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Ben
6:00 AM
And unfortunately, right now, that's the best defense we have against drink-driving. That is; prevention
 
We have those here too
Though I see less of them now
Less reliance on cable TV
 
Ben
But, right now I don't really see there's much else that can be done about it, unfortunately.
 
That's fair, I just wish more people thought of the issue at all
 
Ben
Yeah - that's what I'm saying. The problem is up to the people to fix. Which in itself is a flawed solution.
 
6:21 AM
That isn't quite what I meant but I have no solution thought up
 
6:32 AM
What I mean is, maybe society can be doing more to make it more likely for people to make fewer bad choices
Yes, you are the first person who can stop you
That's entirely fair
But what about kids who see a lot of beer commercials and the sheer number of them looks like tacit endorsement of a culture of consummation that is unhealthy in it's excess?
Do we limit the number of adds that can play? By how much?
Do we levy worse penalties to the clerk behind the counter who didn't check ID? Or the adult who bought it so it wouldn't be an issue?
How do we enforce that?
We can do things, I just don't know what things will work out
It's not a problem with an easy solution but I feel like that makes people feel like that makes it not worth fixing
 
6:52 AM
It's definitely a culture-level problem, in which reckless behavior is framed as brave and acting out of concern for others is framed as weak.
In that context, the idea of drinking as inextricable from socialization becomes very dangerous indeed--as does the notion that self-control is not part of one's identity, and removing it reveals the "real" person (rather than stripping away a significant part of one's identity).
 
I don't want to frame this as stopping everyone from drinking, that's not my issue
just that I see a society where not only am I a minority in the context of not drinking, but bringing up the issues with it just,... doesn't usually track
and I don't just think Prohibition wouldn't work, I also think it set a frankly dangerous precident, at the time and even now
banning a substance a large portion of the population is either already addicted to or likes,.... just leads to them finding illegal sources of it
that doesn't mean I think everything should be legal,.... but alchohol is already established
hence how it turned out that prohibition caused a huge criminal power vacuum that got filled mighty hard
not to mention that I don't personally think alcohol is as dangerous as,... say certain illegal drugs
XD
but to say it isn't dangerous at all is,... disingenuous
 
7:42 AM
every year the city I live in hosts a "Celtic" music festival. This attracts a lot of younger people (who usually are just there to "hang out" and probably don't even like the traditional music in the first place).
Said "kids" are very often in the 14-16 years old range.
 
@trogdor I don't think alcohol is the primary source of that danger, though. Society and culture tells us that we aren't responsible for our actions while under the influence of alchohol, which is just not true.
 
Usually, they arrive at the place carrying bags full of beer bottles.
I should add that here alcoholic beverages shouldn't be legally sold to people under the 18 years mark.
often, police comes around to check the situation - they mostly just look at parked cars and such.
I think that it is superfluous to say that often those "kids" are drinking just in front of them and no one cares.
results: some cases of people having to be carried away by ambulance...
 
Smoothie: Frozen mixed berries, Greek yogurt, flax and bran meal, wheat germ, berry juice, frozen orange juice concentrate, honey.
 
@Miniman that is also fair
I understand it doesn't simply rob you of choice, but over consumption of it is still a nasty problem
and yeah, the only solutions involve changing the culture around it
I don't refute that
@BESW mmmmm
anyway, sorry about all that
I don't mean it to come off as shaming people for drinking at all
if anyone takes it that way, I can only apologize and say I didn't mean it in that specific way
 
8:53 AM
Back from the woods
 
@kviiri How was it?
 
@AVeryLargeBear Terrific! Although it got a bit hot at times
You know that feeling when it's a sunny day and you enter a hot car? We got that feeling when exiting the car.
 
@trogdor There's this one caregiver who's really great with my dad, and when my mom's gone he re-arranges his very busy schedule to stay later--which means skipping dinner on his way to the gym afterwards. So I've started making him smoothies.
 
cool
 
@kviiri Hahaha that does seem a bit hot.
 
