The h Bar

1:11 AM

@G.Bergeron =D thx for looking at it! have been asking around in here for literally yrs and almost nobody )( is willing to look/ talk about it/ take it seriously. think it has some elements that tie in with newer theories eg Verlinde but would require further dev. have some further ideas & emailed the authors. it seems a major oversight that they dont consider light within their framework. agree it cant be very thorough so far but think it could be a "bridge" to something new and more thorough.

@bolbteppa maybe you, the (presumably) serious university scientist (of unknown credentials) in contrast, should email the (credible/ well-intentioned) authors to tell them why its "antiscience". or maybe youd consider that a waste of time.

Secret

3:08 AM

[Random worldbuilding]

Timeline Regional Misalignment Phenomenon

Lore:

Recently, there are observations of phenomena where description of events by various animate and inanimate observers/detectors do not agree. Causality in the affected region is either practically nonexistent or become very erratic,

Graphically speaking, we expect the worldlines of all observers wrt to each observer are related by a suitable continuous transformation. But what is happening now is there are some frames of references where worldlines not only became tangled with another, but break up and fuse in some complicated fashion. Some worldlines also became discontinuous, result in apparent time travel as seen by these observers, while some observer dismissed the occurrence of such

Example of affected phenomenon is when one observer reported lights in a room are on, but another said the lights are off. In some severely affected regions, spacetime ceased to have a nice structure as random objects in an area became stuck in one or two dimensional freedom despite its surrounding appeared to be just air and unobstructed

G. Bergeron

3:33 AM

@vzn Ok, so the goal of the paper is to construct a mathematical analogy between GR and continuum mechanics so that the computational methods of the later can be applied to the former.

@vzn Now, with respect to how this can be seen as ''new physics'', let's say the prognostic is poor.

@vzn First, my point about the linearization is touched by the author, but they claim there shouldn't be any problem whatsoever. I haven't thought about it more.

vzn

@G.Bergeron its suggesting that space is "not what we think it is". similarly to verlinde/ arguello. agreed it is not written in the language of physicists _per se.) think it is more than an analogy. (the correspondence is too throrough/ striking/ uncanny.) lets not forget einstein used/ relied heavily on analogies to construct GR in the 1st place.

G. Bergeron

@vzn Then, the big issue: in order to interpret this as new physics, one has to check at what happens to relativity. They kind of include the part of special relativity that concerns time dilation and such by positing that the density and elastic modulus
of the medium varies in such a way with deformation as to reproduce time dilation and the (apparent) constant speed of interactions.

vzn

3:48 AM

@G.Bergeron they seem not to have carried it that far but it seems to be just another POV on GR that is likely nearly equivalent to current theory in the nonrelativistic regime. yes my big question is how it relates to/ "affects" light propagation "speed". have you heard of "variable speed of light" theories, atomic clock time measurements wrt gravity, or the shapiro effect?

16

Q: Does light really travel more slowly near a massive body?

It is a routine problem for beginners in general relativity to calculate the coordinate velocity of light for the Schwarzschild metric. Starting from the metric: $$ ds^2 = -\left(1-\frac{r_s}{r}\right)c^2dt^2 + \frac{dr^2}{1-\frac{r_s}{r}} + d\Omega^2 $$ We use the fact that light travels on a ...

2 days ago, by vzn

> The parallel between Equations (3.9) and (3.11) confirms that gravitational waves are analogous to shear waves propagating in a solid material and that furthermore the speed of propagation, which is the speed of light c, is related to the shear modulus and density of the medium per c2 = μ/ρ. p18

G. Bergeron

@vzn Now, what happens when a change of reference frame is made? If you want the above explanation of the constant speed of light to hold, then that means that a change of frame implies a change of velocity with respect to the medium. In order to properly describe that, you need to model matter moving through the medium.

vzn

@G.Bergeron think you are starting to get some of the picture, think the math is maybe not too hard to work out for someone well versed in GR, and careful definition of terms, but it looks like a new groundbreaking pov on GR to me. it looks like "matter moving through the medium" is actually just space deformations but is not deformed as it "moves thru space". matter is concentrated space so to speak. it seems like the logical next step of their theory.

