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12:10 AM
@hftf This forum is for anyone on the site who wants to hang out here. The content varies as a function of the participants. As with many groups that involve 'regulars' it's not surprising that there are some running jokes (pineapple pizza, @PauloCereda 's non-existent thesis, and yes, ducks.) But interspersed with that is discussion among three of the LaTeX Team members about TeX, discussion from time to time about music, mathematics, linguistics, and academia, among others.
People also drop by with small questions that people here are happy to answer, or if they're not so small, point to relevant questions on the site, or suggest a new question be asked.
As for being attacked, I see absolutely no messages here that attack you, and as @DavidCarlisle said, there is a lot of sympathy among some of us for calming down the duck hysteria (and I think in fact this is being listened to). Of course there's not much we can do if you feel attacked, other than to say it certainly isn't intentional.
12:33 AM
@samcarter -- oh, i absolutely do -- that's why i made the suggestion. the only problem is that i don't think that it fits any of the present categories;it either needs a new one, or one of the existing ones could be renamed and enlarged.
4 hours later…
4:54 AM
@DavidCarlisle Yes, the article talks about the fake comments on restaurants on the internet :)
2 hours later…
6:41 AM
So adjustbox v1.1 made it now to CTAN.
1 hour later…
8:00 AM
user image
@PauloCereda @egreg @barbarabeeton ^^
8:45 AM
@hftf As noted by @AlanMunn, the chat is a mix of 'fun' and technical stuff: one sees the same across the StackExchange network
@hftf If anyone feels they are attacked anywhere in chat, flagging the posts is the best plan. Unlike on the main site, chat flags are visible to all moderators (to allow a quick response), so you should get action and quite possibly an independent viewpoint
@hftf On content, you'll perhaps notice that some 'serious' topics (often LaTeX kernel/expl3 come up), as several of the regulars are significant contributors or testers for key packages.
@hftf On the 'fun', I think everyone needs to bear in mind that there are people here beyond the 'regulars', and that means it has to be in moderation
9:42 AM
@JosephWright speaking of which hopefully we can ride out the t2 issue (an alternative would be to preload t2enc.dfu at the format time, it's not as if there isn't enough macro space these days. I really don't want to do PL3 though
@DavidCarlisle Haven't seen the T2 issue, much less significant than UTF-8 stuff
@JosephWright well it it utf8 again, texlive list: mathtext.sty (from 1999) redefining nfsss internals and now not being over-ridden as utf8.def isn't loaded later to fix it.... so the cyrillic utf-8 definitions are no longer loaded....
@DavidCarlisle I'd seen that: what does mathtext even do ...
@DavidCarlisle Can't mathtext do whatever it is trying to do without overloading the internals?
@JosephWright it chooses the other side in a discussion with Frank:-) makes inputenc characters work in text and math (specifically, but not just, so Russians can use Russian in math)
9:56 AM
@DavidCarlisle Ah right
@DavidCarlisle That can be fixed I think after the freeze: yes it's a non-trivial set of people, but it's not such a big set that we have to act immediately
@JosephWright that was my thought (or they may even be able to rush out a mathtext.sty today, I don't know. It's not been touched since 1999 so there may not be a stable ctan distribution build environment anywhere:-)
@DavidCarlisle I suspect this is one that's more tricky to fix at our end beyond saying 'use latexrelease'
11:00 AM
@UlrikeFischer I'll keep that really helpful and relevant advice in mind, thanks.
@AlanMunn @JosephWright Thanks for those explanations. I'm going to duck out for the day now.
1 hour later…
12:09 PM
That was quick: latex 2018-04-1 PL2 already arrived via tlmgr
1:02 PM
@UlrikeFischer the new latex is in miktex already?
A: ! LaTeX Error: Command \counterwithout already defined

David CarlisleFor now, you can do \documentclass{article} \let\counterwithout\relax \let\counterwithin\relax \usepackage{chngcntr} \begin{document} \end{document} chngcntr needs a small update (which was planned but the current maintainer is possibly distracted at present)

