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5:21 PM
Request for recommendations: This upcoming weekend I'm going to some sort of trip/retreat-thing with some friends, and I'm trying to plan activities... so obviously I think "we should do a short campaign." But I also know that probably half of them have not played a tabletop RPG before. I'm personally a fan of D&D 5e but I'm worried that the learning curve / prep-time for that is far too great for what might be only 1 or 2 relatively short sessions.
So I'm looking for some alternative that is in the same style as D&D but has a very quick learning curve and character-creation process.
 
@NautArch I'm gonna split it. Just gotta figure out where. I think I'll just do "Can you" and "what happens". Can someone 'on hold' (too broad) this one for me? @doppelgreener @nitsua60
 
@PhiNotPi Have you looked into Dungeon World? I hear it's simpler than D&D but thematically similar
 
Yeah, Dungeon World is quite simple to pick up. But it does require a lot of paradigm shifting if you're already used to DnD - the way it works is massively different.
 
Alternatively you could use 5e but be very loose with the rules and light on mechanics
Basically the players describe what they want the characters to do, and you're the one with the dice and making judgment calls to streamline stuff
 
I wouldn't say the GM is the one with the dice because they don't roll at all in Dungeon World :P
(or wait, maybe damage rolls? I don't remember)
 
5:25 PM
@kviiri I meant using 5e but streamlined
 
Ah yes
Dungeon World works so similar that you got me confused there :)
 
@PhiNotPi If you're unfamiliar with the show Harmon Quest (if not, I recommend it), they have celebrities come on and play "a tabletop game" with very loose rules. The GM is actually playing Pathfinder, which is even more complicated than 5e, but they streamline it so the mechanics don't require any attention, and make a lot of handwave rulings to that fun things will happen.
 
The basic mechanic of Dungeon World is "to do it, do it" - in other words, it suffices to just tell what your character is doing and the group determines whether that triggers a move. The move might call for a roll: 2d6+modifier, where 10+ is a hard hit, 7-9 is a soft hit and 6- is a miss (a failure, or a very interesting success).
 
@DavidCoffron link?
 
One of the bits I like in Apocalypse World and Dungeon World is such emphasis on the narrative, and having rules to empower the players to cool stuff. The GM can't subtly up the TN if the players roll well because the TN is always the same, and the roll is always open.
 
5:30 PM
@PhiNotPi Going rules-light does put more burden on the GM though. In addition to making most of the rolls for the PCs, the GM has to build the characters, prepare their items and spells, etc.
 
I never got the same good touch with DW, but with Apocalypse World I can improv an entire movie's worth of adventuring over the course of one evening with zero prep and about half an hour of character creation. That rocks
 
I'll look into dungeon world.
@MikeQ Are you referring to rules-light D&D?
 
@nitsua60 rpg.stackexchange.com/q/124704/41726 it is contingent on the answer (an assumption I made) to another question and thus is virtually 2 questions in 1
 
I can see what the theme of the Stack is today
 
@PhiNotPi Yes. The players play the adventure, while the DM plays the number game.
 
5:33 PM
I remember the good ol' days of Vampire invitation craze.
 
Or, you know, however they want to manage that. There is no One Correct Way to play rules-light D&D
 
I have my doubts about running something like combat that way
At least I'd feel like I was working with a very strange black box if I had to play DnD combat without having a rules interface
 
@kviiri The black box model is generally useful for new players, who don't want to get bogged down with numbers and calculations, and want to have fun instead
 
@MikeQ That's a very generalizing statement
 
True. Another way to put it is, let the players worry about "what does this do" rather than "how does this work"
 
5:39 PM
For players who don't want numbers, I'd recommend something not-DnD in the first place, but with DnD, there's a reasonably complex combat mechanic that, when hidden inside a black box, just becomes really obscure and chaotic.
 
Different strokes for different folks, I guess
For example, I get really excited about the big numbers and all the fun math that I can do with them. Whereas my less tabletop-experienced friends want to experience the adventure and exploration part of the game, but are hesitant to tackle all the math and number-juggling.
 
Well yeah... but I have a really hard time imagining numbers-free DnD working well for anyone. It sounds like alcohol-free vodka or something.
 
I guess it depends on a person's expectations for what is "the point" of D&D
 
Well I want to make sure I'm not talking past you... how do you imagine a numberless combat scene playing out?
 
@kviiri Whoever yells loudest wins
 
5:46 PM
Basically, the GM uses the numbers to determine whether things succeed or fail, or by how much they succeed or fail. The players describe what they want their characters to do.
 
