TeX, LaTeX and Friends

12:03 AM

@PauloCereda could you refer me to this section in the manual to know how to do it?

@PauloCereda Addiianlly

@PauloCereda sorry for the typo :). Additionally, how to compile the parent file from its child? I tried pdflatex: { files: [..\parent.tex]} , but I think it's wrong

egreg

8:35 AM

@AlanMunn There are not so many well preserved pre-1000 churches in Europe and Ravenna probably has the largest share.

L.K.

8:52 AM

@DavidCarlisle Thanks I could resolve it :)

David Carlisle

12:30 PM

@egreg pre-1000? I thought history started in 1066?

2

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Not been to my village, then!

barbara beeton

12:50 PM

2

^^^^ another palindrome. (okay, there's still that comma not in the middle ...)

@marmot -- that's a charming crystal ball, but it doesn't match mine. mine is rutilated quartz, really. beautiful to look at, but not very useful trying to predict anything.

egreg

1:06 PM

@DavidCarlisle And when the Channel is foggy, the continent is cut off.

Joseph Wright

1:45 PM

@PauloCereda QUACK!

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright ooh a duck

@Diaa Chapter 2, either section 2.1 or 2.2 :)

@Diaa I don't see anything in the rule that could make that fail, but I need more info. :)

People in the front row: Joseph, Will, Frank

Second row: Nelson, Ulrike

Third row: Ross, Doris, Volker, Tom, myself and Chris

People I know :)

yo'

2:17 PM

Please, could you reply all of you who watch the live stream? Just out of curiosity :)

David Carlisle

@yo' me

yo'

@DavidCarlisle thanks, I hope you enjoy!

David Carlisle

@yo' people could put spaces between words so letters don't bump in to each other :-)

yo'

@DavidCarlisle well, my language doesn't write whole sentences without spaces :)

David Carlisle

@yo' just without vowels

yo'

2:20 PM

@DavidCarlisle :)

Phelype Oleinik

@yo' me too :)

Paulo Cereda

Oh no

barbara beeton

2:38 PM

@yo' -- intermittently. (have conflicting assignment at work.)

yo'

@barbarabeeton cool! Pity you can't be here and pity you can't follow it 100%

David Carlisle

@JosephWright win10 since April :-)

barbara beeton

@yo' -- i've seen some of this stuff before, but hearing it described gives it a whole new dimension. please ask mico if he realized there was a typo on his first slide.

TeXnician

2:53 PM

@barbarabeeton and he had a misspelled "case" somewhere in the talk…

yo'

@barbarabeeton I will :)

barbara beeton

@yo' -- thanks. (and tell paulo cereda thanks too.)

Joseph Wright

@barbarabeeton Will do

yo'

@barbarabeeton sure!

David Carlisle

3:21 PM

@PauloCereda you only answered half the answers correctly

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Enjoying your moment in the sun?

David Carlisle

you are bonkers

3

@PauloCereda ^^

Avantgarde

3:45 PM

Hello. I have a question: Is there a way to automatically label equations without the user putting the labels by hand? Something like, each equation being labelled by its own equation number (e.g. eq1, eq2, etc.)?

Phelype Oleinik

@Avantgarde That would miss the point of labelling... What if you inserted an equation between eq1 and eq2? Then eq2 would become eq3, and the \refs to the former eq2 would now be incorrect.

Avantgarde

Heh, yeah, I realized that problem after asking my question.

I have too many equations. I can't label them with words. I guess I just have to do it the painstakingly laborious way.

Phelype Oleinik

@Avantgarde What you asked can be done, but it really shouldn't.

@Avantgarde You say you have too many equations. Do you use \references to all of them?

Avantgarde

@PhelypeOleinik I just use \label for each equation that is being referred somewhere else.

\label and \eqref

For now, the label I use for each equation is its number.

Of course, the number might change if I add/subtract equations in the middle, but it seems to be the best option I have right now.

Phelype Oleinik

@Avantgarde You don't need to \label equations if you are not going to reference them...

Avantgarde

3:54 PM

I'm not labeling every equation. Like I said, I use it for those equations that are being called later.

That would be a nightmare lol

Labeling is still fine. One day, I have to learn how to draw diagrams and stuff on LaTeX. I have no idea how to do that.

Diagrams that you get in physics, I mean. Feynman diagrams, for instance.

Thanks for your help.