@JosephWright Will seems to be the maintainer, although it's not in github I think
@ChristianHupfer I'll see if I can contact Will
@DavidCarlisle I think Will is set as the maintainer of most of Peter Wilsons non-memoir stuff.
@daleif yes but Will is er busy
@DavidCarlisle I know.
@daleif :-)
1:19 PM
@DavidCarlisle I just came home. Will check asap.
@DavidCarlisle I see LaTeX2e <2018-04-01> (this is on a pc with miktex next, I will have to check the normal miktex too later).
@UlrikeFischer thanks hopefully that will update to patch level 2 soon...
2:00 PM
@yo' oooh
@DavidCarlisle We are having fun, aren't we
@DavidCarlisle Don't you miss the days of a five-year-plus release cycle :)
Wait until the next expl3 update ...
@JosephWright yes
... don't really worry: mainly sticking to our own internal rules!
@DavidCarlisle :)
@DavidCarlisle Probably this is all my fault
@JosephWright oh no
@JosephWright: can I blame you for my thesis too? :)
@JosephWright If Will is off line I wonder if we should risk making a ctan upload anyway under latex-team address and say Will agrees....
@PauloCereda definitely
2:03 PM
@DavidCarlisle ooh
@DavidCarlisle Probably should
@DavidCarlisle You seem to have other things in your mind. The correct answer would have been "which thesis?".
@egreg -- i disagree with this being a duplicate, and have left a comment there.
@UlrikeFischer "blame for lack of thesis" was what I had in mind
@DavidCarlisle you are mean
@UlrikeFischer you are not mean :)
2:05 PM
Jun 29 '17 at 16:15, by Paulo Cereda
@DavidCarlisle you are not mean :)
@DavidCarlisle oh
The style says "It is \provided here as a convenience to the user, and with
David Carlisle's permission." so I think Will will not complain if you change it ;-)
@UlrikeFischer that's removefromreset but that one is OK as it uses providecommand there, it is the rest of the package, that uses \newcommand that gives errors.
@DavidCarlisle Stretch the permission a bit ;-)
I have permission from my advisor to print a certain document
2:14 PM
@PauloCereda Oooh
@PauloCereda arara 4 manual?
@DavidCarlisle oh no
Jun 29 '17 at 16:15, by Paulo Cereda
@DavidCarlisle you are not mean :)
@DavidCarlisle you are... oh wait
@DavidCarlisle: let me try the backup plan
@AlanMunn you are mean
Aug 16 '17 at 19:51, by Paulo Cereda
@AlanMunn: you are not mean. :)
2:18 PM
@DavidCarlisle oh
@barbarabeeton Sorry, I disagree with your disagreement. ;-)
@PauloCereda Should I compose a praeludium over this idea? :D (I would probably not be the first one to do so...)
@PauloCereda Oi. You need to review the 'use' vs. 'mention' distinction.
@egreg -- okay, but do you agree with the suggestion i made about the symbol?
@barbarabeeton Well, that appears to be a symbol, but not used in math mode. Quite ambiguous.
2:27 PM
@yo' do it :)
@AlanMunn oh no
@AlanMunn <3
@PauloCereda I'll see what I can do :)
@yo' looking forward to seeing the result. :)
@egreg -- well, he says he's putting it in his glossary, so it logically is a symbol. i've seen a triple vertical used both as a binary relation and paired as delimiters; it was requested for use here many years ago, before the comprehensive symbols list existed. the fact that the author doesn't mention putting it between $...$ is most likely a newbie's oversight; he gives its meaning as a "composition operator".
@PauloCereda I don't have any of those “you are not mean” thingies addressed to me. It's not fair. What do I do if I am mean to you, and need this to prove I'm not?
@HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh hold on
@HaraldHanche-Olsen: you are not mean :)
Let's test it
@HaraldHanche-Olsen: you are mean
2:40 PM
31 secs ago, by Paulo Cereda
@HaraldHanche-Olsen: you are not mean :)
@HaraldHanche-Olsen oh
@PauloCereda thank you. I was just about to complain about the lack of a smiley, but all is well now.
@HaraldHanche-Olsen we ducks are very efficient
@HaraldHanche-Olsen you get smilies on "not mean" because he does not mean it, and you don't get smilies on "mean" because he does mean it.
2:42 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Neither do I, but I'm never mean towards people, with one exception.
@DavidCarlisle :)
@DavidCarlisle Did I mean that, or not?
Dec 21 '17 at 13:13, by Paulo Cereda
@egreg you are mean
@egreg you are not mean :)
@DavidCarlisle ooh
@DavidCarlisle That's not the exception. :-D
@egreg It's the exception that proves the statement false, though.
2:45 PM
@AlanMunn ooh complex logical paradoxes
@AlanMunn It was a false positive, due to a reference to a mysterious thesis that lives in some limbo.
@AlanMunn Platonic world of ideas, perhaps.
@egreg Me, I am always mean to people, except when I'm not.
@egreg which definitely exists
@HaraldHanche-Olsen 50% the time I am right, I am 100% not wrong. :)
We ducks are very good with paradoxes
@egreg I think what you meant was you're only mean to non-people (like ducks) and no people except one.
I just quack in despair for a bit then focus my attention on eating cookies
@AlanMunn and that, kids, is how the linguist saved the day. :)
Speaking of which, I need biscuits
2:49 PM
@PauloCereda Did you say cookies?
@egreg ooh
@PauloCereda it will take some weeks/months, remember I'm not a professional and I don't have much (any) free time :-)
@yo' <3
2 hours later…
5:02 PM
@JosephWright regarding the setup of property lists in l3keys:
\cs_new_protected:Nn \__keys_setup_prop_key:nNn
    \prop_if_exist:NF #2 { \prop_new:N #2 }
    \__keys_cmd_set:nx { \l_keys_path_tl }
        \exp_not:c { prop_ #1 put:Nnn }
        \exp_not:n { #2 { #3 } {##1} }
\cs_generate_variant:Nn \__keys_setup_prop_key:nNn { nNV }
\cs_new_protected:cpn { \c__keys_props_root_tl .prop_put:Nn } #1
  { \__keys_setup_prop_key:nNn {} #1 }
\cs_new_protected:cpn { \c__keys_props_root_tl .prop_gput:Nn } #1
  { \__keys_setup_prop_key:nNn {g} #1 }
5:23 PM
But does the UTF-8 update to LaTeX mean that \usepackage[utf8]{inputenc} is no more needed?
@CarLaTeX do all engines (except those which already have) get UTF-8 support?
@CarLaTeX yes.
@CarLaTeX It is essentially preloaded, but one can still load inputenc with a different option.
@CarLaTeX The assumption is that new documents are UTF-8. One should tell it to Richard Koch, however. :-( He still sets Latin-1 as default for TeXShop.
@egreg @UlrikeFischer Thank you! @Skillmon ???
@CarLaTeX I think I misunderstood you. Thought you meant that the engines get UTF-8 support by default. But I guess you mean that the LaTeX kernel includes inputenc now if not run in LuaTeX or XeTeX.
5:56 PM
Hello all. I am a bit in trouble with a LaTeX document at work. My LaTeX Fu is too little. It's about KOMA and paracol package. I guess that they seem to be incompatible regarding the feature I use. I would be grateful if one of you guys could address my problem: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/425632
@Skillmon Yes, you know I'm not an expert, my terms were not the correct ones, I mislead you, sorry :):):)
@CarLaTeX no your message was fine. It's totally my fault. And I'm no TeXpert either, my terms tend to be wrong, too.
Retagging spree:
Not sure that creating a tag without any description and tagging scores of questions is the best.
@egreg The tag descriptions were waiting for review.
6:22 PM
Hello, gamedev mod here. We had this question today which appears to be more about LaTeX/TeX than gamedev. Is it worth to migrate it?
@Skillmon You're a gentleman :):):)
@AlexandreVaillancourt I suppose so it's certainly on topic here (but not that good a question:-)
@DavidCarlisle I think we have that question already covered and answered...
@DavidCarlisle Hmm, well I would not like to migrate trash :P
Q: How to create a frame for tikzpicture?