@kviiri I think the idea is to treat it like they describe the action, you perform the mechanics (rolling dice, etc.) and tell them how it played out. It's numberless for them, but normal for you?
 
@NautArch Yeah but does that give enough feedback on whether the action one took was good? Combat is the most gamey part of DnD and relies quite heavily on knowing what is actually happening.
 
I vaguely recall an RPG with a Fate-like mechanic wherein players could accept tokens in exchange for concessions, and redeem them later to compel the narrative
 
@kviiri What do you mean by "good"?
 
I mean, I'm picturing a scenario where the player tries a variety of things without knowing which of them actually work, because the connection between DnD mechanics and reality is rather tenuous at times, and just winds up being really confused
 
5:47 PM
For example, if the party is retreating from a fight, the GM might say "I need someone to get wounded" and that character gets a token that they can later spend to say "I shoot the bad guy in his face"
 
@kviiri You could give them a list of actions that they can use (attack with sword, attack with bow, cast spell-here are your spells, etc.)
 
@NautArch Accomplishing what the player wants to see
 
@kviiri The GM would still describe the results
 
@MikeQ ...so the GM describes the mechanics but adds a layer of extra?
 
@kviiri Accomplishment will be based off your dice. THey describe their attempted action, you figure out what mechanic works with it, roll the dice, narrate the outcome.
 
5:49 PM
Example:
> GM: "Okay, it's Ragnar the barbarian's turn."
> Player: "Uh... Ragnar is going to run up to the goblin and attack with his broadsword."
> GM: [rolls dice] "The goblin dodges out of the way!"
or
> GM: [rolls dice] "You hit!" [rolls damage] "The goblin is now heavily wounded."
 
@NautArch Accomplishment is not based off dice if you don't assume anything about player competence.
 
@MikeQ This just sounds like the DM is playing D&D with himself and the players throw out suggestions
How can you build a character in a game like this? Or equip one?
 
A toy example: I want to help my Ranger friend hit the target with their bow and arrow so I push the target prone. If I roll well, the Ranger has a harder time hitting the target.
 
@DavidCoffron Okay, got it.
 
@kviiri that'd be toughter, as in D&D a prone target is harder to hit with a bow and arrow.
 
5:51 PM
@NautArch That is the point
 
@NautArch Exactly
 
Player 1 tried to help player 2, but because of the opacity between players and mechanics, did the opposite
 
The DnD combat system isn't, numbers or not, well suited for people who don't know how it works.
@MikeQ I would imagine people getting frustrated with the opacity
 
@kviiri In that case, the GM should say "If the target is prone, they would be a smaller target and thus harder to hit"
but yes, I can understand the possible frustration in that "harder to hit" means little when the dice are hidden behind the GM screen
 
I don't really see the point, to be honest. There are so many good RPG systems for people who don't want the crunch
 
5:53 PM
Point is, there a lot of possible ways to run "rules light" D&D. But in general, the players don't need to know all the rules before playing, so the GM ends up picking up most of the slack.
@kviiri That is also true.
 
Hiding the crunch seems to me like a bad way to address the issues with it
 
@kviiri then I'd probably explain to them that it's harder to hit a prone target - are you sure that's what you want to do?
Or explain how the Help action works, and give them that option.
 
@NautArch That's an option, sure, but I'd like my players to know stuff they need without black box testing
 
@kviiri butyou'll encounter that problem with nearly any game. What you want is very low overhead game with minimal rules so that they don't need to learn them.
What about any of the 200 word RPGs from the contests here?
 
@kviiri Why would someone think that pushing a target prone would make them easier to hit with arrows?
 
5:58 PM
@NautArch Why do you say that's a problem with nearly any game?
@GreySage Because it's harder to dodge while prone
 
@kviiri Yes, given that the arrow is moving toward them. But if they're harder to hit, then it's less likely that the arrow will be moving toward them in the first place, so dodging isn't as important.
 
@kviiri In every action or fantasy movie you've seen, what do the heroes do when someone starts shooting at them? They dive to the floor.
 
@kviiri Because every game is going to have rules and possibly rules that aren't immediately obvious (like prone and ranged attacks.) If you don't want folks to have to read a large set of rules in order to be prepared to play, then you need a system without a large set of rules.
 
@GreySage If you were to give me a crossbow and a choice to aim at a prone guy or a standing one, I'd pick depending on range.
@NautArch There's a ton of systems with a manageable amount of rules. DnD is not "nearly any game".
There's a LOT of ground between 200 word RPGs and DnD.
 