8:58 AM
Then again, cottage life is quite care-free, so we just plunged into the lake after getting there. Refreshing
 
What's the rep threshold for chat again?
 
20.
 
@BESW Thanks! Any chance you can invite the OP from this question: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/127378/…
I want to point them at some threads, but don't want to clog the comments
 
No, I don't have power-invite privileges. That's reserved for the elected and the employed.
 
@BESW Ahh, I thought room owners could do that too :/
 
9:05 AM
I see the user has 192 rep on Stackoverflow, but I don't SO rep carries over to SE chat privileges.
 
9:32 AM
Huh, I thought it was just sum of all SE sites' rep.
 
SE rep seems to stack for the purposes of SE chat privileges.
But SO chat is a separate entity from SE chat.
We've run into a few folks before who had different privileges on SO vs SE chat networks because of a significant useage disparity.
[leaves "your answer has no support" comments on three different answers to a single question]
[braces self for response]
 
Huh. I always thought SO was just... primus inter pares respective to other SE sites and would otherwise function normally.
"normally" as in same as everyone else
 
Nope, apparently it's a separate network running the same infrastructure and maintained by the same overlords.
Their unity is an illusion, accomplished through clever tricks with mirrors.
 
you hear that mortals? your unity is an illusion
quake before the pony overlords!
with drums and cymbols
 
@AVeryLargeBear that requires a diamond moderator to do, but they are now at 20 rep on RPG.SE
and yeah, SO has its own separate chat server to the rest of the network and chat privs are earned separately on SO vs elsewhere
 
9:51 AM
@AVeryLargeBear The Honey Heist went well too, we had one newcomer who did an excellent job fitting in
Almost forgot the On-topic part :D
The GM had brought us hats even!
 
@doppelgreener Thanks for the clarification!
 
@kviiri brilliant!
 
@kviiri Good! I do love me a good honey heist ;)
6
 
@AVeryLargeBear Yeah, that checks out.
 
9:59 AM
[wave]
 
Hi
 
how are things here
 
Good, thanks
 
@trogdor mortals? So your headcanon does align with that Chant Of Immortality thing?
 
@Derpy I forgot that was a thing
I listened to it maybe one time?
 
10:15 AM
@trogdor the song is just one example of that "Immortal Twily" theory ^_^'
 
oh, maybe I never did then
I thought you meant this one where there is faux latin chanting about the GodQueen Celestia
XD
 
 
2 hours later…
12:37 PM
@nitsua60 Well, it seems that our inputs in back room and on the forum, getting no response, were received as "must be happening since 'not coming' isn't clearly communicated. As per that line in Cool Hand Luke: what we have heah is failure to communicate
 
@Pixie I generally use either Google Docs or Ema Personal Wiki
 
1:16 PM
Hmm. On reflection, technically none of these are answers at all. They don't just lack support for their claim, they lack a claim. Each is just a quote from a third-party source leaving the reader completely alone in determining why that quote is an answer to the question.
 
@BESW I didn't think the question was looking for D&D sources, but for sources that D&D may have pulled from?
"Did the idea of priests/clerics having a water-creation ability come from an earlier source, or is it an original D&D invention,"
 
@NautArch "May have" is pure speculation of the kind we can't give, and it's also not what they're asking.
Your quote is not asking for speculation. It is asking for information.
In the context of being asked on a D&D site, it's asking where D&D got the idea: independently or via third-party inspiration.
 
Right, but "come from an earlier source" in context with "or is it an original D&D invention" seems to be asking for sources prior to D&D.
 
We can answer where D&D got the idea, with support.
 
ah gotcha
so they're question is really "where did D&D get the idea for create water?" that then needs supporting sources from D&D to prove it.
 
1:28 PM
Since it's asked here, it's reasonable to assume they want a D&D-centric answer--and also reasonable to expect users with 5-digit reputation scores to connect the dots on their answer and not leave it as an exercise for the reader.
Answers that just quote another source are bad answers, almost universally.
Some legwork has to be done to connect the quote to the question.
 
Wow. That's horrible. though I'm more disappointed with forty or so upvoters than I am the author. (But there's enough to go around.)
 
