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12:02 AM
@EddieKal I have posted my answer but don't let that stop you from posting your own. That would increase the question's chances of reaching HNQ, so we can impress the rest of the SE network with theory questions ;-) I'm off to bed now. It was supposed to be an early night ...
 
@Tsundoku That'd be nice. I am still racking my brain trying to find a continental source. UK sources seem very aloof compared to Franco-German/American scholarship on this. Sleep tight!
 
12:19 AM
@EddieKal I'm not sure I whole-hearted agree with your analysis
This musical is full of motifs, symbolism, and quite complex/dark themes
@EddieKal Interesting. There's a discarded song from the soundtrack called "As Long as There's a Moon"
 
@NorthLæraðr About the age thing, I understand your objection. My comment comes from a general marketing kind of angle. I fully believe young audiences can be furnished with songs fraught with symbolism and dark themes, I just don't feel like Disney was too keen on doing that purposely
Disney intentionally shelved Esmeralda and discounted her as a "princess"
Because she doesn't make a lot of money for them
 
@EddieKal True. I think you are probably right on that it's not that deep (as is I think, with a lot songs), but it just seemed like such a random reference
 
I considered that very unfair
 
@EddieKal Bruh Esmerelda is amazing
 
Can you give me some hints?
Like some of the themes you have picked up on from the song
 
12:29 AM
Have you watched the movie?
 
It's just Esmeralda has most of my attention to and interest in this movie, so I may be overlooking a lot in the song
Yes I have
 
Oh lmao
 
And I am familiar with the original Hugo work too
 
Well, Someday is supposed to be sung by Esmerelda and that Captain before Esmerelda is supposed to be burnt at the stake, at least in the live musical
 
@NorthLæraðr So you want an answer that discusses what the wishes are in "wish upon the moon"?
 
12:33 AM
@EddieKal No no
It's like
I think the moon means something more
Stephen Schwartz is not one to be random with his lyrical choices
 
Hmm so this could go two ways. If we trust authorial intent, we'd have to look at possible intertextual references
Most likely other songs that invoke the same kind of imagery
I did give that some thought when writing that answer, but I exhausted my knowledge of moon references and couldn't find one that's suitable
The other way is to ignore the songwriter and analyze the lyrics as they stand on their own. Psychoanalysis would be handy tool in doing this. I haven't thought of a good way to do it though, but totally doable.
But that way, a lot of new meanings would be bestowed upon the words
And we'd be reading a lot more things into the lyrics, like gender and race, two main themes in Esmeralda's story
 
That might be too deep
Perhaps try to find other references to moon throughout the soundtrack?
It might be a fruitless endeavour, partly because "someday" was cut from the original soundtrack
 
Hmm.. let me think about it. If I can't find anything I will remove my answer shortly
Btw, Hellfire is really interesting to analyze because it has a lot of religious references.
 
@EddieKal Hellfire is my favorite Disney villain song
It's so good
 
I am not sure the moon reference has anything to do with Romani culture to be honest
 
12:48 AM
@EddieKal Interesting coincidence, you should look into that actually
@EddieKal I'm not sure if all gypsies are Romani, but Clopin, the leaders of the gypsies, certainly is
And that other song about the moon and marriage had some stuff about moons
Jackpot! Gypsies are Romani people
The Romani (also spelled Romany , ), colloquially known as Roma, are an Indo-Aryan ethnic group, traditionally nomadic itinerants living mostly in Europe, and diaspora populations in the Americas. The Romani as a people originate from the northern Indian subcontinent, from the Rajasthan, Haryana, and Punjab regions of modern-day India.Genetic findings appear to confirm that the Romani "came from a single group that left northwestern India" in about 512 CE. Genetic research published in the European Journal of Human Genetics "revealed that over 70% of males belong to a single lineage that appears...
 
Gypsies is just a colloquall term for Romani people
yup
Was just typing it
I tend to avoid the term "gypsy" unless as a modifier before certain nouns
Sometimes it is considered offensive
 
Ah
they better not listen to the "hunchback of note dame" then
 
Okay I give up. I don't see a way I could connect the song with authentic Romani poetry despite the fact that they invoke similar things, like the sun, moon
 
maybe it's more so related to medieval French culture?
 