@kviiri Right, if you're right next to them its easier if they are lying down, if you are further away it's harder. This isn't a rules obscuration problem, it's a PC doing something that is obviously a bad idea.
 
6:02 PM
@GreySage It's not an obviously bad idea.
 
@kviiri Okay, I've only looked at a few systems and they all seem pretty rules-heavy. But I'm sure there are - i'm just saying something like that is what you need based on what you've said you'd like to do.
 
If the Ranger is something like 15 feet away, it's completely plausible they'd find a prone target easier than a standing one.
 
All I know is, I have friends who really want(ed) to play D&D, because high fantasy and adventure and killing things. But as soon as I started describing the basic mechanics (actions, bonus actions, initiative, skills, classes) their eyes glazed over and they got bored
 
@NautArch There's also systems where mastery of the rules is much less important for the gameplay experience
@MikeQ Honestly, I think this problem is that people think DnD == TTRPGs.
 
^^
 
6:04 PM
@MikeQ I get that a lot with some of my friend groups too. One of the things I've done in the past is play some minimalist games to get them into RPGs (Roll for Shoes is a great starting point for example) and then slowly add fun mechanics as we play. Eventually they are basically playing D&D and I just make the formal switch next campaign
 
I've teached many people to play TTRPGs, and people don't tend to have a clue about what DnD is like, apart from "there's an alignment grid and you can pretty much do anything you want in a fantasy world" is a pretty common starting point.
 
@kviiri Gotta love alignment grid memes that assume there's a one-to-one match between characters and alignments.
As if it's impossible that Superman and Batman could be Lawful Good.
 
@Yuuki Of course not. Which is why all stories must have exactly 9 characters.
 
So when people ask me if I could teach them to play DnD, I ask them whether they really want to play DnD or would they like to try some other TTRPG. Over the years given the choice, exactly two people wanted specifically DnD, one because "it's the real deal" (which annoys me to no end) and the other because she had gorged a figurative ton of Forgotten Realms literature in her teens.
 
6:11 PM
As a side note, I still like superhero stories, but I'm starting to get a bit jaded on them after realizing that they make all make a basic implication of "might is right".
 
The real deal guy did change his mind too, because he had rather inflated expectations about DnD... basically boiling down to it being far crunchier than he expected :P
 
Alignment can be fun with Vengeance Oath Paladins.
"I'm here to eradicate cultists of Tiamat." "Tell me, does a good character stealth the room, assassinate four men in a well coordinated maneuver, make a bone totem out of one, then get the rogue to unlock the next door, open it, have two corpses tossed inside, then slam the door shut while you start loud negotiations of the remaining cultists choices?" "Yes. It's the right thing to do."
"Admittedly the bone totem might have been a bit much, none of them got to see it."
"You're scary." "You're sounding like an agent of Tiamat." Paladin sneer intensifies
 
@MikeQ Have you considered taking Dungeon World for a spin with these people?
 
@kviiri Not yet. I'm not as familiar with Dungeon World. I only know what I've heard others say about it.
 
Dungeon World bundle is still up on Bundle of Holding. I need to snag that this week.
 
6:16 PM
I'm not really in love with it, personally, because I can't help noticing things I prefer in Apocalypse World... but it does put some effort into maintaining the dungeon adventuring spirit of DnD.
@MikeQ I've heard it described as "DnD as imagined by people who never played DnD" so it might be a superb fit for the problem :P
But it does require a bit of a paradigm shift
 
@Maximillian An interesting read on Dungeon World comparisons: reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/32u8rj/…
Also:
18
Q: What are the major innovations in Dungeon World compared to D&D 3.5/Pf/4e?

MalaIn various comments on this site, DW was mentioned as [Dungeon world/Apocalypse World] is really more required reading for any designer today working on innovation in mechanics Having read the ruleset, I do not (yet?) see why some posters feel this is such a major step forward. A few exa...

 
@kviiri Personally I'm 100% willing to run the "black box" approach of D&D
For new players, they don't really care if they don't see all the numbers.
 
I think you're missing out :<
 
@kviiri Er, I re-worded that message. I can't really prefer D&D over a game I haven't played.
 
@MikeQ Weeeell :D ... quite a many players I know are in the "DnD only, ever" cult so it didn't strike me as particularly outlandish!
 
6:23 PM
@MikeQ Have you considered a narrative-focused approach. You could just create NPC statblocks for the characters (make them go up in CR milestone by milestone; gaining abilities based on new items/narrative reasons/fun things they discussed with you) and have them describe the story. They don't need to see the numbers; just roll dice and roleplay.
 