That question actually seems to have all the same issues as a designer intent question altough it is not really one. EG, it seems that we would need some sort of designer commentary (or reference in the books) to support the claim that any particular source was the actually inspiration for create water. Am I reading this incorrectly?
 
2:32 PM
@Rubiksmoose It's not clear to me that designer commentary is the only thing that could make an answer good. It'd be great, but "preponderance of evidence" (which, of course, is more than just "hey, Moses did this thing too") works for me.
 
@nitsua60 Yeah that is fair. I think I have come to that view as well through everything that is happening. Still the answers are obviously not good, so I'm trying to find a way to make it clear. I edited the title which I think could help assuming OP agrees with it.
 
There is a vast amount of supporting evidence that Gygax dropped — for convenience I'll call them — elements of Christianity into D&D. Referencing these other elements first and then speculating that create water is probably also one of these elements may make this answer more palatable. That's not my downvote, but, as the answer stands, I agree with other Comments that the answer reads like an unsupported guess… even though I suspect it's an accurate unsupported guess! — Hey I Can Chan 2 mins ago
^^
 
Yeah I thought that was a great and very helpful comment. Also, I was completely unaware of that! So very interesting to me.
So here is the problem as I see it: OP seems to not care for the direct link to D&D and just cares about the existence of some/any precedence for divine water creation. This makes it easy to answer but probably a list question. This is indicated by their own comments and by the fact that they chose an answer that contained no evidence.
However, I think the question should explicitly be about what is the origin of this idea since that is hard but theoretically answerable. But OP is going to have to buy-in to that shift and voters are going to actually have to respect that as well.
 
2:48 PM
@Rubiksmoose that was my thought, but the assumption that @BESW makes/requires isn't wrong.
 
@NautArch Are you talking about this:
This is a good historical example of stories about divine power producing water, but I see no evidence to support a connection to D&D. As an answer to this question it's pure speculation. Please edit your answer to include support (like an interview with a D&D designer) for why this is the specific historical source of the D&D spell. — BESW 5 hours ago
 
@Rubiksmoose No, this
 
@NautArch Ah yeah.
 
Okay, threw my hat in the ring. I had to dash it off and work from some pdfs and memory since most of my books aren't where I am but I need to run now. Please feel free to clean up the prose if it reads badly. (I'm not sure all the footnotes even point the right direction!)
0
A: Are there examples of priests/clerics having water creation abilities that predate D&D?

nitsua60Moses. Chainmail lacks anything resembling a cleric, so we need only (!) look as far back as original D&D (brown-box) to find clerical magic entering D&D. There we find a strange blend of van Helsing, a Templar knight, and Christian miracle-worker1: they turn/destroy undead2, they may wear armor...

Oh, what the hell happened to the title?
That's not at all the question the body asks.
 
@NautArch But also it kind of is actually wrong. Specifically because OP has said they don't care specifically about D&D-centric logic in answers.
 
2:53 PM
@Rubiksmoose Agreed, but then it's off-topic? I dunno.
 
@nitsua60 That was my change, but I actually read it as being more accurate to the body. I just restated the last sentence in the body "Does the idea of priests/clerics having a water-creation ability exist in any earlier source, or is it an original D&D invention, like the Cleric class itself?"
 
Is that an accurate premise? DId D&D "invent" the cleric?
 
If that's enkryptor's actual question then (a) it's off-topic as a list-question if nothing else, and (b) I'm deleting my answer since it answers the question "where'd D&D clerics' create water come from?"
@NautArch Yes and no.
 
@nitsua60 I think it is pretty clear that OP seems to have originally wanted the question in its current form
@Rubiksmoose I asked if there was a precedence. I didn't explicitly ask for "official" comments from developers like "yeah, the idea for this spell was from The Old Testament" (I actually doubt there were ones) — enkryptor 50 mins ago
On the other hand, they also seems willing to modify the question such that it stays open.
 
