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12:16 AM
@DoubleAA I have also heard this, until the publicity started coming out for this event that just happened last Sunday night.
What is the difference between gold stars and black stars?
1:11 AM
@AdamMosheh White stars are made by mods, and are sticky (they stay there until they get taken down by a mod). Black stars are stars not starred by you, while golden stars are starred by you
1 hour later…
2:28 AM
Q: Mobile version not working on some phones

AlexAt my suggestion, a friend (first-time user) was going to post a question, but his phone brought up the full site rather than the mobile one, and he found it too troublesome to navigate. I just tried it from my own phone, too, and actually, I can't even bring up the mobile version; the link high...

2:55 AM
room topic changed to V'dibarta Bam: "And speak [of|with] them" - Deut.6:7 judaism.stackexchange.com (no tags)
room topic changed to V'dibarta Bam: "And speak [of|with] them" - Deut.6:7 Chat about Jewish Life and Learning with the people of judaism.stackexchange.com (no tags)
room topic changed to V'dibarta Bam: "And speak [of|with] them" - Deut.6:7 A place to of Jewish life and learning with the people of judaism.stackexchange.com (no tags)
room topic changed to V'dibarta Bam: "And speak [of|with] them" - Deut.6:7 A place to of Jewish life and learning with the people of mi.yodeya.com (no tags)
^^ Open to suggested revisions. Other mods: feel free to change it at your discretion.
3:08 AM
For your convenience: bam.yodeya.com
3:30 AM
@IsaacMoses It's very cluttered. Can we get rid of 'with'?
@IsaacMoses Also, can we get a line break before "A place to SPEAK of Jewish...."
@DoubleAA Trying to be true to the proposal, but yeah.
@DoubleAA I can't do a line break, but I can try to simulate one ...
room topic changed to V'dibarta Bam: "And speak [of|with] them" - Deut.6:7 A place to of Jewish life and learning with the people of mi.yodeya.com (no tags)
@IsaacMoses Can you hyperlink to mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0506.htm#7
room topic changed to V'dibarta Bam: "And speak * them" - Deuteronomy 6:7 A place to of Jewish life and learning with the people of mi.yodeya.com (no tags)
room topic changed to V'dibarta Bam: "And speak of them" - Deuteronomy 6:7 A place to of Jewish life and learning with the people of mi.yodeya.com (no tags)
room topic changed to V'dibarta Bam: *"And speak of them" - Deuteronomy 6:7 A place to speak of Jewish life and learning with the people of mi.yodeya.com (no tags)*
room topic changed to V'dibarta Bam: "And speak of them" - Deuteronomy 6:7 A place to speak of Jewish life and learning with the people of mi.yodeya.com (no tags)
@DoubleAA Can only do plain URLs. No hyperlinked other text
@IsaacMoses Maybe you should request the feature.
room topic changed to V'dibarta Bam: "And speak of them" - Deuteronomy 6:7 The place to speak of Jewish life and learning with the people of mi.yodeya.com (no tags)
room topic changed to V'dibarta Bam: "And speak of them" - Deuteronomy 6:7 Speak of Jewish life and learning with the people of mi.yodeya.com (no tags)
@DoubleAA Eh. I don't use the chatroom description editor that often.
@DoubleAA How is it now?
3:45 AM
@IsaacMoses Sorry. It definitely looks cleaner than before. Possibly someone may come up with a cleaner phrasing, but for the most part I think now it's just a matter of getting used to.
@msh210 See he.wikipedia.org/wiki/… It's not a proof, but it's hard to find vowelized Hebrew words on the internets.
@DoubleAA Right. Thanks.
1 hour later…
5:04 AM
@IsaacMoses On the chat homepage you can only see two lines of the text, so it doesn't give you a good feel for the contents of the room. But that might just have to be the way it is. Unless you want to switch the quote and the description.
11 hours later…
3:40 PM
room topic changed to V'dibarta Bam: "And speak of them" - Deut. 6:7 Speak of Jewish life and learning with the people of mi.yodeya.com (no tags)
^^ maybe? @IsaacMoses @DoubleAA (Obviously feel free to change it back (if you can).)
@IsaacMoses Emeril would approve.
Actually, this will save a slight amount of width along the line (though use the same number of characters):
room topic changed to V'dibarta Bam: "And speak of them" (Deut. 6:7) Speak of Jewish life and learning with the people of mi.yodeya.com (no tags)
1 hour later…
5:08 PM
Q: Should we censor the term "goy" when used in English to mean "gentile"?

Isaac MosesThe word "goy", used in an English context, can mean: "Gentile" - colloquially and innocuously "Gentile" - as a disparaging slur (It can also mean "Nation" generically and innocuously in a Hebrew context.) Given that the disparaging usage is, in fact, found ("matzui") in the wild and is, in ...