@DavidCoffron Yes, that is more or less what I was trying to describe. That, in addition to handwaving mechanics that require them to look things up, although that depends on the players (age, attention span, etc.)
 
@DavidCoffron i'm not sure which question that is; if it isn't already closed can you raise a flag?
 
I think you could pare down 5e further to make it simple to learn
1d20+stat+proficiency+advantage, what more do you need
 
@kviiri I am in that cult unwittingly. I would love to try new RPGs but can't find people who also do (and I don't want to try to learn it in an online group as I find they tend to be unwelcoming to my style of game-learning where I want to dive into everything at once)
@MikeQ My brothers and I play a game called MvM (monsters vs monsters) which is basically the same thing and balance actually works out much better IMO. It can be difficult to figure out how to make encounters without as much guidance, but not impossible.
 
The cult of d20. When you've played one you can likely play similar.
 
6:27 PM
@SPavel That is what the majority of rolls are, already
 
I tended to steer newer roleplayers toward D&D, simply because it has rails to follow, which is useful starting out. You really need some experience under your belt before you go diving into narrative games, especially as GM.
 
@DavidCoffron Similar boat here (can't find players with whom to try out new games), plus 5e has small numbers so it can be streamlined very easily
 
5e tried to dramatically reduce looking up tables and excessive combat math, didn't it?
 
@GreySage Rolls yes but there's a lot more stuff
Which can be cut out without changing most of the gameplay, as you point out
 
@Maximillian I do agree that DnD does have some oft-neglected advantages for certain starter groups
 
6:30 PM
@Maximillian Yes, although another goal (using the black box /rules light approach) is to cut out mid-game arguments over rules and mechanics
 
Eg. when played as a rather straightforward combat+exploration game, DnD is tremendously easy for people who are shy with roleplaying
No need to improvise stuff when you don't want to, just look at your powers and cast lance of faith. 4e even included a ready bit of flavor text to use if you felt like it :P
 
@MikeQ 5e tries to do that by giving GM final say, which does work in many groups I've been in (with the occasional outlier)
 
I seem to recall the devs behind 5e have commented or indirectly commented they'd like to see more resolutions at the table and not drawn out debate online getting into legalese level dissections of what a word in a rule means.
 
Personally, I've found that my RPG experience has grown better the less say the GM has over the rules, but that might not be the case for newcomers
 
@kviiri There needs to be a happy medium between "here is the exclusive list of things you do, do one of these things until enemy = dead" and "do literally anything and then figure out what to roll"
Games like Fate can be paralyzing for novices
 
6:33 PM
New groups need a foundation to build on. You don't need overbearing, comprehensive rules, you just need a few solid ones to get you moving in the right direction. Which is also why I usually suggest a new GM pick up a published adventure to either use or study as a guideline for their own creation.
 
@SPavel Well, for certain values of needs, yep .)
 
@kviiri I still recommend 4e to new players/GMs sometimes (although I personally prefer 5e) especially when they come from a video game background and are just getting into roleplay. The mechanics feel video-game-eqsue to me and it is not as roleplay involved. Some players will naturally gravitate towards the roleplay and might seek other systems down the line but 4e does the combat thing very well
 
@kviiri Strongly prefers :)
 
@SPavel Sure thing, it certainly was for me
 
@DavidCoffron 4E was amazing at converting WoW players to RPG night.
3
 
6:33 PM
@DavidCoffron This is why I own 4e :)
 
I'd see players arrange their power cards like it was their 'hotbar'.
 
@Maximillian Likewise
 
@Maximillian but muh exclusivity
 
@SPavel I think Apocalypse World 1e used to have a rather good medium. I don't recall if you know the rules, but the basic idea is that you just tell what your character does and the group as a whole (or led by the GM) checks whether it matches the description of one of the moves in the game. The move tells what to roll and what happens.
 
I wonder if there's a way to structure a modular system of sorts
 
6:35 PM
@kviiri I've played all from IV to XI. I don't think they've aged particularly well, you have to have a soft spot for that style of goofy dungeon-crawly RPGs to tolerate them today, imo
 
As the books for 4E continued to come out and feature-creep and class-creep continued though, it got a little much to handle. Here's my power, here's the 9 keywords on it, wind is blowing east, it is a Wednesday so there's a +2, also it is equinox, +3/2sqrt[i] where i is my wisdom bonus minus my int bonus times charisma.....
</sarcasm>
 
I specify 1e because AW1e has few enough moves to learn during one session. 2e has way more, and I think this is its only major downside compared to 1e.
 