But I gotta run. Check chapter 2.7.3 of Playing at the World for the naunced answer on D&D inventing the cleric. What it's pulling from elsewhere, where those elsewheres are, what distinguishes a D&D cleric from fantasy tropes before it, &c.
@Rubiksmoose which, in itself, is problematic
 
2:59 PM
@nitsua60 Agreed.
@NautArch The more I think about it, the more I think Moses is a pretty darned amazing example of a cleric.
 
@Rubiksmoose trickery? :P
 
@NautArch hah! I have a feeling it would be very difficult to pin a domain onto him lol
 
3:16 PM
@Rubiksmoose You don't need a domain. Moses is a warlock, not a cleric. (The God of Israel wasn't popular enough at Moses' time to have clerics, that god was just a patron to some warlocks. Once that god gained enough followers and respectability their followers became clerics. 'Cause I've read 5e, and that's the difference I see!)
 
@nitsua60 oh man! totally right-on with this lol.
 
@nitsua60 I'm entertained by that. Do you also enjoy delineating between cults and religions? I've found that exercise amusing from time to time.
@nitsua60 I have some gygax quotes about create food & water though.
 
@ColinGross Nice!
If we can get OP's buy-in to edit and reopen then I think that would make a good basis for an answer likely
 
@Rubiksmoose Question is on hold though, and most of it's about the mechanics.
Oh snap, looks like someone directly asked him about the inspiration of cleric powers!
 
3:33 PM
Edit histories record every time a question is closed or reopened right? Even if it gets closed/reopened again?
 
3:56 PM
Nvm. Found out myself.
 
@Rubiksmoose Given that Nits deleted his answer, I don't think I ought to be wasting time on an answer, given that Quentin is right for the reasons that I offer in the comment. But we have already discovered in meta that very few people who participate are willing to understand a thing called a cultural trope, or a common cultural assumption. The question being closed is probably where this needs to resolve.
@nitsua60 I wish you had not deleted that answer, but I think I understand why you chose to do that.
 
@KorvinStarmast Still though, it doesn't matter because that isn't what comments are for and your comment is at worst going to spawn further discussion which is just not what comments are for.
 
@Rubiksmoose Your comment is noted. You sem to have missed my point that the question itself is wrong (the assumption). While you are at it, please make sure to censure all others who have commented on that question, and the answer.
 
@KorvinStarmast I would absolutely do that but 1) there aren't any and 2) the post is locked
I am much less concerned about comments under the answers for the case of answering in comments.
 
@nitsua60 In 4e, he'd be an Invoker! (although I think making Celestial Warlock is a pretty neat way to invoke the Invoker without creating a new class per se)
 
4:10 PM
@KorvinStarmast But also note that there is a recent meta which explicitly says that comments are not to be used to correct misconception ni the question either.
Specifically:
22
Q: Should users refrain from answers (or partial answers) in comments?

YasskierThere are situations, when you know SOMETHING that is related to the question but its insubstantial to be a proper answer, in example lets imagine a question: In which edition of game X dwarves are allowed to play as mages? Now lets say that I know a bit of game X, but I haven't played a wh...

6
Q: A question has some facts majorly wrong: should I be correcting them in comments or an answer?

doppelgreenerI've come across a question where the querent has some facts majorly wrong, and they seem to be a substantial cause of the problem they're describing. I know that we refrain from answering in comments, and I could imagine pointing out those corrections in an answer. How should I handle pointing...

3
Q: What's with the policy on deleting answer comments on on-hold questions?

TheikI understand that the policy is not to allow any answers whatsoever in the comments, but there is a bit of a weird situation when it comes to [on hold] questions. Lately I've been encountering a lot of on hold questions where comments have been removed by the moderators with the usual 'An on hold...

 
I used to find the Invoker class decidedly not-cool but I've come around to see them differently nowadays...
 
4:34 PM
Correction to my earlier statement: the meta does say you can correct the question in the comment but only if the correction is not "substantially solving their problem by correcting them".
 
