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12:00 AM
@dezso Whats going on in your world?
@JonH should drink the rest of this Rioja and go to bed
instead I am browsing the Postgres questions of late
@dezso lol Im debating on staying up to catch a flight to Chicago for a 4 hour training tomorrow or try to take a nap
@JonH how good are you at getting up at inopportune times?
@dezso Not so good when its way out of my normal routine. I am no longer the spring chicken I use to be
You would be happy to hear that I opted to use Postgres versus MsSQL for a hobby project of mine
@JonH then find a good Rioja and stay up :D
12:05 AM
@JonH yeah, catched that bit by chance
that's a good choice
I did it 11 years ago, never looked back
Normally I would use Microsoft SQL Management Studio but doing Postgres, what would you recommend as a replacement?
I was surprised how small the installer was compared to MsSQL
@JonH seriously? psql
but that's not a graphical client, I admit
Yeah lets not turn me away so quick now
12:08 AM
I basically don't use anything else, outside trainings. Then it is DBeaver, as a result of a semi-random choice.
CLI has its advantages but I would prefer a GUI to be able to visualize
it depends on, I guess, what exactly you want to visualize
I think there's a bit of a gap in the market for a good free modelling tool.
Just tables, relationships and if I had a query with some joins table data. Just to be able to confirm what I am writing is the result I should be getting back
Once the model is done, physical implementation doesn't really benefit much from a UI IMO.
12:09 AM
I have been enjoying sqldbm.com for diagrams btw
@PaulWhite my first serious DB design was a set of pieces of paper on a large enough table. I might still have it somewhere.
yes I've always been a fan of pencil and paper
dbdiagram.io isnt bad, I liked the text design but it was a little inefficient as your tables grew and had to scroll up and down
@JonH yeah, there are some online tools that I liked (but have forgotten in the meantime)
12:12 AM
I start with paper and pencil with everything but after a certain point I need to mock it up to verify what I have is sound
though really any design is unusual enough to be remarkable
my pain has ever been the reverse engineering of existing DBs
the ones I create I know well enough :D
Apparently, you guys are more of an expert then I sqldbm.com has some reverse engineering functionality
Its able to fill in gaps that are missing from what I have read
there was (has been?) a tool from sybase, for example, that produced all the tables correctly, and none of the relationships. At the same time it was the best tool I knew to design (Postgres) DBs, next to paper and pencil
hmm interesting
12:29 AM
There is a list here: haven't tried most of them: databaseanswers.org/modelling_tools.htm
and another list at the Postgres site: wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/…
in unrelated news, I am looking for that hilarious image from one of us about winter and Hibernate, with a hint to Aaron
@PaulWhite right! Well I can't weigh in there 🤪
Give me another couple weeks.
12:50 AM
@dezso @JonH I've just tried pgmodeler. It can import from a Postgres database and produce a graphical model.
@ypercubeᵀᴹIm going to check that out for sure
Looks solid!
Yeah, I'll try it out, too.
For documentation, I've used another tool in the past. I can't remember the name now, I'll find it and let you know.
(documentation meaning := produce nice graphic models, with tables, columns, foreign keys, etc)
but without option to edit them (and apply the changes to the db
2 hours later…
2:24 AM
@PaulWhite I love deleting questions. Just not ones where I've answered ;-)
@MaxVernon I don't know. It seems like if there's a good answer, the question ought to be capable of being edited into shape where it could be reopened. Else, what's the point?
Leaving aside the question of a few rep points here and there.
@PaulWhite I agree - I was really just joking wth the comment above. I really do try to edit every lousy question that I can answer into a reasonably good question that has future utility.
I saw the humour but wanted to raise the serious point as well.
I find there are many questions that either get closed or receive quite a few close votes where I can figure out what the OP is actually asking just by reading between the lines a little bit.
I remember having a conversation with you, possibly several years ago, about deleting questions. I cannot, unfortunately, remember exactly why, but I seem to remember you not wanting to delete questions. I think it might have been right around when you first became a mod. At the time, I think we were talking about deleting dupes or something so perhaps that's why you didn't want to delete. Anyway, I'm into getting rid of low-view, crap quality questions that can't be rectified.
I guess my point is that closed-and-answered is a weird state for a Q & A to end up in, for the long term. That just means no one can add a new answer - maybe a better one, or a more up-to-date one etc.
2:32 AM
If the question has an answer with at least 2 or three upvotes, it gets into grey area though.
@PaulWhite maybe a good equilibrium for that would be vote-to-reopen if the question can be turned into something usable.
@MaxVernon How so?
@MaxVernon Well, yes. I would think in most cases a Q & A should end up open-and-answered, or closed-then-deleted.
I guess I'm saying if a question is not that great, and got a couple of downvotes, and doesn't have a lot of view, but it has an answer with 3 upvotes, perhaps the question is just a "bad idea"
@PaulWhite I think that's a good point to make.
@MaxVernon The question might be a "bad idea" but if the answer is good surely other good answers are also possible?
OTOH if the question is "off-topic" then what's it doing on the site?
I don't have a fully-formed view on all this, but this is my thinking so far.
