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11:02 AM
@Muze Here the mods have hidden communication channel, we don't. So the optimal strategy is to say what you think. The truth. Simply. Openly. Except for what you would risk a suspension.
@RoryAlsop It is not true and I know it multiple times from my own experience. Often it is so as you say, but not always. Sometimes mods are carefully watching users for the first option to suspend him, and then interpret his "offense" so seriously as they only can. Sometimes mods of multiple sites are doing this with users.
 
11:38 AM
@peterh nope. That is so far from the truth is quite worrying. Mods typically try to help first. And you are completely misinterpreting the situation - if a repeat trouble maker moves to a new SE site and continues with the same behaviours, they are not a first offender, and to prevent others on that site suffering the same as previous sites, they will not be treated as if they are new
They will be treated as having already been told multiple times
Even if a single mod wanted to target someone specifically, that would be obvious to other mods on that site and to the CMs, so they'd get told
 
 
5 hours later…
4:52 PM
@peterh yes after being suspended from Physics for asking low quality questions it was much quicker for getting suspended from engineering and electrical engineering faster for the same thing. I got to ask much fewer questions.
@RoryAlsop 1 site do effect the other sites
 
5:23 PM
@Muze absolutely
@Muze of course
Because we expect people to learn from the warnings they get. Across the whole Stack Exchange network. Because the rules are broadly the same across all the sites. Admittedly, some are much stricter (skeptics, for example) but the baseline is the same
But that is why I (and others) keep trying to communicate - the best outcome is you learn how the sites work and ask and answer loads of questions that are on topic and well structured, and you follow the rules regarding voting, commenting, editing and generally behaving like everybody else.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:41 PM
@RoryAlsop after a year of suspension (or any once they started just handing them out to me for my own fault) I didn't have the freedom of movement"like everyone else" that 1 first did. Does that ever go away? Will I ever get a frsh start?
 
7:16 PM
@Muze The way to look at it is the things you did on the run up to that long suspension. All the messages you got, the comments and warnings - those tell you what led up to that suspension. If you do those things again, do you think a fresh start is appropriate?
In the mod messages we do have wording along the lines of "when you return, we hope you will have improved your behaviour"
So I would suggest not thinking of fresh start, but thinking about not trying to push boundaries all the time - just follow the guidance like millions of others do, and it is really straightforward to work within the framework SE sets for us
If I go back to your "I want to upvote everybody" comment - you have been told over and over why that is a bad thing for SE. The simple action you can take is to not do that, and remove the message saying you will.
Most of the things you got in trouble for are simple to fix - just don't do them any more :-)
 
7:35 PM
@Muze If you ask too few questions, you can't learn. Not the SE, you didn't learn Physics and Engineering.
@Muze The is about learning the SE. It is bad. The SE should be about learning the topic of the site. *.SE should be a good way to learn things. You have a question, you google for it, if you can't found anything, you ask it on the site. It doesn't work, you were imho simply hated out.
 
@peterh stop that nonsense. It is untrue. You can ask anything that is on topic on the site. But ask it following the very simple rules. Nothing to do with being "hated out"
SE is an excellent way to learn things - far easier than other sites that tried to do this.
Just read and follow the simple guidance
Hate literally never comes into it
@peterh I really don't know why you try to troll folks into behaving badly - because that is what you are doing with your incorrect and slightly paranoid bits of guidance to @Muze
 
7:55 PM
@RoryAlsop I know a user on the Unix SE. unix.stackexchange.com/users/674/tim He has 1400 questions and maybe 20 answers. I find his questions regularly in the VtC/VtR queues. But, he could learn unix/linux, using the SE system. Can you find a user with similar stats on the PSE or on the Engineering SE, or on the Electronics SE?
 
@peterh I honestly have no idea what you are trying to ask. Of course people can learn through SE - that is the point!
 
@RoryAlsop Or they were autobanned, or manually banned by the mods after $\approx$ 10 closed/downvoted questions?
@RoryAlsop I didn't run a Sede query to sum the view counts of his 1400 questions, but I think we can suppose, that it is quite big?
 
@peterh You know Unix.SE has twice as many users as Electronics, and has been going a lot longer, right? I wouldn't expect stats to match across sites
@peterh no idea - it's kind of irrelevant. You don't get banned for asking questions. You get rep for it if they are good.
 
@RoryAlsop I only miss the Tims from the PSE/Engineering/Electronics.
@RoryAlsop And I try to defend them.
 
@peterh I assume they were folks who were suspended? If they were suspended, why would you defend them? Better to assume they deserved their suspensions.
 