4:47 PM
@Rubiksmoose my rule of thumb FWiW is: if my clarification wouldn't pose a differential stackable question, then it is either unnecessary or an answer. For example, if the question is "what is an rpg", I could ask "Do you mean Tabletop RPG, Or RPG in general?" (Since answering that question different ways creates different questions). I could not ask "Have you read the introduction to the Players Handbook?" Because the answers to the question aren't dependent on the answer to my clarification.
 
@DavidCoffron I think this sounds like a very interesting and workable rule!
 
Instead I should just write an answer explaining the part of the introduction that would be useful to read (usually with some helpful summarizing quotes)
Clarification questions should be used to make sure the question isn't a different one
 
Totally agree.
Yeah I don't usually see questions asking "Have you read X?" be helpful most of the time. For one thing, OP almost never responds to them from what I've seen. For another, even if they specifically ask "If so, what is your confusion?" usually the answer is just that they didn't know about the rule or were confused about the wording
 
5:02 PM
@Rubiksmoose Irrelevant since the question was closed by the time I got there and the whole thing had turned into a forum discussion.
> You'd have a valid complaint if the question was open for answers; it was not.
 
3
Q: What's with the policy on deleting answer comments on on-hold questions?

TheikI understand that the policy is not to allow any answers whatsoever in the comments, but there is a bit of a weird situation when it comes to [on hold] questions. Lately I've been encountering a lot of on hold questions where comments have been removed by the moderators with the usual 'An on hold...

The open/close status of a question changes nothing about our rules for comment use.
 
@Rubiksmoose You are about a day late and a dollar short if you wanted to do something to improve that question. Kvetching at me is a waste of your time.
 
It is not just about that question though. Allow comment answers on things especially from high rep users sets a bad example for other users. I don't enjoy policing comments and expending the effort to continuously fight against their misuse. Anyways, I'm beyond caring about your comment at this point. If the question gets reopened the comments will get nuked anyways and it won't even be an issue.
 
@Rubiksmoose out of curiosity what question is this?
 
17
Q: Are there examples of priests/clerics having water creation abilities that predate D&D?

enkryptorAs far as I know, many D&D spells were inspired by popular fantasy tropes, like priests' blessings and healing hands or wizards' fireballs and lightnings. However, the Create Water spell seems to stand out, in that it seems less archetypally associated with its class (clerics/priests) than the ot...

@KorvinStarmast Ah nvm, it was already deleted I guess.
 
5:12 PM
@Rubiksmoose Given the number of people throwing noise into that question and comment pile, I am bemused that you decided to vent your spleen on me rather than anyone else. Whatever rows your boat, I guess.
 
Why is this answer accepted and so highly voted. It doesn't answer the question well imo
 
@DavidCoffron Well the question has gone through some confusing changes. But actually it arguably best fits the question in its current form. As to why it is so highly voted, I have no idea, but it shouldn't be.
 
@KorvinStarmast I flagged all the other answers or partial answers FWiW
 
@DavidCoffron I can't read three dozen minds, but I am guessing that some people see it as a bit of a frame challenge, because literary tropes that influence what people who write things in English go waaaaaaaaaaaay back, to include both the New and Old Testaments as they came into the English language.
 
But there is not enough meat to the answer to provide an answer to really any valid stack question on this site.
 
5:16 PM
@KorvinStarmast then the answer should have gone into that connection.
(As some of the comments on it request)
 
They provide no logic or connection to anything RPG related. I'm frankly kind of upset at the laxness of the voting here.
 
As is, it is just an anecdote and highly speculative
 
@DavidCoffron My problem with the question was the assumption of "fantasy tropes" which overlooks how much larger an issue than "fantasy" tropes are. Heck, I was stumbling over allusions to biblical tropes in books and stories that I never expected to see them in. (Example: Robin Hobb's Farseer series about an assassin)
@DavidCoffron That complaint needs to be directed to whomever offered the answer, not me.
 
@KorvinStarmast I wasn't complaining to you per se. I was asking why its getting upvotes
 
@DavidCoffron OK, no worries, I was offering a guess. I could be dead wrong.
 
5:18 PM
There are many other stories about priests creating water that could be the source of the spell
 
@DavidCoffron Or none of them!
 