@PaulWhite agreed. If I see closed questions that can be reopened with some deft editing, then perhaps I'll do a few of them and post them here to see where we go with it.
@PaulWhite yes, Off Topic clearly needs to go.
Like MS Access form-programming questions.
Web searches too often lead to a closed-but-not-deleted poor question. What's the point of that? Seems like it would be better if searches always lead to something useful.
2:37 AM
that's a great point, too. Maybe add that into your meta q on deleting?
(or is it already in there :-)
I feel like it's already too long. Perhaps I will try to refine it. Perhaps I will just try again.
@PaulWhite vote-to-delete as too broad :-)
Of course the SE system could do more to promote the curation of high-quality long term content as well.
There's precious little incentive to do this work today, and not great UI support either.
@PaulWhite I agree with that 100% - it's so hard to find the really great content
Searching for duplicates you know exist is way too hard.
2:43 AM
that's why I've been updating the meta canonical question
but that by itself won't work for everything since it'll end up way way too big.
of course it would be easier to find the good stuff if there weren't so much poor content
@PaulWhite 100% - delete votes will be incoming.
The frustration I found with delete votes was the lack of a way to coordinate a deletion effort. I would cast a delete vote, and then ... nothing happens, because no one else ever saw my vote.
3:16 AM
@MaxVernon ROFLMAO I hear that way too many times at work
Or the server guys swear a server is up and health checks are green... find out later that they were connected to the wrong server
@JonH ouch
Today I taught a T2 Linux Admin that linux was case sensitive... 2 hour bridge
good god. Really? Tier 2??? crazy.
Who doesn't know that every Posix derivative is case-sensitive.
The first time I used Linux I knew it was case sensitive
it's hard to not know
3:24 AM
Yeah I called him out on it in front of everyone. Day one stuff man, production was down for 2 hours and you costed us millions of dollars
That contract is about to expire very soon
I love the company I work for, we are working on getting rid of the 3rd party contractors for IT and moving all in house
There isnt any skin in their game, they dont care if something is down for x amount of hours. I do, thats my 401k
I'm an arms-length contractor where I work. We use IBM to manage all of our machines, and man do they suck. They sure know how to charge though ;-)
lol yeah we use them for exadata, luckily its mostly hardware support
They don't even use templated VMs for deploying new servers. it's a damn dog's breakfast.
3:27 AM
They are quick for us on that
Yeah same here, I face palmed on that one when I heard about it.
I had a session with an IBM Sybase ASE tech on Sunday not know that she needed to delete a "suspect" database before doing a restore.
"You mean to tell me, we hand make each VM for new deployments..."
it means they get to bill for about 40 hours of work for each VM that is deployed. Can you say gravy train?
Doesnt it amaze you sometimes? its like how did you get this far for so long...
and every machine has a different version of .Net Framework
3:29 AM
lol yeap
@JonH I was making VM templates when I first started using VMware in freaking 2004.
@MaxVernon I make VM templates for my home lab... There is really no reason not to
It's like the first thing you think of doing after you make 3 or 4 servers. "Let's not do this manually!"
Yeah if your doing the same thing over and over again its time to stop and think about what it would take to automate.
and sysprep makes it so easy
3:31 AM
Oh look at this, my automation script kind of documented everything I did and need to do.... Hmm
We just pushed our monitoring team to start monitoring disk space thresholds
@JonH clearly that's way too efficient
Its like amateur hour sometimes
@JonH threshold monitoring is hard :-)
Finding someone who has logged into a server in the past that has a cached profile so you can actually remove stuff is harder lol
tales of it, they never get old
@JonH that requires real skill - actual Windows experience.
@PaulWhite - what would you do with this - thousands of views, no answer. To me, the question is fairly good but it's not likely to help anyone as is. It's almost better to delete the question which would allow Google to suggest a different question to searchers. The title of the question is probably misleading Googlers.
There's probably a suitable dupe target somewhere
3:38 AM
I was looking at that question last night
I just VtC'd it as "too localized"
@MaxVernon Seems like a good question that is just lacking a good answer. As for helping anyone else - well surely other people experience differences when loading/updating partitioned tables, so it doesn't seem at all 'too localized' to me.
There's a strange balance here. Ask a question too generally, and people see it as unclear or too broad. Ask a detailed question, and people see it as too localized!
Reading the comments (ugh) it seems the issue boils down to alignment/non-alignment of an index. Certainly a common enough consideration.
@PaulWhite good point. The comments seem to point to the question being abandoned in this case.
@PaulWhite yes, that in fact might make a good "simple" answer.
I think it probably deserves a good answer. I might add one at some stage. Or someone else might.
A lack of recent activity is not the same as abandonment - the question may simply have reached its final form. It's not the fault of the question necessarily that it is still waiting for a decent answer.
It feels like there must be a good dupe already on the site. I'll look for one tomorrow.
non-partition-aligned indexes must be pretty commonly asked and answered
3:54 AM
I don't recall seeing one that talked about the impact on logical reads etc.
@MaxVernon Meanwhile, we could talk about the lasting value of:

E.Rawrdríguez.OphanimHi I'm trying to insert some data in my table but I got this error ...

...which just got bumped due to an approved trivial edit
4 hours later…
8:00 AM
@MaxVernon Prices in Switzerland
@PaulWhite: Difficult to post a different answer if it could be the same thing. So why not post the same description/solution?
@PaulWhite Just re-wording an answer to possibly solve the issue is a bit weird. The answer could be deleted after being accepted and then the question closed as duplicate.
8:30 AM
How did this one get up voted
A: pgAdmin 4: How to establish a connection through an SSH tunnel/interface in Windows

j3palaciosAnother option, use OmniDB... very powerfull platform and handle stable connections via ssh tunnel.

@PaulWhite Re-worded answer.
@TomV self-answer?
not really database related. Could be a question for superuser.
8:47 AM
@hot2use Not the self answer, the omniDB one
Ah. Already booted that one.
9:23 AM
For now I changed this answer to contain a link to archive.org instead of the original link that has rotted away, but I suppose it's best to add the relevant parts in the answer.
Unfortunately the linked article is almost an entire book and I don't have oracle experience so I wouldn't know what to add and what to leave out.
1 hour later…
10:35 AM
@PaulWhite To be honest, I never look at the delete views in /tools, I should do that more often
It's a bit hidden but everyone with 10K+ could try to review those from time to time even if there is no official review queue
I agree the whole deletion process is a bit flawed though
10:55 AM
@TomV Question is, do we want a solution that supports an otherwise unsupported configuration?
Shouldn't the response be: "Well if Oracle doesn't support it, why would you require it? In case of issues you have no support what-so-ever from Oracle."
@hot2use Good point
Then again, if you realize a configuration is unsupported and you can live with the consequence why wouln't we help people who still want to run that configuration
There is also this here:
Q: How to install Oracle 11gR2 on Ubuntu 14.04?

Prakash ShresthaPlease provide me with the guidance to install oracle 11gr2 on Ubuntu 14.04.