Something like that one where you do adverb and verb like [carefully][bees]
 
For strange SciFi/Fantasy mixups from that era, I actually much prefer Wizardry VII, but that might just be my nostalgia talking
 
@ACuriousMind Okay, thanks for your input! I asked elsewhere too, and two distinct people singled out VI as a good installment. Any comment on that?
 
6:37 PM
@DavidCoffron sorry for my waffling answer
 
Ultimately it comes down to "What system is right for this group?"
 
For example, you can decompose a typical 4e power "I want to kill that guy so I use my magic to cast the damage dealing spell" into Goal (kill the guy), power source (do the magic), and specific action (deal the damage)
 
Despite having my favorites, they're not appropriate for every group I've had.
 
And then you can shave off levels as desired. I want to kill the guy using my magic. Not a listed spell, just my magic.
I want to kill the guy by dealing damage. No particular power, let's figure that out narratively.
 
@kviiri Well, there's basically IV+V, which can be fused into one giant game, and the loosely connected VI+Vii+VIII which work with entirely different mechanics/graphics. VI is probably the best of the latter three, but World of Xeen (IV+V) has a different feeling entirely
 
6:38 PM
After all, movies/books often have the wizard attack in a non-wizardly way
 
@ACuriousMind Thanks!
 
Or, I want to bamboozle the guardsman so he doesn't notice that my friend is pickpocketing his soul, doesn't matter if I use magic or extremely awkward erotic roleplay or just a "hey look there" move
And if you want to keep it vague, there's some default modifier to tie the description you come up with to mechanics, if you want precise, the mechanics are more spelled out
 
@kviiri There's also IX. We don't talk about IX :)
 
@ACuriousMind So it's one of Those installments
 
If you botch pickpocketing someones soul, do you get their cash instead?
 
6:42 PM
In Apocalypse World, I'd run pickpocketing the guard as a single under fire roll if it wasn't particularly important. Hard hit, you got whatever you went looking for. Soft hit, you got it, but the guard notices it's gone later and knows it's you. Miss, you find yourself grabbed by the wrist and looking up the barrel of the fellow's revolver and he very calmly demands to know why your hand was in his pocket.
Of course, since we're talking about a soul here, Augury might be needed to set it up.
 
@Maximillian You grab the wrong thing, and steal their heart
Roll Charisma with disadvantage to let them down gently
 
@Maximillian No, you instead end up with their sole.
 
You've disappointed the orc. He's not going to raise the alarm, he just needs you to go. He needs some personal time.
4
Party awkwardly shuffles sideways out the door.
 
You've successfully banished the guard into the friend zone, a dimension from which he can never return
 
@ACuriousMind Had to look in the transcript to realize you weren't talking about Final Fantasy.
Although "the loosely connected VI+Vii+VIII" really should've clued me in.
 
6:48 PM
@Maximillian I'm going to use this
 
@Yuuki FF has no monopoly on using Roman numerals :P
 
Depending a bit on the definition, I've never played a CRPG for more than a few hours
Not because I dislike them, I just never came around to wanting or playing one.
Possible exceptions: JRPGs like Final Fantasy, Undertale, Elder Scrolls: Morrowind (although I didn't finish that one either)
 
I'm interested in this upcoming JRPG called Octopath Traveler.
 
It'll be exciting to try one out at some point because I have literally no idea what to expect!
 
"Undertale is a cute looking game." "Yeah. Um. You need bullet-hell skills." "I need /what/ ?"
 
6:52 PM
@kviiri CRPG?
 
I've recently had the existential crisis that I subconsciously hate most JRPGs, and I'm very unhappy about it
 
@GreySage Caucasian Role-Playing Game.
 
@Yuuki Uhhhh
 
@Yuuki I still don't know what that refers to
 
@GreySage "Computer RPG", usually meaning the early Western style of these ala Might and Magic, Wizardry, Bard's Tale, Wasteland, etc
 
6:53 PM
(No, not really)
 
@GreySage Computer RPG. Typical use of the term excludes (varyingly) JRPGs and (usually) MMORPGs.
 