Hmmm, quite possibly
 
 
3 hours later…
3:57 AM
I just hopped on to check out the twitter feed room, and like
Idk how to describe my reaction to it
 
 
2 hours later…
6:16 AM
@EddieKal Most of the time.
 
6:29 AM
@Mithical Agreed
 
0
Q: How are colors being used in Maya Angelou's "The Mothering Blackness"?

MithicalIn Maya Angelou's poem "The Mothering Blackness", there are a bunch of different colors mentioned. For instance, the first verse goes like this: She came home running    back to the mothering blackness    deep in the smothering blackness white tears icicle gold plains of her face There are ment...

 
7:25 AM
0
Q: Has there ever been an African-American Vernacular English dictionary?

Eddie KalI am trying to look for a dictionary for African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) but I haven't found one, not even one. Google Books shows some introductory and general reference materials. I see one book titled A Dictionary of Varieties of English, and another one Dictionary of American Regio...

 
 
4 hours later…
11:08 AM
Came across this curious article about literary critic and thinker Julia Kristeva: Bulgaria Says French Thinker Was a Secret Agent. She Calls It a ‘Barefaced Lie.’, New York Times, 2018.
^ Watch the date.
 
11:24 AM
That's apparently an entire book: Lacan the Charlatan by Peter D. Mathews (Palgrave, 2020). It examines the arguments of anti-Lacanian critics.
@NorthLæraðr What did you expect to see? It is not a chatroom, it merely uses the chatroom infrastructure and a script that runs on another server to push out tweets.
 
 
1 hour later…
12:57 PM
Do we want this question migrated here? Content warning: extremely offensive and racist poem (I didn't even onebox the post here for this reason). The question itself seems valid and within our ballpark though.
 
I'm perfectly fine doing without it.
We don't need to make an effort to purposely bring it here.
 
The internet won't lose anything of value by letting that question get deleted.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:45 PM
@Tsundoku Do we need a ?
2
This is a rather odd tag
A rather odd question tbh
 
3:11 PM
0
Q: What is the name of this book?

Popplio LoverI remember three things about a book I read as a young child. The cover was blue-green, and had either stars, fireflies, or some other kind of orbs of light on it. I don't remember the title, and all of these memories are fuzzy. There was a small character, maybe the main character's best frien...

 
Yes, I can... approve tag synonyms (shaky thumbs up)
oh sorry, create tag synonyms
 
3:27 PM
You know it's a weird feeling to be able to like answer stuff on Stack Exchange
My first site ever was Physics SE and there's no way I can even understand what's going on
And Puzzling Stack Exchange is a mixed bag. Sometimes I get sniped, but most of the time, I just don't know what's going on
Oh btw @Randal'Thor I took a Wheel of Time test without having read wheel of time
@EddieKal How do you even start to tag your question?
 
@NorthLæraðr Idk didn't find any tag I could use
 
I'm not sure is the right tag....
But I'm not sure how else one would tag this :/
 
I leave it to y'all's better judgment
 
@EddieKal Except I'm not sure there is a better judgement. In terms of answering your question, my gut instinct is "no". The first instance of the usage of this word was in 1991
According to Merriam-Webster
Ugh, someone's comment regarding AAVE:
> "Possibly the biggest waste of print and paper ever, certainly in the top ten.
What this author is doing, as many before have, is to lend legitimacy to an alternative form of English, instead of pointing out that those who use this are simply uneducated.
It’s amazing to me that we are passing high school students in English who can form or speak a simple sentence using the correct words.
And they wonder why they don’t do well on a job interview."
 
3:44 PM
@NorthLæraðr Where did you find it?
 