@TomV ...it could be treated as a "link only" answer. (sort of)
@hot2use Yes my first thought was to include "relevant parts" but I gave up
Also "how to install" doesn't really answer the OP's question which is "is there a technical reason it will perform badly"
11:45 AM
Paste the plan integration ^^
12:01 PM
How does permissions to install CLR extensions work on SQL Server? Can you do it with dbo permissions on a specific database or do you need server-wide permission?
12:14 PM
> Permissions
> Requires CREATE ASSEMBLY permission.
> If PERMISSION_SET = EXTERNAL_ACCESS is specified, requires EXTERNAL ACCESS ASSEMBLY permission on the server. If PERMISSION_SET = UNSAFE is specified, requires UNSAFE ASSEMBLY permission on the server.
> User must be the owner of any assemblies that are referenced by the assembly that are to be uploaded if the assemblies already exist in the database. To upload an assembly by using a file path, the current user must be a Windows authenticated login or a member of the sysadmin fixed server role. The Windows login of the user that execute
12:40 PM
@hot2use Doing that is not what we want, to the extent that the system notices it and raises an automatic moderator flag when it happens. For context see meta.stackexchange.com/q/104227 in the FAQ and also meta.stackexchange.com/q/210373.
@PaulWhite Thank you
@hot2use So, do you not think those questions are duplicates? I undeleted your answer, but notice the question has 4 votes to close.
It's ok to say no btw, I haven't had time yet to really look at it.
12:58 PM
@TomV Yeah it's a horrible UI, and /tools doesn't even show all the pending delete votes. I forget the details off hand but I think it might be just the last 45 posts over a maximum of 60 days or something.
This is why some sites have a dedicated chat room for (un)delete votes. It helps bring the attention of those who can (un)delete to the posts that might need their attention. It also provides more of an audit trail.
@hot2use Don't worry. I've now managed to induce ops to install it on my behalf.
Technical solution to a social engineering problem.
Or vice-versa.
1:15 PM
@PaulWhite It depends™
My answer might not be a solution to one or the other issue. I'm just offering a possible solution which might be related.
Ok I'll leave it as it is then.
@PaulWhite And thanks.
Thanks for the feedback.
1:17 PM
I noticed the 4 close votes, but thought it might benefit the community/OP.
Who upvotes stuff like this...
Q: Turning off highlight row in Access datasheet subform

Elizabeth HamI'm working in Access 2016 and I have a few disabled, locked datasheets on my form (to give a big picture summary of related records entered on other forms e.g. address info for a contact). I have edit/ add buttons that open those other forms on the click event, which work great. I am only includ...

Has absolutely zilch to do with database administration
@Colin'tHart no idea
@PaulWhite That's not unreasonable
SQL Server 2019 CTP 2.1 adds Scalar UDF Inlining
Welcome to DBA.SE. We appreciate your participation. Please consider reading the following article: What topics can I ask about here? (Help Centre). Your question seems to be related to programming in Microsoft Access and according to the previously mentioned article might be better suited for Stack Overflow: "Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers."hot2use 37 secs ago
Politely sent her in the right direction.
1:25 PM
Will she be able to read the comment in full, though? Looks like it didn't migrate with the question.
Ah yes, she should be able to read it in her Profile on the Responses tab
@AndriyM Yes they will get an inbox notification for it as usual.
@PaulWhite The notification version might be truncated. Longer comments used to be truncated for me, I don't remember how it is now though
@AndriyM Yes but clicking on the notification will take her to the dba post afaik
Oh indeed, the link has the "noredirect" parameter, it's all good then
We're going to need to update a lot of scalar function posts once that feature goes RTM
1:39 PM
@PaulWhite do you have an example of such a room?
1:49 PM
also chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/89 is it's own close/delete review room
of course we could set our own rules
[Blog] What's New in SQL Server 2019 CTP 2.1: Faster Functions https://www.brentozar.com/archive/2018/11/sql-server-2019-faster-functions/ Last night's new CTP has a really big performance feature. You're gonna love this. I certainly do.
2:11 PM
@PaulWhite I like the FireAlarm Feature.
People love/hate bots
I'm afraid if we add a close vote bot the questions will be closed too quickly by too few users
I don't think we want to have a small crew of users dominating the community in that regard
I saw Evan mentioned in the chat meta SE
2:38 PM
@TomV do you not think we have that already?
I'm not a huge fan of bots myself, but one good effect they can have is to encourage participation
The other side of the coin being that everyone who can VtC can also VtRO
It's interesting to think about whether closing more quickly is a good thing or not
Q: What happened to "What's your best programming joke?"?

