages these things while disallowing or discouraging these other things" about any given game. Just, the genres are approximately where the Things in each case tend to overlap a lot.

Someone trying to emulate some section of life (including all of it) comes from a subjective view of it as being about these things being important, forcing choices between these factors, with these ranges of possibilities as a result of these specific actions, etc.

If a game is trying to represent "reality," it's still gotta filter through the creator's understanding of reality--and then through their sense of what is important to represent, and how. Not even physics is an accurate representation of reality, how much less a game.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

'Defines' is a strong word that I would dispute. But 'influences' I will grant. That, however, is not where our approaches to the topic seems to differ most, since influence does not automatically a genre game make.

I'm not sure we have the same understanding of what is meant by 'values' violence. GURPS certainly does not magically make your application of violence result in *solving* a problem, it merely has a subsystem modelling violent engagements. Once the dust settles, a problem may be solved or made worse, or both, depending on other factors. Which seems to be at least vaguely simila…

Successful trompe l'oeil is not an accurate depiction of reality; it is an accurate prediction of the target audience's expectations of reality from a certain standpoint.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

1:22 PM

@doppelgreener This (particularly the subjective view part) gets back into the 'message received contains noise, but that does not mean noise is part of the signal'.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Are you aware that what you're describing is an approach to violence provided by GURPS that other games do not provide in the same fashion, where GURPS's rules lead to certain ranges of outcomes and possibilities that would not exist the same way or may not exist at all in other games (which might in turn have things that do not exist in GURPS), because it has conventions that are separate to their conventions?

"Violence is just an option that neither necessarily creates nor solves problems" is a very specific opinionated stance on the value of violence that other games do not share, and making it available as a means to resolve or create problems, even in this way, is placing value on violence

It is neither a neutral stance, nor a genreless stance, nor a universal stance

@doppelgreener It's a stance that many people don't share, too. Peine forte et dure!

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@doppelgreener I am aware that outcomes produced differ between games. Some of those outcomes may be produced as an attempt (successful or not) to emulate a genre. Some may be not trying to emulate a genre but produce results that deviate from emulating a natural outcome towards a genre (or at least genre-like) outcome. Some may neither be in pursuit of emulating a genre, nor having a major deviation from the natural towards the genre.

This is starting to get into Gary Saul Morson Narrative and Freedom territory.

(I marvel at Morson's talent in making such an interesting topic so unbelievably boring.)

You seem to be assuming that GURPS does not, itself, belong to a very specifically identifiable genre

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

1:28 PM

I'm not sure we put the same concept into the idea of belonging to a genre.

...Okay. This wasn't a conversation about genre when I joined it and I don't want to have a conversation about genre. Ping me if we ever get back to the interesting stuff.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

First, goals-wise, as far as I know, GURPS was written with an eye towards only having a mild bias towards protagonist importance/competence. Does that make it 'tainted' enough to be considered a 'very specifically identified genre'? Well, if that's where you put the calibration point.

What about this implies anything about this stuff being "tainted"?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

But that seems to be putting the calibration point in such a place that you will undermine the distinction between genre and non-genre series of events / descriptions / fiction / whatever.

Just to be clear, I'm using "this game belongs to a genre" in the sense that

49 mins ago, by vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@doppelgreener Games (campaigns &c.) meant and made to fit within a specific genre, and appeal to fans of a specific genre. With rules adjusted in order to artificially nudge (with varying degrees of strength) outcomes, possibilities, and the like towards those that are more in line with a specific genre (or a specific selection of genres) and its conventions. By analogy with genre literature and other media.

this describes every game at all ever

I don't need to use fictional genres like science fiction to make this assertion.

1:33 PM

...you know what? No. I never ask this just for myself but I'm going to do it now: Please move this conversation about vocabulary definitions to the Not A Bar.

I think I'll leave this be. I've got some other stuff to do, and I think I've said all I can say right now on this.

I am very very tired of having interesting conversations bog down into interminable arguments about the definitions of words that aren't even central to the original topic. And now I don't get to talk to Greener about their ideas about choosing systems for goals.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

I think we have so many differences in views on fundamental matters (on which we base the rest of the discourse) that it's reasonable to classify our discussion as producing very few steps towards mutual understanding, and the desire to move to something else is very reasonable.

Probably doesn't help that I have wound up using words that are wholly beside the point in order to try to communicate the point

← 62 messages moved from TRPG General Chat

1:41 PM

the little wizard from Eternia is trying to hide my ponies army, that shan't be allowed to happen. :P

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

:55588620 Thanks for the move. But you missed a few early messages.