@EddieKal Amazon review on an "Ebonics Dictionary". Doesn't seem like much of a dictionary though
^That's the book. Doesn't strike me as a comprehensive dictionary you're looking for
@EddieKal My mom used to work in "the hood" of Los Angelos as a middle school teacher. She said that it's extremely ignorant to assume that the kids aren't educated because of the way they speak
 
@NorthLæraðr Mad props to your mom
 
@Mithical For your collection of multilingual puns: The French are so hard core they have pain for breakfast. The Italians aren't so tough; they are al dente.
2
 
@Tsundoku Lol I understand the french one
 
This is something I have to combat every now and then on ELL. Every time a question about "slang words" pops up, very likely someone will say "that's uneducated English. Don't bother. Learners don't need to know."
 
3:49 PM
@EddieKal You might want to check out works by William Labov. He seems to be a hallmark sociologist/linguist who studied AAVE
@EddieKal Ugh
 
@NorthLæraðr Seems an interesting scholar
 
@EddieKal This isn't a dictionary, but it's pretty comprehensive analysis of AAVE
 
Nice find. A volume.
@Tsundoku It'd be interesting to know the etymology of the word
I am still not sure the word is as old as the text
 
@EddieKal Here's a phonetics guide by him that covers all the dialects of North America, though I'm not sure if AAVE is in this volume
@EddieKal I found some two outdated volumes
I'll try to answer your question if I can find a definite source
 
0
Q: What's meant here by "walk for a wager"?

Ahmed SamirIn "The Fisher of Men" in Dr. Thorndyke's Case-Book by R. Austin Freeman, Dr. Gervis was digging the earth with his friend, while they saw a stranger man coming along the path, then that man was for the moment hidden from them by a bend of the path and a near clump of bushes. At this moment the ...

 
3:59 PM
@NorthLæraðr I don't see how this fits into the scope of Literature SE.
 
@Tsundoku It's trying to find a book source, no?
I think it could fit, though tagging it is a bit odd
 
@NorthLæraðr That's my consideration and I wanted to see how people think
also passed my mind
 
Telephone directories are also books. Would you find a question about finding a telephone directory on topic?
2
 
@Tsundoku Fair point, but this is a rather specific question
Eddie is asking if such X specific volume exists
@EddieKal That's not what are for
 
@NorthLæraðr Close reason = recommendation request?
 
4:03 PM
@Tsundoku Is that considered a recommendation though?
I see this question more akin to asking for a translation of the Tales of Genji
 
@Tsundoku To be totally honest with you the question was inspired by this
This was migrated to Meta LL but would also work well on Language Learning Stack Exchange, where I am a moderator. — Tsundoku 2 days ago
 
@Tsundoku And recommendation request is closed because it's opinion-based
 
I did do my homework and read the meta post about recommendation questions being off topic
 
I think this question is perfectly on-topic IMHO
 
So I made sure to steer clear of asking for recommendations
 
4:04 PM
LL SE has other rules about recommendations than Literature SE.
 
"Specific questions about the publishing process, literary conventions, or tropes in literature."?
 
@Tsundoku But this argument would imply subject matter is the crux of the issue
 
We closed this and this because "questions asking for list of works or reading recommendations are off-topic". And those questions were at least about literature. Dictionaries aren't.
 
Then if the OED is on-topic, why wouldn't AAVE dictionaries?
 
The OED is not on topic either.
2
 
4:08 PM
@Tsundoku We allow non-fiction works, no?
 
Fair, let's discuss if dictionaries should be on-topic
 
This is not about AAVE versus OED. It is about dictionaries not being literature.
 
"My personal definition of literature is something that tells a story."
^Okay so that's a fair statement
19
Q: What types of non-fiction are on topic?

SkoobaHaving read the current tour the "ask / don't ask" is short an vague. Now I would expect that since we are currently in private beta. However, to me a big definition on scope would be a debate between fiction and non-fiction. Ask Specific issues with literature Real problems or questions that y...

 
@NorthLæraðr That's a really poor definition.
 
@Tsundoku Just took a line from the meta-post
@EddieKal "If a book doesn't have a narrative (e.g. a text book, technical book, encyclopedia), then it's not literature within our definition. Even going by your second definition, text books and encyclopedias would be out because they're not about one subject. Let's keep in mind the term "literary nonfiction"."
 
4:10 PM
@NorthLæraðr I was responding to the content. That definition is extremely poor.
 
