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12:15 AM
@Kuba Hmm. It is true that I'm often manipulating the Printout styles. But even to know to do that (and much less how to do that efficiently) is probably power-user knowledge.
Also I had no idea the packed array system was documented: reference.wolfram.com/language/Developer/ref/ToPackedArray
 
 
9 hours later…
8:59 AM
Anyone around?
I don't have time to reinstall now so I just want to check if others have the same problem
For me ref/ShowGroupOpener is more up to date in 11.2 than in 11.3 :-/.
 
9:58 AM
There's always a last straw that will finally break your back. I'm sorry. I was foolish to bet on only one horse.
7
 
10:16 AM
@Szabolcs Sorry for stupid question but considering the amount of work you've put into IGraphM, have you thought about making a framework out of it, detached from Graph?
About the general problem, I feel similarly about FrontEnd. While it is not abandoned, the development was spread thinly on iOS, Cloud and Desktop Versions. With 99% of advances being about making Web FrontEnd usable and probably in updating osx to 64bit.
Even when they reach the stage of more or less same set of features/experience for all environments. It will clearly take couple of times longer to get any update to FE valid across envs.
 
 
3 hours later…
1:28 PM
@Szabolcs (very well written)
 
1:58 PM
@VitaliyKaurov what has happened to the content?
 
@Kuba I can see it...
Wolfram has abandoned the Graphs and Networks functionality (??) : community.wolfram.com/groups/-/m/t/1321057
 
@P.Fonseca I was able to read it but not anymore
 
(well I just added here the latest content)
 
So you broke it. Will probably be fine later, there were issues with delays etc after posting new answers. Ok, have to go cya
 
(that's me)
 
2:18 PM
@Szabolcs and Graph functionality is exactly a type of "package" I see no great problem making it open... (following my previous discussions)
@Szabolcs I don't know if you were foolish to bet on only one horse. Most production bets on only one horse, and unless we call most world production foolish...
I think that where we are all being foolish (and when I mean all, I include WRI), is on the lack of two way conversation.
For instance, nowadays we can see on live the decisions being taken on multiple aspects of the WL. Yet, something intermediate doesn't seem to exist, like discussion sessions on particular functionalities, voice or just chat based. Of course that this would only work with enough participation, but I guess that WRI knows perfectly well who are the mandatory intervenients for each topic (and facultative that should be incentivised to participate).
We might argue that forums and communities would be there to serve just that, but I think that they are kind of restructured, as unless there's some sort of premeditated planning on the topic, community seems to originate too much dispersion.
(I know that SW does listen to what Is going on on the chat during the CEOing sessions, but these have a specific agenda that is not know in advance to us, and that clearly has no extra time available for a high exchange)
I have a feeling that many open software communities have much more interaction between developers and users than what we experience "here". I'm not saying that WRI is not present on these community sites (SE and Community), but it doesn't look to be structured. On the community, for instance, the amount of posts that remain silent is, in my opinion, too much.
(restructured /. restructured -> unstructured)
There are a lot of techniques available for this type of expert/topic communication. Even SW sometimes uses them, when, for instance, with the Ask me anything sessions at Reddit.
It wouldn't be too difficult to organize such events (or anything else that could open discussion), even if just once a year for each functionality (I know that that means one per day or similar, but so what?...)
 
3:26 PM
I wonder where there's more development stability from the employee turnover rate point of view (just curious): on open / free developments, or on closed / commercial developments. A typical commercial company (although it depends a lot on local culture), is able to retain a person for 5 to 10 years (on average). We could imagine a lower stability on community driven developments, but is this true? Or do research and college teacher...
... positions compensate for student/intern more volatile interventions?
 
@P.Fonseca I'd argue it depends. Oftentimes people will just see something they enjoy, use it a bit, and add some bug fixes. I did this for psi4 but I'm in no way a Psi4 developer.
On the other hand for projects that catch fire there are grants and stipends available that are certainly more long term than it seems many tenures at WRI are.
And they're freer-reign, being not bound to SW.
 
