TRPG General Chat

2:04 AM

I'm going to throw this out there though perhaps it's better for a dedicated meta: I, personally, am not crazy about questions trying to dictate the form/criteria of answers. It seems to me that's what expert voters should be doing. In this example you say you want something verifiable--but we have no idea why. So we're left to judge answers on whether they satisfy your standard of verifiability. Contrast that with if you'd described the situation you're in (which, I presume, generates the need for verification) and left voters to decide what makes a good answer. That's all I've got. — nitsua60 ♦ 26 secs ago

That feels like a strange comment to have left. If you see something better/different I should have done please go ahead and give me a nudge in the right direction.

Joel Harmon

2:30 AM

@nitsua60 nudge Perhaps it would have been better to say the default behavior on the site is to back it up and cite sources (citation needed)? Or is it not trusting the voting to bring the 'best', that is, most authentic, answers up to the top?

I'm also somewhat rankled that if Matt posted some random recollections to Reddit one time, that they'd be accepted over a rabid fan's thoroughly documented and video-cross-referenced fan site.

Ben

3:34 AM

Our First Look at Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice!

►

CC @Miniman

kviiri

4:29 AM

Morning

Ben

Afternoon

My first impression of Sekiro is that it would be unfair to compare it to Dark Souls and Bloodborne. The feel of the game is hugely different to both - particularly in the freedom and speed of movement. Combat is not the primary function of the game anymore. Avoiding combat is just as viable, if not preferred.

The HUD seems to enforce this, by pointing out enemies that have your focus (the green, yellow and red indicators) which would mean that your goal is to lose that focus, and sneak in again to get the critical hits.

What I do know however, is I want it

kviiri

4:55 AM

With Valve releasing Proton, I'm suddenly far more interested in modern games again

Miniman

@Ben Way ahead of you. Twice :P

And yeah, it looks amazing.

Ben

I didn't doubt it haha. I haven't been overly attentive with this lol.

I hope they release a demo for us to play

Miniman

I'd disagree that avoiding enemies is encouraged, though. Given that fighting lets you build up extra lives and more uses of your prosthetics, it seems like they're trying to discourage running straight to a boss without killing things on the way.

Ben

@Miniman Yeah that's true. I suppose I meant favouring Stealth over straight up combat, due to the takedown mechanic.

Mike Q

From what I've heard, they want to discourage the playstyles of older games, where you perform lateral dodge-rolls like some spastic acrobat

Now you have a Just Cause / Bat-hook grappling device

Miniman

5:11 AM

Yeah, I'm excited to try combat that replaces both blocking and dodging with parrying.

Mike Q

Same, I was never a fan of having to memorize the angles at which I should jump toward enemy attacks

I suppose one could argue that a weird and unnatural mechanic was appropriate for a game about the weird and unnatural

Ben

@MikeQ I-frames is my big thing. It makes it a video game when I-frames are part of the gameplay.

That sounded weird. Lol. I mean in terms of immersion. When a game has invincibility frames it ruins that immersion.

Mike Q

5:29 AM

Something like that. In most other games I've played, when something attacks you, you either block or dodge away. Diving into the hazard, because there is a specific window of frames where the hazard is safe, seems kinda silly.

Ben

@MikeQ In bloodborne, I can understand it. It's aggressive, and that's the whole point of that game. Using aggression as a defense.

Miniman

@Ben I like stagger better as a mechanic aimed at that goal.

Mike Q

I mean, parrying was kind of aggressive too, since it forced you to get close. Plus it was really rewarding and fun to master. But jumping around like a maniac just felt too messy.

Ben

@Miniman Stagger in Bloodborne or in Sekiro?

trogdor

6:12 AM

@Miniman doesn't Dark Souls (and I think also Bloodborn) have parrying as well?

Ben

@trogdor In a different way. Dark Souls and Bloodborne use it to create an opening in the defense. In Sekiro it is used as defense.

trogdor

@Ben I dunno, I do think I-frames are not for every game, but they originated in games where you take damage by simple contact

@Ben it still interrupts an attack though right?

That's what it looks like

You time it right and you stop attacks that it works on and stagger the attacker?

It seems like that's both offensive and defensive

Ben

@trogdor Nope. The whole concept is that you parry blows to stop yourself from taking damage. instead it affects your "stance". When that is compromised, (i.e. your "stance meter" fills up) you are knocked off balance, allowing an opening.

Parrying an enemies attacks fills their "stance" meter

BESW

6:35 AM

For all those times you need to get your Barbarian dry-cleaned.

Tweeted by fredhicks on August 23, 2018 at 8:44 PM

Miniman

@trogdor Yeah, but it's basically a quicktime event divorced from the actual flow of combat. I'm excited to parry like it's a normal thing.

trogdor

@Miniman fair enough

I didn't mean to imply it was the same thing

Just that parry does exist In those games

BESW

Some hard truth here about how so much speculative fiction worldbuilding casually implies eugenics.