My plan to turn the room into "Not a bar, but plays MLP on TV" won't stop.

5

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Onward to others of the collection then?

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica if you wish, here you have a small sequence of pictures

in Sugarcube Corner, Nov 29 '19 at 11:43, by Derpy

Think I already posted this one

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy They're supposed to be painted manually like wargame minis?

1:44 PM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Nope, the top two are old pictures.

the company that makes those figures... they usually

a) announce a new figure and show some concept artwork.
b) show an unpainted figure
c) show the painted version.

this usually takes... several months.

Given that the figures are also quite pricey it probably helps them to distribute the releases on a larger time window.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Well AJ and Rainbow look good. Rarity has cool hair but I'm ambivalent about the outfit. The lighting makes everyone's already-de-emphasised noses almost disappear though, meh.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica You have to consider that the figures are made by a Japanese company.

To be more specific, for odd reasons they have been put in the Bishoujo line

> The Bishoujo Statue is a series of statues based off of Shunya Yamashita's illustrations of various movie, game, and comic characters in the Japanese bishoujo (young beautiful girls) style.

^ taken from the site.

So, it could be worse. It is clear that being Hasbro they just went for an anime style version of the Equestria Girl line.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

What are the original EG figurines like?

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Hasbro ones?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Probably. My knowledge of FiM is minimal.

1:54 PM

Quality varies. Hasbro is a toy factory and as expected the products they make are basically toys for little kids, mostly aimed at girls.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Aside from one of my players/ex-GMs being a fan and often throwing select bits at me regularly, and discussions in this chat, I don't know what's out there.

So, the toys are often made to be brushable

user image

user image

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy . . . okay, I liked the Japanese ones better. Even the noses.

"recently" Hasbro probably noticed that MLP gathered other fans, and so you find LICENSED product that are actually "show accurate" in a way.

Speaking of Equestria Girl, the only "well made" official toys I can think of are the Equestria Girl Mini set.

user image

The Kotobukiya figures are probably aimed at collectors/older fans instead... so they went for a far more complex art style.

It is also clear if you look at the other figures from the Bishoujo line that MLP is an exception in the set.

The other figures are far more "fanservice oriented" in a way.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Also... trust me, it get worse with some official toys.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

2:11 PM

@Derpy I think I have trouble parsing this sentence and/or its subtexts.

@BESW Many days students feel that way about me and mathematics =)

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Sigh, now Shy has those posture angles.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica ?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Look at the boots.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica those are posable mini figures.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

2:22 PM

Oh.

so blame whoever posed her that way

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

So at least that's not a permanent posture.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica look at the arms, they have joint. You can also notice the leg joints on some of them, mostly Dash.

Far more visible for obvious reason on the Summer line versions since those are based on an odd series of beach shorts and the characters wear various swimsuits (if you think that is odd.... Fluttershy actually wears a diving suit instead)

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy I may be confusing her with someone else, but Shy has a selection of unexpected skills like stealth and SCUBA in the main series, right?

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica you mean the Pony version?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

2:33 PM

Yes.

Don't think that she is ever seen doing anything related to scuba-diving in the original.

As for odd unexpected skills, yep, sometimes she manages so.

When she don't ruin everything with her usual shy feat.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica That said, don't expect much internal consistence in the media.

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Comic Fluttershy on top, Cartoon Fluttershy on bottom.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Is that . . . a teapot?

Comic version has a bat-cave worth of knitting implements in a secret room under her house and manages to knit gas-filled balons.

Carton version... that would be an attempt at knitting a cover for a teapot, yes.

2:55 PM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Also, was meant to be an "Elephant Tea Cozy"

> Fluttershy: Do you need help knitting? I've started making tea cozies. It's an elephant.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Oww.

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Notice that in another episode she is the one that actually helps Rarity finish some clothes.. and in THIS episode Rarity is scared by the idea.

Minor inconsistencies.

3:56 PM

BWAHAHAHA.... No Man Sky site was just basically DDos by the fans... afte Sean posted a single tweet with an emoji of an orange.

twitter.com/NoMansSky/status/1306979216030871552

> IF YOU STOP CHECKING THE SITE, THEN THE SITE WILL WORK

4:07 PM

and what's even funnier is that the site doesn't even contain any info other than the update cover art and a "next week" release date

user image

But know what, I want to finally get a cloak like the one on the right.

Also, Atlas shape in the logo, maybe lore related.

8 hours later…

11:57 PM

ooh

I need to play NMS one of these days

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Sep '2018

Not a bar, but plays one on TV

I'm not a place to unwind after work, but I play one on TV.

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