8:03 PM
@RoryAlsop No. I think, primary attitude of a good linuxer is that he tries to help the other beginner linuxers. The primary attitude of a physicist is that he tries to "preserve the quality of the site". This is why there are no Tims on the PSE/Electronics/Engineering. Btw, I know electronics much better than physics. Despite that, I have only 300 rep on the Electronics SE. Do you know why?
@RoryAlsop Because also I was hated out.
 
@peterh I know Electronic Engineering much better than I know Physics - in fact it is what I have my degree in. My rep 592 on Electrical Engineering vs nearly 4000 in Physics. Do you know why? Because I have answered more questions on Physics.
@peterh The primary attitude of a good SE member is they follow the rules of SE. These include being nice, along with using the site the way it is supposed to be. You spend far too much energy trying to change the way SE works by confrontation and argument, as well as spreading fear, propaganda and untruths. If it's deliberate, then that's really not pleasant. If you do it without knowing, then you really should listen to those of us who try to help you understand it.
@peterh It really doesn't look like that from all the things I have seen of you there over the years
Hate is so rarely a thing on SE sites that when it happens and gets flagged to mods, we take rather swift and definite action
I am sure you annoy people, yes, through your misguided notions in some cases. But mods can not act on that because of the oversight from peers and CMs. The transparency and oversight/governance is one of the key tools we can use to avoid things like that happening.
 
@RoryAlsop That is the open hate. Following someone and giving him negative votes is pretty okay below some limits. For example, I get regularly some downs after all my MSO/MSE posts.
@RoryAlsop These downs arrive always to my old main site questions. It is just an example. I am older and wiser than Muze, so I could handle them. Muze is young and he couldn't. This is why is he banned everywhere, and this is why I am not.
 
@peterh a) that really isn't hate, b) if it's significant the system clears those automagically, c) we all get things like that. I get some. It's not a big deal. The people on the other end cannot hate me - they don't know me. You can't read anything into a few downvotes. They are imaginary and with no real value, so ... meh
 
@RoryAlsop Yes, we could call it "calculated and organized antagonism", too, but I think calling it simply hate is a much better description.
 
@peterh well - it isn't, as it is completely wrong. It is actually neither of those, but it is especially not hate. The folks who downvote almost certainly couldn't care less who you are.
Like I said, I get them too - many people do. It's irrelevant to life. Those who do it cannot hate me, as they don't know me.
 
8:15 PM
@RoryAlsop Talking with some of them, I have often the feeling as if I had opened a can of surströmming
 
Do you honestly think the posts I write incite hatred?
 
@RoryAlsop No, I only think it is quite common that the "community" simply finds someone and votes all of his posts down, to close, to delete.
 
@peterh I admit, sometimes I am convinced you try to annoy people, but it's online annoyance. If it was too much I'll go somewhere else. It's irrelevant to life
@peterh yeah - no. The figures absolutely do not support that in any way
It's not actually doable on SE
 
@RoryAlsop It is pretty well doable, if many people are doing it and all of them remains below the limits.
 
@peterh that implies you believe in a conspiracy - why on Earth would anyone bother. Seriously, nobody cares that much
@peterh oh, and we are pretty good at spotting people who misuse voting (for whatever reason) so voting rings tend to be brief, and are reversed reasonably easily
 
8:18 PM
@RoryAlsop One of their goals is to annoy the targeted user, until he commits some offense. Just like we have everywhere since the first IRC channels.
 
@peterh nope - just doesn't happen like you think
Read the note just above yours
 
@RoryAlsop That I don't think. Of course I see only few from the internals of the SE, but I am nearly sure, that they don't use any real intelligence to detect uncommon voting patterns. They don't use any soft method for anything. All of their rules are the most primitive I can imagine.
 
@peterh randomly just spotted this in relation to that comment: facebook.com/TheDirtyTruthAboutOrganic/photos/a.553945818102143/…
@peterh well - you'll just have to console yourself with knowing you are very wrong there. It's not your fault you see it that way, it is just that you are not able to see that data
 
@RoryAlsop And I am 100% sure that the SE don't even try to detect organized hird downvoting. I am 100% sure because they don't want even admit it, that it would be a problem.
 
@peterh well - wrong again. Sorry, but you need to stop making decisions based on incomplete or inaccurate data
Because I 100% use the detection tools and data they give to help stop voting collusion
So there you go
 
8:33 PM
@RoryAlsop I don't have complete or accurate data. And also you don't have, even if you know much more than me.
@RoryAlsop I have secondary signatures. I have some life experience, how things are goingby IT companies, including companies like the SE. I have many experience, how the things are going in internet communities. And I am on the SE since many years. I think the assumptions I have, are enough accurate.
 