G. Bergeron

@vzn However, as they treat matter as inclusions in the medium, moving matter raises some questions. They then proceed to handwave something about the wave nature of matter and how waves can propagate through very rigid material and finish by saying all this is beyond the scope of the paper... This equating of this ''quantum wavelike nature of matter at small scale'' with the fact that waves traverses rigid medium rings of a blatant confusion about these phenomena!

vzn

@G.Bergeron they dont have the whole picture but think their ideas are naturally extended wrt matter as solitons in the space and maybe related to new theories about "madelung fluid", pilot wave hydrodynamics, etc. ie its the start of a research program, not the end of one...

what if matter moving through the medium is frictionless and causes no deformation of the matter. ie somewhat the way that current flowing in superconductors experiences no resistance... this is a key way in which it would diverge from classic theories of the ether (which it might be unfairly equated to by the uninformed or "unimaginative")...

G. Bergeron

4:05 AM

@vzn All in all, without the movement of matter (so we can connect to actual experimental results) one cannot see a good prospect. Do note I doubt this will be easy to establish the equivalence principle in this context. This is the crucial point. GR + SR are very nice in that they intermesh all these via the equality of gravitational mass and inertial mass.

vzn

@G.Bergeron agreed it would have to be shown to be almost )( completely consistent with known SR+GR to be plausible. but dont see a way to immediately disprove it...

G. Bergeron

@vzn A side comment: the fact that Einstein used something is not an argument at all.

vzn

@G.Bergeron analogies are a substantial/ valuable/ sometimes crucial element of bridging theories in paradigm shifts, its a "design pattern".

G. Bergeron

@vzn I'm not disproving anything. It's just that reproducing the equations of GR is not the hard part. The hard part is rather when you start interpreting those equation and try to tie everything with known observations. Fully reproducing relativity and how it is present in GR is the hard part.

@vzn Yes but that is more a comment on how humans work, not on what is true.

vzn

@G.Bergeron they have done some of the hard part, some of the remaining hard part (if not blocked) will require other contributions by them or others. but there is something (much? far?) deeper hinted/ evoked in the ideas.

@G.Bergeron lol "true"? humans determine what is "true" :P

G. Bergeron

4:10 AM

@vzn Be careful when happily mixing exotic (but serious) speculations from all around the place. It's not necessarily wrong per se, but it's very easy to loose grip on how constrained the problem is as all these theories have to intermesh

vzn

@G.Bergeron yes but on the other hand sometimes there is way too much compartmentalization in physics that can end up stymieing its progress. some applecarts will be overturned, so to speak, if GR + QM unification (or understanding of dark matter etc) is ever achieved.

G. Bergeron

For instance, as far as I know, anything Bohmian has not really been worked out in a relativistic context and so, I would be wary of starting to mingle such interpretations with a mechanical interpretation of GR.

@vzn On this, I agree.

@vzn I believe in absolute truth with respect to physics.

vzn

@G.Bergeron it has connections to bohmian QM but personally think bohmian model is provisional/ temporary somewhat like bohrs atomic orbits.

G. Bergeron

Otherwise I wouldn't do it.

vzn

@G.Bergeron ok so then carrying on the tradition of einstein yourself :) :P

G. Bergeron

4:14 AM

@vzn The problem with Bohmian interpretations for me are that they just introduce this all encompassing instantaneous interaction which seems to only push the difficulties further ahead.

vzn

> Had I known that we were not going to get rid of this damned quantum jumping, I never would have involved myself in this business! ---Schroedinger

@G.Bergeron the "instantaneous interaction" is not so mysterious its just "space deformation" wink :P

G. Bergeron

@vzn Maybe, but if you are referring to his thoughts on QM, then maybe not. Suppose QM is just the end story, then that constitutes an absolute truth about reality, irrespective of the non-existence of determinate values for measurements before they are done.