Miniman

@Ben As in, if the goal is to encourage offensive play, stagger actually encourages it "attack because it's the only way to stop them hitting you" as opposed to "dodge into the attack, because that's the form of defense that works". The latter doesn't encourage offensive play so much as it encourages offensive positioning. You're still being defensive, you're just parked on the enemy you're defending against.

Ben

True

trogdor

6:43 AM

It's definitely interesting if a game is coming out that has some form of in depth party system

Miniman

@trogdor Wait, what?

trogdor

isn't that what you were talking about?

and if you are saying what because some exist already, how do you expect me to know what every game is and all games that already have one?

er pary

I have no idea how the t got in there

kviiri

6:58 AM

@BESW One of my favorite "so bad it's good" episodes of Star Trek: TNG has some REALLY unfortunate implications similar to this. The Enterprise takes shore leave on a planet populated by "human aliens" who live in a Garden of Eden -esque paradise without want or suffering, including lots of free sex with everyone including the Enterprise crew.

Ben

oh Parry lol

trogdor

yes sheesh, must have been on my phone still for that one

as I have said before, it screws my words over

kviiri

So what's the downside? They arrived at such state by executing every criminal, no matter how minor or accidental their transgression.

...and everyone on the planet is a white blonde. EVERYONE.

Ben

@trogdor Yeah, it is the first I've seen with a parry system like though, definitely

trogdor

@kviiri oh wow that is just,.... wow

kviiri

7:00 AM

For an episode that's supposedly speaking for moderation in punishment, it sure paints a weirdly pleasing picture for a world that has been executing people for even breaking windows by accident.

trogdor

that's definitely a weird way to handle that

from the sound of it

BESW

Yeah, Star Trek is... often too far up its own h*cking allegory to notice that their extremely homogenous writer's room has stumbled into a bad corner of scifi.

(See also: Ferengi were written as capitalist satire but wound up with a lot of antisemitic stereotypes.)

Ben

I do enjoy the chaos of chat sometimes. Reading through parts of it with no context makes no sense whatsoever

2

trogdor

@BESW yeah unfortunately very true

BESW

Oh, and Riker vs La Forge. [sigh]

Ben

7:11 AM

@BESW Please tell me "h*ck" is now a cuss word haha

trogdor

@BESW huh?

BESW

@Ben Yes, the absurdity of censoring a phrase that's already been bowlderized is attractively amusing, and was popularized by WeRateDogs™.

Ben

Love it

BESW

@trogdor So, in TNG you've got a disabled person: Geordi LaForge is blind. But the actor, LeVar Burton isn't. Okay, that's a questionable but typical casting choice.

trogdor

@BESW ok following so far

BESW

7:15 AM

But Jonathan Frakes had an actual disability that he was forced to hide for his role as William Riker.

trogdor

oh ok wow that is

BESW

156

A: What is the origin of the "Riker Chair Maneuver"?

Allegedly a back injury is behind the maneuver. From a post on Reddit and confirmed by Wil Wheaton. Scroll down the Reddit post to find the section pasted below. The reply from user 'wil' is Mr. Wheaton. [–]AmishAvenger 1162 points 2 days ago* Frakes had a back injury, caused by havin...

trogdor

wtf

that is really crazy there

I was confused because I thought maybe I missed an episode where there was an election on the ship they both ran in or something

BESW

Alas, much worse.

trogdor

yeah

BESW

7:23 AM

I mean, points for portraying a blind person in their utopian future, but though it's somewhat flattened by making assistive technology have it effectively "not count." And then massive demerits for having an actor with an actual visible physical disability who had to endure unnecessary pain in order to hide it.

trogdor

yeaaaah

I am actually much more upset by that second part

yes they could have casted the blind character with a,.... blind actor, (though biasedly I like Levar Burton so,.... yeah) ... they could have also portrayed it differently, but I do think they were going for hope in technology of the future

doesn't make it fully ok but I can understand what they were shooting for I think

but letting Mr Frakes suffer that much to hide a painful back injury is pretty messed up

BESW

The thread I linked above points out that not all people with a disability want to be "fixed," and that portraying a future where disabilities are all fixed like La Forge's is another kind of more subtle erasure.

trogdor

also fair

BESW

(cf the deaf and austistic communities.)

trogdor

I am not trying to say that it was perfectly ok

it just, it doesn't upset me as much as the second thing

BESW

7:27 AM

Yeah. Layers of whoopies in there.

trogdor

erasure is bad but I don't want to argue it is worse than,... physical torture

BESW

Yeeeah.

trogdor

which is what I choose to classify,.... that,.. as

Helwar

7:51 AM

@trogdor Isn't torture a bit of an exaggeration here? :P As for the term "disability", does this really apply? He has an injury, but he is not "disabled" in any way, is it? It might be a semantics issue, in Spanish the word "Invalido" is reserved to people that really can't do certain actions

trogdor

@Helwar a back injury where he has to sit down most of the time and lean on stuff when he stands isn't a disability?