@peterh after looking at some of my past thing I have done I am greatful I am still here. Please know I apprieciate your concern in helping the minority, but don't piss of the moderators. Hate isn't the word so much as annoyed a liker version of the word disliked.
 
@Muze Rory is one of the friendliest mods. Btw, your main problem don't root in the mods. If the communities wouldn't dislike you, the mods wouldn't ban.
 
It is sometimes just easier to hit the suspend button to deal with some users I understand, but the suspension times are just to long and makes user to find a way around it.
@peterh BTW if I didn't give out so many bounties I to would have 4000 rep in physics.
 
@Muze This is a problem of your own making. The fact that the suspension has hit a year multiple times should tell you something. The severity of the offense is subjective, to you. For moderation, it's going to be much less so.
 
@Frank I am greatful
 
8:40 PM
If moderation intervention is required, it's going to be less about how bad it was, and more about your behaviour previously. If it's over the line, then it's over the line.
 
@Muze Frank represents the more antagonistic side of the SE.
 
:49283965 Deleting the post doesn't hide it from moderators. But thanks for comparing me to...food?
 
@peterh be nice at all cost
 
@Muze Right. Better if I now go. Good bye!
 
@peterh your ok
I find much of what you said enlightening
 
8:43 PM
@Muze I'd take the vast majority of what peterh says with a grain of salt.
They are convinced that there's a conspiracy of antagonism inherent in the curation of the sites, and that leads to an incredibly skewed perception of how to deal with them.
 
@Frank is anything being done to improve the tools for moderators for alternatives for suspensions in the coding to allow things like edit bans at their disposal?
 
@Muze I doubt it.
You're not going to get a lot of traction by trying to argue that your actions don't deserve a year long ban.
 
How to mush for this? If the system can trigger tools should moderator also have the same tools?
push
 
That depends on what the purpose of moderators is; are they here to teach and guide users how to properly guide users in the use of the site?
Or are they here to handle exceptions that the rest of the community cannot?
 
Again the badge for up voting should include quidelines on how to go about achieving that badge. At first I would just give up votes out as fast as I could. They got reversed and then the line finding for me started.
 
8:48 PM
Why? We're not here to hold everyone's hands.
We're not going to spell out the exact behaviour you have to follow to not be suspended.
 
Some badges will get users in trouble
 
We're going to treat you like an adult.
 
Edit badges
flag badges
 
That's a way to encourage good behaviour.
 
while trying to get them I have got in trouble
I am being nice and not trying to cheat the system just exploite it
im kidding
 
8:51 PM
You're looking for specific steps to follow, so that you have perfect guidance.
You're not going to get it.
Life doesn't work that way.
 
but for real I just want to help and Peter makes a good defense attorney....Yes criminal histories work like SE. They never go away.
Haunt you forever
 
If you want to help, stop making work for everybody.
 
I know but I want to just pump out the questions, but I will show restraint and respect.
@Frank thank you and everyone else here.
 
The most basic rule for contributing to SE is effort. Try to show as much effort as you can when asking questions. Put effort into editing questions so they're the best you can make it. Spend time learning the site before asking questions. Especially, don't try to ask several questions in a very short period of time; it looks like minimal research.
2
 
@Frank I am guilty for this. Yes
 
8:58 PM
As you spend time on a site, you get to know it better. The more work you create for others, like having to teach you, fix your questions, close your questions, etc., the less willing they will be to have you around.
 
My new question is going to be "what is the ideal model SE user?"
a little broad but a good question
for meta later
 
No, that's going to backfire pretty badly.
Like I said, you're looking for perfect guidance.
You're not going to get it.
We're not your parents. We're not going to give you little nudges on what you did wrong, and not to do it again.
We're going to treat you like an adult, and that expectation means you have an idea of how to follow the rules on your own, without needing someone to watch you to do so.
2
 
9:46 PM
Can the Electorate badge at least have a warning?
@Frank
 
9:57 PM
@Muze Again, why?
 
Because up voting has its rules.
@Frank
 
You're not expected to get gold badges instantly.
 
I learned the hard way
 
If you're exclusively badge hunting, you're going to run into issues.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:11 PM
Frank's comment is spot on - don't badge hunt. If you do good things, badges will come. If you aim for badges you are likely doing the wrong things
 

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