("Western" as the opposite of "Eastern", not as in "Wild West")
 
Ah, so you mean a "Video Game"
 
Yeah, computer "RPG" doesn't mean much anymore, unless you have a specific definition beyond the JRPG model
 
@Yuuki Wouldn't be too bad of a setting, play as a highlander throughout the ages dodging various empires trying to conquer your region, grow some grapes, make some wine
Level up your battle mule
 
6:55 PM
JRPGs are largely cookie-cutter. Spiky haired heroes, going about their business, OH NO BAD THING. Look into bad thing. BAD THINGS STILL HAPPENING. Now we need to deal with a tangent plot while the main one is still going. Someone has died/changed/flipped sides/turned into a robot! OH NO THE BAD THING IS STILL BAD. Here is a really /elaborate/ dungeon with a different play mechanic or unique trait. Here is big bad boss/a god/boss god/some kind of voltron of lesser bosses.
 
@MikeQ I remember the good ol' days when games had "RPG elements" (meaning some sort of stat system)
 
@Maximillian So is basically every RPG, both video based and turn based.
 
@kviiri YOUR CHOICES MATTER (in reality: morality slider that adjusts the angle of your eyebrows)
 
@Maximillian Don't forget about the advertised 60+ hours play time, a.k.a. 2 hours of story about killing god, and 58 hours of grinding and excessively long hallways
 
@kviiri Then they were "roguelike" and now they're "battle royales".
 
6:56 PM
Apparently at some point it stopped being okay to have menus to equip characters and make detailed choices.
 
I'd play a roguelike battle royale
Try to craft your fort, botch the roll to pick up a plank, and die
 
@Yuuki Don't forget the "cool crafting system"!
 
Like the generification of Mass Effect or Dragon Age with the titles after the first.
 
@SPavel Every time you lose, you need to create a new account.
Because apparently permadeath is the key feature of a roguelike.
 
@Yuuki Every time you lose, you need to buy a new computer
 
6:56 PM
PRESS Y TO EQUIP BEST GUN YOU HAVE.
 
@Maximillian Why not just default to the best gun
 
@SPavel Why not just Monika
 
Well there used to be choices, like sword that does most damage, sword that does slightly less damage but has an effect on hit.
 
And when it runs out of bullets, push it down the metal grinder and bullets for the second best gun come out the other side
 
@Maximillian Some QoL changes were good though. The last thing I want to manage in an RPG with guns is ammo.
 
6:57 PM
@Yuuki Slot based inventory, each bullet takes 1 tile
 
It seems you all have some very deep-seated issues with specific games. I'll leave you to them while I eat lunch.
 
@SPavel That's more Resident Evil's insane inventory.
 
@GreySage We have deep-seated issues with many things
 
I have issues that games are not specifically designed to please me and me aloneeeeeeeeeee
 
@Maximillian Would you like to carry a handgun, or 2 herbs
 
6:58 PM
But yes, JRPGs are mostly samey, whereas western RPGs are mostly hodgepodges of game mechanics from other best-selling games
 
Trick question, you have been eaten by a dog
 
@SPavel I tried to combine the herb and the handgun and now I have an ivy decorated rocket launcher.
 
I have issues with games that don't bother to explain the ways they're meant to be entertaining :<
 
Octopath Traveler looks interesting because there's essentially 8 main characters and the game consists of you taking the viewpoint of each of them.
 
@SPavel The dog wanted a Jill Sandwich
 
6:59 PM
So long as I don't ever try to think too hard about WTF Jenova is and its relation to Sephiroth is, and simply enjoy that final boss music instead.
 
@MikeQ Master of locking and unlocking
 
@Maximillian Magic space alien and its mad-science emo clone
 
Dark Souls - There's a story here but you'll have to read it off the tiny details on items and cryptic messages of NPCs!
Anyway. Just play what's fun.
And if you play with others, have consideration for what is fun for them.
Unless their fun is taking away your fun. That is a big no.
 
@MikeQ For a second, I read that as "mad-science elmo clone".
 
@Yuuki the one winged muppet
 
7:02 PM
The height difference would make most of his scenes way less intimidating.
 
@Maximillian Also, take advantage of items that increase in power without requiring level ups and become a SL1 invader with a fully ascended pyromancy flame and grief newbies.
 
@Yuuki This reminds me of a classic NetHack trick where you try to reach a temple with little level but a lot of money, because you can buy semi-permanent AC blessings with a cost that scales by your level
 
@Yuuki I never want to have to grind 99 humanity for chaos fireball ever again. I'm done with that game. I won't go back! Noooooo. I don't have to beat Artorias!
 
@Maximillian He needs the super-long sword to compensate for his tiny arms
 
@MikeQ He should buy bigger ones from an arms dealer
 
7:05 PM
@Maximillian Artorias is a lot easier to beat if you strip down to your undies and carry a big stick.
wink wink nudge nudge no literally i killed artorias with a great club
 
I streamed my attempts on that for days. It was painful.
 