@DavidCoffron stories that predate the OT, which common cultural/literary reference both of the original authors were familiar with? Which ones do you have in mind?
 
But yeah, bad question as posed right now and the bad answers followed.
@KorvinStarmast Doesn't have to predate them to be the source for the spell.
 
@Rubiksmoose which is why designer intent questions were made off topic in the first place. They're either speculative or just a "do the esearch for me" request
 
@DavidCoffron yup.
4 hours ago, by BESW
Hmm. On reflection, technically none of these are answers at all. They don't just lack support for their claim, they lack a claim. Each is just a quote from a third-party source leaving the reader completely alone in determining why that quote is an answer to the question.
 
5:21 PM
Who put the designer intent tag on that question? The original asker, or someone else? (Haven't we been through this before? )
 
@KorvinStarmast There isn't one actually. I don't think it ever had it.
 
@Rubiksmoose Then why in the name of Sam Hill is designer intent being bandied about regarding the question?
Another problem might be "list question" due to "Are there examples of" ... sort of open ended.
 
@KorvinStarmast I just assumed it was asking "What source inspired the spell" whichbis designer intent. If it's just asking "are there historical examples of similar actions" then that is history or mythology like you said earlier so VtC: Off Topic
 
@KorvinStarmast That argument surrounded a previous rev of the question: rpg.stackexchange.com/revisions/127355/9
 
Hmm, if history of gaming means history of RPG games, and the first known RPG was D&D and or Kriegspiel or Braunstein, then I think that the tag is at least correctly chosen.
 
5:27 PM
@KorvinStarmast I agree that this is the issue the way the question is currently worded IMO
 
@DavidCoffron Yeah, as a literary trope it's obvious, but the limiting factor has to do with the various sub genres of literature that influenced the swords and sorcery RPG in the first place ...
 
I'm kind of curious what the purpose of the question is.
 
@DavidCoffron Vancian Magic being a good example, but we have an explicit explanation for that in a Strategic Review article.
@DavidCoffron Heh, on some other stacks, it might get called a "do my homework for me" question. :)
> I have VtC's a bunch of those over at History.SE ..
 
@DavidCoffron I don't think there reall is one besides curiosity.
@nitsua60 I just think the question topic is kind of interesting and don't want it to be closed because of the form. — enkryptor 3 hours ago
 
@KorvinStarmast couldn't every question be a do my homework question over There?
 
5:30 PM
@DavidCoffron I don't think so.
 
@Rubiksmoose he's been clear he doesn't want designer reasons so not off topic for that reason. If he just wants history, I'm not sure why it wasn't migrated (Or no one brought it up).
 
@DavidCoffron History of gaming is a valid topic here
 
@DavidCoffron I mean it is still RPG centered technically. It is just a too broad list question here.
 
@KorvinStarmast like if my homework was to write a paper on Mesoamerican Trade, and I asked "What sorts of trade was done in Mesoamerica?" no one would be the wiser
 
@Rubiksmoose I too think that the "list" issue is still outstanding without some revision.
@DavidCoffron Give it a try; a couple of the mods there are pretty good about identifying homework questions. :) Let's see if your hypothesis works. Looks like a list question to me.
 
5:36 PM
@KorvinStarmast I think it goes, "one shall not put the lord, thy [diamond mods] to the test" I was just curious how that rule gets enforced
 
@Rubiksmoose seems right
Your answering the questions as if a houserule exists
 
@DavidCoffron Well said, and well played. tips cap
@Rubiksmoose looks like a house rule
 
@Rubiksmoose we could also reword the question using the unearthed arcana lore mastery if OP wants to avoid the tag
 
@DavidCoffron Might be one way to go, but I see no harm in adding it at this junction.
 
5:55 PM
@Rubiksmoose omg. I was reading Elemental Affinity as Elemental Bane. It's still possible to do it with Lore Mastery but I feel dumb
 
You merely adopted the fire, Fighting Man. I was born in it. Moulded by it.
 