This was also 3 years ago, mind you
Hm
@Tsundoku So going back to our question, what is literature?
 
Ask on the main site.
 
@Tsundoku Seriously?
Okay
 
@Tsundoku So scope questions are on topic, but not feelers?
Not edge cases?
 
@Tsundoku how do i tag it?
 
4:28 PM
@Tsundoku Done.
 
I hope this question will be accepted and well received
> Also, there are two parts in "Tao Te Ching", 《道经》 and 《德经》. So, it should be "Dao De Jing".

Why not "Daode Jing"?

In modern Chinese, "道德" is one word, means "人们共同生活及其行为的准则和规范(The rules and norms of people living together and their behavior)". It's different to "道德" in《道德经》.
Does this sound reasonable?
 
@EddieKal Ah, I completely forgot
We have a Linguistics SE that question might be better for.
You might want to migrate it there
 
@NorthLæraðr Mhm I didn't think of it either. Let's do this. If after the discussion invited by your question we consider dictionary questions off topic, I will request it be migrated there.
 
@EddieKal Well we could deduce what is considered literature and figure out if your two dictionary questions are considered literature
 
Oh I think I misspoke. Your question is about the definition of literature but not on-topic-ness
Pardon me
 
4:35 PM
@EddieKal Yeah. On-topicness would've been on meta
 
Then let's continue the on-topic-ness discussion here
 
Well I don't know what literature is, I realized
"Literature broadly refers to any collection of written or oral work, but it more commonly and narrowly refers to writings specifically considered to be an art form, especially prose fiction, drama, and poetry, in contrast to academic writing and newspapers.[1] In recent centuries, the definition has expanded to now include oral literature, much of which has been transcribed."
"Literature, as an art form, can also include works in various non-fiction genres, such as autobiography, diaries, memoir, letters, and the essay, as well as in the disciplines of history and philosophy."
Literature broadly refers to any collection of written or oral work, but it more commonly and narrowly refers to writings specifically considered to be an art form, especially prose fiction, drama, and poetry, in contrast to academic writing and newspapers. In recent centuries, the definition has expanded to now include oral literature, much of which has been transcribed.Literature, as an art form, can also include works in various non-fiction genres, such as autobiography, diaries, memoir, letters, and the essay, as well as in the disciplines of history and philosophy.Its Latin root litera...
Not that Wikipedia has the final word or anything but that's how they define it
 
Some idiom just sprang to mind
Till the cows come home
I concur with Tsundoku that "tell a story" is not a good definition. But I don't think he'd agree with my definition.
 
0
Q: What *is* Literature?

North LæraðrThere's been plenty of meta posts about what should be considered on-topic here, and some discussion on whether music should be literature or not. We also have a question on the ways academics has defined literature. I think rather than squabbling about why some medium or work is or isn't conside...

 
5:04 PM
2
Q: What are all fantastic creatures on The Nile mosaic of Palestrina?

b_jonasThe Nile mosaic of Palestrina is a mosaic originally constructed in the ancient Roman age, in Palestrina in Italia. It depicts an imaginary scene from Egypt, showing various fantastical animals, such as a snake with multiple heads, an animal with an ungulate's body but a crocodile's head, a hipp...

^ Well the question got closed on Sci Fi for some reason. If you want it, I can bring it here, but I should probably still try something closer to on topic first, as in question about book illustration, if I find a good one.
 
5:28 PM
@NorthLæraðr Thanks a bunch for the bounty!
 
@EddieKal No problem! looks at free bronze badge
 
Haha you just handed me a badge too
 
Which badge?
See everyone benefits!
 
5:31 PM
You are awesome
 
You seem close to the Notable Question Badge as well
@EddieKal Don't think so highly of me, there were some clear ulterior motives :P
But it is a good question that I think people should pay more attention to
I also really like Tsundoku's answer so
 
@NorthLæraðr Yeah that is a great answer. Oh man, the speed with which Tsundoku answers research-intensive questions is really something
3
 
6:28 PM
@EddieKal I was thinking the same thing, after seeing your two recent questions. My initial reaction was "borderline but on-topic", but after thinking about it a bit more I'm now thinking dictionaries would be more relevant for language sites than Literature. Out of interest, are questions about dictionary editions or specific types of dictionary on-topic for either ELU or ELL?
@NorthLæraðr Agreed with Tsundoku that that's a poor definition. Hamlet, who probably put a lot more thought into how to define literature, once proposed that our scope could be anything that's either (a) about books or (b) about literary theory and criticism. That definition would allow both / type questions and questions about things that most people might not call "literature" but to which literary techniques could be applied (e.g. music).
 