5:30 PM
Start of Parashat Hashavua' Chat #23 - Bamidbar
Welcome @DoubleAA @jake @Alex
@msh210 Not Begin?
@DoubleAA I decided I like the noun better than the imperative. The imperative is too... imperative.
Anyone have anything?
@msh210 aleichem shalom.
How come the assignments of Bnei Kehos (at the end of our parshah) are separated from those of the other two families, and from the counts of all three (in Naso)?
@Alex Sorry? I don't see that they're separated. What do you mean?
It goes from K'has right to Ger'shon and then M'rari.
5:36 PM
@msh210 One's in this parshah, the rest are in next week's. IOW, the question isn't about the arrangement in the Torah, but about the division of the parshiyos.
@Alex Ah, I see.
@Alex Pardon me for being predictable here, but Abarbanel discusses it at the beginning of Naso. hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14388&st=&pgnum=14
@jake Ah, interesting! He says that it's in order to give honor to Gershon as the older brother. Yasher koach!
@Alex Hmm, indeed. I didn't remember what he said there.
By the way, @jake, yasher koach for suggesting what turned out to be the winning chat room name.
5:44 PM
I was wondering if "degel machane..." in the beginning of the parsha means that the camps actually had flags, or is it just a phrase used for "the encampment of...". And if they did have actual flags, do we know what tey look like?
@Alex Baruch tihye. It wasn't my favorite suggestion, but I thought people might like it.
@jake IIRC The Midrash Says or The Little Midrash Says knows what they looked like.
@msh210 :) I've also seen pictures in parsha sheets and related literature, but where do they gets these things from?
(But even if they did have flags, that doesn't mean "degel machane X" doesn't simply mean "encampment of X".)
@jake Rashi to 2:2 says that yes, באתת means that they had flags with emblems on them. Bamidbar Rabbah 2:7 lists the colors and the designs.
@Alex Ah, thank you!
5:48 PM
@Alex Thanks. I wonder if the midrash is making drashas from the text, or if it is a tradition passed down what the flags looked like. I'll have to check it out.
@jake Come to think of it, Rashi doesn't say anything about emblems - if you take what he says at face value, each tribe might have had just a flag with a solid color. The Midrash there adds the idea that באתת means "with symbols."
@Alex Yes, but how does the midrash know what the symbols were? That's what I was wondering.
@jake Dunno.
As for whether degel means "flag" or "encampment" or whatever, Dave once had a long post about it, at balashon.com/2008/05/degel.html.
If I can switch topics? 1:51 says v'hazar hakarev yumas, the stranger who approaches shall die. Rashi: bide Shamayim, at the hands of God. The Tosefes B'racha says Rashi had to tell us this (implying death) because usually yumas without the infinitive (i.e. not mos yumas) means a lesser punishment than death, as in v'gam b'alav yumas (in Mishpatim). Anyone know of another instance where yumas is used without the infinitive to mean death/non-death?
Link to Midrah Rabbah 2:7 for those interested.
5:54 PM
@jake Thanks :-)
@msh210 There was the discussion a couple of weeks ago, here, about איש בחטאו יומתו.
@Alex ...which doesn't really touch on what the verb yumas means there.
@msh210 It sort of does, indirectly: whether it means court-imposed punishment, or Hashem's.
@msh210 From a little mechon-mamre action, found Vayikra 24:16: "כַּגֵּר, כָּאֶזְרָח--בְּנָקְבוֹ-שֵׁם, יוּמָת"
Although the beginning of the pasuk is "וְנֹקֵב שֵׁם-יְהוָה מוֹת יוּמָת"
@jake which is again death. Rashi says nothing there.
@jake Oh. yeah.
5:59 PM
@jake Here's a better one, maybe: Deut. 13:6, והנביא ההוא... יומת, where it means that the court executes him.
Lev 24:21 umake adam yumas - court-imposed death
@Alex Was just about to say that one.
yeah, so it's curious he (Tosefes B'racha) said that instead of saying the obvious "Rashi said this because otherwise we'd think it means court-imposed death"
Tosefes B'racha (PDF) by the way
...especially because he (suppoedly) had a photographic memory.
oh, hi, @MonicaCellio. Sorry, didn't see you come in.
@msh210 hi, just snuck in late, hiding in the back of the classroom. :-) (Well, back-reading.)
@msh210 Try Shemot 35:2
ששת ימים תעשה מלאכה וביום השביעי יהיה לכם קדש שבת שבתון ליקוק כל העשה בו מלאכה יומת
6:08 PM
@DoubleAA Yep, another court-death one
@msh210 Maybe he'd argue something like this: With Shabbos, and some of the other examples given, since elsewhere the Torah makes it clear (by saying מות יומת\ימות) that the death penalty is called for, then it can say just יומת in other places - whereas with a zar and the Mishkan, it always just says יומת.
But there'd still be the case of the false navi, unless you could say that the expression at the end of that verse ובערת הרע מקרבך makes it clear that it means that we are to execute him.
@Alex, plausible.
Just a good parallel with entering the mikdash Divrei 2 23 7:
והקיפו הלוים את המלך סביב איש וכליו בידו **והבא אל הבית יומת** והיו את המלך בבאו ובצאתו:
Ready for an additional question?
@DoubleAA I think that was a special case, what with having to make sure no one would try to rescue Asalyah or assassinate Yehoash.
6:13 PM
@MonicaCellio Shoot.
I'm wondering what's with all the repetition. First we get the names of the nsai'im, then we get the counts per tribe, then we get the assigned camp locations for each tribe repeating the nasi and the count... and the census descriptions themselves have a lot of repetition, when they could have just said the count and not all the 20+, for war, by their tribes, etc stuff. Why is the torah so verbose here?
I know of an explanation for the repition in Nasso, so each gift (and thus giver) gets full honor, but that doesn't seem to apply here?
Q: Why does parshat bamidbar repeat census information?