@DavidCoffron hah! well still makes sense luckily lol
 
6:12 PM
0
Q: How can I handle this cleric water creation question being closed?

enkryptorFor the first time in two years of being a member of RPG.SE I feel the way my question was put on hold was unfair. It's about this one: Are there examples of priests/clerics having water creation abilities that predate D&D? I might sound biased, but I think such "trivia" questions actually can b...

 
 
1 hour later…
7:21 PM
I see a few hours ago there was a bunch of chatter about the votes on the accepted answer to the "create water" question. If you're not aware that question was on the Hot Network Questions list, so the votes on it are likely to be waaaaay more than we might have otherwise expected. (It only dropped off recently; a bunch of answer deletions probably tanked its "hotness score.")
^^ Wow. What's going on? Rant deleted. I'm'a go take a nap, I guess.
 
@nitsua60 oh that explains a lot. BTW thanks for saying that about the title-changing thing. I must admit that I was a little salty at the tongue lashing I seemed to be getting for something that I thought and intended to be helpful. Though I don't expect to do the right thing everytime I'm glad someone was assuming good intentions on my part.
really I hope it helps OP understand what happened which I think you did an excellent job with on the whole thing. But I also wanted to let you know that it made me feel better about it as well :)
Not sure why you got a downvote though...maybe your suggesting to post it as a new question?
 
@Rubiksmoose Oh, thanks.
@Rubiksmoose Eh, it's totally rambly and disjointed and hard to read/follow/extract anything from. Clear sign I'm too close to it =)
 
7:37 PM
@nitsua60 I mean it is a bit rambly sure, but you are the only one who potentially covers some of the hurt that OP felt about the whole situation by doing a very eloquent job at explaining some of the things they took negatively IMO.
But really I am too close to the whole thing too obviously. I just need to step away from the computer and quit while I'm ahead lol.
 
Completely unrelated question: I'm going to be playing a one-shot and need to make a synergizing pair of 16th-level 5e characters. Anyone have a fun idea rattling around?
I mean, obviously they'll be husband and wife.
Trying to think about duo-dynamics. There's "set em' up, knock em' down" (which is very different from the "knock em' up, set em' down" I mis-typed first), "back-to=back pistoleros," "fools rush in vs. drag his bacon out of the fire," ...?
Want character parity, so no mentor-student thing.
Rivals. Rivals could be good.
 
There's "Mr. and Mrs. Smith".
 
8:03 PM
Yeah =)
I was picturing them when I wrote "back to back," though they have some scenes like that and some of the rival-stuff going on. Kinda like when Drizz't and Artemis have to flee $PLACE together to make it out alive.
 
But there's a certain specific dynamic to "Mr. and Mrs. Smith". Namely that they've been hiding their real professions from each other, they're re-kindling their romance, and they have completely different philosophies on their professions and they're not hesitant on criticizing each other about it.
 
8:20 PM
@nitsua60 I had a two-player 3.5 game in which one character was a powerful but reckless necromancer whose failure to remember the long-term plan got them in a lot of trouble, and the other character was the necromancer's undead minion who was a tactical long-game planner that kept having to revise the plan on the fly to get his master out of trouble.
(They were both working for a powerful warlock, and about halfway through the campaign the warlock stopped talking to the necromancer at all and just paid attention to the undead.)
> Warlock: "Go to this place where a hound archon makes weapons for heroes, and bring me back the hound archon--ALIVE!"
[several hours later]
Necromancer: "Here's yer dead hound archon, boss."
W: [hits the roof] "I wanted his SOUL you dirt-digging numbskull. I can't get a soul from a corpse, BUT MAYBE TORMENTING YOURS WILL COMFORT ME."
Undead: "Wait, wait, I think we can get you a BETTER soul, and it'll be even more deviously evil to accomplish too."
(The warlock was planning to make an evil intelligent artifact powered by the hound archon's soul. Instead the campaign became all about tricking one of the "heroes" of a typical group of murderhobo PCs --based on characters from an old group I'd played in-- to bond his own soul with the weapon.)
(It worked, too, but the final confrontation went sideways when the newly-ensouled weapon started fireballing the warlock trying to wield it.)
(Protip: in 3.5, intelligent weapons derive their free will from Charisma. Don't stuff a high-level sorcerer into a sword and expect him to be complacent about it.)
 