 
2 hours later…
5:30 PM
@Kuba I get the same in 11.3.
 
6:27 PM
@ChrisK the same as in 11.2 or as my 11.3? :)
 
 
2 hours later…
8:32 PM
@Kuba pass me the URL
that you use
@Kuba can you hard-reload page? i cannot reproduce your issue
 
@VitaliyKaurov Wolfram Community periodically breaks for me. Also anytime I go there (e.g. via clicking a link to the site) if I've not been there in 5 minutes it gives me a blank "?login=true" page and I have to click the link again.
And often updates don't display for about 5-25 minutes after they occurred
LifeRay seems not to have tested their framework terribly rigorously
 
8:49 PM
@VitaliyKaurov it works now but thanks for asking.
 
9:15 PM
@Kuba, I'm not seeing the updated docs in 11.2, but they're not in 11.3 and should have been. Oops...this is my oversight. Fixing it now.
 
@Kuba For me (OSX) both 11.2 and 11.3 are the same and look like your 11.3.
 
9:30 PM
@JohnFultz ok, thanks. I may have a slight mess locally due to prereleases etc. I will tidy it up one day, that is why I asked on chat. Thanks for checking.
@JohnFultz Could you give a brief overview of HintStyles and what is a proper way to set ShowGroupOpener on a $FrontEnd level?
p.s. I thought you advertise againts All style :)
 
10:02 PM
@Kuba, yeah I just independently realized you might still have a prerelease installed. Re `StyleHints`, try something like `CurrentValue[$FrontEndSession, {StyleHints,
"GroupOpener"}] = "OutsideFrame"`. This is what the preferences dialog does (except on `$FrontEnd` rather than `$FrontEndSession`). I've been a bit loathe to advertise this because there are some inheritance issues that aren't 100% worked out, yet (but don't really cause problems at the current level of usage).
 
@JohnFultz I realized that: mathematica.stackexchange.com/q/171236/5478 :) but I wanted to know where are you heading with Hints and why it needed to introduce a disturbance to ShowGroupOpener inheritance.
Side question, there is no 'closer' for an inline 'opener', right?
 
10:43 PM
@Kuba, an inline closer is coming in the next version per popular request. The thinking was that it might be ugly/annoying to have closers everywhere, but the current plan is to only show closers on groups where you opened them with the openers. That plan may or may not survive the fire of testing.
@Kuba, the reason for using the StyleHints mechanism is that cell group openers is a place where stylesheets have definite opinions, and we don't want to subvert those opinions. OTOH asking people to edit stylesheets in place of using a preferences dialog isn't very friendly. So the StyleHints mechanism is a way of taking a global opinion about how things should be done and importing it into selective places in the stylesheet.
E.g., think about the times when you might have wanted to change something, but what you really wanted to do was to get 20 styles to obey your global setting while not messing up hundreds of styles you definitely didn't want to touch.
A clearer example would be with the "CodeFont" setting. Where you want "code-ish" styles to use the "CodeFont", while other styles maybe should have no opinion at all about fonts (like the "TraditionalForm" style), and should definitely not be inheriting some global setting of, e.g., FontFamily->"Source Code Pro".
All of these styles could have inherited from a common "CodeParent" style, but then you'd have to edit the stylesheet to change it. Whereas now, with StyleHints, you can make it be a global setting that's easily changed from one user's preferences to the next.
I think of this as kind of being the "y axis of stylesheets", where the x axis follows normal inheritance rules, but the y axis defines an orthogonal inheritance that you can use to cut across stylesheets in whatever way you choose. I believe old Java programmers would refer to this kind of cross-inheritance cutting as an "aspect".
That's a slightly abstract explanation...I don't know, maybe confusing. I know how I intend for this to work in the future, but I haven't really written it up well, yet.
 

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