Phelype Oleinik

@Avantgarde I didn't do much, but... You're welcome :)

barbara beeton

4:11 PM

@PauloCereda, @yo' -- i have a question for the accessibility discussion; please pass it on. for display math to become completely accessible, some mechanism has to be provided to express it verbally in addition to, and preferably other than, simply describing the position of symbols on a printed page (or other surface). does anything plausible exist yet? presentation mathml is inadequate, and it's been suggested to me (by someone there in rio) that content mathml is impossible.

(i may not be able to watch the workshop, so if you can send the answer in mail, that would be appreciated.)

David Carlisle

4:31 PM

@Avantgarde don't use \label with numbers!

Faheem Mitha

Can someone remind of a newer, spiffier alternative to \newcommandthat was mentioned to me some time ago? Searching brings up nothing I recognize.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha \NewDocumentCommand?

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright Yes, probably that one. Thank you.

And the documentation, I seem to recall, is in some LaTeX 3 document.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle <3

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha xparse

Paulo Cereda

4:38 PM

@DavidCarlisle we miss you, pal

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright Thank you.

David Carlisle

@JosephWright I was going to suggest \def

Faheem Mitha

CTAN seems to think erw-l3 is the correct answer.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha never heard of that. start with xparse:-)

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle I will. But CTAN should get a better search engine.

David Carlisle

4:41 PM

@FaheemMitha what were you searching for? (I would be surprised if searching for \newcommand gave anything useful)

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle I did a search for NewDocumentCommand.

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton you watching now?

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- yup. switched it in when i heard boris' voice.

Avantgarde

4:57 PM

@DavidCarlisle What do you mean? I use it like \label{eq1}, ... Then, \eqref{eq1} when referring. Is that no good?

David Carlisle

@Avantgarde no it misses the main design aim of \label it works but it is really confusing after you have edited the file and that equation is equation (6) but you have to refer to it as \ref{eq1} the whole point of \label/\ref is to use internal identifiers that are not tied to the numbering so that you can refer to automatically numbered things.

Avantgarde

@DavidCarlisle Okay, so you would suggest that I use words instead of numbers to label equations?

David Carlisle

@Avantgarde yes or even \label{abc} just an arbitrary string is better than something that looks like it might be related to anything printed in the document

Avantgarde

@DavidCarlisle Hm, I see the point. I will implement that in my current work and see how that goes. Thanks for your help.

Faheem Mitha

5:57 PM

I must be using the wrong syntax. I thought these two versions were equivalent, but one is giving an error, the other isn't.

\NewDocumentCommand{\Filename}{}{upstox_form.pdf}
\newcommand{\Filename}{upstox_form.pdf}

The \newcommand version is fine. But what's wrong with my syntax for the \NewDocumentCommand one?

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Where are you using it? Document commands are not the same as 'variables'

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright I don't understand. I thought this was just a way to define a macro.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha If you just want a shortcut to use e.g. as a name, then you need \newcommand

@FaheemMitha It's to do with expansion

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright Ok. But what's wrong with my \NewDocumentCommand?

@JosephWright Ugh. That again?

yo'

@FaheemMitha well, it's protected (saying "designed not to expand" is a very very huge huge simplification)

Faheem Mitha

6:01 PM

@yo' Oh. So it is designed not to work for a simple case like this?

yo'

@FaheemMitha basically, yes, that's the case.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha No, but it depends how you are using your data: for example, if it's a shortcut to use as a filename, it can't be protected from expansion

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright Oh. So could you easily modify it so it would work?

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha You can use \NewExpandableDocumentCommand, but really we are still trying to get a good description for users about where the line between a 'shortcut' and a 'command' is

yo'

@FaheemMitha yes, use \newcommand, or switch to pure expl3 where this is distinguished by principle (expl3 knows "variables" and "functions")

@barbarabeeton I believe this your question has just been answered: basically providing the LaTeX code is currently the way to go.

Faheem Mitha

6:05 PM

@JosephWright That isn't listed in xparse. There is \DeclareExpandableDocumentCommand.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Which release do you have?