8:40 PM
@nitsua60 Husband and wife, 16th level, 5e, synergy. Let me dig into a few things ... get back to ya ...
 
@nitsua60 I liked the Nine/Rose dynamic of "embittered and withdrawn but formerly empathetic" contrasting with "impulsively empathetic toward strangers but deeply selfish around friends and family."
But that's not easy to express mechanically in D&D. (or roleplay in D&D, for that matter, given its default assumptions)
 
@nitsua60 Single class each, or is MC an option?
 
...Adam Adamant and Georgina Jones? Fish out of water unable to cope with contemporary society but hypercompetent in physical modes of conflict resolution, contrasted with physically bumbling but socially hypercompetent.
 
Or Minsc and Boo ... make boo a gnome druid or a Halfling druid
 
@BESW The Shape of Water? A literal fish?
 
8:46 PM
I'm not sure a miniature giant space hamster is a CR-appropriate target for Wildshape ;)
Far too powerful
 
I still need to watch that movie.
 
Mr and Mrs. Incredible. No idea how you'd do that though. I've got superhero on the brain in a serious way lately though.
 
@ACuriousMind If it's a miniature giant space hamster, then Shirley it's just a space hamster. (also, is it a Melonpool reference? Because if so +1 Internets for deep cut.)
I'd suggest Britten and Brülightly but that's probably to noir. Also weird.
 
@BESW No, that's a Baldur's Gate reference, where Minsc and Boo are from. Boo is described as a "miniature giant space hamster".
(I have no idea what Melonpool even is)
 
@Yuuki Good movie, in that "Silly movie concept but del Toro was in charge so he just del Toroed at it so hard it became good without making the premise any less silly" sort of way.
 
8:50 PM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, messaging number in answer, pattern-matching email in answer, +1 more: How to destroy a spellbook when the wizard dies? by William Sophia on rpg.SE (@doppelgreener)
 
@ACuriousMind Melonpool is a newspaper-style webcomic about an alien obsessed with Earth 60s pop culture who wants to be Captain Kirk but is more of a Gilligan. His spaceship's "engine" is Sammy the Hammy, a giant hamster who runs in a wheel to power the ship.
 
9:02 PM
(Melonpool ran regularly from '96 to '05 and then was rebooted in 2014. I'm only familiar with pre-reboot Melonpool, now only available to Patreons and in dead tree format.)
 
9:20 PM
@nitsua60 For a Mr/Mrs smith combo, if MC is OK, I suggest a Paladin 6/Warlock 10 (he) and a Sorcerer 14 / Warlock 2 (she). Paladin uses heavy armor and GWM, and their "back to back shooting" is the both of them using EB to shoot at things. (No need to have the same invocations, and indeed having different ones would be kind of fun). Paladin 7 warlock 9 would also work. For single class I'll need to check a few notes back home.
> and for more contrast, make the sorcerer the Shadow variety, and Paladin probably Ancients. Tension.
 
@Rubiksmoose Hmm. How would you describe the Miles/Gwen teamup dynamic?
 
 
1 hour later…
10:38 PM
@BESW fantastic description
 
11:09 PM
@trogdor Del Toro is, I think, at his best when he takes really cliche film concepts that are usually found in b-movie schlock, but he genuinely loves them and goes all out on high concept style and theme and digs into character where he totally doesn't have to.
Pacific Rim, Hellboy, The Shape of Water. They're all "Look at this nonsense isn't it glorious now wait I'm gonna make you care too."
 
11:26 PM
D&D 5e Core Rules Gift Set out on October 30th
 
@BESW yeah I agree
 
11:54 PM
@BESW Sounds like the sort of Butch and Sundance dynamic I'd been thinking of =)
@KorvinStarmast MC is an option.
@BESW I'm not familiar with the referent?
 
@BESW did you expect we would somehow end up killing that guy?
 
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