EtherOne of the most popular questions on Stack Overflow, What's your best programming joke? has recently been deleted. Why was this done, rather than migrated to programmers.SE? Does this not fall into the broad purview of Programmery questions, or is it really off topic? I'm somewhat neutral on th...

@PaulWhite Not to the extent we would have if we have bots posting every question that received a VtC in this chat room
probably true
This room is also a lot more accessible than a chat room dedicated to close votes
yeah I don't think we have a huge problem with close votes in general
3:11 PM
I think a temporary coordinated effort announced on Meta would be my preferred solution
During winter bash and with a secret hat!
@TomV Should I star that?
3:42 PM
@hot2use pricey!
I guess the base fee is the major cost factor for consumers with smaller electricity bills
1 hour later…
4:57 PM
might it be useful to have a chat room where we list questions that could be deleted in future? For example, this may or may not get auto-deleted, but it certainly doesn't need to hang around. I'd love a place to "save" the URL so it can be revisited in a few days.
@MaxVernon that's what @Paul was linking to above, other sites doing that. Here's a room like that on Math.SE: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/2165/crude
5:14 PM
@jadarnel27 yah, I saw that earlier. It seems like that's something we should do... I just didn't see anyone say they were going to, or that is was even a good idea for us.
I'm going to "take the bull by the horns" and see what happens. Maybe I'll get bucked off.
One of the problems with vote to delete is that there is no 'vote to keep' like there is a 'leave open' vote
@TomV yah, I love it. Eventually that stuff gets deleted :-)
@MaxVernon I would keep that question for example. It's crap but it could help someone go ogling the error realize they made the same silly mistake
@TomV really? Most people would just check that they didn't make a mistake, which is in fact what our OP did in that case, as evidenced by the self-answer. Junk just clutters up the place too much.
@MaxVernon you overestimate most people
5:21 PM
I've always wanted to delete crap questions that have little chance of being helpful. If someone has that same question, they can ask it (which is what they'd do anyway, most likely), and we can just delete that new question, too.
Also true