@vzn QM can easily be conceived as fully local.

vzn

@G.Bergeron am not questioning QM validity but agree with einstein that it is likely incomplete. think we will find out definitively in next few decades.

G. Bergeron

@vzn ok, but my point was only to specify what I meant by absolute truth

vzn

@G.Bergeron honestly, have the same motivation, wink

DanielSank

4:20 AM

Hi, everybody.

G. Bergeron

@vzn On another note, I might share some of that feeling, but be aware that Bell's theorem/contextuality places a very very strong constraint to what you can do.

@DanielSank hey

DanielSank

@G.Bergeron Yo, I don't think we've met.

G. Bergeron

@DanielSank yes

I just stopped coming for a while

DanielSank

Analog electronics, eh?

vzn

@G.Bergeron am a huge bell fan, think he pinpointed some of the key issues but think it will all turn out to be a massive red herring in retrospect. "not so complicated" classical systems can violate bell inequalities/ "locality", its a counterintuitive part of our universe/ classical probability still waiting to be articulated.

G. Bergeron

4:21 AM

I talked to you about the chili

@DanielSank :p

DanielSank

@G.Bergeron Oohhhhhhh yeah.

@vzn wat

0celo7

the communist vegan chili?

DanielSank

I would ask you to clarify that claim, sir.

G. Bergeron

@DanielSank And I read of your delights with noise

DanielSank

@0celo7 Yeah, the one that turns you into a Socialist.

@G.Bergeron Noise is indeed delightful.

0celo7

4:22 AM

sounds dangerous

G. Bergeron

@DanielSank It is a nice point you where touching upon, especially the two way interaction that noise implies.

vzn

@DanielSank have an experiment to prove it, just havent carried it out yet. :) anyway the pilot wave hydrodynamics experiments with 2slit diffraction are very close.

DanielSank

@G.Bergeron I do not recall any of that. You must have a good memory.

@vzn Ah, so it's one of those claims.

Swapnil Das

Hi. Could anyone recommend me a book on Electromagnetism having some really hard problems? (Advanced High school/ UG level)

0celo7

@DanielSank does vzn ever make other kinds of claims

DanielSank

4:24 AM

$$\text{close} \neq \text{cigar}$$

G. Bergeron

@DanielSank oh no it's something you wrote that I read, I don't remember where, though

vzn

@DanielSank its falsifiable but dont have any grad students/ budget lying around to carry it out :P

DanielSank

@vzn Would you be so kind as to explain it?

@G.Bergeron Oh I think I can guess...

I bet it was this

89

Q: Where is the flaw in this machine that decreases the entropy of a closed system?

I was thinking about a completely unrelated problem (Quantum Field Theory Peskin & Schroeder kind of unrelated!) when the diagram below sprang into my mind for no apparent reason. After some thinking, I can't figure out why it wouldn't work, other than the theoretical reason that it systematicall...

thermodynamics energy entropy

vzn

@DanielSank its just mainly an acoustic experiment even within reach of an undergraduate. honestly am thinking of carrying it out with lego mindstorms sometime :P

G. Bergeron

@vzn Oh you should be really really careful with that statement! Many have broken their teeth on such a claim.

DanielSank

4:25 AM

For f---'s sake, @vzn tell us the experiment/idea.

G. Bergeron

@DanielSank I think it is the one!

DanielSank

@G.Bergeron A fine question, to be sure.

vzn

@DanielSank was ready to outline it a long time ago with you but youre busy cleaning your qubits over there :P ... may blog on it sometime... would rather do so when someone with the energy to carry it out shows up... that might end up being me... thx for your ~~impatience~~ interest

DanielSank

@0celo7 why are you striving to carry forth Duffield's legacy? What legacy?