MenachemIt seems that the 3rd aliyah in Bamidbar needlessly repeats the information given in the 1st and second aliyah First Aliyah: Lists the leaders of each tribe Second Aliyah: gives us the census information for each tribe Third Aliyah: Describes the order the Tribes camped in. However, the third...

@Alex oh, missed that! Thanks.
@Alex Fastest draw in the East.
So now we have the repetition of a question about repetition! :)
6:18 PM
@Alex indeed! Just about one year later, as expected. Everything old is new again. :-)
New topic: Why a new sefer here? What would have been so terrible if this were the 11th parsha of sefer Vayikra?
@jake I wonder if this is the beginning of the "it's gonna be 40 years, not just a few days" phase? But closer to Sh'lach L'cha would be better for that, I would think.
@jake Isn't the purpose of Vayikra basically to teach us the laws of kohanim, korbanos and kedushah? The census information doesn't really relate to any of that.
@Alex That's what I was thinking. "Toras kohanim", right?
@MonicaCellio Possibly. The main reason for the census was probably the military, being thet they expected to enter Israel immediately. Then things changed...
6:22 PM
@MonicaCellio Rashi someplace (will have to look for it) says that actually, Hashem had in mind the delay in the desert from right after the sin with the Golden Calf; He just bided His time until actually imposing the punishment.
@Alex In that case, though, we probably should have started somewhere around Behar.
@jake Maybe, though the laws of shemittah and yovel also relate to the kedushah of Eretz Yisrael.
@Alex And arachin and n'darim have to do with the mikdash.
@msh210 Right, although if it were just that, then those could have been placed earlier.
@Alex yeah, just adding
6:25 PM
@Alex Plausbile. Although I'm more partial to @MonicaCellio's suggestion. Something along the lines of "Those were all the mitzvos told to Moshe in te Ohel moed. Now back to the story at hand..."
@jake I heard that the plan at this time was still to enter Israel directly, and if you add the parts of Bamidbar until Shelach to Sefer Vayikra you get a book about the same size as Sefer Bereishit or Sefer Shemot
Found the Rashi I was thinking of: Num. 14:33
So it's as if only after we rerouted to hang around the dessert and created a whole new story line did things get redistributed.
And in the new set the plans for traveling and all fits in nicely with the rest of bamidbar which is about their travels.
@DoubleAA Well, there is also the opinion that the first 10 chapters of Bamidbar are a book unto themselves, and ch. 11 begins a new book (with the two of them divided by Vayehi Binsoa, 10:35-36). So that would fit with that idea too.
@Alex Yes I thought of that but I don't know if it's necessarily related because the break isn't exactly where I'd want it to be. But it is pretty close.
I don't have a source for any of this BTW
6:29 PM
@DoubleAA nor do I. There's just something that feels right about kedusha laws in one book, back to the travels in another ("back to the story", as @jake said).
But I don't know if I'm projecting a reasoning onto the division we were given or if I would have come up with that division starting from nothing...
@MonicaCellio Which, in that sense - and this is how they teach them in most schools, too - it's more of a direct continuation from the end of Shemos
@MonicaCellio Right but imagine there were no travels: the Jews would march in build the mikdash and set up permanent camp.
Then all of Vayikra is the immediate prep to conquest.
Followed by Sefer Yehoshua (thought it wouldn't be called that)
@DoubleAA Imagine if they had, though! All of that effort for something that would be used for only a couple of months!
I think in fact R. Avigdor Miller uses that as evidence that Hashem had the forty-year stay in the desert planned all along
@Alex but what a great version 1! To have the same craftsmen then go and make the temple... wow.
@MonicaCellio True.
6:32 PM
@Alex You're assuming the land would be redistributed like it ends up in our Yehoshua. Since this is all hypothetical, it's not so crazy to think the split up in Israel would have been different.
@DoubleAA Not sure I'm following. What's the division of Eretz Yisrael have to do with the fact that they'd put the Mishkan in storage and build the BHMK?
Besides, at least some of the divisions were already implied or stated in Yaakov's blessings.