Use to list questions that can probably be deleted in future.
@MaxVernon you should add a semicolon at the end :)
@TomV and done;
2 hours later…
7:16 PM
@TomV That's one of the reasons I quite like the idea of a dedicated chat room with ideally a good number of sensible people in.
The more 10k+ eyes on this the better
Agree for the deletion part but I'm mostly not sure about a room with bots posting every question that's been voted on in a room with barely any visitors
And obviously moderators can be summoned or flagged at to handle disputes
We'll see how the room max started goes. I'm all in favour of the experiment
@TomV there's no need for bots
Sure I understood rhat
7:31 PM
It's good that @Marx Vernon is keen, and that's a great name for a room, but I kinda wish it had come about at the end of a meta discussion. Can't have everything I suppose! Happy to trial it
Personally I'm more interested in deleting old unloved stuff than relatively new material that might be salvageable
We'll see how it develops
Marx Vernon. I'm sure he approves :)
@TomV At least it was wasn't Marxist.
@PaulWhite sometimes discussions just take way too long. If it becomes tiresome it can just be deleted.
it can still be a topic on meta, such as how to use the room, or what to delete vs what not to delete etc. For that matter, the discussion could easily happen here or in that room. Whatever, I'm not going to be heartbroken either way.
7:46 PM
I suppose the number of people in that room will make it succeed or fail
as far as I'm concerned, it could be a private room for just me where I list stuff I need to look at later.
We need 20k folks too as 10k can't vote on some of the questions that have already been posted
7:58 PM
@MaxVernon have you taken any of the Microsoft certification exams before?
@jadarnel27 not recently. I'm old.
@MaxVernon Haha understood =)
presumably you're asking about the question - I purposely didn't suggest a wide variety of sites that are dedicated to getting you to pass the exam.
I just noticed your comments seem to conflate "studying for that exam" with "learning SQL Server."
Microsoft usually has an up to date list of resources for each exam on their learning site and publishers have prep materials dedicated to a specific exam. You should start with those — Tom V 27 mins ago
^^^ that's the way to go
yah, I saw Tom's nice comment. He's nicer than I am. Plus I'm grumpy right now.
I believe that instead of studying for the exam, you should know the topic.
of course, Microsoft doesn't really see it that way, they want you to take the course.
8:04 PM
Oh, I wasn't really reacting to the niceness of the comments =) The exams are pretty biased towards specific bits. So "knowing the topic" won't always lead to passing the exam.
@MaxVernon Haha sure, but if your requirement is to pass an exam...
(because your employer demands it, etc)
By the way, sorry you're grumpy right now, @Max. Hope your day improves!
@jadarnel27 if the OP simply Googled for their question title, they'd find Microsoft's free exam prep. duckduckgo.com/…
@jadarnel27 sometimes it's hard to explain something simple to someone over the phone when they think they know the answer and accuse you of not listening... but I digress
@MaxVernon just to play devil's advocate, that's a 7 hour series of videos. I'd probably want to find out if others found them helpful before devoting that much time (though of course that's not the kind of thing one should ask on the main site here, as it's off topic).
(that vs third party exam prep vs other options, etc)
Speaking of devil's advocate...
'It's not actually ... it's a DEVICE for EXPLORING a PLAUSIBLE REALITY that's not the one we're in, to gain a broader understanding about it.' 'oh, like a boat!' '...' 'Just for the sake of argument, we should get a boat! You can invite the Devil, too, if you want.'
@jadarnel27 in my mind, any exam that requires you to take "prep" should not be considered useful.
but yah, I see your point.
8:19 PM
My work encourages employees to take exams so we can maintain certain "competency levels" as a Microsoft Partner. So some of it is a business decision, rather than a technical usefulness decision. Check this out, for instance.
Gold level gets you 25 Visual Studio Enterprise licenses with MSDN subscriptions.
Plus there's sales / marketing value in saying that we are certified at particular levels as Microsoft Partners, etc.
All that to say that there are good business cases for taking and passing MS exams.
Regardless of how flawed the system might be.
ahhh, perfect then. I get that 100%.
@MaxVernon I think a meta post would be a great idea. Explain how you'd like it to work and so on. If it's a good post we might even make it to draw attention to it.
@PaulWhite cool, can do..
@PaulWhite perhaps just an answer on your post?
@MaxVernon Maybe, but it might work better as a new post with a link.
Up to you.
8:39 PM
@jadarnel27 the trend to use videos is shit
Back when I did my last exam you had a prep book. You read it on Sunday. Reread some things you noted Monday morning and passed the exam by Monday at noon
@jadarnel27 that's exactly why I was asked to do them
@TomV Yeah, I haven't found those Microsoft Virtual Academy exam prep videos very helpful.
@TomV it's a very practical reason to do it!
Plus then you get to put neat acronyms in your signature block.
9:09 PM
@jadarnel27 do you really?
@TomV well you can if you want to be one of the Cool Kids.
> Josh Darnell, MCP, MCSA, MCSD
@jadarnel27 that's all you got?
9:23 PM
He's also got MCDonalds.
@TomV sad but true.
@PaulWhite very American of me.
only if you super size it
It's the only size I know.
US citizen confirmed
Q: Deleting Unsuitable Content from the Database Administrators Stack

Max VernonFor the backstory, see Paul's post on the topic. If you notice unsuitable content on the site, you can assist in removal. Depending on your reputation, you can assist by taking the following actions: Copy-and-paste the URL for the unsuitable question into the "Drop Question Queue" chat room....

Not his best work IMO.
Why's that?
The SQL Database Engine Blog entry also has the advantage of being written by the primary researcher involved in developing the feature.
I mostly just wanted to use "1-UP'd" in reference to this xkcd.
9:42 PM
@jadarnel27 Not much actual content.
@PaulWhite that's quite an advantage!
Oh snap.
Yeah, the DB engine blog post is very thorough.
10:00 PM
@jadarnel27 Even after Randall asked you nicely... oh well
10:23 PM
@AndriyM I though it would be okay as long as I left out the Mario bit 😋
Hopefully there will be no 1-UP set
11:08 PM
Oh wow, that was good.

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