@FaheemMitha On page one for the 2018-05-12 release

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright A probably outdated one. At the top of the document it says Released 2016/11/21

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle you are mean

David Carlisle

Jun 29 '17 at 16:15, by Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle you are not mean :)

Faheem Mitha

@yo' Oh, and what would a pure expl3 version look like?

barbara beeton

6:08 PM

@yo' -- i'm looking at latex code right now. it's unintelligible. the author has to be aware of the need, and care. and making sense of what's actually there requires teal knowledge of the content. either goes back to the author, or requires very scarce and probably expensive human resources.

yo'

\tl_new:N \l_faheemmitha_filename_tl
\tl_set:Nn \l_faheemmitha_filename_tl { upstox_form.pdf }

@FaheemMitha ^^

And if you needed a public wrapper, then:

\NewDocumentCommand \setfilename { m } {
    \tl_set:Nn \l_faheemmitha_filename_tl { #1 }
}

@barbarabeeton I'll try to mention that somehow

Faheem Mitha

I found this seemingly helpful post - texdev.net/2010/05/23/from-newcommand-to-newdocumentcommand

But it doesn't talk about this expandability thing at all.

barbara beeton

@yo' -- oops ... "teal" should be "real".

Faheem Mitha

@yo' Thanks. That looks sort of familiar, but still exotic.

I see there is some discussion here:

19

A: Always use \NewDocumentCommand instead of \newcommand?

To expand Joseph's answer about commands and values: Macros defined with \NewDocumentCommand are robust, they don't get expanded when e.g. moved to the .toc. This is a good thing for commands like \cite which should do something in the .toc but in general is not wanted for values which can change...

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha start with textdoc xparse rather than a blog describing an 8 year old version

Joseph Wright

6:14 PM

@FaheemMitha Deliberately: almost always, a document command should not be expandable

barbara beeton

@yo' -- tell ross (offline) that i'll be happy to send some samples of typical math at the level we deal with every day, and would like to know what the currently available/recommended descriptions would be. (i'm sure you could do the same.)

Faheem Mitha

I don't understand why Ulrike's example works, though. Presumably that usage doesn't require expandability. In \section, I mean.

yo'

@barbarabeeton I will. I hope I made a reasonable spokesman :-)

barbara beeton

@yo -- i' listening to the discussion now, and laughing. "can't teach authors anything!" very true.

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Well, that blog contains user friendly examples. :-)

barbara beeton

6:18 PM

@yo' -- yes, you did. thanks. i think the point was made.

Paulo Cereda

6:44 PM

@DavidCarlisle oh

Paulo Cereda

7:07 PM

@egreg Ciao!

egreg

@PauloCereda How's it going?

Paulo Cereda

@egreg It's been very nice so far!

@egreg: of course, we wish you were here with us. <3

@egreg: David got a lot of mentions today. He is very happy.

David Carlisle

7:22 PM

@PauloCereda I think Ross got through his whole talk without making dubious comments about me, more than the previous three speakers managed

2

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle we wub you

manooooh

@PauloCereda congrats for the talk!! The mentions were so opportunity! Have good day and see you in the next talk

Paulo Cereda

@manooooh You too, amigo! Buenas noches!

manooooh

And... your "arara" I love it <3

Paulo Cereda

Gracias. :)

David Carlisle

7:25 PM

@PauloCereda I really do use arara just as much as you said I do!

manooooh

I did not see @CarLaTeX in the talk, is that right?

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle So I didn't make dubious comments, must be the English bloke.

Faheem Mitha

Is there a preferred image format for embedding an image using TikZ? png, jpg, PDF?

Paulo Cereda

@FaheemMitha up to you

manooooh

This is me...

Faheem Mitha

7:33 PM

@PauloCereda Presumably there are advantages/disadvantages.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha tikz can't embed images it just uses latex's normal mechanisms, so it depends, which engine you are using, pdflatex can include pdf, latex can not, for example

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle I'm using pdflatex. Do people still use plain latex?

Any reason to prefer one of pdf, jpg, png over the others?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha some people do, they also use xelatex or lualatex or platex

Faheem Mitha

Actually, I have the impression that PDF often embeds JPGs, anyway.

Paulo Cereda

@FaheemMitha Still, up to you.

Faheem Mitha

7:38 PM

@PauloCereda Yes, you said that already.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha if you include a jpg into pdf via pdflatex then it is essentially just copied in. but which to use depends what it is. photographs ok in jpg graphs better in pdf as a scalable format, other bitmap scans better as png

Paulo Cereda

yes, and advantages and disadvantages apply to virtually everything.

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle The use case in question is a scan of my signature.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha basically you want the best format for the image then pdflatex can include any of those three.

@FaheemMitha png then

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle with a good resolution.

Faheem Mitha

7:39 PM

@DavidCarlisle Oh, ok. Not pdf or jpg then.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha well your scanner will make a bitmap so if you use png you have (or could have) a lossless copy of all the information you have and can include as much of that information as possible. If you convert to jpg that is a lossy compression, not usually noticable for photos but can make text blury, and pdf well it depends how you make the pdf from the bitmap, it could be anything internally.