BESW

There's not a great word in English, at the moment, for referring to the broad spectrum of people for whom everyday tasks are made more difficult because their physical reality isn't accommodated by their surroundings.

trogdor

yeah, might be a language thing to be fair

we don't have a widely accepted better word

and yeah I classify it as torture

my reasoning being they hold his job over his head to force him to do painful stuff, and multiple times too because they need multiple takes

that's just how the industry works

BESW

But "disabled" absolutely included people with chronic pain because everyday tasks, which others take for granted, become tests of endurance.

Helwar

@trogdor Well, as I said, it's semantics. I agree that's a bad condition, but In spanish we reserve the word "Disability" (or it's equivalent) for severe cases... Like losing movility on an extremity or losing a sense, etc...

BESW

7:57 AM

To take a very common example, you don't have to be unable to walk in order to qualify for a handicapped placard that lets you park near the door; it's sufficient that walking some distance is a significant trial.

trogdor

they don't physically force him but they do have social and monetary stature over him they could use to force him to do something he wouldn't find comfortable

Helwar

@trogdor My take on this is, he knew the job meant standing around and repeating actions countless times and he still took it. Some accomodations coul've been done, like letting him rest more or something, but.... He agreed to play that role

trogdor

you don't have to tie up or strap down someone to hurt them over a prolonged period of time several times

@Helwar but my point is,.. what if he really needed that job?

what if he couldn't just walk out or negotiate better working conditions because of the obvious power imbalance between employer and employee?

power imbalance is a thing, the workplace is an easy example of it

Helwar

I'm not gonna say that's not the case, but it could also be that they did let him rest more often or something like that, and he decided to cope with it because he enjoyed his job otherwise?

I dunno, i'm optimistic by nature

BESW

Even setting aside the "he agreed to play the role" element (as Troggy hints at, circumstances don't always let us say "no" when we should, especially in the context of employment in a society that doesn't have effective social safety nets), there's no good reason to insist that Riker not have a back injury.

trogdor

8:01 AM

it wasn't all ok just because he took the job is all I am saying

Helwar

@BESW Oh no, I don't say he doesn't have an injury, as I said, it was more of an issue of semantics than me not believing he was injured

trogdor

@Helwar he actually just means the character there

BESW

I'm saying that the show could've just let Frakes play the character with an injury.

trogdor

not the actor playing him who does

BESW

I suspect Roddenberry meddling on that one. His utopian vision was pretty bent.

trogdor

8:03 AM

he doesn't mean you were saying the guy doesn't have one

Helwar

@trogdor Oh! Misunderstanding!

trogdor

yeah :)

Helwar

I think that RIker always looked a teensy bit revelious 'cause of his lean and chair shenanigans. Not that he didn't respect command, but like he was that kid that's forced to wear a uniform to school and does, but he doesn't tuck the shirt under the pants 'cause he's a rebel

or something

It's funny to learn that it wasn't intended, and it was just the actor trying to lessen his pain

"funny", pain is not, but you get what I mean

trogdor

yeah

I mean,... I always thought similarly

that his character was just the guy who was doing that because it,... expressed something

this is pretty distressing to hear that it was actually due to,... this

BESW

As for the phrasing: in most American parlance, "disability" is a term of art meaning that the person has been medically examined and found to have a condition, temporary or permanent, which makes it difficult enough to conduct tasks of day-to-day living that they should qualify for assistive services.

trogdor

8:09 AM

yeah I suppose it means something different in other languages

I was making the mistake of assuming it kinda meant the exact same thing

X(

BESW

Based on what little we know and can observe of it, a back injury like Frakes', which made it difficult to do repetitive motions necessary for his job, would probably have qualified now, if not thirty years ago.

Helwar

@BESW I get it. Semantics. In spanish "DIsabled" (Invalido) is such a big word, reserved for worse cases

BESW

Yeah, "invalid" is also a word in English and it carries much stronger connotations.

trogdor

@Helwar so, do you have a different word for other stuff?

Helwar

ON the top of my head not a generic one. The best I can come up with is "mild disability", but I don't hear that too often.

trogdor

8:12 AM

we have,.. "condition" but that also has some connotations to it

@Helwar fair enough, just curious there

BESW

(And while "invalid" is still present in formal/legal contexts, as an everyday word it's now considered pretty rude.)

Helwar

It's ok :) I'm just sad i can't remember right now

BESW

(Source: I'm the primary caregiver for a disabled relative, and have a number of friends and clients who need varying degrees of assistive support for everyday tasks.)

Helwar

Invalid here can be rude, depending on how is used. But it's also used legally. (Grado de Invalidez = Degree of Invalidity? is what determines what kind of social help are you entitled to)

trogdor

Handicap is a word we used to use but it has,... really negative connotations to it

BESW

8:14 AM

There's a lot of official legal terminology in America too, where compassionate terminology has advanced in the common sphere but the legal terms have not been altered accordingly.

trogdor

in fact technically a lot of people still use it, I myself didn't know until earlier this year why it is wrong to use it

Helwar

In spain... Figure someone is paraplegic. You can say to him he is Invalid without being rude, but since the word can be used as an insult too, you can say "he is paraplegic", but don't have a generic word like "disabled"

trogdor

(apparently it comes from veterans in,... I forget which war,.. coming home, and being variously injured and so forth)

BESW

One common rule of thumb is to use the terms as adjectives rather than nouns.