@vzn if you propose a not-ridiculous experiment that could show a violation of Bell's inequality in a classical system, you better believe I and a lot of others would stop cleaning our qubits long enough to try it.

0celo7

@DanielSank rigorous mathematics and mathematical physics

DanielSank

4:28 AM

@vzn you are obviously dodging the issue. I don't appreciate that.

vzn

@DanielSank lol you have a really idealistic attitude toward science as do many else in this room. science does not really work that way as we all really know.

G. Bergeron

@vzn Any existing classical ways of inducing contextuality requires instantaneous interaction at a distance. We do not know of any system that do that, so I don't see how you could conceive of a believable experiment that would.

DanielSank

@vzn I dislike this kind of dynamic where someone says "I can disprove all of physics" and then refuses to give any details. It has no place here. I will now exercise the "ignore" feature.

vzn

@G.Bergeron am aware the theory rules it out, but have also gone over that theory myself with a very )( fine tooth comb and found it to have some "loopholes". am willing to work with anyone who wants to actually carry it out. again, alas, there is probably only 1 real volunteer for that...

0celo7

@vzn getting ignored by Dan is a big deal

vzn

4:31 AM

Nov 26 '15 at 6:37, by vzn

@ViEsr @DanielSank just ran across A Locally Deterministic, Detector-Based Model of Quantum Measurement by La Cour. fits in with other stuff have been pursuing lately.

@0celo7 lol youre obviously not exactly into this stuff either, the difference is, he found it nec to announce/ declare it :P

0celo7

@Slereah what the hell is this link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-1-4612-2210-1

G. Bergeron

@vzn You get people impatient by phrasing like this because you are basically spitting on the work of hundreds of people... It is not necessarily impossible to exploits loopholes in Bell's theorem, but not without modifying something else and certainly not by leaving classical mechanics unchanged.

vzn

@G.Bergeron cmon calm down, no disrespect to existing work. am a huge admirer and all my writing reflects that. you cannot find it in my actual words, quite the contrary.

G. Bergeron

@DanielSank Is that an actual button?

0celo7

@G.Bergeron yes

I will tell you where it is if you promise I won't get hit by it

G. Bergeron

4:34 AM

@vzn Then it should be easy to point out the loophole.

vzn

@G.Bergeron La Cour/ Ott did so ~3yrs ago. its not simple. physics is not so simple. have an idea for what may be a very simple version of their work, but not directly based on it. nobody has replicated their findings yet apparently.

G. Bergeron

I myself, went through the theory with a fine-tooth comb as you said, and realized how constraining it is.

vzn

@G.Bergeron yes it is very constraining. decades of physicists did their homework very carefully so to speak... but also science is not fixed by the past...

G. Bergeron

4:47 AM

@vzn They use post-selection...

vzn

@G.Bergeron ok. (havent looked at it closely) now imagine that atoms are "post selection devices for measuring photons..."

DanielSank

@G.Bergeron Click on a user's name on the left side of the chat page. You'll see an ignore option.

It just makes messages from that user not show up.

vzn

gotta run/ crash, thx for the stimulating conversation, hope to revisit it later, can/ will respond in theory-salon at any time, it may be less constrained in some ways. bye!

DanielSank

@G.Bergeron Questioning established scientific knowledge is fine. That's not frustrating.

A scientist should question things.

It is frustrating to read through statements which are then found to be obviously vacuous.

G. Bergeron

@DanielSank They are vacuous because they side-step all the previous work

DanielSank

4:55 AM

@G.Bergeron They're vacuous because they weren't made in good faith.

G. Bergeron

@DanielSank As a scientist, your point is valid, but honestly, outside of that, in view of so many work-hours saying you can't say what you claim, one should obviously doubt the depth of their own knowledge too.

DanielSank

vzn claimed to have an idea for an experiment. I did what a good scientist should do: I encouraged him to share so we could talk about it. If there's a good new idea about Bell violations, I sure as heck wanna know about it!

vzn then dodged the issue with irrelevant statements about budget etc.