@NautArch It's the best answer fmpov. It's a bit ambiguous as you indicate
 
"Surely this cycle isn't a triple-flip." it is. dead.
 
It's the answer I wouldve given
 
Artorias really tests your greed.
 
7:07 PM
And the longer it goes, the stronger he gets.
 
"Surely I can get one more hit in and kill him faster."
No. No you can't.
 
I did love the environmental ambiance there.
The shallow breathing while you're just outside the gate.
The fact he's got a broken arm and is murdering you with a greatsword, one handed.
 
And also that his broken arm is his dominant arm.
 
He is a very spooky ghost-wraith-knight thing
Also no fair teaching your dog to use a greatsword.
 
Artorias is just great because the boss fight is tough as it is and then you realize that it was nowhere near where he was at his prime.
Although it's a bit undercut by the fact that you go on to beat Manus.
 
7:12 PM
Apparently he can be cheesed though.
Though thankfully, tabletop RPGs don't really allow for video game adventure cheese techniques such as "I exploit the terrain inconsistencies outside the arena of Great Wolf Sif and use 600 arrows to slay him from outside aggro."
 
@Maximillian Have you never played Dnd?
 
Usually I'll counter with, "How the heck are you carrying 600 arrows?"
 
There is a whole genre of cheesy builds which allow one to destroy anything and everything
 
I will confess, reading how to destroy the Tarrasque at as low level as possible made entertaining reads, but never something I would want to GM
Also I wouldn't have some big nasty wolf just stay there and take 600 shots to the face.
"I have a feat that lets me shoot him 600 times, in the face." "What book is that?" "It's 3rd party." "Ugggghhhhhhhhhhhh."
 
I found it on dndwiki!
 
7:18 PM
((I typically don't allow third party books at my table.))
I've heard of the horrors of dndwiki. Do they at least flag homebrew content?
 
And now there's the "it's in this 3.5 splatbook".
"But we're playing 5e."
 
"I wrote my own conversion, see?"
 
"That's D&D, this is D&D, they're all D&D."
@Maximillian Nah, don't even bother with conversions.
 
"Excuse me, when do I get my Holy Avenger?" <--- 2E Paladin.
 
D&D === D&D.
 
7:20 PM
@Maximillian They do. Kind of. But not as well as they could. Also, just absolutely no oversight or curating on the homebrew there.
 
No curation? Eww.
 
@Maximillian "This homebrew 3.5e feat gives me +16 to hit. Thats okay in 5e right?"
 
I haven't bought 5E. Not because I don't want to, I could never drum up interest for it. My former group had a death-grip on d20/3.5 derivatives like PF
 
3.5/PF has some fun builds just because of how much content is out there (wtb 5e Factotum or Butterfly Sting), but I'd rather play 5e if I can.
 
7:34 PM
@Yuuki 3.x/PF is about building characters. It's the LEGOs of tabletop gaming.
 
I'd really like a factotum in 5e though.
The problem is that bard is too magic and rogue is not nearly magic enough.
 
You need some kind of David Bowie class.
~Dance Magic Dance~
 
@Maximillian Race: Goblin; Class: King
 
Halt any combat if you have a musical number prepared.
 
8:05 PM
@Maximillian I generally go the exact opposite direction of the 3rd-party stuff: had a session 0 last night at which only 4 races (human, dwarf, elf, halfling) and 5 classes (barbarian, fighter, rogue, sorcerer, wizard) were allowed. And I've got to say it doesn't seem to constrict creativity at all.
(If anything, I feel like having three of the same class actually pushes up the incentive to be creative.)
 
@nitsua60 That sounds like the same approach rather than the opposite approach.
 
Having more options when building character =/= Having more creativity in game
@nitsua60 I pinged you in the back room. Was interested in joining one of the chatizen games. Is that possible?
 
@Yuuki I meant the opposite of the 3rd-party ethos, not the opposite of Maximillian. Definitely not being clear today =\
@MikeQ Lemme go look.
 
8:21 PM
@nitsua60 It's easier to look up the rules for Fighter than "Gladitorial Fightmage of Antioch."
 
> "I'm a Wizard."
> "You don't look like a wizard."
> "I graduated from wizard college."
> "I'm telling you, you don't look the type."
> "It was a sports scholarship."
 
@DavidCoffron there's an "ability scote increase" in your hand-crossbow answer. For next time you edit.
 
8:41 PM
@Yuuki Trick question, undergraduate athletes don't graduate
 
@Yuuki Admittedly a quarterback to can toss a fireball or cast strength buffs is handy.
Oh wait, that's Blood Bowl.
 