Helwar

@BESW Oh yeah, big red line not to cross there

BESW

8:18 AM

That's just a really simple way to avoid being super insensitive (same with indigenous terms, eg "an Aborigine" erases the continent-wide diversity of the Aboriginal people of Australia).

kviiri

Aye

My language has largely avoided the euphemism treadmill with physical injuries, although our generic go-to word for "disabled" (both adjective and noun) is occasionally used as a generic negative adjective. For some reason it hasn't really displaced the term's proper use though.

Also, I agree re: Frakes.

trogdor

8:33 AM

@kviiri that sounds similar to ours,... here disabled is the technical term but it's sort of also taken an insulting meaning too

BESW

8:46 AM

There's a movement to "reclaim" the term disabled, which of course is also not universally accepted amongst the people who might use it but does seem to be gaining some momentum.

Really in conversations longer than a tweet most folks can tell if you're trying to be respectful whether you're using their preferred terminology or not; and of course it's good to just ask!

Helwar

I might be the exception, but usually I'm positive/optimistic regarding other people, and if unclear I lean towards believing in the inherent good of humanity

so I would think they are not trying to be offensive, unless is obvious that they are

trogdor

@Helwar I envy that

XD

Helwar

@trogdor Don't, it leads to high amounts of disapointment

trogdor

fair enough

BESW

Some folks have an understandable suspicion about peoples' attitudes toward certain aspects of their lives, just because those things about them are badly handled on a societal level.

Speaking as someone with a high degree of optimism and a low degree of marginalization, it's easier to assume good faith about things that don't actually get thrown in my face a lot.

I also know it's easy for me to stick my foot in my mouth with the best of intentions, and my intentions don't make it any easier for the people I'm making it hard for.

Helwar

8:56 AM

@BESW that happens to me too. As it is often said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions

BESW

I work hard to take those times as opportunities to learn and improve, and to not take "I did a bad thing" as equivalent to "I am a bad person," which is a very easy trap to fall into but it leads to denial or despair rather than improvement.

trogdor

mmm

Anaphory

10:42 AM

@trogdor Why actually is that the case? What are its connotations, apart from “non-equal playing field”, which make it bad? Or is it the “non-equal playing field” itself which is considered negative for some reason?

trogdor

It's a little complicated

BESW

Insults don't really have to make logical sense.

trogdor

Yeah

BESW

But in this case, "invalid" and "disabled" both tend to imply that the person is somehow incomplete, and/or incapable of contributing to society.

trogdor

I think part of it is how both media and people in everyday life use the word

As unfortunate as it is, there are plenty of times extra meaning is at least implied

Especially towards the direction @BESW says above here

If enough people use the word in a particular way it takes on that meaning

kviiri

10:56 AM

When I was in Tanzania, my favorite hangout was Neema Crafts, a restaurant/cafe/hotel run chiefly by people with a variety of impairments. The point was not only to help these people provide for themselves but also to help them contribute despite living in a culture where they are by default assumed to be just a burden for their family to bear.

trogdor

Heck, it's not just this area

We have tons of stereotypes about race, sex, sexual orientation, proffesions, people with certain hobbies or interests

This kind of problem is pervasive in our society

BESW

@kviiri One of my computer learning clients was a visually impaired man who was working on opening a pawn shop with the intent of hiring exclusively VI youths, specifically because they were being told by their teachers and councellors that they had no chance of skilled professional achievement.

trogdor

That isn't to say it's hopeless, just that you can't swing a small stick around without finding a similar problem somewhere

BESW

Yeah. So labels that emphasize helplessness or incompleteness are... fraught.

trogdor

Yeah

BESW

11:06 AM

Labels like "disabled" can also (as we saw above) obscure the spectrum of capacity they encompass.

trogdor

One issue is, if you change the word, over time we could see the same problem if wider society isn't ready to engage with the community they are labeling

The word isn't the root of the problem

BESW

Everybody who can walk but has a parking placard for some reason, has stories about being belligerently confronted by people who take the wheelchair symbol literally and think only wheelchair-bound people should be allowed to use those spaces.

trogdor

It's a problem but fixing it alone won't do much long term

@BESW I worked breifly with a guy who had to fight just to get our building to put in a blue parking space

We have one now but it's just painted

:/

It's not a full legal space

He can walk but,

... he still needed that

Also the stairs but that's a whole other thing

Anaphory

I get that, I was wondering specifically about ‘handicapped’, which to me sounds better than “disabled” or even “with disabilities” or “…-impaired”.

@BESW Side remark on nouns vs. adjectives vs. attributive phrases: I once got an introduction into German penal law, and one of the things I remember is the difference in phrasing between murder (§211 “Murderer is, who …”, essentially phrased like that in 1941) and eg. bodily harm (§223 “Whosoever mistreats another person bodily, …”, essentially from 1998) – There is a lot of reinterpretation necessary to make that Nazi phrasing work in law in pratice.