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Ok, I'll try using png.

Thank you for the explanation.

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda accessibility workshop in how long?

CarLaTeX

@manooooh Too far away for me :)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle We are a bit behind the schedule. Let me poke Paulo Ney.

Joseph Wright

7:44 PM

@DavidCarlisle I'd say about half- to three-quarters of an hour

David Carlisle

@JosephWright OK, thanks.

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright That's another way of putting it nicely. :)

yo'

8:07 PM

Notes from the AGM in the TUG2018 chatroom

barbara beeton

@yo' -- to be thrown into the "open" tugboat discussion. editor's view: if a particular article has important immediate relevance, it can be requested that it be opened up individually. editor will confer with other interested tug people, and i expect we'll be understanding. (unless other reliable sources of income are found, tugboat is all tug has got.)

yo'

@barbarabeeton however, is it TB sales or TUG membership fees?

barbara beeton

@yo' -- well, it's tug membership fees, but tugboat is really the most "used" benefit. as you can see, not that many people have taken advantage of the reduced fee to attend the annual meeting.

@yo -- i have to leave in ten minutes, and won't be available again until midnight (one hour later here than there). i'll try to catch up then, but i'm also out of reach most of tomorrow morning into the afternoon. really bad scheduling here, i'm afraid.

yo'

8:41 PM

@barbarabeeton I hope you'll find it here when you return. It's believed here that people are not members so that they benefit from getting their articles 1 year earlier. They are members to support TUG in general, and TB is one of the good things that make them support TUG.

The accessibility workshop starts in about 5 minutes

So, I'm the spokesman of the TeX.SE chat room in the workshop. I'll try to keep you updated with the topics and say your comments and ideas aloud here in Rio.

There's a group of people in Torino that are connected via Skype; they concentrate on accesibility in maths. There's about a dozen people physically in Rio.

The discussion is moderated by Chris Rowley.

Physically in the room, there's several people from the LaTeX team, there's Ross Moore, Ulrike Fisher (they have quite some experience on the topic), and couple more blokes (including @PauloCereda and myself :) )

Paulo Cereda

8:58 PM

@yo' we are the chocolate experts. :)

yo'

Ulrike Fisher on air. Discusses her package tagpdf. Says "we need actual code" to see what we run into. Discussed with KOMA devs and there's a will to incorporate tagpdf into KOMA.

UF It's not manageable to patch everything, we need to provide basic code that others can pick up and use.

Hello @Alan!

Paulo Cereda

Olá @AlanMunn!

Rio 40 graus, cidade maravilha, purgatório da beleza e do caos. :)

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda Hi! It's funny that all the usual people who post in 'our' early morning are now delayed, and I'm in their spot. :)

yo'

Joseph Wright What does it work with? UF With pdftex, but currently you have to manually patch pagebreaks. Needs change of OR (discussed with Frank Mittelbach). With luatex it's much easier and works much more fluently. Ctex is not done, but should not be difficult.

Alan Munn

@yo' Hi. Como vaí o Brasil?

yo'

9:03 PM

@AlanMunn Bem, bem.

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn yep. :)

yo'

Ross Moore mentions that there are troubles with drivers other than pdftex with interword spaces. JW Pdftex solution should be portable to xetex.

Boris Veytsman Should it be possible to use LuaTeX's full control over everything to handle the spaces problem? RM Yes, and Hans must have done something like that.

(Pause in the discussion.)

FM Asks: What kind of support in pdftex from the OR you need to make your work possible, considering galleys, footnotes, etc.? WHat kind of just tagging-related problems are solvable only using horrible hacks? RM The hacks are not horrible, rather elegant.

2

(We stay in the tagging topic.)

RM The LaTeX source is itself very descriptive and provides most of the information; the environment has to be tagged, but you need every env to start with \begin. FM I'm not after solutions, I'm after problems. UF Many things don't end explicitly, e.g. items, sections, etc.

Paulo Cereda

@yo' I want to buy your finest hacks!

yo'

RM \par hidden somewhere deep in the code is ending staff, that's a lot about h/vmode.

Sebastiano

Good evening Paulo, yo', Alan

I have read this question

0

Q: Labelling the position of entry in the vector

I probably explain my question by illustrating an example. For example, Let $e_i=(0,\ldots,0,1,0,\ldots,0)$ be the standard basis vector for n-dimensional Euclidean space $\mathbb{R}^n$. By drawing a little line and writing $i^{th}$-entry, I want to give the position of the entry in that vector.