@Alex Ahhhh I thought you were referring to the work they put into setting up camps.
@Alex I assume they would have used the mishkan in E"Y until they finished building the BHM"K, which could have been years.
@jake I assume so too. How long did it take to build the mishkan?
@jake Which they did, in the event, at least for the fourteen years in Gilgal. True.
6:35 PM
(That's a reasonable lower bound on temple-building.)
@MonicaCellio a few months tops
@MonicaCellio They started the day after Yom Kippur, and it was first set up at the end of Adar. Though there's a midrash that says that they actually finished the work by Chanukah.
Even if it didn't get much use, the Mishkan would still have been symbolic of a proper transfer from Har Sinai to Israel, so it doesn't bug me much if it didn't get too much use. Plus a lot of keilim were/could have been reused.
@MonicaCellio much-much lower bound. I'd assume it would take about the same amount of time it took Shlomo to build it. Possibly even longer, since they didn't have the resources and international connections that Shlomo had.
@jake And in fact, there's a midrash somewhere that praises Shlomo for being "quick in his work" and finishing construction in only seven years.
6:37 PM
@Alex I didn't know that one. Thanks.
Yes, stonework is much harder/longer than building planks and sheetwalls. On the other hand, they wouldn't have had to remake the kelim, which helps a little.
And whether it would have been a few months or seven years, using the mishkan for such a "short" time wouldn't bother me either. On a much smaller scale we build a sukkah that we only use for a week... the absolute time isn't the important part.
Official end of Parashat Hashavua' Chat #23 - Bamidbar but of course please feel free to continue to chat about it unofficially.
@MonicaCellio Yes and no, about the kelim. They didn't have to remake the originals, true, but for example we find that Shlomo made ten extra menorahs and ten extra tables.
Good chat today folks!
@Alex and a large pool, and huge pillars, and...
@msh210 IIRC that stuff was for the royal palace, not the BHM"K.
6:44 PM
@jake Nope. They're listed in II Kings 6-7 along with all of the stuff for the BHMK.
@Alex Ok, then. Time to review Sefer Melachim.
@Alex did he need to? Would he have needed to if he could have built sooner?
@jake yeah, me too...
@MonicaCellio Huh? They still had the original menorah and shulchan, he just added extra ones (not as spares, but actually set up flanking the original ones).
@Alex I didn't check, but that should probably be I Kings.
@jake Whoops, you're right, of course.
6:49 PM
@Alex yes, the question is: were these extras actually necessary, or were they embellishment? If we're trying to figure out how long to a functional temple, do we count that time? (Not knocking embellishment, to be clear...)
@MonicaCellio Got it. Well, in I Chron. 28:11ff David gives Shlomo all of the details of the structure and the vessels (including the extra menorahs and tables), and at the end (v. 19) he says that it is all "in writing from the hand of G-d."
So it sounds like they were all required.
@ShmuelBrin The white ones expire after some time.
@Alex Probably not deoraita. It's just saying this decision had the approval of God, lest we complain about David adding things (especially foreign molten forms in the mikdash!).
@Alex ah, good point.
Gotta run; thanks for the great chat! Back later...
@DoubleAA Not necessarily deoraysa, true, but the Gemara does quote this verse in a few places to show that the blueprint was unalterable.
I have to go too. Thanks, y'all, as always, for a stimulating conversation, and a happy Shavuos to all - with wishes for "receiving the Torah with joy and inwardly," as the Chabad rebbeim used to say.
7:04 PM
By the way, if anyone finds a source or sees anyone else say the idea I presented about the first part of Bamidbar 'originally' being in Vayikra please let me know, as I honestly have no recollection as to where I heard it from.
7:40 PM
mi.yodeya is now in the SE Data Explorer.
2 hours later…
10:01 PM
@DoubleAA This is interesting.
10:23 PM
Q: "Jewish Life and Learning" in Data Explorer

msh210The Data Explorer URLs still use the old name of the site, "Jewish Life and Learning", instead of the new one, "Mi Yodeya". E.g., http://data.stackexchange.com/jewish%20life%20and%20learning/queries.

11:13 PM
@msh210 jake does pretty well here as well.

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