BESW

@Anaphory Ah, yeah. In disability contexts, the rule of thumb is "people first." That is, "woman who is blind" rather than "a blind woman."

trogdor

11:18 AM

@Anaphory I can't remember the specific details, but it was a thing about veterans coming back, "cap in hand" asking for money, enough of whom I assumed were also injured

I also thought it was a less,... negative term

and I only heard this earlier this year

BESW

@trogdor That's a false folk etymology, but it's definitely a contributing factor to the real perception of the term.

trogdor

mk

BESW

And really, the answer to "Why is [term] offensive when its strict definition seems innocuous" is almost always going to be "Because of its historical and/or contemporary context in use."

trogdor

in other words, it's offensive because it has been used offensively too much

Anaphory

@BESW True dat, but just grabbing new words does not get us out of the euphemism loop if the underlying perception doesn't change, so it's useful to ask how a word acquired the negative connotations.

BESW

11:22 AM

Terminology always goes through cycles as meaning shifts due to use; see also swearing.

So long as disability is treated as insulting, whatever term is used to describe disability will become insulting. The euphemism treadmill only turns off when our attitude toward the subject changes.

And while to some extent humanizing our vocabulary can help make that attitude shift, it's obvious from history that vocabulary alone won't do it.

Not, of course, to say that we shouldn't be curious about the history of the process or that we can't learn from it.

(For example, it's especially not-helpful to have people outside a group decide what labels should be used for the group.)

trogdor

12:02 PM

Yeah but I don't see that happening very soon (Well the opposite, wtv)

People loooove to label things

In fact I'm not technically always sure that will ever stop

NautArch

1:29 PM

the moose is loose!

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch someone call animal control!

But seriously if I was a person like that that had a tagline and had people who actually called me that, that would be my catch phrase lol

Hows it going?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose a former fullback for the Cowboys was known as Moose and Chris Berman (an ESPN commentator) said during an uncommon touchdown run from him "The moose is loose, the moose is loose...it's a moosedown!"

But pretty good! Summer is ending, but fall is coming :) Closing in on the end of the 5 year IRL campaign with the DM I don't like, and in a week my campaign starts back up again on Roll20 after a short end of summer hiatus (after a whopping 2 session start)

Adam

@NautArch I'm glad that's finally ending. I remember you being quite frustrated with that DM.

NautArch

@Adam Yeah, I'm looking forward to the new DM and campaign. It's been a wild ride and I'll miss my character, but I'm done with that guy. Unfortunately, all of the table rules remain (critical fumbles, etc.)

I"m having a lot more fun at the table, though now that I've resigned myself to just going with the flow.

I have decided that this is also my last year playing fantasy football (and being the commissioner of two separate leagues), so that'll free up more time for RPGs :P

Rubiksmoose

1:48 PM

Yay to the outsing of the DM. Boo to the keeping of silly rules. And yay for playing more RPGs!

Sanity check: I'm not crazy/wrong with what I wrote in the comment under this answer am I? rpg.stackexchange.com/a/130373/28591

cc @NautArch

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Ravery never says "melee spell attack action"

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch "A Melee Spell Attack action is not covered by Fast Hands"

NautArch

whoops, was reading post-edit :P

But I think their intent is you are using your action to make a Melee Spell Attack.

I'm a bit more concerned about the sic in their quote and wanting to make sure that quote is correct and sourced.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Well that is exactly my point, those two are vitally different statements.

@NautArch fwiw I added the note, so I think it is ok now though I would rather roll20 not be used, it is their perogitive to do so.

Adam

@NautArch It's sourced back to the roll20 compendium, and indeed the compendium lists it as "Attack" instead of "attack." I see no issues there.

Rubiksmoose

2:03 PM

@Adam However, that is incorrect. The correct phrasing in official sources is "attack". This is something that roll20 gets incorrect every time the word Attack is used.

Adam

Which is what the sic and your edit noted

Rubiksmoose

@Adam ah yeah exactly. I think it is fine citation-wise. We are in agreement.

Adam

Indeed. That is my point

Rubiksmoose

yup yup I see what yo uare saying now. I thought you were saying that the Attack was correct. My bad.

NautArch

@Adam argh. that roll20 compendium frustrates me.

Adam

2:06 PM

@NautArch Me too. It's trying to be helpful by providing links through the text, but it ends up making quotes awkward sometimes. You could probably edit it to point to d&d beyond instead and eliminate the problem without changing the content at all.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch but regardless, there is no such thing as a Melee Spell Attack action.

@Adam The author does not want us to do that. We have had this issue before.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose right. Action to make a melee spell attack does not equal melee spell attack action

Rubiksmoose

9

Q: How to handle incorrect quotations from 3rd party sources

In this answer, the quote provided from Roll20 incorrectly capitalizes the "a" in attack. In this situation, should we: Fix the quote so it's correct but leave the citation link Fix the quote so it's correct and link or cite a source that is correct Leave it alone and let downvotes sort out t...

discussion

@Adam Though, in the end we ended up changing it anyways (a ♦ ended up doing it)

Adam

@Rubiksmoose The author doesn't want us to do it as in we have a history with them? Or site policy says don't? In the first case, then we just have to let it be. In the second case, nothing prevents us from suggesting the change in a comment.