@Maximillian Baseball pitcher throwing a firebolt at 100 mph
 
@SPavel It's unfortunate that wizard colleges are steering Fighters towards paper classes like Introduction to Goblin Language instead of giving them a proper education.
 
@nitsua60 yeah. That answer led to edit storm as I was wrong at first. Then got new advice. Then got new info. Then took it further to help OP more. All on mobile too. My fingers are tired.
 
@DavidCoffron No worries. I just saw that you were actively editing and getting helpful comments so didn't want to wade into the edit-stream. Figured you'd get to it at some point =)
 
8:54 PM
@Yuuki Well, if student athlete schedules gave them enough rest at night to refresh spell slots, maybe they could take duskblade levels instead
Aside: the religious colleges would probably have really good teams, clerics don't need rest, only 15 minutes' prayer
Righteous might, divine power, storm of vengeance, hut hut hut!
 
So are you saying that Notre Dame would have a really good basketball team?
Shoot, I shouldn't have hedged.
 
@Yuuki No, the druids are the ones with hedges
 
Druids are clearly the hedgiest class.
 
@Rubiksmoose Circle of Twilight druids are the edgiest of the hedgiest.
 
But what about hedge wizards?
 
9:05 PM
@Yuuki hedge wizards are traditionally those who practiced magic informally. I think sorcerer (and maube warlock depending on the pact) is hedgier than druid. Druids are very formal in their practice (albeit not studied like wizards) in so far as they have specific spells they study and are fairly orderly in their behavior (they have there own language after all)
@ACuriousMind you beat me two it
 
I was making a joke on "edge" and "hedge" and the Circle of Twilight (which has a death and decay centric theme).
 
@Maximillian That's how I kept losing people from my 4e group.
@Yuuki First the badgers, then the hedgehogs. When are we solving this druid infestation problem?
 
@DavidCoffron Nitpick but how come you used "their" correctly and immediately followed it with "there"?
 
@Yuuki Shouldn't have hedged your bets on that joke
 
9:09 PM
@ACuriousMind I unfortunately got edged out of the room.
 
@Yuuki I hope you still have your bhedge to come back in.
 
9:21 PM
@Yuuki mobile. Just texting fast so i messed up
 
GSS has a sheep henge now.
Powers include flawless lying, putting people to sleep by counting, and being therapeutically huggable.
 
@BESW I kept parsing that as like Stonehenge.
 
 
I dont know how true this is but I read once that the word "henge" actually comes from stonehenge, not the other way around
 
@ACuriousMind i want a hedge wizard subclass now. We have many studious wizards (including a necromancer) and a couple battle wizards. Giff me my peasant mage
(A hedge knight might be interesting too)
 
9:27 PM
people always called it stonehenge and so that defined the word henge, and the origin is unknown
"Back-formation from Stonehenge, although it is not strictly a henge." Wiktionary agrees! I'm glad I was not misinformed
 
@DavidCoffron Pathfinder Witch?
 
@Yuuki Isn't Pathfinder Witch just 5e Warlock?
 
@DavidCoffron Not D&D, but TDE has a "Charlatan" full mage class which does exactly that, mostly focusing on illusions and small magic tricks. I love playing Charlatans because everyone underestimates them until they start using their illusions creatively
 
@GreySage In the sense that both have patrons, I guess.
 
@SirCinnamon In this context, however, "henge" is a Japanese word for an animal with shape-shifting powers.
 
9:31 PM
Like, demon summoning may be dangerous but an illusionary demon is almost as good in getting people to flee without any of the drawbacks!
 
But there's some clear mechanical differences because of the rest mechanic.
 
@BESW Coincidence? I think not! Stonehenge is a shapeshifter
 
@SirCinnamon Don't you mean "sheep shifter"?
...I'll show myself out :P
 
@ACuriousMind =.= i didnt actually
technically all shepherds are sheepshifters
2
 
9:39 PM
@SirCinnamon D:
 
@SirCinnamon Golf Clap. (I groaned, I did). :)
 
@BESW Boy thats quite a herd! There must be at least... 25, 26, 27.... 28........29.........zzzzzzzzzzzzz
 
@SirCinnamon It must be very hard to buy/sell sheep, because you can never quite know how many there are.
 
9:53 PM
Flooferdoofers.
 
Rel🐘:
The bergamasco shepherd.
 
Some kind of sentient mop?
 
A mop elemental
 
10:17 PM
hey there @Maximillian
 
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