@Randal'Thor Literary critique?
 
@b_jonas A commenter suggested Mythology. Would you prefer there or here? I'm happy to migrate it here for you, although it may be slightly scope-stretching (inviting "are mosaics literature" type concerns). But then your comments in here suggest you're aware of its scope-stretchiness and have no problem with that.
 
@Randal'Thor What do you mean?
 
@Randal'Thor On-topic on meta not on the main sites
 
@NorthLæraðr ?
 
6:43 PM
@Randal'Thor Can you explain more about like literary theory how that applies to music?
 
@NorthLæraðr I'm not sure really - it was Hamlet's idea.
-2
A: Are questions about music on-topic (part 2)?

user111The Literature Stack Exchange is actually two different sites rolled into one. We are a: Site about books (e.g. the questions about book-care, basic plot points, and story-identification). Site about literary theory and criticism (e.g. our close reading questions, our questions about literary t...

 
@Randal'Thor oh lol
 
He might have expanded on this point in chat, I don't remember.
 
2 days ago, by Eddie Kal
user image
Just a taste of it
 
I just want a definition from the community :/
 
6:54 PM
Haven't had enough motivation to extract enough information to put in a post
 
@NorthLæraðr Definition of what, literature?
 
@Randal'Thor yeah
 
Don't hold your breath: it's a big question, one that presumably even the professional/academic community can't all agree on, and we can't really expect to do better than them. Science Fiction & Fantasy has long given up on the idea of even trying to define exact boundaries of "science fiction" or "fantasy", and their policy on scope includes the line "If you're not sure it's SF but you think a good case can be made for it, it's on-topic."
 
@Randal'Thor hm
 
 
1 hour later…
8:04 PM
-1
Q: Should dictionaries be on-topic?

Rand al'ThorRecently two questions about dictionaries have been posted here: Is the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) a descriptive dictionary? Has there ever been an African-American Vernacular English dictionary? As far as I can remember, this is the first time questions about dictionaries have been posted...

 
8:31 PM
What's with all these downvotes?
 
 
1 hour later…
9:48 PM
1
Q: Why the word "sootikin" in a children's poem "Choosing Their Names"?

user100323In a poem entitled Choosing Their Names by Thomas Hood a stanza is: One is black, with a frill of white, And her feet are all white fur, too; If you stroke her she carries her tail upright And quickly begins to purr, too! I think we shall call her this – I think we shall call her that – Now don’...

 
 
1 hour later…
10:48 PM
@GWarner Hi
Good to see you here. Bored in the ELL room?
 
11:04 PM
@EddieKal I don't know for certain. Distracted, mostly I think.
And I need to branch out. Perusing LSE because I am formulating a question. And I want it to be well received, and not vandalized by syntax police
 
@GWarner Syntax police?
 
@GWarner "Vandalized by syntax police" is unlikely to happen here, I think
 
Badly formatted question. Showing research etc etc.
Why I have never asked any questions on any SE site
 
@GWarner We're pretty lax here, all things considered
 
@NorthLæraðr Thank you. my introduction to SE did not go well 5 years ago.
Of course it was on SU. I have since learned how bad it can be over there
 
11:16 PM
I still don't know what a "power user" or "super user" even is, and there's no question relating to that on SU. I tried to check
 
@GWarner Ah, yes. I've heard the horror stories from SU
 
@ThePuzzlingPlatypus A Superuser is Linux version of Adminstrator on Windows
 
Ok so i can figure out what that means, thank you
 
It refers to someone that is well versed in programming and coding
 
Thank you
 
11:58 PM
Not necessarily. Those are quite orthogonal attributes.
 

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