Ah, just saw their deleted answer.

Rubiksmoose

@Adam The former.

It was actually explicitly discussed in the chat room under the answer linked in that meta.

Adam

2:11 PM

Then I guess the only thing to do is let it be and grumble about how Roll20 should pick up their game.

Rubiksmoose

@Adam Unfortunately. gurmble grumble grumble.

David Coffron

@Adam roll20 just capitalizes for emphasis on links. They aren't trying to be misleading. I don't see any real problem since "capital A" Attack is (almost?) always followed by "action" in the books. We can just as easily use that is an indicator rather than the capital letter.

Adam

@DavidCoffron Oh, I agree that it's easy to navigate and in almost all circumstances it's entirely usable and doesn't cause any issue. It's just our specific case happens to conflict with their standard. And so from our point of view, they could go one step further.

Noticing where we need to signal out the terminology is easy to do, but it would be so much nicer if we could just copy paste the quote and be sure that we didn't have to worry about footnotes and "sic"s.

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron However, because it is a meaningful difference and because we have made a big deal out of it, the caps do make things confusing. It has caused issues in the past (as in confusing answers and how to interpret them and confusing people whose asked the questions)

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose true enough. It is easier to just say "Attack" as a short hand then having to spell out action eerytime

Rubiksmoose

2:19 PM

@DavidCoffron And, when I see "Attack" in a r20 source I have to check it in the source material every time just to be sure this wording is not an exception or whatever. I've been tricked by it before actually.

(when I used to use it before DnDBeyond)

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose I had to do the same thing for spells and monsters on roll20 (they are formatted wierd with missing info sometimes)

Adam

Also, I don't believe that the word "attack" is always followed by "action." I'd think that the most common be would be spells and effects saying "make a [melee/ranged] [weapon/spell] attack..." and using the word action in there would be incorrect.

Rubiksmoose

@Adam I think david meant that when the Attack Action is referred to it is usually referred to as such.

And not just as "Attack"

David Coffron

@Adam yeah specifically when it's "capital A" Attack

There plenty of stand alone lowercase a attacks

Adam

Ah. Well in that case you would be correct. I was confused because we were talking about how roll20 used the capital A in the wrong place.

Rubiksmoose

2:23 PM

I mean I think we are all saying basically the same thing in different wordings here lol

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose which goes to the heart of how confusing it is thanks to roll20

Rubiksmoose

2:42 PM

@DavidCoffron Luckily that user is the only one I ever see referencing r20 anymore.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose I mean new users still copy paste the text (without even citing a source) from time to time

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron That is true. The weird caps are always a giveaway lol

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose although roll20 is nowhere near as annoying to me as dandwiki

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron yeah danadwiki has its own corner of hell reserved just for it in my mind lol

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose interestingly, that homebrew question storm of a few weeks ago seems to have stopped

I

Rubiksmoose

2:48 PM

@DavidCoffron you're totally right! Weird how things come in those kinds of waves sometimes isn't it? But thank goodness. We can deal with them here and there, but if we had to deal with huge amounts of homebrew questions consistently I think this stack would need to adjust or go crazy lol

Sir Cinnamon

I think I'm going to run a dungeon world one shot sometime soon. I'm a little nervous, I've never GMd anything but DND. Anyone have tips for PbtA games?

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose I was wondering in the moment for solutions and I was thinking maybe a dedicated chat for it would be useful (with a modstarred link to a series of bookmarks that list all of the homebrews evaluated), but I'm glad something like that wasn't necessary

Rubiksmoose

@SirCinnamon It might sound silly but 1) read the book thoruoughly and follow the advice. Unlike the 5e DMG, the DW DM section is really useful and makes running the game really nice if you follow the advice.

Sir Cinnamon

@Rubiksmoose Right. My understanding is the game is intentionally a lot more improv for the GM so a strong understanding is key

I'm not sure how much story to prepare in advance and how much to make up based off of the character creation process

Rubiksmoose

@SirCinnamon Yeah that is tricky. I like preparing as much as possible and just being mentally prepared to deviate significantly if needed. I feel more nimble and comfortable if I have stuff prepared to at least riff off of. This partially depends on your GM style though.

Sir Cinnamon

3:00 PM

@Rubiksmoose Maybe i'll prep a solid skeleton then, and swap out parts when it feels right

Rubiksmoose

I've only played/GMed one PbtA game and it does a great job of encouraging the story to emerge and develop and giving the DM the tools to respond in ways that continue to build the story in natural and fun ways.

Sir Cinnamon

I like the fact that its really fiction heavy, i think it might help my players practice some of their roleplaying which might make them enjoy DnD a bit more too!