@G.Bergeron Sure.

G. Bergeron

@DanielSank This is the ideal response, yes. But I'd wager a simple description of what the loophole should be will be enough.

DanielSank

Maybe I'm not giving vzn enough credit. If he has a good idea and no money to do the experiment, I hope he'll at least write a theoretical proposal.

3

G. Bergeron

@DanielSank To his defense, he posted a paper, which I am reading now

DanielSank

4:58 AM

@G.Bergeron Yes, you'd think so.

@G.Bergeron Very good.

G. Bergeron

You know, he complained people where not reading a previous paper he wanted comments on that addresses a continuum mechanics construction of GR. I read it, thought about it and told my part on why this shouldn't be seen as a good potential way forward as it is, to be told that it's only the beginning and stuff is still being developped.

user8663905

Hello, I'm considering posting a question but I'm not sure if it's too broad or not. For a quick overview: it deals with massive bodies and roche limits and I want info on what we can know with precision and what we can't.

G. Bergeron

@DanielSank Then the main point I wanted to make, I ended up not doing. And that is, ''debunking'' a serious paper is no trivial matter and I had to focus on the question for a while. Then vzn directly suggested things about Bohmian hydrodynamics, magdelung fluid, etc. etc.

DanielSank

mm

Any falsifiable claims to be had?

G. Bergeron

@DanielSank At that point, the burden of work falls on him. I seems he underestimates the level of rigor needed to proceed with such evaluation of an idea. I do believe it falls partly on the originator of an idea to make it somewhat palatable to others.

@DanielSank No the paper is presented as a mathematical analogy between GR and continuum mechanics with the goal of enabling the computational methods of one in the other

@DanielSank He seems to want to read more from the paper, at which point I addressed the difficulty of implementing SR with this approach.

@DanielSank And basically, they (the classical QM thingy) make it work using post-selection.

John Rennie

5:07 AM

@DanielSank @G.Bergeron after several years I'm still not sure if vzn is just a troll or if he's genuine but incapable of normal social interactions. What I would say is that I have never seen a debate with him come to any useful conclusion. As a general rule he is best ignored.

5

Secret

This chat room is getting as unstable as whatever is happening in Syria right now. I think WWIII will begin very soon

G. Bergeron

@JohnRennie Maybe, but it is often the case with well-intentioned non-experts to not understand the community's disinterest with their ideas. I think this disinterest comes about because these non-experts underestimate the work required for the serious evaluation of those ideas.

2

Secret

The question is then: what attitude should we have when WWIII begins

We knew WWIII already begin in some form in cyberspace as evidence by all that hacking and economic sanction and etc. between China, Russia and the US, but for now, the physical world had not become a battlefield just yet

But whatever is happening right now in Washington is very worrying

G. Bergeron

@DanielSank For instance, in the case of the classical QM thing, I have to go through all the non-conventional formalism, derivations, etc. only to realize that they essentially induce supraluminal communication by the use of a form of post-selection inherent to measurements.

Anyone has a meal idea?

DanielSank

@G.Bergeron Which meal?

G. Bergeron

5:21 AM

@DanielSank It's 1 AM here... So like super

I have a whole organic chicken which I will cut up soon, but I lack imagination now

I don't have tofu, but I do have matane shrimp's.... hmm

I think I'll go towards a stirfry with broccoli

John Rennie

@G.Bergeron I am not convinced vzn is sincere. He has come into the chat room with news of amazing experiments that challenge conventional thinking more times than I have count.

4

G. Bergeron

@JohnRennie You've been here for longer and more often than me, so fair enough. Although my real world experiences point more towards sincerity but lack of skills/understanding of the state of the art.

Ok I'm off to cook and do chores. Have a good one!

G. Bergeron

6:39 AM

It ended up being a shrimp pad thai! Miam!

Balarka Sen

7:16 AM

@0celo7 math.stackexchange.com/questions/2737938/…

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