User505I have a figure structured as: \documentclass{article} \usepackage[utf8]{inputenc} \usepackage{tikz} \usetikzlibrary{fit, backgrounds, matrix, arrows.meta} \tikzset{ startstop/.style={ rectangle, rounded corners, minimum width=2cm, minimum height=1.5cm,text centered, dr...

6:25 PM
@Skillmon almost certainly but if it comes here and then gets closed with a link to a duplicate the OP is better served than if it is just closed there as off topic surelt
@AlexandreVaillancourt It looks like this question
@DavidCarlisle At least the first lines of code match
@DavidCarlisle I think this is the same question with the exact same contents. Don't know how it got there, but here it is closed immediately as an exact duplicate.
@Skillmon Thanks a lot, I'll not migrate the question and refer the user to that question, thanks a lot!
@DavidCarlisle the funny thing is, that the question was asked 2 days ago on TeX.SX and only 13 hours ago on Gamedev.SX
@AlexandreVaillancourt agreed:-)
Ok, thanks all for helping me with this :)
6:43 PM
@Dr.ManuelKuehner I have to admit that I have no idea what is happening in your problem and I'll stop looking at it for now. I hope that the KOMA-gurus on TeX.SX take a look at it (@esdd or @Schweinebacke perhaps)
7:03 PM
@Skillmon Still, thanks for the suggestion. I will try it tomorrow in the "big" document.
7:41 PM
@Skillmon (@Dr.ManuelKuehner) always helps to insert \zzz :-)
1 hour later…
8:56 PM
@djnavas According to an esteemed community member, it would be much easier if everybody sticked to Greenwich time. ;-) — egreg 26 mins ago
Shaky bus was less shakier today... Deplorable.
9:18 PM
@egreg esteemed
@DavidCarlisle Can you exclude it's used in the same fashion as barristers do when they call their opponent “my esteemed colleague“?
@PauloCereda Can you figure out the number of typos @DavidCarlisle would make while typing on the shaky bus?
@PauloCereda It's possibly an NP-complete problem.
1 hour later…
10:47 PM
@egreg I'll email him to remind him. (Actually I think TeXShop default is MacRoman not Latin1.)
@AlanMunn Oh, yes. Even worse!

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