I found a typo in the official dungeon world playbooks pdf

well not a typo.... a copy paste mistake i guess

Rubiksmoose

@SirCinnamon That is actually one of the lines of thought I put forward when proposing our game as well. And I think it is/will happen!

Rubiksmoose

3:14 PM

@SirCinnamon I guess another obvious tip is to make sure you emphasize the differences between this and D&D to the players. My players (and I!) have felt an amazing sense of freedom with PbtA compared with 5e and I honestly love it so much. But some players do have a hard time adapting if they are locked into that D&D mentality.

Helwar

what does PbtA stand for?

Sir Cinnamon

@Rubiksmoose Yes, I've been sort of mulling over how to describe the game. I basically want to tell them to really lean on familiar archetypes and to take more initiative in just making things up - they can describe the world too (somewhat)

@Helwar Powered by the Apocalypse

Rubiksmoose

In Masks for example, you don't have actions. Only moves. And moves trigger off of things that happen in the narrative, but the players need to know that they should never be "doing" a move, they should be doing the thing in fiction and you, the GM, will tell them to use that move to resolve how their action plays out.

Sir Cinnamon

@Rubiksmoose Yes, that was in the book. Players never say when they are making a move, they say what they are doing and the GM tells them if that's a move

I think thats important to stay away from a dnd mindset too

you arent choosing a move from the list of moves, youre doing what you want and applying a move to that

Rubiksmoose

@SirCinnamon I'm not sure if it is going to be easier or harder for you to get player out of D&D mindset. With me, at least everything in the world was different from D&D (a superhero world set in a modern/future fictional world). But DW plays in a similar world to D&D.

Sir Cinnamon

3:18 PM

@Helwar I dont know the full extent of what is part of that and what is part of the sub games but the core is a roll 2d6+modifier and <=6 is a fail, 7-9 is some kind of mixed success and 10+ is success

Rubiksmoose

@Helwar Oh and just to clear it up further, it just means a game that is based off the Apocalypse engine which is an open system based off of the game Apocalypse World. Masks is one such game. Dungeon World, the one that Cinnamon is going to run, is another.

Sir Cinnamon

@Rubiksmoose That's a good point but this group is a real fantasy focused one. I'll try and make sure they arent trying to import too much knowledge or anything and try and keep them in character

Rubiksmoose

@SirCinnamon Like I said, the books are really good.

David Coffron

3:33 PM

Argh. I wanted to play a pathfinder game (or some 1 shots) to get an idea of how it works before the new version, but everyone is playing the playtest. Lol

Mike Q

@BESW That seems like they're conflating different things. One is the idea that disabled people have just as much right as abled people to be included in the world they live in. The other is a fictional future world depicting a semi-reasonable outcome of having advanced medical technology.

Like, it's mixing up the condition (having a disability) with the group (people with disabilities)

David Coffron

@MikeQ even if some disabled people don't choose to have their disability remedied, sufficiently advanced medical technology will likely cut out many disabilities prior to "decision-making" age

Mike Q

@DavidCoffron Right, and depicting such a world is implying something against the disability, but not against disabled people.

Sir Cinnamon

@DavidCoffron This was my first thought. While many people with disabilities don't want to be "fixed" because they feel like it's a part of them, If technology is advanced enough that people are not born with disabilities like this the amount of people who would willingly opt into a disability is infinitesimal

David Coffron

@MikeQ not to mention disabilities by definition are rehabilitating and research should be done to try to make people who are afflicted more comfortable in any way possible (one of which includes removing a disability when desited)

@SirCinnamon I would be interested to see if governments would start to tax those with disabilities in such a world since it is a choice then and potentially cause the person to be unfit for certain civic duties. I wouldn't personally vote for something like that in such a world but I could see an argument for it.

(Of course I'm also assuming universal access to disability remedies. I could also see a situation where the poor can't afford it and then such a tax would be horrible imo)

Mike Q

3:50 PM

@DavidCoffron I think that's the more modernly used trope in scifi that focuses on class differences

Sir Cinnamon

@DavidCoffron Haha I guess my mind went straight to a utopia where this wouldn't matter but I suppose this is something that would be considered.

I was picturing The Culture where really you can do whatever you want so you could choose to be blind but and then experience sight by rigging a camera to your brain or something

Actually, i recall a character replacing his eyes with extra ears, I suppose that might count

Mike Q

@SirCinnamon Or maybe they're some kinda space-age ascetic subculture

Rubiksmoose

@SirCinnamon Would....that actually help? lol

Mike Q

@Rubiksmoose They'd be immune to gaze attacks and visual illusions

Sir Cinnamon

@Rubiksmoose I also recall he was wearing special sunglasses out of modesty. I think he was living in a place where there is a constant deafeningly loud noise and the indigenous populations are all naturally deaf

Rubiksmoose

3:55 PM

@MikeQ I mean sure, but why ears? I'm pretty sure ears don't follow the "more is better" trend lol

Sir Cinnamon

That guy was a real weirdo, even as far as Culture standards go

Rubiksmoose

@SirCinnamon I see I see.

Well, so to speak. XD

Sir Cinnamon

>! do spoiler tags work in here

Mike Q

Spoiler alert: No

Sir Cinnamon

Well then I will say no more

But I would recommend the Hydrogen Sonata, not the best of the culture novels but a good introduction I think

David Coffron

3:58 PM

Disconnect from your internet while a message is uploading. Screen shot the chat after the message fails. Then upload the screenshot to imgur. Then post the link with a spoiler warning. Or don't that's a lot of work

NautArch

@BESW Finished the first Murderbot book. Good stuff! Waiting to get the 2nd :)

David Coffron

Yuuki

There's always "copy '(spoiler)' to your clipboard, post your spoiler, immediately edit and paste".

Rubiksmoose

hmmmm

GreySage

use onetimesecret.com?

Rubiksmoose

4:05 PM

Making a fake link has been the one workaround people have found for spoilers: spoiler - hover over to see the text

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose I just watched New hope for the first time. C'mon man! Kappa

Rubiksmoose

XD

Sir Cinnamon

4:27 PM

the main character of that book also has 4 arms, exclusively to play a musical instrument that requires 4 arms

Daniel Zastoupil

4:45 PM

Found this little tidbit on Giant in the Playground. Looks like Amazon leaked our next official 5e Book: Ravnica.

amazon.com/dp/0786966599/…

Note the release date, November 20th

David Coffron

@DanielZastoupil pretty sure that was tweeted about.

Daniel Zastoupil

Was it? Well, damn. Now I feel dumb.

Friggin' kids and their twittering.

David Coffron

@DanielZastoupil it's also on the official site

Daniel Zastoupil

Huh. I coulda sworn that wasn't on there that long ago.

Well, I'm gonna go before I dig myself into a bigger hole.

Xirema

You are correct. Long ago it wasn't listed on the official site.

Maximillian

4:47 PM

So long as they don't introduce a D&D caster class that uses MTG cards.

Xirema

If you define "long ago" as like a month or two.

GreySage

@DanielZastoupil On the one hand, I don't really like D&D just adapting whatever MTG sets come out, it feels like we're getting second hand garbage. On the other, Ravnica is AWESOME as a setting, so I'm looking forward to it.

Rubiksmoose

Has anybody ever noticed that this site uses lowercase numbers?

Maximillian

If this means a monster manual with Phyrexians in it, you could get some interesting stuff.

Sir Cinnamon

@Rubiksmoose Thats interesting I never knew about this

David Coffron

4:50 PM

@DanielZastoupil was announced in July xD

GreySage

@Rubiksmoose Yes, whats more interesting is that it's only RPG.SE, other SE sites don't

nitsua60

@GreySage I had no knowledge of the M:tG background when playtesting the Ravnica book and really liked it as a "standalone." (I mean, there were a few things I criticized, but many more I was positive on.)

Rubiksmoose

@nitsua60 Same. I have literally 0 MtG exposure, but I liked it.

nitsua60

I'm strong on M:tG through Ice Age. After that, not so much....

Sir Cinnamon

@GreySage Looks like RPG.SE uses Georgia while other SEs are using sans-serif fonts

nitsua60

4:52 PM

It was interesting to think about the five colors' "personalities" overlaid onto a D&D setting.

GreySage

@SirCinnamon We use serifs, like all the cool kids

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage I wonder if this will change after our migration to the new site format?

Sir Cinnamon

Serifs and Seraphs

David Coffron

@nitsua60 we saw that in the Plane Shift articles. I hope they do it a bit better in the book

Rubiksmoose

I know some theming will change and some will stay, but I'm not sure if it has eve been made clear what thigns fall into which categories.

GreySage

4:53 PM

@SirCinnamon If you can make that into a 200 word RPG, I'd play it

David Coffron

@GreySage what would be the premise? Role-playing as text artists trying to reach angelic level inspiration?

nitsua60

@DavidCoffron I never looked at them past the first, when I realized that my decades of separation from M:tG made PS pretty useless/uninteresting for me. (If I'm going to use a setting other than "vanilla," it's one I make with my players. Or Krynn, because @trogdor loves it so much.)

Sir Cinnamon

@DavidCoffron roll 2d12, each corresponds to a bible verse. the first word of the verse determines the outcome of your action

as a test i put in 12:11 and what came up is "Hebrews 12:11" and the first word is "No"

I guess that's a failure

nitsua60

@SirCinnamon Modified by the number of serifs in that word.

David Coffron

@SirCinnamon that's actually an interesting idea. Using a popular book as a lookup table

GreySage

4:58 PM

@DavidCoffron Would the lack of consistency across biblical versions be a feature, or a bug?

Sir Cinnamon

@DavidCoffron vowels are a success (sometimes y)

David Coffron

@GreySage feature. Which bible translation you use keeps the game interesting.

When words show up that lack modern equivalents (and are therefore hard to decipher) in your KJV session, you can get some fun improv sessions

When espied shows up... uhh... something happens?

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